Jousting Armadillos and the rest

[Garga]

What level is each book supposed to be? Does anyone know?

 

Is Jousting Armadillos pre Alg?

Is Crocodiles and Coconuts Alg 1?

Is Chuckles the Rocket Dog Alg 2?

 

When I asked the people who make the books the above questions they replied that Chuckles the Rocket Dog goes through to the quadratic equation. Umm...I don't know what that means. Does that mean through Alg 2? I'm just a regular everyday person who wants to use these books to supplement our regular math program. Do I need to buy all three for pre-alg, or buy one a year for the next three years of math. We'll be doing pre-alg next year, alg 1 the year after that and alg 2 the year after that. We're regular math people here, not math whizzes.

[rdj2027]

I personally think all three together make a solid pre-algebra course with some added Alg1 elements.

[Julie Smith]

We aren't at that level yet. But I have read some threads on the subject. 

 

The books cover what they cover really well. But they don't cover enough to be a complete anything. 

 

Jousting Armadillos covers some of the topics from pre Alg.
Crocodiles and Coconuts covers some of the topics from Alg 1.
Chuckles the Rocket Dog, I haven't a clue. 

[Garga]

Ok--thank you! We would not be using these as our main math program. These would be supplemental. I'm in the middle of creating my budget for the upcoming year and was wondering how many of these to buy.

[Julie Smith]

Ok--thank you! We would not be using these as our main math program. These would be supplemental. I'm in the middle of creating my budget for the upcoming year and was wondering how many of these to buy.

 

I was hoping someone else would answer, just in case I'm wrong. I don't want to be leading anyone astray.

[Roadrunner]

The books cover what they cover really well. But they don't cover enough to be a complete anything.

 

I wonder if it's the school's philosophy to cover fewer topics in depth, or if they use other materials alongside this program. If they teach fewer topics, do they make up in the upper grades?

I know you probably can't answer this, but I am hoping anybody familiar with Arbor School will chime in, not that I need another math program. :)

[Chrysalis Academy]

When I asked about this, I was told that the three books together make up PreAlgebra plus Algebra 1.  Most of the Arbor School kids who complete this in 6th-8th go on to Geometry in 9th grade.

 

But I don't think they are a stand alone.  JA, which I have used, is great for PreA, but it's not a stand-alone PreA.  It doesn't cover everything you would expect to cover in PreA - notably, no measurement & geometry, and no counting & probability or statistics.  And it certainly doesn't take a whole school year to cover.  If you have a kid who is totally solid on their basic operations, you could combine JA with Zacarro's Real World Algebra for a great PreA year.  But the 6 chapters of JA on their own wouldn't take a whole year, and wouldn't provide enough practice on some key concepts for most kids - not to mention what it leaves out entirely.

 

When I lined up the S&S of the two upper books against other Algebra, they have topics missing.  Significantly, all the "review" topics that usuallly show up at the beginning of an algebra course/text are not included - I guess they figure you should have "got it" with JA.  But most kids do PreA for a year, and then get some review in Alg 1.  It's not like you just see each concept one time and have it down for life, KWIM?  I think you would definitely need to supplement.

 

 I tend to agree that you could do all three books, and then follow up with a very rigorous Algebra 1, and your kid would be in excellent shape.  But whew, that is so pricy!  One "set" of the books costs the same as the whole AoPS INtro to Algebra text plus solution manual, for example - and you get waaaaaay more bang for the buck at half the price.

 

I'm glad we used JA, but we won't continue with the series, because I can't justify the cost when I have to also worry about filling in holes.

 

ETA:  Not to mention that the TM (Answer Book and Tests) has a *ridiculous* number of errors.  For a book that is sold for $35 - $10 more than the cost of the student book! they should have sprung for a good editing job.

[Chrysalis Academy]

I wonder if it's the school's philosophy to cover fewer topics in depth, or if they use other materials alongside this program. If they teach fewer topics, do they make up in the upper grades?

I know you probably can't answer this, but I am hoping anybody familiar with Arbor School will chime in, not that I need another math program. :)

 

When I asked about this, they said that they do use supplemental material as needed for extra practice.  It did sound like kids managed to come away with a highly differentiated experience - I'm guessing they have a pretty low student-teacher ratio.

[Chrysalis Academy]

So to specifically answer the OP's question (finally!) You can definitely use them as a supplement - they are great for this! You would buy JA to supplement PreAlgebra and you would buy Crocodiles & Coconuts and Chuckles to supplement Algebra 1.  Algebra 2 is not covered.  Arbor school uses these as a 3-year PreA/Algebra 1 course taken in 6th-7th-8th grades.

[Guest Linus R]

Hey all,

 

Linus, author of Jousting Armadillos and co-author of the others, checking in. I've been away for quite some time (some paternity leave among other things), but I'll try to check in more frequently to see if I can be helpful. Chrysalis Academy (sorry I don't actually know people's names!) is very well informed about the Arbor math program, and the guess about the low student teacher ratio is right on the money. We're a little (around 200 students) K-8 school outside of Portland, Oregon. In the middle-grades math classrooms, where we use the books, the ratio is typically between 8:1 and 12:1.

 

It is clear to me that everyone on this forum is WAY better informed than I am about the math resources that are out there. All I can really tell you about our is our books and how we use them. I'm not qualified to make comparisons, and I honestly don't want to be about peddling product, both because I'd get kicked off the site and because I really think it would be an abuse. Like CA says, most of Arbor's grads go on to geometry courses in 9th grade -- there are generally one or two in class of 22 or 23 who go into Algebra I and a few who study geometry and start high school in a more advanced class.

 

We definitely DO supplement for the kinds of things CA talks about (measuring, probability, statistics, etc.). The three books were written to be an algebra course, and honestly we don't supplement for algebra except to add more practice problems for some kids as necessary (CA is right on again -- the books are deliberately light on long problem sets; I was trying to get the number of problems "right" in the sense that I'd rather add some practice than have kids skip over problem sets). I think that, taken together, the books are a complete algebra curriculum (of course, my opinion here is unlikely to be unbiased -- they represent a lot of labor on for me!). Some of the topics covered in Chuckles are things that are typically taught in a high school Algebra II class, though that, of course, varies considerably with the school. In terms of the writing process, while I did consult a variety of state and national math standards, I didn't write to those standards -- instead I was focused on elucidating algebra, and helping kids explore it, to the best of my own ability.

 

Sorry about all of the answer book errors!!!!! This year I did a second edition of JA and of the JA answer book, trying to correct problems in both. I hope that they're better now. The way I've tried to soothe my angst over this is to say to myself that those errors are an artifact of a textbook that does not come from a big publishing company with a team of proofreaders. 

 

I want to say that I am personally really excited that there are people outside of Arbor who are actually using these books. Like I say, they took a lot of work (a labor of love for the most part!) and it's always been part of my hope that they'd be useful to a wider audience. So, I guess what I'm saying is thank you.

 

I will try to check in at least once a week, but I've got some crazy deadlines going on (trying to put together some Humanities materials for one thing). If you want you can also email me: linus@arborschool.org.

 

 

[Guest Linus R]

Whoops. Looking back over the thread, I see I also should have said that the books definitely don't break down neatly in terms of what the cover. JA is mostly pre-algebra, in the sense of being an introduction to algebra topics; the other two are mostly Algebra I with, like I say, some Algebra II topics in Chuckles. 

[Grover]

we're axiously awaiting the arrival of our  copies so we can get into it... my darling son saved his birthday and Christmas money to buy them.  Ahhh to be a math geek. 

[Dolphin]

 

 

It is clear to me that everyone on this forum is WAY better informed than I am about the math resources that are out there. All I can really tell you about our is our books and how we use them. I'm not qualified to make comparisons, and I honestly don't want to be about peddling product, both because I'd get kicked off the site and because I really think it would be an abuse. 

 

 

Hi Linus,

  Thanks for chiming in. Just so you know. On this forum you can not start a thread peddling JA and the other books. However, our Queen Susan Bauer is very generous and you are more the welcome to come talk about the books and answer questions on threads that are started by other members specifically about your material. The abuse would be is someone was asking about Art of Problem Solving and you chimed in saying why JA would be better. :) We appreciate authors coming on here and answering our questions.

 

We just started with JA this week, and so far ds is loving it. We are using it as pre, pre algebra. Then we will dive into AOPS Pre Alg and keep going. So far we have supplemented with LOF, but we are considering supplementing with the 2 Arbor books. DH said he could do it without the instructor book. 

 

Arbor is an awesome little school. We looked there for ds, but it would not have been a good fit for him. However we are strongly thinking of sending dd to Arbor around 4th grade. Just for other parents to know. I have been there, walked the campus seen the classes. It is a peaceful little haven of learning, all surrounded by Oregon trees.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Hi Linus,

 

Thanks so much for coming and answering people's questions! I've been doing my feeble best.  I'm glad you consider my answers well-informed, it means I wasn't misrepresenting you! Everything I know I got from answers you kindly emailed to me before I bought the books.  Anyway, it's nice that people can get info direct from the source!

 

I just wanted to tell you how much Shannon and I have enjoyed using JA this year.  She wanted me to tell you that she loves your obsession with weasels, and wants to have a weasel farm of her own.  ;)  :D

 

In all seriousness, the book has been a pleasure to use and she had developed so many great thinking and logic skills using it.  And the tone is just exactly right - she says she feels like you are right there in the room, talking to her.  This is a rare accomplishment, so kudos!

 

I'm glad you guys are revising the answer book, but it's actually been kind of fun for Shannon to find the errors - it's kind of become a game with her.  It's fun to feel smarter than your book sometimes!  Now that I know you are here I feel kinda bad about complaining about the mistakes in the answer book, so I just wanted to tell you how much we appreciate the effort you made in putting this out there, I can definitely tell it is a labor of love.  So thank you!

 

And congrats on becoming a dad!

Best wishes,

 

Rose

[Farrar]

Sorry about all of the answer book errors!!!!! This year I did a second edition of JA and of the JA answer book, trying to correct problems in both. I hope that they're better now. The way I've tried to soothe my angst over this is to say to myself that those errors are an artifact of a textbook that does not come from a big publishing company with a team of proofreaders. 

 

Does that mean that if I were to buy the answer book now (or in a few months) that it would be the updated edition?

 

Thanks so much for chiming in.  I'm really excited to use JA with one of my boys, who is really good with math when it's presented in the right way.  Our program is pretty eclectic, so I wanted to go ahead and see where to aim us and I think it's going to be perfect in about a year or a little less, which means that I haven't bought the answer book yet, so hopefully I'll be able to benefit from a new edition.

[deerforest]

I emailed to ask because I bought it from Amazon in early February. He said that it should be the new one with a 2013 copyright. I verified that but he also told me to check another number on the last interior page and that didn't match what he said to look for so I emailed him back just now.

 

Rose, did your answer key have a 2009 or 2013 copyright?

[Chrysalis Academy]

Mine is 2009.

[deerforest]

Okay, I heard back from Will (who is working late responding to my emails!) and he confirmed that anything with the 2013 copyright has the updates, and the ones you order from Amazon will have the 2013 date. So, ours is good to go. Here's hoping they fixed everything Rose found! :thumbup:

[Roadrunner]

The books don't have answers in the back at all, right?

[Chrysalis Academy]

The books don't have answers in the back at all, right?

 

Right.

[Roadrunner]

Right.

I wish they would make just answers (no solutions) available in PDF. Most books contain answers in the back. That could make the entire series so much kore affordable.

[MrsH]

Dd11 just started and loves it. Good to know that a few topics will need to be done in addition. I honestly think that'll be a nice change for her, and can be more "real-life" anyway. She also just did a geometry class at co-op and seems pretty inclined towards it, so that's done for now!

[Farrar]

I wish they would make just answers (no solutions) available in PDF. Most books contain answers in the back. That could make the entire series so much kore affordable.

 

But is one of the good things about the solution manual the way they present them?  Rose, did you say it presents different ways kids solved the problems?  Because that really appeals to me.  And while it's expensive, I think I'm willing to pay for it.

 

In depth solutions is really one of the things I value most about Beast Academy and AoPS.  And it's one of the reasons we switched from CWP to Process Skills in Problem Solving.  CWP just gives you the answers with no explanation.  Process Skills gives you the method (though, obviously not as in depth as Beast or AoPS).  When I didn't understand what the CWP was even asking, the answer was zero help.  And how could we use that to learn more?  But seeing the solution laid out is extremely useful for me as a teacher and the kids as learners.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Well, it's kind of a combination of a standard answer book and a worked-solutions book.  The thing about JA is that it is not just pages of problems - there are lots of reasoning and logic problems to solve, and you keep a math notebook where you write important things down.  The answer book includes samples of Notes to Self the kids wrote, and thorough explanations of the logic and reasoning problems.  But then, for the straightforward problems, it just has the answers.  

 

This was actually the first book where I had Shannon use the Answer Book to check her own answers.  That proved a useful exercise and is standard practice around here now.  She also enjoyed figuring out when the answer book was wrong - ironically, knowing that there were mistakes was kind of useful, because she would always go back and re-work her problem if her answer was different from the book's and in this way she sometimes found her own mistake, or sometimes got to crow when her answer was correct and the book's was wrong.

 

It also contains chapter tests and the test solutions.  The tests are really good. they require the student to explain their mathematical reasoning and solve logic problems, they aren't just pages of equations to solve.

 

The answer books are a great resource.  I just wish they weren't so darn expensive.

[Roadrunner]

But is one of the good things about the solution manual the way they present them? Rose, did you say it presents different ways kids solved the problems? Because that really appeals to me. And while it's expensive, I think I'm willing to pay for it.

 

In depth solutions is really one of the things I value most about Beast Academy and AoPS. And it's one of the reasons we switched from CWP to Process Skills in Problem Solving. CWP just gives you the answers with no explanation. Process Skills gives you the method (though, obviously not as in depth as Beast or AoPS). When I didn't understand what the CWP was even asking, the answer was zero help. And how could we use that to learn more? But seeing the solution laid out is extremely useful for me as a teacher and the kids as learners.

But I am not arguing for discontinuation of what they offer. I am suggesting for people who don't need solutions manual for various reasons, including financial, have an opportunity to at least check the answers, a somewhat standard feature in most books (SM IPs don't have solution manuals, but they answer key is indispensable to me). If my option is $35 and I can't afford it, I would at least want to know f we got the problem right. I don't disagree that inclusion of full solutions offers huge value to Beast, and Beast doesn't charge extra for it.

[Chrysalis Academy]

I agree, Roadrunner.  I can appreciate that their costs are very high and this is what they feel they need to charge to make it work for them, but I do see it limiting the utility of the program for some people.  I've posted before that my main decision to not continue with the program past JA is a financial one, my kid would love to keep using  it.  

 

BA is $108 for a full year, 4 guides and 4 workbooks, right?  $12 + $15 times 4?  Hmm, I'm trying to compare that to C&C plus Chuckles, which would be $120 for one year.  I guess it's not so much more.  On the other hand, AoPS Intro to Algebra plus the solutions manual is just $60 for more than a year's worth of Algebra 1.

 

What's hard is that for PreAlgebra, at least, I needed other resources to make this a complete year, and once you add the $60 for JA plus the cost of Zaccaro RWA, plus something for Geometry and Statistics . . . it just starts to add up, big time.