Using Novels/Literature for Personal Refinement

[veritas]

Several months ago, I read about a genre of literature entitled "the novels of manners." This genre was most popular during the 1800s, and its chief focus is the examination of manners and proper social conduct. In addition, the novels were often written and read by members of the upper class. Here's a brief description from Wikipedia:

 

 

 

Books and notes in this period instructing one how to behave in society are countless. In particular, Lord Chesterfield's letters to his son are a prime example to anyone concerned with propriety. He instructs his son to engage society in a pleasing manner which includes avoiding possibly offensive or controversial subjects, speaking in peaceful tones, and acquiring a poised posture, all in consideration of the company one is in. This obsession with proper social conduct spawned a wave of novels concerned with this sort of behaviour. In 1778, Frances Burney wrote Evelina, one of the first legitimate novels of manners. Social behaviour in public and private settings accounts for much of the plot of Evelina. This is mirrored in other novels that were more highly popularised in the beginning of the 19th century.

 

 

 

This makes me wonder--could one use such books for personal refinement?

I understand that there's etiquette books and classes...But if one wants to go even deeper, could novels/literature be at all helpful? For, I imagine that, with good novels/literature, you actually get to see examples of well-mannered in action--you get to see how they talk and exactly what they say, you get to listen to their innermost thoughts (something you don't often get in real life), and you get to read about how others perceive them.

It always help to have role models.

[Isabella]

I'm certain they could help, but I think more helpful is being around people who are models of that type of behaviour in real life.  I have a friend who has exemplary social skills - quiet, not intrusive, never introduces or bites at controversial topics, graciously steers the conversation to safer areas, never talks of anyone except in positive tones, includes everyone without awkwardness.  I always learn a lot by being around her.  I think novels outlining the same type of behaviour sink in to a degree, but probably it's harder to actually assimilate that behaviour by reading about it, than by living with it.

 

[Danestress]

I think literature often helps us be better people.  Not just with manners - I think sometimes in literature "manners" actually represent a face we show the world that may or may not reflect inner character.  It can go both ways in literature.  Also, manners vary from culture to culture, but real goodness often transcends culture, so we can draw things from literature of various times and places.  Victorian manners can seem very foreign to a reader today, but the bigger themes that good fictions can explore (things like finding redemption for wrongdoing, deciding how much to live by one's own desires versus what the world expects, reconciling with death, balancing the needs of secrecy and truth, finding meaning) are more universal. 

 

In fact, I can imagine a very fun novel about a reader who wants to refine her manners by reading literature from the past, but who misses how all the bigger themes in that literature could enrich her actual life.  It would be fun to try to brainstorm fiction that would be good to use in that novel! 

[Stacia]

An article you might enjoy:

http://ideas.time.com/2013/06/03/why-we-should-read-literature/

[regentrude]

He instructs his son to engage society in a pleasing manner which includes avoiding possibly offensive or controversial subjects,

 

How can one ever have any sort of meaningful conversation when all that is exchanged are pleasantries and all controversial subjects are exempt?

I found the most interesting, involved, and lively discussions to require a controversial subject - if everybody agrees on everything, no exchange of ideas is possible.

This would not be a trait that I would choose to model, nor have modeled. On the contrary, I would like my children to see good role models of spirited, animated discussion of controversy where the debaters remain civil and refrain from personal attack despite vastly differing opinions. That is fun.

[brehon]

How can one ever have any sort of meaningful conversation when all that is exchanged are pleasantries and all controversial subjects are exempt?
I found the most interesting, involved, and lively discussions to require a controversial subject - if everybody agrees on everything, no exchange of ideas is possible.
This would not be a trait that I would choose to model, nor have modeled. On the contrary, I would like my children to see good role models of spirited, animated discussion of controversy where the debaters remain civil and refrain from personal attack despite vastly differing opinions. That is fun.

I agree with you to a point. I think the types of conversations you spoke of are best had with a small group of friends and/or family, preferably with a glass of wine or port at hand. Note that this intimate group need not be of like mind on all subjects. Indeed, my own (very) small group of intimate friends have a variety of opinions on any given subject.

I think, however, that engaging in controversial topics at large social gatherings, especially when people don't know each other very well, is fraught with peril. In those situations I think Lord Chesterson's advice is spot on.

I agree that it would be nice if everyone could engage in spirited debates and conversations without assuming or taking offense. My personal experience leads me to believe, however, that it is a dying art in the general populace.

[Danestress]

I agree with you to a point. I think the types of conversations you spoke of are best had with a small group of friends and/or family, preferably with a glass of wine or port at hand. Note that this intimate group need not be of like mind on all subjects. Indeed, my own (very) small group of intimate friends have a variety of opinions on any given subject.

I think, however, that engaging in controversial topics at large social gatherings, especially when people don't know each other very well, is fraught with peril. In those situations I think Lord Chesterson's advice is spot on.

I agree that it would be nice if everyone could engage in spirited debates and conversations without assuming or taking offense. My personal experience leads me to believe, however, that it is a dying art in the general populace.

I heard an awesome, "This American Life" episode in which a producer interviewed her mother on the mother's list of seven things that one must never discuss. The daughter had been raised with this list as the defining list of topics 'too boring to discuss.' They were

your health

your dreams

how your sleep life has been

money

your period

food and diet (as in, what foods you don't eat or are trying to cut out or think are the cause of all human illness)

and route talk (ie, how you got here, whether you got lost or found it easily, whether flight was delayed, etc).

These were all forbidden as being really boring and tedious, except for talking about money, which can actually be interesting but is forbidden as being tacky).

So the producer got her mother to discuss this list and how she developed it, and then they tried to produce stories on these topics to see if they could make ones that were not boring. So, for example, they interviewed an astronaut about how she slept on the space station - which I thought really was interesting.

I think about this a lot. I find most people talk about these things A LOT, and mostly can make for incredibly dull conversations. Thanksgiving dinner in my extended family can be hours of route talk, food talk, and talk about pets. It's interesting to me, by the way, that this woman didn't tell her daughter that it can be really boring to listen to someone talk about their children and pets:)
While I agree with you that it can be "too much" to have heated (even if friendly) debates in crowded situations or situations where you need to move around and talk to a number of people, it's also best to avoid boring subjects. I'm not always sure how to be not boring but to not stir up arguments. When in doubt, I just try to think, "What does this person know that I don't know" and then I try to get that out of them. So I ask a lot of questions about their work or hobbies or travel, and see what I can learn new. Sometimes it's still boring, lol.

[stripe]

How can one ever have any sort of meaningful conversation when all that is exchanged are pleasantries and all controversial subjects are exempt?

(Cough) But you're German! Of course you like meaningful conversations!

 

I was reading Cranford recently; the first chapter contains this:

 

Then there were rules and regulations for visiting and calls; and they were announced to any young people who might be staying in the town, with all the solemnity with which the old Manx laws were read once a year on the Tinwald Mount.

“Our friends have sent to inquire how you are after your journey to-night, my dear” (fifteen miles in a gentleman’s carriage); “they will give you some rest to-morrow, but the next day, I have no doubt, they will call; so be at liberty after twelve—from twelve to three are our calling hours.”

Then, after they had called—

“It is the third day; I dare say your mamma has told you, my dear, never to let more than three days elapse between receiving a call and returning it; and also, that you are never to stay longer than a quarter of an hour.”

“But am I to look at my watch?  How am I to find out when a quarter of an hour has passed?”

“You must keep thinking about the time, my dear, and not allow yourself to forget it in conversation.”

As everybody had this rule in their minds, whether they received or paid a call, of course no absorbing subject was ever spoken about.  We kept ourselves to short sentences of small talk, and were punctual to our time.

[veritas]

I'm certain they could help, but I think more helpful is being around people who are models of that type of behaviour in real life.  I have a friend who has exemplary social skills - quiet, not intrusive, never introduces or bites at controversial topics, graciously steers the conversation to safer areas, never talks of anyone except in positive tones, includes everyone without awkwardness.  I always learn a lot by being around her.  I think novels outlining the same type of behaviour sink in to a degree, but probably it's harder to actually assimilate that behaviour by reading about it, than by living with it.

 

 

How I wish that I had such people in my life!

 

But, alas, I don't. 

[brehon]

I heard an awesome, "This American Life" episode in which a producer interviewed her mother on the mother's list of seven things that one must never discuss. The daughter had been raised with this list as the defining list of topics 'too boring to discuss.' They were

your health

your dreams

how your sleep life has been

money

your period

food and diet (as in, what foods you don't eat or are trying to cut out or think are the cause of all human illness)

and route talk (ie, how you got here, whether you got lost or found it easily, whether flight was delayed, etc).

These were all forbidden as being really boring and tedious, except for talking about money, which can actually be interesting but is forbidden as being tacky).

So the producer got her mother to discuss this list and how she developed it, and then they tried produced stories on these topics to see if they could make ones that were not boring. So, for example, they interviewed an astronaut about how she slept on the space station. Which I thought really was interesting.

I think about this a lot. I find most people talk about these things A LOT, and mostly can make for incredibly dull conversations. Thanksgiving dinner in my extended family can be hours of route talk, food talk, and talk about pets. It's interesting to me, by the way, that this woman didn't tell her daughter that it can be really boring to listen to someone talk about their children and pets:)
While I agree with you that it can be "too much" to have heated (even if friendly) debates in crowded situations or situations where you need to move around and talk to a number of people, it's also best to avoid boring subjects. I'm not always sure how to be not boring but to not stir up arguments. When in doubt, I just try to think, "What does this person know that I don't know" and then I try to get that out of them. So I ask a lot of questions about their work or hobbies or travel, and see what I can learn new. Sometimes it's still boring, lol.

I bet that episode was great! I must have missed it. I agree with you and Regentrude that some topics of conversation are beyond boring.

On my dad's side of the family we talked <cough argued cough> about every blessed thing. It was and is stimulating and fun; however, there were times when feelings were hurt because the ripostes and rejoinders became too personal. We're Italians...what can I say.

On my mom's side we mainly discussed the Cowboys and Longhorns - how well they played; opinions of the coaching staffs; etc. These conversations took place both during the teams respective seasons and during the off-seasons. All football, all the time. It was like ESPN before it existed.

Meh. I'm in a reflective mood today and rambling. Suffice it to say I think there's a line between controversial and boring.

[veritas]

An article you might enjoy:

http://ideas.time.com/2013/06/03/why-we-should-read-literature/

 

 

Thank you so much for sharing this article with me

[Stacia]

Thank you so much for sharing this article with me

 

You're welcome. It's funny... I was just perusing this list which would go along quite well w/ the previous article & your original post...

http://flavorwire.com/433188/50-novels-guaranteed-to-make-you-a-better-person/view-all/