If you are giving languages a priority in your classical school...

[The Governess]

How do you find time for everything else?

 

Dd9 will be in 5th next year. She is gifted in language - doesn't necessarily have an advanced vocabulary, but is very good with decoding/grammar/language patterns - and does well with and enjoys foreign language study. She is currently studying Latin (we will finish a bit over 1/3 of LNM this year and some of Henle 1 for extra practice) and Mandarin (in a class). These two subjects together take her about 7-8 hours a week. We'll continue with both next year. Add in a hour a day of pre-algebra starting in the fall, and we are already up to 2.5 hours of daily work. I'd really like to limit her schooling to 5 hours or less a day, so that gives me another 2.5 hours max each day to do:

 

Writing (WWS1 - second half - and across the curriculum)

English grammar (R&S 7)

History and Geography (US History)

Literature and Poetry

Science (Astronomy and Weather)

Logic - maybe chess

Art of some sort

 

She also wants to learn computer programming, but this may have to wait.

 

I've debated dropping English grammar since it is natural for her, but it is helping her make connections in foreign language, and I'd really like to finish at least through level 8.

 

She is a reluctant writer and WWS is a chore, but it is really helping her. I want to continue with it at half pace and use the other time to put her skills to use writing about our current studies. This sequence would have us finishing WWS3 in 9th.

 

For the content subjects, we will mostly do read-alouds and independent reading, discussions, and some writing projects. Some light lit analysis. Figuratively speaking and MCT's poetry will be our only curriculum here, and Real Science 4 Kids for Astronomy (middle school) as a jumping off point. For History, I'm thinking about using The History of US and adding in other reading and some jackdaw portfolios on topics of interest.

 

Is this going to work? I can be a little optimistic when planning out how much I can accomplish in a year, so I am second guessing myself. Dd9 is becoming more independent, so that will work in my favor, but I am finding that as she moves into middle school materials, the work is much deeper and more time consuming (in a good way), and I am needing to streamline more and more in order to get the important stuff accomplished. Also, I have to plan more time for just sitting and discussing what we are studying.

 

I'd love some input from seasoned teachers who have been in this spot. Thanks!!

[Allearia]

My son has been studying two languages seriously since that age, and it is very difficult to add all of the other subjects in there. I prioritize math, science, and writing. Right now I am trying to squeeze in finishing WWS, and it will have to work around some outside classes he is taking, such as a creative writing class he loves. Some of the history goes with the languages, and there is a lot more informal interest. Videos, books, I want to do more but the reality is there is not enough time, he is gaining the knowledge, and if he is learning writing and research skills in other areas they will transfer if more formal history is done later. Literature, again a lot of reading but it is also studied in the other languages. At the point he is in with Latin and Greek, he is reading literature and history with it. So I want more exposure obviously to other areas of the world and literature, but have to be creative with it. This year we were able to add a fabulous outside science class with a weekly three hour lab. Then he does a bit of work associated with that, another hands on science centered club. He does piano but I think after this year we will phase it out, as he really wants to focus more on math and science.

 

He probably does more like six hours a day but also a couple of hours a day on weekends. So if you want to keep it to five you will have to cut back. Five hours of formal work with language, math, science, and writing, then do some more informal work, reading, art, history the rest of the time. It depends on your daughter, if you could add another hour or so you would have more flexibility. Or if she would consider doing science experiments or art projects to be fun that you can do outside of the five hours. She is still young - and I know you probably hate when people tell you that, lol, but I have to keep reminding myself that as well.

 

It is really not how I exactly pictured homeschooling. I love the four year history cycle, literature, poetry, grammar! But being able to spend this amount of time on languages is so valuable, and he is getting so much out if it. And you certainly won't find a school where they could do that. You have to look at, what is essential and what things can you squeeze in in other ways or during different times. I always have a lot more I want to do, and I think if I was better organized and didn't work part time I could do more, but serious language study uses a lot of concentration and brain power and just takes a lot of time if you do more than dabble. For example, logic, I just consider he is getting that with Latin and math, and those are more valuable than working through a logic book. However, I think your idea of using chess is great - something out of the books that is challenging but fun and involves other people. Computer programming - if she wants to. Mine is interested but so far hasn't been so excited he is begging for it, so I will make that happen when his interest sparks a bit more so it isn't a chore.

 

It sounds like your daughter is doing incredibly well. The skills she is learning by studying languages are going to transfer into anything she does- having to work hard, seeing that hard work pay off, learning study skills, training her brain to see words and the world in many different ways. So it is worth it to let language study crowd out some other things. Do the most important things, but don't try to do everything.

[The Governess]

Allearia, thanks so much for your post. It's nice to know that I'm not the only one finding this a struggle. I'm so glad to hear that you have found the emphasis on languages to be worth it.

 

I am really looking forward to the time when dd will be able to read in the languages she is studying. We are still far away from that, but it is a huge goal of mine and the type of rich education I want for my girls. It gives me hope to hear from others who have achieved this!

 

I like your idea of keeping the other subjects more informal. I may be able to add in more time as a nightly read-aloud. The main problem is that dd has recently become passionate about ballet and is dancing many hours a week. It's the first time she has decided on her own to pursue something that requires a lot of effort on her part (it doesn't come easy to her like academics do), so I want to give her the time she needs to do this, even if it means limiting our formal school time a bit. I am open to doing school on the weekends if necessary, but dh isn't so on board with that, unless it doesn't look like "school". ;). I can probably get creative with this and plan some outings, movies/documentaries, projects etc. for the weekends that would pass as "educational family time." :D

 

Thanks again for sharing your experience and helping me think this through!

[Hunter]

My youngest was studying Latin, Greek and Hebrew intensively for awhile.

 

We didn't try at all to keep up with the other traditional subjects. Social studies and science was mostly DVDs and below grade level library books that were relaxing reads. We did NOT do high school texts in those subjects for most of the time he was doing intensive classical language studies and advanced maths.

 

We did keep up a rigorous math schedule.

 

I squeezed in the arts and music and always scheduled in time for a daily walk ad other physical fitness activities.

 

We were very conservative Christians at the time. Literature was mostly BIble reading and Bible study. He hated to write, I wasn't good at teaching it or scheduling it, and it got neglected. He could read, though! He could read classical texts like they were Dick and Jane primers. All that KJV reading really prepared him for the Great Books.

 

I have ambivalent feelings about what we did. It's too late to change anything now, and I'm not sure I would if I could, but…I don't know. This is what we did, for better and for worse.

[madteaparty]

We do. We are currently focusing on one language only, but will add a second in the fall. The frank answer I guess is that we do not spend as much time per day on the language as you do (though we probably should), that I am not a project/crafty/rabbit trail/ nature study sort of person so there's very little of that in our lives (we do travel and field-trip quite a bit), we study the language year round and try for a bit of immersion where we can (for example: he does not study French for more than 45 min per day, and not everyday, but he is doing one week of immersion this summer in France). He also plays tennis. It is hard to juggle and I wonder if we are not doing it well.

ETA: we do not formally study grammar beside our "integrated" language arts curriculum (Galore Park Junior English).

Edited again: like previous poster, we prioritize language arts, foreign language and math. We do not study science at the subject matter level that you do (for 4th grade, I'm using integrated science and also a bunch of read alouds. For 5th, we will get more specific, but only one science subject at a time).

[The Governess]

My youngest was studying Latin, Greek and Hebrew intensively for awhile.

 

We didn't try at all to keep up with the other traditional subjects. Social studies and science was mostly DVDs and below grade level library books that were relaxing reads. We did NOT do high school texts in those subjects for most of the time he was doing intensive classical language studies and advanced maths.

 

We did keep up a rigorous math schedule.

 

I squeezed in the arts and music and always scheduled in time for a daily walk ad other physical fitness activities.

 

We were very conservative Christians at the time. Literature was mostly BIble reading and Bible study. He hated to write, I wasn't good at teaching it or scheduling it, and it got neglected. He could read, though! He could read classical texts like they were Dick and Jane primers. All that KJV reading really prepared him for the Great Books.

 

I have ambivalent feelings about what we did. It's too late to change anything now, and I'm not sure I would if I could, but…I don't know. This is what we did, for better and for worse.

Thanks, Hunter. This is helpful, despite your ambivalent feelings. :) It is helping me think through my goals and alternative ways to accomplish them. My dd is a good reader, but in her spare time she would much rather read Lemony Snickett or Fablehaven than a children's "classic" or nonfiction. For now, most of our classics are read aloud. I am trying to transition her to tackling some on her own, and I think I will start by having her contribute and read parts of our read-aloud selections to the family before giving her short independent reading assignments at that level.

 

I'm also thinking about how to make writing instruction more efficient for her. She is naturally strong with mechanics. Her individual sentences are well structured and make sense. What she struggles with is content: what is important to talk about and what do I leave out (WWE has definitely helped with this, but she is still not a "natural" at it), how do I make my ideas flow nicely, how do I find the vocabulary to explain an idea in my own words, etc. WWS is slowly helping with this, but I realize now that yes, these are writing skills, but first and foremost they are critical thinking skills, and dialectic discussion will help her develop them and later they will naturally transfer to her writing. So, perhaps I can be a little lighter with the writing assignments outside of WWS and let our discussions act as a substitute for building these skills part of the time.

[The Governess]

We do. We are currently focusing on one language only, but will add a second in the fall. The frank answer I guess is that we do not spend as much time per day on the language as you do (though we probably should), that I am not a project/crafty/rabbit trail/ nature study sort of person so there's very little of that in our lives (we do travel and field-trip quite a bit), we study the language year round and try for a bit of immersion where we can (for example: he does not study French for more than 45 min per day, and not everyday, but he is doing one week of immersion this summer in France). He also plays tennis. It is hard to juggle and I wonder if we are not doing it well.

ETA: we do not formally study grammar beside our "integrated" language arts curriculum (Galore Park Junior English).

Edited again: like previous poster, we prioritize language arts, foreign language and math. We do not study science at the subject matter level that you do (for 4th grade, I'm using integrated science and also a bunch of read alouds. For 5th, we will get more specific, but only one science subject at a time).

We have tried spending less time on languages, but when we do progress just becomes sooooo slow. I'm finding that we make the best progress if we work for at least 45 minutes a day every day.

 

I'm not very project-y either. Like you, I'd much rather travel and do field trips for our extras. At home, I like reading, talking, and writing. The only projects we do here are art (not regularly enough if you ask my kids!) or a science activity. This is the first year we have done an actual science curriculum; we used Real Science 4 Kids geology and it was a huge hit so I want to continue in the fall. My goal with science is really just exposure at this point, and a little math application ( we will keep a weather station next year and she will record observations and do some calculations).

 

From the responses so far, it sounds like for the most part, heavier foreign language study means less output/projects/time spent on content areas. This means that the time we do spend on those areas really has to count! I am going to be thinking a lot about how to make the time we spend in these areas as meaningful as possible.

[Mom2OandE]

Can you do it in seasons? Astronomy could be done in 10-12 weeks (Real Science 4 Kids is set up as ten lessons) then switch to computer science or ten weeks followed by logic or art. Nothing says every subject needs to be all yer.

[alef]

I prioritize foreign language, math, and music as skill subjects that build incrementally. We school year round, which helps, but there are trade offs. We do not study much formal English grammar in elementary school, nor have we done formal writing. My children read a lot and listen to high quality litererature as audiobooks, I personally believe that is more important to their ultimate development as writers than a formal language arts program in the elementary years. They have picked up spelling on their own. We do memory work, and do science in fits and starts, mostly through reading books together and doing experiments and activities (they think dissections are fun...) I feel their success in science at the upper levels will be best helped by wide reading and experience in the world and nature coupled with strong math skills, I am not worrying about covering a specific set of information at this point.

 

For your family, I would prioritize the things that seem most important to you and the things that ignite your child's interest. I would spend less time on things that come naturally or that you are just trudging through because that's what everyone studies.

[lea_lpz]

I rotate 1 other subjects daily, so you might find it possible to do the last 5 1x a week, like history Monday, Literature Tuesday, Science Wednesday, etc.

[Nan in Mass]

Hmm...  I found it helpful to look at the way Europeans teach foreign languages.  As soon as possible, they have them reading original works and writing and giving oral presentations about them in the target language.  Your choice of languages might make that harder than if you were doing, say, French and German, but eventually, some of the literature part will solve itself as you get to the point where what you are doing for foreign language IS literature.  You'll be able to drop grammar, too.  She'll be able to learn languages faster if her grammar is good but she should get to a point where she is learning enough of it in Latin that you needn't do English grammar as well.  Will she be able to read Chinese?  If so, you can double up Chinese and another subject later.  My Irish friend said that in school, he had Irish every day and then the next period after that was taught in Irish, no matter what the subject was.  Joan in Geneva suggested that my youngest, who got the farthest in French, do history/geography in high school using a textbook used in France a few grades lower.  That worked smashingly!

 

I can tell you what we did, but keep in mind that I was doing French, Latin, and a bit of something else, and I would rate our success as mixed.  Your choice of Latin and Chinese might make my approach much more difficult.  Or not.  I don't know enough about Chinese to tell.  Also keep in mind that we did some of these things some years and others other years.

 

When the children were younger, we did math and Latin every day.  Math and Latin they did twice a day, actually, because otherwise they forgot it as fast as they learned it.  We did the lesson together in the morning, and then in the evening, they did the excersize for "homework".  Then I fit the rest in around that.  Fridays were our long day (no gymnastics) and we did science and history that day (on top of math and Latin).  It helps to keep in mind that some subjects are more content subjects (history) and some are more skills subjects (writing, math, foreign languages).  If you have to skimp, skimp on the content subjects.  Content can be learned later.  Skills are harder to learn later.  I had a horrible time fitting everything in so I decided to jam the math and history onto Fridays and work on the skills stuff Mon. - Fri.  (Math and Latin we did M - F.)  Except for Draw Squad, which made a good break, took ten or fifteen minutes, and taught them to draw, we did art in the summer.  My children didn't mind that.  We'd take a week or two and work on it intesively.  I also took some of TWTM history and literature list, the most fun stuff, and had them read it in the summer.  Just read.  No writing.  The amount of time you are spending on languages and math sound right to me.  Very right.  And it sounds just like what you ought to be spending time on, to me.  Not that I know everything, but mine graduated from home school so I have some perspective.  We did TWTM for science and history, and that worked fairly well squashed into Fridays, working a bit later than our normal school day.  That left us with reading, writing, piano, nature journals, and memory work to fit into the non-math/foreign language time, which worked ok.  The tricky bit is that you probably won't be able to use somebody else's curriculum if you do this.  TWTM is very language-intensive/skills-intensive when the children are younger, so the history and science that is suggested actually fits into a Friday.

 

When the children were older, I realized that we needed to specialize a bit more, which meant that we were NOT going to be able to follow all the WTM suggestions for each subject to the end of that subject.  TWTM gives you a sequence to follow for each subject, one that reaches a fairly high level.  If you have a fairly ordinary child, you are not going to be able to follow each thread to its end point.  You are going to have to start moving more slowly or drop some of the threads.  I took the general approach of working on one language with a textbook and the other more immersion-style during those years.

 

HTH

Nan

[The Governess]

Hmm... I found it helpful to look at the way Europeans teach foreign languages. As soon as possible, they have them reading original works and writing and giving oral presentations about them in the target language. Your choice of languages might make that harder than if you were doing, say, French and German, but eventually, some of the literature part will solve itself as you get to the point where what you are doing for foreign language IS literature. You'll be able to drop grammar, too. She'll be able to learn languages faster if her grammar is good but she should get to a point where she is learning enough of it in Latin that you needn't do English grammar as well. Will she be able to read Chinese? If so, you can double up Chinese and another subject later. My Irish friend said that in school, he had Irish every day and then the next period after that was taught in Irish, no matter what the subject was. Joan in Geneva suggested that my youngest, who got the farthest in French, do history/geography in high school using a textbook used in France a few grades lower. That worked smashingly!

 

I can tell you what we did, but keep in mind that I was doing French, Latin, and a bit of something else, and I would rate our success as mixed. Your choice of Latin and Chinese might make my approach much more difficult. Or not. I don't know enough about Chinese to tell. Also keep in mind that we did some of these things some years and others other years.

 

When the children were younger, we did math and Latin every day. Math and Latin they did twice a day, actually, because otherwise they forgot it as fast as they learned it. We did the lesson together in the morning, and then in the evening, they did the excersize for "homework". Then I fit the rest in around that. Fridays were our long day (no gymnastics) and we did science and history that day (on top of math and Latin). It helps to keep in mind that some subjects are more content subjects (history) and some are more skills subjects (writing, math, foreign languages). If you have to skimp, skimp on the content subjects. Content can be learned later. Skills are harder to learn later. I had a horrible time fitting everything in so I decided to jam the math and history onto Fridays and work on the skills stuff Mon. - Fri. (Math and Latin we did M - F.) Except for Draw Squad, which made a good break, took ten or fifteen minutes, and taught them to draw, we did art in the summer. My children didn't mind that. We'd take a week or two and work on it intesively. I also took some of TWTM history and literature list, the most fun stuff, and had them read it in the summer. Just read. No writing. The amount of time you are spending on languages and math sound right to me. Very right. And it sounds just like what you ought to be spending time on, to me. Not that I know everything, but mine graduated from home school so I have some perspective. We did TWTM for science and history, and that worked fairly well squashed into Fridays, working a bit later than our normal school day. That left us with reading, writing, piano, nature journals, and memory work to fit into the non-math/foreign language time, which worked ok. The tricky bit is that you probably won't be able to use somebody else's curriculum if you do this. TWTM is very language-intensive/skills-intensive when the children are younger, so the history and science that is suggested actually fits into a Friday.

 

When the children were older, I realized that we needed to specialize a bit more, which meant that we were NOT going to be able to follow all the WTM suggestions for each subject to the end of that subject. TWTM gives you a sequence to follow for each subject, one that reaches a fairly high level. If you have a fairly ordinary child, you are not going to be able to follow each thread to its end point. You are going to have to start moving more slowly or drop some of the threads. I took the general approach of working on one language with a textbook and the other more immersion-style during those years.

 

HTH

Nan

Nan, I'm sorry I'm responding to this so late. Thank you so much for sharing your experience. I'm glad to hear that a math/language focus worked for you. I know I can't do everything, and I need to stop feeling bad at this point if I don't have 3 hours a week to spend on history. You are right that the skills are more important! It's nice to have that validation.

 

We are a bit farther along in Chinese than we are with the Latin. Well, I guess I should say she is technically a beginner in both, but because we spent time covering a lot of Chinese vocab when she was younger, and has worked with a tutor a bit, she is breezing through Chinese class with confidence. The Latin is slower going as she has no prior exposure. The goal with Chinese is oral and written fluency, and the goal with Latin is fluent reading.

 

Right now she is using high school level materials and my guess is that she will be at the AP level by 8th or 9th. This means that high school foreign language will likely consist of mostly reading - which will give us some efficiencies. I love the idea of having her study a subject using materials written in Chinese! Dd has already told me that when she is done with Latin she wants to learn French or Italian... sigh. I guess I'll cross that bridge when I come to it!

 

I think I will stop with English grammar after we are done with the level 8 book, which will be in sixth grade. That will free up some time that can transfer to content subjects in 7th.

 

Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts! It is such a process trying to piece together a school plan that will work for each individual child and their interests but doesn't leave them with lopsided skills/knowledge. This has been very helpful for me. :)