Thoughts on this Math Plan?

[LAmom]

Throwing this out for some advice.  I'm having trouble deciding to just stick with Math Mammoth.  I have had so many ups and downs with my dd and MM.  My dd hates her math and I am ready to switch.  But, I don't want to put her behind or mess up the plan to do pre-alegebra in 7th grade.  Part of it is she does need more review and I know that is on me, not the curriculum.  

 

Here are some ideas:

 

Finish this year with MM5B.

6th grade:  Switch to Singapore 5A/5B (if that is where she tests) 

7th grade:  Switch to Saxon 8/7 (pre-algebra) or some other pre-algebra.  I don't think AOPS pre-alegebra will work for her but don't really know.

8th:  Saxon Alegebra 1

 

OR

 

Finish year with MM5B

6th grade:  Switch to Saxon 7/6 (if that is where she tests)

7th grade:  same as above

 

OR

just stick with Math Mammoth and realize she will probably just hate math no matter what!  I just don't know what route will work best for her because I don't know if spiral or mastery is best or conceptual vs whatever Saxon is considered.  

 

 

[MiMi 4under3]

If review is what your DD lacks, then switch to Saxon asap.

[Gil]

I am far, far, far from being an expert in anything, but I have to ask: Why is prealgebra in 7th so important? Trying to make that your ultimate goal could be a part of the problem/anxiety that you feel or could be causing a little of the trouble in how you go about this whole thing.

 

My boys are only a little ahead of you now, and I am not an expert or anything. Take everything with a grain of salt.

I have been intentionally mixing in prealgebra type stuff for the last couple of years. At the rate that they are going and how they are developing, when they finish 6th grade, they really wont need a separate prealgebra course. They will need to work more exercises that will allow them to stretch themselves in problem solving, mental endurance, mathematical stamina, more exposure type stuff. But just "Prealgebra"? No.

 

Is it possible for you to sort of start blending in prealgebra stuff now and just mix it in in 5th and 6th grade? If she is capable, I would start mixing in some prealgebra stuff right now and continue next year alongside 6th grade math and probably do some sort of accelerated runthrough PreAlgebra in the summer after 6th to see how much of "prealgebra" she actually needs when the time comes.

 

For what it is worth: we love math, and we love Math Mammoth. The boys talk about Maria Miller the way some kids talk about pop stars--what she said or thinks about math, how they want to meet her...Its a little embarrassing! Anyway, we use MM and have had a load of success with it. There have been times when the boys need more drill/review and I just print a ton of worksheets offline.

 

We have gone through times when we have done at least some blatant drill every day for a month (or three) to really automate or maintain something.

If your kid struggles with math, then gearing all of your plans toward achieving some goals based on something too arbitrary may only serve to bring stress for you and for them.

 

The boys set their own pace for math. I actively encourage it, I love to see them working on something and we have a pretty strong family-culture that praises hard work/persistence, so they are kind of groomed for that, but still. I don't think I could say "I want you to get to algebra by X grade" and work backwards unless the kids could actually be bothered to care. However, because they have said "We want Algebra by X grade" we can (and do) push to get there. If they were struggling to meet their goal, I would probably have to say something/step in.

[LAmom]

Thanks for your input Gil. I just recently decided that pre-algebra in 7th is an aim. I haven't stressed about that or even talk to dd about it. MM has been so frustrating for DD and she loathes it. She may hate all math curricula and I've thought about that; therefore, have not jumped ship years ago! She will be starting fractions soon. We will see how that goes. I do prefer pre-algebra in 7th and that is the goal with MM from my understanding. That is what follows MM 6, right? Also, CA standards for high school/ colleges are different I thought. Anyways, I'm just wondering if she would do better with a change. I've been cautious to change because programs don't line up well and she'd either miss stuff or be pushed back.

[EndOfOrdinary]

If you switch, I'd switch only once. Just like you said above, programs don't line up well. When tutoring kids in math, the biggest hurdle for many was the sheer number of programs they had had. So many gaps. So many times of having to just start to get used to one and then switching.

 

The jump for many programs is between pre-a and elementary. It requires a different certification for teachers and thus the programs often switch writer's in this spot. It is a good place to transition.

 

AoPS is not for every kid. Do not spend your money on it if you are not wanting to make a fairly significant commitment. Not only does it not line up well with others, the approach is completely different. It's great, just more of a long term program if that makes sense. However, it can be a fun supplement to another spine.

[Gil]

Thanks for your input Gil. I just recently decided that pre-algebra in 7th is an aim. I haven't stressed about that or even talk to dd about it. MM has been so frustrating for DD and she loathes it. She may hate all math curricula and I've thought about that; therefore, have not jumped ship years ago! She will be starting fractions soon. We will see how that goes. I do prefer pre-algebra in 7th and that is the goal with MM from my understanding. That is what follows MM 6, right? Also, CA standards for high school/ colleges are different I thought. Anyways, I'm just wondering if she would do better with a change. I've been cautious to change because programs don't line up well and she'd either miss stuff or be pushed back.

Well, is there anything you can do to change how you use MM?

Buddy, my oldest, can just plow right through. Pal, my youngest, sometimes skips half the problems in 2 or 3 sections, then goes back and does them later.

Each boy is doing all of the problems, but not always in one sitting/day.

 

I know what you mean about not wanting to jump ship/change programs. We have been doing MM since the beginning, but it is rarely the boys first exposure to a concept. I have always taught them math concepts freestyle ahead of the work-text. They use Math Mammoth to go more in depth and do more practice to really get something down. We have also used Keys to...to get the execution of algorithms fluid and continue to use it for extra practice.

 

I would be tempted, very, very tempted to try and finish MM up through MM6, especially since we are so close and it is working. Even if she doesn't like it, if it is working I would be tempted to dig in. Can you alter the way you are doing it so that you are completing the pages in waves (maybe touching on 3 lessons a week, but only completing 1/2 the problems in each, then going back and gradually doing those problems while doing 2 new lessons the next week) it might help with long term retention/review.

 

What kind of review do you think she needs anyway? Cumulative, gradual review or daily math fact fluency or something in between?

 

We do reviews that consist of everything from definitions/concepts/key words to fact practice. So I might quiz the boys orally and say any or all of the following:

How would you solve this problem: Tom is making a garden and only has 35 sq. feet to work with in his yard but he wants to plant 5 different vegetables. How many feet does he have for each vegetable? DO NOT GIVE ME A NUMBER (They might say something like "you could multiply/divide or draw a picture and break up the area")

Or what does it mean to multiply? (they will give me their understanding/explanation of it)

or I might say What are the factors of 8?

Or I might say, what are some of the key words that clue you in to use subtraction in a real life situation? (they will say things like: how many more, difference, subtract, minus, take away, decrease..."

Or I might ask them: when would you want to add to solve a problem? (and they will say things like "when you want to find a total, when you have multiple groups that need to be combined...")

What is a composite number? (a number that has factors besides 1 and itself/ a number that is NOT prime)

What do you call a number that only has 1 and itself as a factor? (prime)

give me the first 12 multiples of 7 (7, 14, 21, 28...)

How can you tell if a number is divisible by 2? (the digit in the 1s place is 0 or even.)

Is  3+ 4+ 7 the same as 7 + 4+ 2 +1  and why? (Yes, because real numbers are associative and commutative--the order doesn't matter and you just broke up the 3!)

What is a triangular number? (a number whose quantity can be made into an equilateral triangle)

What does it mean to be commutative? (that the order doesn't matter)

Can you think of something in real life that is commutative? (Putting on your L and R socks is commutative! But putting on your pants and underwear isn't!)

 

 

All of those are scenarios that I consider review and we do most of that type of stuff orally and we usually do it every day. We can get through several of those in about 5 minutes so we can cover a lot of ground relatively quickly.

I might also look at a random worksheet of +,-,*,/ problems and call them out and let the boys shout out their answers. We can usually get through a couple hundred problems like that as it turns into a race between them to get the answer first. (It sounds like a combo of a beehive and an auction house...2+2,6/3,86/2...)

[fourisenough]

Well, is there anything you can do to change how you use MM?

Buddy, my oldest, can just plow right through. Pal, my youngest, sometimes skips half the problems in 2 or 3 sections, then goes back and does them later.

Each boy is doing all of the problems, but not always in one sitting/day.

 

I know what you mean about not wanting to jump ship/change programs. We have been doing MM since the beginning, but it is rarely the boys first exposure to a concept. I have always taught them math concepts freestyle ahead of the work-text. They use Math Mammoth to go more in depth and do more practice to really get something down. We have also used Keys to...to get the execution of algorithms fluid and continue to use it for extra practice.

 

I would be tempted, very, very tempted to try and finish MM up through MM6, especially since we are so close and it is working. Even if she doesn't like it, if it is working I would be tempted to dig in. Can you alter the way you are doing it so that you are completing the pages in waves (maybe touching on 3 lessons a week, but only completing 1/2 the problems in each, then going back and gradually doing those problems while doing 2 new lessons the next week) it might help with long term retention/review.

 

What kind of review do you think she needs anyway? Cumulative, gradual review or daily math fact fluency or something in between?

 

We do reviews that consist of everything from definitions/concepts/key words to fact practice. So I might quiz the boys orally and say any or all of the following:

How would you solve this problem: Tom is making a garden and only has 35 sq. feet to work with in his yard but he wants to plant 5 different vegetables. How many feet does he have for each vegetable? DO NOT GIVE ME A NUMBER (They might say something like "you could multiply/divide or draw a picture and break up the area")

Or what does it mean to multiply? (they will give me their understanding/explanation of it)

or I might say What are the factors of 8?

Or I might say, what are some of the key words that clue you in to use subtraction in a real life situation? (they will say things like: how many more, difference, subtract, minus, take away, decrease..."

Or I might ask them: when would you want to add to solve a problem? (and they will say things like "when you want to find a total, when you have multiple groups that need to be combined...")

What is a composite number? (a number that has factors besides 1 and itself/ a number that is NOT prime)

What do you call a number that only has 1 and itself as a factor? (prime)

give me the first 12 multiples of 7 (7, 14, 21, 28...)

How can you tell if a number is divisible by 2? (the digit in the 1s place is 0 or even.)

Is 3+ 4+ 7 the same as 7 + 4+ 2 +1 and why? (Yes, because real numbers are associative and commutative--the order doesn't matter and you just broke up the 3!)

What is a triangular number? (a number whose quantity can be made into an equilateral triangle)

What does it mean to be commutative? (that the order doesn't matter)

Can you think of something in real life that is commutative? (Putting on your L and R socks is commutative! But putting on your pants and underwear isn't!)

 

 

All of those are scenarios that I consider review and we do most of that type of stuff orally and we usually do it every day. We can get through several of those in about 5 minutes so we can cover a lot of ground relatively quickly.

I might also look at a random worksheet of +,-,*,/ problems and call them out and let the boys shout out their answers. We can usually get through a couple hundred problems like that as it turns into a race between them to get the answer first. (It sounds like a combo of a beehive and an auction house...2+2,6/3,86/2...)

I hate to get off-topic, but, Gil, I adore that style of mental math drill/oral math review! I'd like to think I'm sharp enough to pull that off, off the top of my head, but usually I'm distracted with a million things. Any idea if a ready-made source for such a thing exists?

[Gil]

I hate to get off-topic, but, Gil, I adore that style of mental math drill/oral math review! I'd like to think I'm sharp enough to pull that off, off the top of my head, but usually I'm distracted with a million things. Any idea if a ready-made source for such a thing exists?

Some where on my hard-drive is a file of a couple hundred of these types of questions on a roughly K-5 level.

When I find it, I will PM it to you. If you don't here from me in by the 2nd week of May, please email me to remind me.

My finals are over May 2nd, so I should be able to get it for you by May 5th. Just REMIND.ME...

[Carrousel]

Gil, can I pester you to add me to your distribution list, please? I'm teaching two rowdy boys also and would appreciate it! Good luck on finals!

[LAmom]

I do not have that creativity or like of math enough to ask my own questions! That's great you do! I need more hand holding. I will see what I can change up today. But I feel like 3 years of frustration with MM, I should give up!

[fourisenough]

Some where on my hard-drive is a file of a couple hundred of these types of questions on a roughly K-5 level.

When I find it, I will PM it to you. If you don't here from me in by the 2nd week of May, please email me to remind me.

My finals are over May 2nd, so I should be able to get it for you by May 5th. Just REMIND.ME...

Good luck with your exams! I'll remind you if I don't hear from you. Thanks in advance!

[deerforest]

Do you do any supplemental math? Admittedly, DD does not like MM, but she doesn't like most math curricula so I've whipped together my own things over the years, but at different times we have used bits of Right Start, MM, Singapore, Beast Academy, Hands on Equations, Zaccaro, Kitchen Table Math, Key to...series, Danica McKellar, Vi Hart, Khan Academy, Education Unboxed, different word problem sets from Prufrock (Amusement Park Math, Camp Fraction), tons of resources from livingmath.net etc....

 

My point isn't to overwhelm you, but it's just to suggest that perhaps changing your basic math spine isn't the problem. Maybe you just need to find a way to really pull her into math and do something fun and supplementary for a bit.

[Gil]

Just to be clear, the notes that I have were some that I made up gradually over time. The list was never meant to be published/shared and really I started it to A--help me keep track of what they could and could not do and B--help me plan ahead of what I wanted them to be able to do.

 

The list grew as they did and their may be a few scenarios that are not fully fleshed out because it is part diary/part lesson plan/part over-tired, highly caffeinated Gil ramblings. Anyone who wants to get a copy, just let me know and when I dig it out, I'll distribute it to everyone.

I hate to get off-topic, but, Gil, I adore that style of mental math drill/oral math review! I'd like to think I'm sharp enough to pull that off, off the top of my head, but usually I'm distracted with a million things. They are definitely not off the top of my head, lol. I plan ahead of the boys anywhere from a single topic to multiple topics at a time. I haven't updated the list in a while simply because I've gotten good at altering extending the prompts we've been building up to for years.

 

 

Gil, can I pester you to add me to your distribution list, please? I'm teaching two rowdy boys also and would appreciate it! Good luck on finals!

It isn't a pestering. If I remember to come back and check this thread (I'm really horrible about following up with the msg boards!) then I will be happy to share it with anyone who wants a copy. I know a little something about teaching two darling little hell raisers disguised as rowdy boys.

 

 

I do not have that creativity or like of math enough to ask my own questions! That's great you do! I need more hand holding. I will see what I can change up today. But I feel like 3 years of frustration with MM, I should give up!

No problem, everyone has their own 'niche'! If you think that it may be helpful and provide the scaffolding (hand-holding) to be more comfortable maybe I can mesh together my lesson plans + oral review database + scope and sequence into some sort of...pamphlet or something. It could make a neat project if you are interested.

 

[Amy M]

I am interested in your document as well, Gil, thanks!

[Pen]

Some where on my hard-drive is a file of a couple hundred of these types of questions on a roughly K-5 level.

When I find it, I will PM it to you. If you don't here from me in by the 2nd week of May, please email me to remind me.

My finals are over May 2nd, so I should be able to get it for you by May 5th. Just REMIND.ME...

 

 

PM it to me too please!

[LAmom]

Any thoughts on either of my plans? MM 5b to Saxon 7/6 or to Singapore 5? I'll add in some if Gil's review. ;). But...,!! I don't know.

[vaquitita]

Nm

Edited December 13, 2015 by vaquitita

[arcara]

If you're think that Saxon is what you want long term then I don't see the point in doing Singapore in between. Make sure you take the Saxon placement test to find out which book she should be in. Saxon is a unique program that most people either love or hate. Perhaps it would be good to give it a try now and see if she's one who loves it. You always have MM to go back to if it doesn't work out. Try to find it used so that if it doesn't work for her, then you can resell it and not lose much money.

 

I hope you find something that works!

[staceyobu]

We did MM 1 and 2.  We switched to Saxon this year and it has been wonderful.  My DD will kiss the math book.  I think it is complete overkill for some kids, but my oldest really needs to do every. single. problem to grasp concepts.  She was doing basic addition on her fingers at the start of this year.  She is now doing well with multiplication and division.  If your plan is to do Saxon anyways, I would go to it sooner rather than later.

[Pen]

If you think Saxon might be a better fit for her, I'd try that this summer, and see how it goes. Or Singapore if you think that would be... maybe they have Saxon at your local library (they do here, some levels) enough for her to get an idea... and you could at least let her look at Singapore samples pages online. They are all very different programs. It may be that she would just hate any math, but it also may be that something would be a much better/happier fit for her.

 

We do math year round, to help retention.

[kiwik]

Option one (MM, SM, Saxon) sounds like it would cause more problems than it would solve.

[LAmom]

Because of jumping around? I suggested this for a change from MM and SM 5a/b not 6a/b to ready her for prealgebra. Thinking maybe some of 5 would be a review? Didn't look too closely at SM though.

 

If I do switch from MM 5 to Saxon would dd start in 7/6? I would have her test but does that seem right? I would still have MM to fall back on if Saxon bombed.

[fourisenough]

I would not add SM into the mix.

 

After completing MM 5B, I would *guess* she'd place into Saxon 7/6, but as others have said, use and heed the results of the placement test. My daughter is in MM 5B and has begun to balk at math- for her, this is the first time math has caused her to work at all (it has been all sunshine and rainbows up to this point). Because I already own Saxon (and used it from 6/5- Algebra 1 with my older girls), I gave her the Saxon placement test last week. She placed solidly into 7/6 and wanted to switch to it because it seemed easy to her. I have decided to keep her in MM because I know it is a better fit for her. The placement test is a lot like one of the mixed practice review sets in the Saxon books; if your daughter likes it/does well with it, Saxon may indeed be a good choice for her. It worked for my older girls who needed to continually practice everything or they would forget it. FWIW, both are in very good PS math classes now and doing well. Good luck with your decision.

[purplejackmama]

Gil, can I get a copy as well. Brilliant!

[deerforest]

I'll just go back to my earlier post. You say that she hates her math. I'd spend the summer getting her to love math using whatever you can. I am not convinced that changing curricula is a panacea for this problem. It wasn't for us, and we lived through this!

 

My DD hated math 3-4 years ago. It was frustrating because she was actually quite good at it conceptually but she hated the operational practice. So, I ended up taking an entire year off from regular math, away from all curriculum. We did living math for a full year and then went right into Beast Academy. That year and our move into BA was one of the best decisions I've ever made as a homeschooling mom to my daughter. She loved math at the end of that time.

 

I've continued to supplement, supplement, supplement. We had to move to Singapore 5a because we outpaced BA, but we weren't really thrilled so we went back to some Hands on Equations and some other stuff. Now BA 4B came out so we've swung back to it.

 

DD is a young 4th grader (she's not 10 til early September) but I'm quite happy with this meandering course if it means that she continues to like math and if it means I can continue to nurture her natural strengths with her mathematical reasoning and comprehension while getting her to do enough challenging practice without being overwhelmingly boring.

[fourisenough]

Just to be clear, the notes that I have were some that I made up gradually over time. The list was never meant to be published/shared and really I started it to A--help me keep track of what they could and could not do and B--help me plan ahead of what I wanted them to be able to do.

 

The list grew as they did and their may be a few scenarios that are not fully fleshed out because it is part diary/part lesson plan/part over-tired, highly caffeinated Gil ramblings. Anyone who wants to get a copy, just let me know and when I dig it out, I'll distribute it to everyone.

Gil, have you had time to locate your (gold mine of a) list of mental math drills you quoted up thread? Pretty please...

[Gil]

Gil, have you had time to locate your (gold mine of a) list of mental math drills you quoted up thread? Pretty please...

Its really eerie but...I can't find the math list. I thought for sure that I had it, but I haven't been able to locate it. I don't know if that means it was deleted, never even written up or I am over looking it or what...Maybe I have just forgot what I named it or I didn't keep a thorough list. I'm really sorry about the inconvenience and/or dashed hopes guys. I could have sworn I had a document of those things...Maybe I did cook them up on the fly more often that I remember...

 

[fourisenough]

Its really eerie but...I can't find the math list. I thought for sure that I had it, but I haven't been able to locate it. I don't know if that means it was deleted, never even written up or I am over looking it or what...Maybe I have just forgot what I named it or I didn't keep a thorough list. I'm really sorry about the inconvenience and/or dashed hopes guys. I could have sworn I had a document of those things...Maybe I did cook them up on the fly more often that I remember...

Thanks for checking!