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Anyone watching 19 Kids and Counting now?


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Oh my goodness!  My 23 yo dd wanted me to watch with her.  I finally had to tell her to be quiet or go away because she was making anguished noises the whole time.  The whole thing was SOOOO AKWARD!!!!!  We thought all of the parents were totally inappropriate.  They all asked questions about how Jessa and Ben were feeling about each other, what they thought when they first saw each other, etc….. Who does that?  My dd said those questions might be appropriate on a fifth anniversary, NOT when they are just getting to know each other.  And these questions were in front of each other, the family and CAMERAS!!!  And as soon as they were officially "courting" Jim-Bob, and really all of the parents, were talking as if this was a done deal. He said in a few months there could be a wedding!  Talk about pressure.  They claim this is supposed to be a time for Jessa and Ben to get to know each other to see if this could lead to marriage, but they are all but planning the wedding.  It would be hard for either one of them to back out now.

 

We agree with SOME of the ideas of courting, like getting to know each others family, etc.  But this was bizarre.  It was like their relationship was being dissected under a microscope.  I felt the parents were getting a vicarious thrill through their children's "romance."  Ick, just ick!  My dd said repeatedly toward the end to me, "I love you so much.  I love you and Dad so much!!!" She was just repulsed by the whole thing.

 

All that being said, Jessa is one of our favorites, she has spunk.  And we liked Ben and thought he had guts to go through all that and on camera too.  BUt the whole process was just yucky.

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Oh my goodness!  My 23 yo dd wanted me to watch with her.  I finally had to tell her to be quiet or go away because she was making anguished noises the whole time.  The whole thing was SOOOO AKWARD!!!!!  We thought all of the parents were totally inappropriate.  They all asked questions about how Jessa and Ben were feeling about each other, what they thought when they first saw each other, etc….. Who does that?  My dd said those questions might be appropriate on a fifth anniversary, NOT when they are just getting to know each other.  And these questions were in front of each other, the family and CAMERAS!!!  And as soon as they were officially "courting" Jim-Bob, and really all of the parents, were talking as if this was a done deal. He said in a few months there could be a wedding!  Talk about pressure.  They claim this is supposed to be a time for Jessa and Ben to get to know each other to see if this could lead to marriage, but they are all but planning the wedding.  It would be hard for either one of them to back out now.

 

We agree with SOME of the ideas of courting, like getting to know each others family, etc.  But this was bizarre.  It was like their relationship was being dissected under a microscope.  I felt the parents were getting a vicarious thrill through their children's "romance."  Ick, just ick!  My dd said repeatedly toward the end to me, "I love you so much.  I love you and Dad so much!!!" She was just repulsed by the whole thing.

 

All that being said, Jessa is one of our favorites, she has spunk.  And we liked Ben and thought he had guts to go through all that and on camera too.  BUt the whole process was just yucky.

 

I am cringing just reading your description.

 

I haven't watched in a few years, but I always liked Jessa.  It seemed to me that all of the Duggar girls' lives were on hold until they got married. They were just at home, taking care of little ones, etc.  One of them expressed interest in becoming a midwife I think, but I don't remember her ever pursuing that in terms of college, nursing, etc. I hope that has changed.  

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Jana and Jill are doing medical stuff. I think Jana is working towards becoming a doula, and Jill might be working toward being a full-fledged midwife.

 

I didn't realize the show was back! I'm obsessed, although Jim Bob is not personally my cup of tea.

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Oh my goodness! My 23 yo dd wanted me to watch with her. I finally had to tell her to be quiet or go away because she was making anguished noises the whole time. The whole thing was SOOOO AKWARD!!!!! We thought all of the parents were totally inappropriate. They all asked questions about how Jessa and Ben were feeling about each other, what they thought when they first saw each other, etc….. Who does that? My dd said those questions might be appropriate on a fifth anniversary, NOT when they are just getting to know each other. And these questions were in front of each other, the family and CAMERAS!!! And as soon as they were officially "courting" Jim-Bob, and really all of the parents, were talking as if this was a done deal. He said in a few months there could be a wedding! Talk about pressure. They claim this is supposed to be a time for Jessa and Ben to get to know each other to see if this could lead to marriage, but they are all but planning the wedding. It would be hard for either one of them to back out now.

 

We agree with SOME of the ideas of courting, like getting to know each others family, etc. But this was bizarre. It was like their relationship was being dissected under a microscope. I felt the parents were getting a vicarious thrill through their children's "romance." Ick, just ick! My dd said repeatedly toward the end to me, "I love you so much. I love you and Dad so much!!!" She was just repulsed by the whole thing.

 

All that being said, Jessa is one of our favorites, she has spunk. And we liked Ben and thought he had guts to go through all that and on camera too. BUt the whole process was just yucky.

Oh, that's terrible. Who does that, and on camera!

I hope Jessa was paid a ton to go through that embarrassment. No idea why else she would go through with that.

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I only like to watch because they showed Jill and Jana attending home births.  :)  Love that the OOH birth is shown as an option and normal.  

Other than that, the more I learn about the Duggars and the parenting methods they follow (Gothard, ATI, very patriarchal), the less I care to watch.  

 

 

 

Jana and Jill are doing medical stuff. I think Jana is working towards becoming a doula, and Jill might be working toward being a full-fledged midwife.

I wouldn't classify it as medical, but rather birth work.  Doulas and midwives don't practice medicine.  ;)  And yes, Jill is doing an apprenticeship.  

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I only like to watch because they showed Jill and Jana attending home births. :) Love that the OOH birth is shown as an option and normal.

Other than that, the more I learn about the Duggars and the parenting methods they follow (Gothard, ATI, very patriarchal), the less I care to watch.

 

I wouldn't classify it as medical, but rather birth work. Doulas and midwives don't practice medicine. ;) And yes, Jill is doing an apprenticeship.

Doulas do not practice medicine. Midwives do.

 

Just clarifying :)

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midwifery_in_the_United_States

 

I imagine if a midwife is willing to be shown attending births on national television she must have a license to practice in her state.

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I would love to be able to look ten years down the road and see what these older girls' lives look like. I wonder if they'll follow the model, or strike out in a new direction. I wish them all the best and pray they don't end up on a different, crashed and burned sort of reality show.

 

As for Jim Bob, I can't wipe from my mind the image of him and Doug Wilson [ETA my mistake, it was Doug Phillips, not Wilson, sorry] having a kissing contest over Michelle when she was named VF's mother of the year. Blech.

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I would love to be able to look ten years down the road and see what these older girls' lives look like. I wonder if they'll follow the model, or strike out in a new direction. I wish them all the best and pray they don't end up on a different, crashed and burned sort of reality show.

 

As for Jim Bob, I can't wipe from my mind the image of him and Doug Wilson having a kissing contest over Michelle when she was named VF's mother of the year. Blech.

I was blissfully ignorant of this little episode until now.   :ack2: 

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I usually enjoy the Duggars, but Jim Bob's behavior on the double date is in one word....inappropriate!  Sorry-trivial I know, but I just had to get it off my chest.

 

 

Yes!  I am a big Duggars fan but I have no idea what he was thinking!  Although, I wondered later if the producers cut something out that happened right before that scene that would have explained it a bit more . . . . that's the only explanation I have come up with.  

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What? What? What???

 

on the kissing thing....  small typo in the previous poster's comment... Phillips not Wilson.  

 

I've seen that footage.  This is my take on it....Basically... at the award ceremony Doug P thought it was right and normal to kiss Michelle on the cheek and too much touching. It was kinda weird.  If some man tried to kiss me like that, I'd hope my husband would stop that.

so...  JB had to step in and push creepy DP away while the cameras were rolling.  Michelle looked like she was about to puke from the DP actions (or at least it was clear she didn't like it...).  JB had to step in there.   I don't think it was a kissing contest per se, but rather...   JB having to keep DP under control for a moment with body language that said "keep off my wife".   that's how I saw it from the clip out there...  maybe someone has link.  but I'm not looking for it again.  

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Doulas do not practice medicine. Midwives do.

Just clarifying :)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midwifery_in_the_United_States

I imagine if a midwife is willing to be shown attending births on national television she must have a license to practice in her state.

Certified NURSE midwives are practicing medicine (under an MD, the only person who is allowed to officially practice medicine) as a practitioner, but Lay midwives (the apprenticeship that Jill is going through) do not. She did not (and has not) received any training to be a nurse or a nurse midwife.

 

http://www.healthy.arkansas.gov/programsServices/familyHealth/WomensHealth/Pages/LayMidwifery.aspx

 

Arkansas is pretty laid back about lay midwives, but in many states, they are completely illegal (and arrested for practicing medicine).

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on the kissing thing....  small typo in the previous poster's comment... Phillips not Wilson.  

 

I've seen that footage.  This is my take on it....Basically... at the award ceremony Doug P thought it was right and normal to kiss Michelle on the cheek and too much touching. It was kinda weird.  If some man tried to kiss me like that, I'd hope my husband would stop that.

so...  JB had to step in and push creepy DP away while the cameras were rolling.  Michelle looked like she was about to puke from the DP actions (or at least it was clear she didn't like it...).  JB had to step in there.   I don't think it was a kissing contest per se, but rather...   JB having to keep DP under control for a moment with body language that said "keep off my wife".   that's how I saw it from the clip out there...  maybe someone has link.  but I'm not looking for it again.  

 

I don't remember the kissing part.  I've probably wiped it from my memory.  I *do* remember  watching DP standing at some podium with his arm draped around Michelle's shoulder while he was talking about her, and thinking, "Well THAT'S a little bit inappropriate." 

 

We are nowhere near as....um...strict *cough* as the Duggers when it comes to male-female interaction.  But I'm pretty sure my husband would not be happy with another man draping his arm around me in front of hundreds of people and then leaving it there as he pontificated on and on and on.....

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on the kissing thing....  small typo in the previous poster's comment... Phillips not Wilson.  

 

I've seen that footage.  This is my take on it....Basically... at the award ceremony Doug P thought it was right and normal to kiss Michelle on the cheek and too much touching. It was kinda weird.  If some man tried to kiss me like that, I'd hope my husband would stop that.

so...  JB had to step in and push creepy DP away while the cameras were rolling.  Michelle looked like she was about to puke from the DP actions (or at least it was clear she didn't like it...).  JB had to step in there.   I don't think it was a kissing contest per se, but rather...   JB having to keep DP under control for a moment with body language that said "keep off my wife".   that's how I saw it from the clip out there...  maybe someone has link.  but I'm not looking for it again.  

 

Go Jim Bob.  :thumbup1:

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ok.. I found it again...why did I look?  I had forgotten about the part where DP kissed her hand and then about 10 seconds later is when the cheek kiss happened and his hands all over her face. 2 minutes later JB kisses his wife and keeps his hands on her shoulders to push away the other guy from even getting closer.   I can see how it could be called a contest.. but I guess I see it more as a George McFly telling Biff to get your damn hands off of her kind of moment.   giggle....

 

 

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Certified NURSE midwives are practicing medicine (under an MD, the only person who is allowed to officially practice medicine) as a practitioner, but Lay midwives (the apprenticeship that Jill is going through) do not. She did not (and has not) received any training to be a nurse or a nurse midwife.

 

http://www.healthy.arkansas.gov/programsServices/familyHealth/WomensHealth/Pages/LayMidwifery.aspx

 

Arkansas is pretty laid back about lay midwives, but in many states, they are completely illegal (and arrested for practicing medicine).

I guess I don't know all the right terms. I was thinking that a doula attending a birth alone (not by accident, acting as a midwife) could be charged with practicing medicine without a license, while a licensed midwife attending a birth is acting legally within her licence.

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I don't remember the kissing part. I've probably wiped it from my memory. I *do* remember watching DP standing at some podium with his arm draped around Michelle's shoulder while he was talking about her, and thinking, "Well THAT'S a little bit inappropriate."

 

We are nowhere near as....um...strict *cough* as the Duggers when it comes to male-female interaction. But I'm pretty sure my husband would not be happy with another man draping his arm around me in front of hundreds of people and then leaving it there as he pontificated on and on and on.....

Ha! I don't think my husband would care at all assuming I know the person. I don't know how well they know DP or who he is even. But your comment reminded me of an incident this weekend. Dh and I went to see captain america with 2 friends. Dh and I came in 2 different cars that were parked on the opposite end of the parking lot. One of our male friends was parked right next to me, so dh and I parted ways and our friend walked me to my car. We lingered a bit cause we were in a conversation and then hugged goodbye. As I got in the car I though "you know I bet some acquaintance of dh saw this and got alarmed by me being at a movie with another man without dh." Dh and both laughed about once I played out the whole scene to him and I told him thoughts.

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I guess I don't know all the right terms. I was thinking that a doula attending a birth alone (not by accident, acting as a midwife) could be charged with practicing medicine without a license, while a licensed midwife attending a birth is acting legally within her licence.

A certified professional midwife or licensed midwife (not Nurse Midwife) in states where they are legal ARE acting within the scope of their certification/license, but they are not practicing medicine. :)

For example, that is why CPMs and lay midwives only take on certain (healthy) births and need to refer others out to a physician. If it includes practicing medicine at all or the birth get complicated during labor beyond their scope (it's pretty specific in most states) they are required to transfer their patient.

 

I just wanted to clarify that the only person practicing medicine is a physician, and Nurse Practitioners, PAs, and Certified nurse midwives practice medicine under the physicians licenses. Lay midwives or CPMs never practice medicine, and they are not "in medicine," professionally speaking. In our state, CPMs or lay midwives are illegal and if caught attending a home birth will be arrested for practicing medicine without a license. Sorry if I came across strong! :)

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I guess I don't know all the right terms. I was thinking that a doula attending a birth alone (not by accident, acting as a midwife) could be charged with practicing medicine without a license, while a licensed midwife attending a birth is acting legally within her licence.

Doulas aren't supposed to act as a midwife.  It is beyond the scope of their training. A doula's job is to provide non-medical support to the mother to help her with non-pharmacological pain relief, physical and emotional support.   Having worked in the birth field for a number of years, I never met a doula who intended to act as a midwife at someone's birth.  Some, however, have had to do an emergency catch when a baby came much faster than expected before other help could arrive or the mom could get to her maternity care provider.  Some trained midwives do act as doulas when their clients have chosen a different practitioner (like my friend who was having twins in a hospital - her midwife did not have priveleges at the hospital so she acted as a doula for her, letting the OB do his job.)   

 

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Just watched the clipped. Creepy. I sure hope my dh would get in between a man trying to caress my face. The hand kiss wouldn't have bothered me. Even a kiss on the cheek during an initial hug as part of the greeting is normal and wouldn't bother me but that guy was pure creep.

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A certified professional midwife or licensed midwife (not Nurse Midwife) in states where they are legal ARE acting within the scope of their certification/license, but they are not practicing medicine. :)

For example, that is why CPMs and lay midwives only take on certain (healthy) births and need to refer others out to a physician. If it includes practicing medicine at all or the birth get complicated during labor beyond their scope (it's pretty specific in most states) they are required to transfer their patient.

 

I just wanted to clarify that the only person practicing medicine is a physician, and Nurse Practitioners, PAs, and Certified nurse midwives practice medicine under the physicians licenses. Lay midwives or CPMs never practice medicine, and they are not "in medicine," professionally speaking. In our state, CPMs or lay midwives are illegal and if caught attending a home birth will be arrested for practicing medicine without a license. Sorry if I came across strong! :)

I find it odd that an unlicensed person attending a birth can be prosecuted for practicing medicine without a license, but a licensed midwife doing the same thing is considered to not be practicing medicine--if a person without a license is practicing medicine shouldn't a person with a license be practicing medicine if they engage in the same activity? I bow, however, before the vagaries of legal terminology :)

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 Not saying husband shouldn't step in if help is wanted/needed or voice his opinion, but why did JB have to posture to keep Doug P off Michelle? Michelle isn't allowed to speak up for her own personal space?

 

:ack2:  Just another reason patriarchy is disgusting and dangerous.

 

If someone is touching me inappropriately or making me feel uncomfortable, *I* am going to be the first one to shut that down, not my husband. I never want to live in a world where a woman feels she needs to defer that kind of power to her husband.

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If someone is touching me inappropriately or making me feel uncomfortable, *I* am going to be the first one to shut that down, not my husband. I never want to live in a world where a woman feels she needs to defer that kind of power to her husband.

 

based on how I saw the clip I don't think she did defer the power.  I think she appreciated the back up of both her husband and the lady on stage.  I'm not into the patriachy stuff at all, but if it were me in that situation, I'd be glad for the back up and team work in it.  but then again, in my life it would be team work and supportive.. not a deferring of power.  maybe the duggars view it differently.  I don't know.   I like it when my husband stands with me when I'm in uncomfortable situations, so that how I view the clip...

 

on the other hand, I like how Faith Hill (the country singer) once stepped in and told a lady in the audience to keep her hands off her husband's man parts.  I'm sure Tim could handle the situation, but I like how she stepped in, which has nothing to do with this thread... sorry..

 

(edit to add:  if someone (male or female) is receiving an award and something goes wrong or off script, I have expectation that staff step in to help instead of the person getting award expected to do it all.)

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I find it odd that an unlicensed person attending a birth can be prosecuted for practicing medicine without a license, but a licensed midwife doing the same thing is considered to not be practicing medicine--if a person without a license is practicing medicine shouldn't a person with a license be practicing medicine if they engage in the same activity? I bow, however, before the vagaries of legal terminology :)

In our state, it is considered practicing medicine- hence why any midwife other than one practicing under a doctor (CPMs and lay midwives don't) are illegal in our state. So, anyone attending a home birth not practicing under an MD is doing so illegally here. We are close to the state line, so many people head across the border to find a CPM birth center to birth in (and some in hotels). Someone may be a CPM in many states, but in states where they are illegal their certification in null and void. However, Certified Nurse Midwives are recognized in all 50 states. :) it is really confusing, especially for those not in the medical field. It is hard for many to understand that all midwives do not have the same education, training, experience and even legality across the nation.

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I didn't view the clip as her deferring to her husband. She's clearly emotional and overwhelmed in that clip and likely very unaware of the creepiness of the situation. I've been in situations where nothing seems off until you get out of the situation. Once taken out of the situation and having time to think about it I realized something was off. That usually only happens in situations where a lot is going on at the same time or my emotions are running wild, as it appears her are. So for her dh to notice these odd actions and her not to immediately it makes sense to me.

 

I'd be thankful if my dh stepped in rather than waiting for me to react. It would make me feel cared for and protected.

 

Not saying husband shouldn't step in if help is wanted/needed or voice his opinion, but why did JB have to posture to keep Doug P off Michelle? Michelle isn't allowed to speak up for her own personal space?

 

:ack2: Just another reason patriarchy is disgusting and dangerous.

 

If someone is touching me inappropriately or making me feel uncomfortable, *I* am going to be the first one to shut that down, not my husband. I never want to live in a world where a woman feels she needs to defer that kind of power to her husband.

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based on how I saw the clip I don't think she did defer the power.  I think she appreciated the back up of both her husband and the lady on stage.  I'm not into the patriachy stuff at all, but if it were me in that situation, I'd be glad for the back up and team work in it.  but then again, in my life it would be team work and supportive.. not a deferring of power.  maybe the duggars view it differently.  I don't know.   I like it when my husband stands with me when I'm in uncomfortable situations, so that how I view the clip...

 

on the other hand, I like how Faith Hill (the country singer) once stepped in and told a lady in the audience to keep her hands off her husband's man parts.  I'm sure Tim could handle the situation, but I like how she stepped in, which has nothing to do with this thread... sorry..

 

Absolutely (in terms of teamwork and backing each other up). Perhaps it's more the ick factor of the likes of Doug Philips, and knowing that a lot of women don't stand up for themselves because they have been led to believe it's not their place to speak up and that they must obey the men in their lives (husbands or otherwise). That's what I find dangerous about the whole Vision Forum type stuff. Patriarchy is a steep and slippery slope to abuse.

 

I also get maybe being caught off guard and not quite knowing what to do in the moment. The one time I was physically attacked by a man (not saying Michelle was attacked in this case, though it was inappropriate), my husband was with me, but he froze. I was the one who fought him, got him out of my house, and called the police. My husband never moved. It certainly wasn't because he didn't want to, he just couldn't react quickly enough.

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Doulas aren't supposed to act as a midwife. It is beyond the scope of their training. A doula's job is to provide non-medical support to the mother to help her with non-pharmacological pain relief, physical and emotional support. Having worked in the birth field for a number of years, I never met a doula who intended to act as a midwife at someone's birth. Some, however, have had to do an emergency catch when a baby came much faster than expected before other help could arrive or the mom could get to her maternity care provider. Some trained midwives do act as doulas when their clients have chosen a different practitioner (like my friend who was having twins in a hospital - her midwife did not have priveleges at the hospital so she acted as a doula for her, letting the OB do his job.)

 

My midwife acted as a doula for our twin birth, too. She does have privileges and was on call that night for unattended walk-ins so she hung out with us. It was lovely having her there and since she delivered my OB's babies, they have a good relationship, too. :)
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on the kissing thing.... small typo in the previous poster's comment... Phillips not Wilson.

 

I've seen that footage. This is my take on it....Basically... at the award ceremony Doug P thought it was right and normal to kiss Michelle on the cheek and too much touching. It was kinda weird. If some man tried to kiss me like that, I'd hope my husband would stop that.

so... JB had to step in and push creepy DP away while the cameras were rolling. Michelle looked like she was about to puke from the DP actions (or at least it was clear she didn't like it...). JB had to step in there. I don't think it was a kissing contest per se, but rather... JB having to keep DP under control for a moment with body language that said "keep off my wife". that's how I saw it from the clip out there... maybe someone has link. but I'm not looking for it again.

Oh, mea culpa, it was Philips, not Wilson. And I agree that JB was using body language to assert his own claim on his wife. I just felt it unnecessary for him to lip-lock her to do so. Perhaps it's just me, but I found it unnecessary, disrespectful of Michelle and downright juvenile. But of course others may feel differently. Poor Michelle just appeared manhandled all thru that episode.

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 Not saying husband shouldn't step in if help is wanted/needed or voice his opinion, but why did JB have to posture to keep Doug P off Michelle? Michelle isn't allowed to speak up for her own personal space?

 

:ack2:  Just another reason patriarchy is disgusting and dangerous.

 

If someone is touching me inappropriately or making me feel uncomfortable, *I* am going to be the first one to shut that down, not my husband. I never want to live in a world where a woman feels she needs to defer that kind of power to her husband.

 

I don't even like Jim Bob, but in this case, I don't feel like he did anything wrong or "patriarchal."  The other guy was looking at Michelle like he was in love with her, and he was starting to behave inappropriately, so Jim Bob stepped between them. It's not like he punched the other man in the face or even openly confronted him in any way. Frankly, I thought he was both subtle and effective. 

 

As for Michelle not saying anything on her own behalf, the man didn't do anything that would have warranted a big public reaction from her. If she had slapped the guy, it would have been too much drama for a kiss on the cheek, but if she'd pulled away from him, people would be accusing her of being afraid to be touched by any man other than her husband and that she was so fearful of her husband's superior power in the relationship that she couldn't even accept a kiss on the cheek from another man. It was kind of a no-win situation for her in that respect.

 

Again, I'm totally anti-patriarchy and I'm definitely not a big fan of Jim Bob Duggar, but in this particular situation, I don't think either Jim Bob or Michelle did anything unusual or out of line. Actually, I thought they both handled the situation very gracefully. The other guy creeped me out as soon as I noticed the way he was looking at Michelle. It was like he was secretly in love with her or something.   :ack2:

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I think the internet relationship with JimBob as match maker is possibly the creepiest thing I have seen from the Duggars. This is an arranged marriage.

 

CNMs don't need to practice "under a doctor's license" bc they are licensed in their own right.

It depends on your state- for example, Massachusetts just passed the law in 2012 so that CNMs no longer need physician oversight and supervision, and some states are following. However in states without that specific provision (most), ALL non-physician providers (nurse practitioners, PAs and CNMs, all of which are licensed under their own board) are directly supervised by a physician for prescribing power of any medication (and in one or two states, they are unable to prescribe medications, period).

 

http://capsules.kaiserhealthnews.org/index.php/2012/02/mass-nurse-midwives-no-longer-need-physician-ok-to-practice

This article explains the change in Mass. and what the situation for CNMs under the supervision of physicians was before this new law (and still is in most states).

 

Eta: a quote from the ANA regarding advanced practice RNs (APRNs) to explain more thoroughly.

"The Physician Relationship

Each individual state's board of nursing is responsible for laying out scopes of practice for health care practitioners. Some are very specific, while others are general enough for standards to evolve without the need for new legislation. The degree of physician supervision varies widely. For example, Washington and Oregon allow APRNs to practice unsupervised. In California and Texas, CNMs can only diagnose and prescribe under the supervision of a physician, while Oklahoma doesn't let them prescribe at all. Degrees of supervision also vary. Some states require direct supervision, others accept periodic reviews, and some require written collaboration agreements between each CNM and a specific physician."

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. I just felt it unnecessary for him to lip-lock her to do so. Perhaps it's just me,

 

nope...not just you. I agree on that. I had forgotten that part of it until I watched the clip again.   

 

I still get so creeped out from the hand on face and lip on cheek from DP.  I doubt I would have had any dignity in that moment.I would have frozen on stage.  But in my mind, when I played it back later..... hmmm.. what would my snarky come back be?   

hmmm... I know....   giggle....   I'd go Lucy Van Pelt after Snoopy kisses her.  LOL.   "ewwwwwwwwwwww I"ve been kissed by a dog!"

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Absolutely (in terms of teamwork and backing each other up). Perhaps it's more the ick factor of the likes of Doug Philips, and knowing that a lot of women don't stand up for themselves because they have been led to believe it's not their place to speak up and that they must obey the men in their lives (husbands or otherwise). That's what I find dangerous about the whole Vision Forum type stuff. Patriarchy is a steep and slippery slope to abuse.

 

I also get maybe being caught off guard and not quite knowing what to do in the moment. The one time I was physically attacked by a man (not saying Michelle was attacked in this case, though it was inappropriate), my husband was with me, but he froze. I was the one who fought him, got him out of my house, and called the police. My husband never moved. It certainly wasn't because he didn't want to, he just couldn't react quickly enough.

I agree and I guess I am thinking about the appropriate mindset I would like my daughter to have. There may be many years before she marries; she may never marry. I don't want her thinking she must rely on men for protection, she should be able to assert herself when necessary.

 

When she meets the right guy and they bond together into a team that seeks the best for each other? Yes, that would be wonderful, and I would expect them to defend one another. I suppose I just interpreted JB's act as more of a "take that" to DP rather than a protective action towards his wife.

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I don't even like Jim Bob, but in this case, I don't feel like he did anything wrong or "patriarchal."  The other guy was looking at Michelle like he was in love with her, and he was starting to behave inappropriately, so Jim Bob stepped between them. It's not like he punched the other man in the face or even openly confronted him in any way. Frankly, I thought he was both subtle and effective. 

 

As for Michelle not saying anything on her own behalf, the man didn't do anything that would have warranted a big public reaction from her. If she had slapped the guy, it would have been too much drama for a kiss on the cheek, but if she'd pulled away from him, people would be accusing her of being afraid to be touched by any man other than her husband and that she was so fearful of her husband's superior power in the relationship that she couldn't even accept a kiss on the cheek from another man. It was kind of a no-win situation for her in that respect.

 

Again, I'm totally anti-patriarchy and I'm definitely not a big fan of Jim Bob Duggar, but in this particular situation, I don't think either Jim Bob or Michelle did anything unusual or out of line. Actually, I thought they both handled the situation very gracefully. The other guy creeped me out as soon as I noticed the way he was looking at Michelle. It was like he was secretly in love with her or something.   :ack2:

YUP! And for what it's worth, it is a DP problem pure and simple. I mean, I am about as anti-patriarchy as people get on this board, and I can tell you that having met a lot of patriarchial guys, they aren't trained to be creeps nor come by creepiness naturally. DP is a creep. If you google images of DP at Peter Bradrick's wedding, you'll see him leering creepily at the bride WHILE HE OFFICIATES THE WEDDING!!!!, or pictures of DP and Lourdes Torres, or DP and .... Shoot, there is picture of DP with a young man that worked in their organization (can't remember if it is Peter or one of the others) sitting in a pew together and DP is WAY inappropriately close with his arm around the kid and looking like he's in deep love. It's so sick. DP, just simply put, is a pervert in my opinion. The one thing I"v never seen in all of these years of pictures of Vision Forum conferences and San Antonio Christian Film Festivals is DP photographed looking madly in love with his wife. Except for the requisite family photo with everyone lined up and posed, staring at the camera, you don't see pics of DP with Belle much at all. Yet, he's always seen kissing some other woman on the cheek, his arm around some girl, hugging some female, and frankly, the same kind of thing with the young men as well. It's the kind of thing that makes one's skin crawl.

 

So, I think Michelle was probably VERY uncomfortable and trying to figure out how to avoid slurpy face and not make a scene. She and Jim Bob are obviously very in love, and JB - who by the way have no affinity for - picked up on the cues from Mr. Creepy - and kind of shielded her a little bit without making a big show of it. It was a smart move, and not too obvious to the audience who would for the most part not been close enough so see MIchelle's body or facial cues up close.

 

Today there was an engagement announcement on Yahoo for Jill and the boy from Nepal...can't remember his name. MEH....I have issues, HUGE issues with arranged marriages, and the reality is that it smacks of either an arranged marriage or at least one in which there was enough parental intervention in the boundaries and communications between these two perfectly legal adults, that it is an "engineered" marriage.

 

To each their own, but the skeptic in me has to wonder how much wheeling and dealing there was from TLC behind the scenes to produce a Duggar wedding this year in order to keep the ratings up...if one of those girls didn't get married soon, with Michelle appearing to have waning fertility and the oldest boy with his wife now living out of state, it's possible that they needed more material. With reality t.v. shows, I have to believe a lot of this stuff is manipulated from behind the scenes...money must be made, advertisers kept happy.

 

I wish Jill and Ben (?) all the best even though I don't agree with the interference in their relationship.

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oh wow, I had never noticed that between DP and JB!! Ewwww that was so gross and awkward. I don't think JB did anything wrong, I agree with what Catwoman said about it. I'm a JB fan though, I think he's cute and funny. But the kisses he's planting on Michelle all the time would annoy the heck out of me, they don't seem to bother her though.

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To be clear, I am not judging Jim Bob for stepping in between Michelle and creepy Doug P in that one instance; I'm turned off by the idea that she is some sort of voiceless piece of property, that she is Jim Bob's with an apostrophe s to protect/defend. That's just the impression I get. This one instance wouldn't necessarily give me that impression itself if it weren't known that they are Gothard/ATI/Vision Forum followers. Yes, I am probably projecting a bit on account of that.

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You know what kind of creeps me out? I just looked at several photos of Jana, Jessa, Jill, and Jinger together and well, it kind of scares me. They have the same hair...one girl's is slightly longer and ever so slightly curlier, but it is the same hairstyle for all four. They all hold their head the same way...and frankly...it's the same pose and look that the Botkin sisters have at every Vision Forum event. Same. I kid you not...between those four and Botkin girls, they could be sextuplets. Even the make-up colors are the same...same pale pink on the cheeks and lips, same color foundation or powder, same nude and pink combo shades on the eyes, you name it. Their pose and body language is EXACTLY like the Botkin sisters, the most famous maidens of the dominionist world.

 

Not an ounce of individuality. I mean the girls are lookers, big time lookers, and with daddy making a boatload off the show (TLC said a couple of years ago that they pay $95,000 per episode and $100,000 per special) and the notoriety they have, I'm sure this means they are little prizes for patriarchial boys. But, I just have to worry about any young adult who does not appear to have an individual identity. Don't any of them want different make-up, hair, a look that isn't same as their sister?

 

 

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Oh wow.  Super creepy.  The way that Doug guys keeps moving the microphone away so he could move in on Michelle is uber icky.  I think her husband Jim handled it appropriately.  

 

Really I can't think of any situation where I won an award where it would have been appropriate to get a kiss. I take that back.  If it was my dad or my husband or my son presenting the award.  Otherwise the list of men that it would be acceptable for me to get a kiss from is zero.  

 

Yuck.

 

I should add that I don't know these people because we don't watch TV and are Catholic so we aren't familiar with the people involved in the conservative Protestant wing.  

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