Judgemental post. Do you know anyone who homeschools, and you think they might be doing more harm...

[amselby81]

I might get flamed for this post.  Do you know anyone who might be doing more harm to their child than good?  I'm not necessarily saying that they should send their child to public school, but they really have absolutely no idea what they are doing. 

 

I have a friend who has a son who has a late birthday.  He turned 7 in October.  She started him in K early, when he was 4 almost 5.  That's not a big deal, but she bought K books from Abeka, and he didn't complete any of the books.  Instead of having him work through the K books, she just bumped him up to the first grade books the next year.  Again, he didn't finish his books.  I don't even think he did half of the books.  But again, she bumped him up into 2nd grade this year.  She was stressing out because he can't read and he can't write.  She hired a tutor.  The tutor started working with him in K level books, and my friend felt like it was a total waste of money to hire this tutor because her son should be reading 2nd grade level books.  I tried to explain to my friend that the tutor is probably starting him out in the lower level books to help build his confidence.  He can't read the 2nd grade books.  He needs to work his way up.  Anyway, she has fired the tutor and said that they're just going to keep trudging on.  A day of school work is really bad.  He won't focus, and he gets really upset.  She said that she got so frustrated with the way he was acting today, that she just sent him to his room to take a nap.  I want to tell her that he's probably acting out because the work is too hard for him!  That's what the tutor told her too, and that's what I was trying to tell her when I said that it was a good idea to have him read K level books.  She will probably just push him on to 3rd grade next year, and have him work on 3rd grade level books which will be REALLY challenging for him if he doesn't master the 2nd grade material. 

 

I know.  He's not my kid, and it's none of my business.  I just feel really bad for him. 

[Freckles]

To answer your question, yes.

[ElizabethB]

That is tough.  

 

But, I do have some suggestions!

 

My online phonics lessons.  They start at the beginning but have a big label 2nd grade and up!

 

For math: have him take the ADAM K-7 test, then have him watch through the linked Khan Academy videos where he is below grade level.  While I don't normally like MUS overall, it might be easier for her to get done because it is video and it doesn't have grade levels but instead letters, you could suggest he try that after the ADAM K-7 stuff and take a placement test for it.

 

http://www.letsgolearn.com/lglsite/ADAM_math/parents/

 

I would also try to slowly and gently talk about working where they are at, although it sounds like you have tried that!!  Maybe say the same thing but keep rephrasing it...

[Slache]

I know one too. She seems to have put her own priorities first and completely abandoned her daughter. It's hard.

[Arcadia]

.  The tutor started working with him in K level books, and my friend felt like it was a total waste of money to hire this tutor because her son should be reading 2nd grade level books. 

 

Does your area have the free reading tutors program, your library would usually have the information? The free tutor usually meet the child at the library or café like Starbucks and teach the child to read.  That way your friend would not be spending any money and her child would get help.  Also the tutor sits with the child without the parent hovering so it does not matter what level the materials the tutors is using since your friend won't be looking on.

How is your friend's child with math?  It might just be too much sit down work as well.

 

As to finishing the books, my kids miss out pages on their history and grammar because I forgot.  My 9 year old 4th grader has his birthday right before cut-off.   The only problem I see is that your friend's child isn't reading and your friend is just doing "social promotion" by upping his books every year.  He might just be a late reader but it is always good to rule out any other issues.

[mommymilkies]

Well, we almost never do all the pages in books and my kids scored in the 99th% and are doing fine. :)  That said, yes I do know some.  All kids get forgetful sometimes and we don't really see the whole picture, so I try to abstain from judgement. 

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

I know one family who I think their homeschooling choices are doing more harm than good. I stay out of it though. Otherwise they are a caring loving family. I think that they will end up quitting homeschooling so I'm not overly concerned.

[foxbridgeacademy]

 Yep, BTDT. I did my best to offer advice on possible options but she could never stick with one thing more then a couple weeks.  I'm a bit of a curriculum hopper so I can't throw any stones, so to speak.  I think her DC would have done much better if she had just stuck with a few things for at least a couple months.  Other then offering gentle advice not much you can do.

[amselby81]

Does your area have the free reading tutors program, your library would usually have the information? The free tutor usually meet the child at the library or café like Starbucks and teach the child to read.  That way your friend would not be spending any money and her child would get help.  Also the tutor sits with the child without the parent hovering so it does not matter what level the materials the tutors is using since your friend won't be looking on.

How is your friend's child with math?  It might just be too much sit down work as well.

 

I really am not sure how he's doing with math.  She complains mostly about reading, but it does sound like all of his school work might be a challenge.  She's determined that he must have ADD, since he can't focus on his school work.  She's not medicating him, but is trying essential oils to help him focus. 

 

I don't know of a program like that in our area.

[CrunchyGirl]

Yes, several. Many people are not cut out to home school just like some kids aren't cut out for public school, or private school, etc.

[Arcadia]

 

I don't know of a program like that in our area.

 

Below is a common description of reading tutors programs in the libraries here just so you have an idea what to ask about if you call your library.

 

"As a tutor you will be expected to:

• Attend 14 hours of initial tutor training
• Tutor 3 hours per week for a minimum of 6 months
• Submit monthly hours reports
• Meet in a library or other public place for tutoring sessions

PAR tutors receive:

• Free instructional materials
• Professional development and support through tutor support meetings, in-service workshops, and individual consultation with staff"

School districts would do a free evaluation for ADD if she is open to that. We opt for a private evaluation for my 8 year old, insurance pays most of the cost.

[ElizabethB]

Oh, besides the videos, you could also have her try Webster's Speller--phonics to a 12th grade level, but you have to start at the beginning since it's a different system!  Idiot proof instructions in link #1 near the end.

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/WellTaughtPhonicsStudent.html

 

I like these charts to use with the program, not necessary but they make it a lot easier:

 

https://www.phonovisual.com/products.php?id=207

 

https://www.phonovisual.com/products.php?id=205

 

 

[amselby81]

Well, we almost never do all the pages in books and my kids scored in the 99th% and are doing fine. :)  That said, yes I do know some.  All kids get forgetful sometimes and we don't really see the whole picture, so I try to abstain from judgement. 

 

It's more than just not finishing the books.  I've babysat for her before, and when I go to check his work, I see that he skips sections of work when he doesn't know how to do it.  When I have flipped through his book, I see where he's skipped whole pages and I've asked her about it.  First off, she doesn't actually teach it.  She just gives him the book and expects him to do it.  If he doesn't understand, they just move on. 

[umsami]

It's more than just not finishing the books.  I've babysat for her before, and when I go to check his work, I see that he skips sections of work when he doesn't know how to do it.  When I have flipped through his book, I see where he's skipped whole pages and I've asked her about it.  First off, she doesn't actually teach it.  She just gives him the book and expects him to do it.  If he doesn't understand, they just move on. 

 

It sounds like she has no idea how to homeschool a kid.  She think that homeschooling means you give them the book, and they do the work…and that's it.  She forgets that she's supposed to replace the teacher, especially at the younger ages.

 

It's sad.  I have no idea what to tell you.  Is there a way to express your concerns and try and model maybe teaching him? Or say something along the lines that grade level doesn't matter…especially at this age.

[LucyStoner]

Yes. And it is usually the parents who expect way too much independent seat work out of their way too young children. Homeschooling parents need to be educators, not just purchasers of workbooks, pamphlets and curriculum they will never use.

[abba12]

Yes, yes, and yes again. Having been homeschooled as a child myself, we met a number of the nuttier families from the 80s and 90s homeschooling era.

 

One child didn't read until he was 11 or 12 (and not because they were strong 'better late than early' types who planned that method, just because they were busy with the family business and didn't get around to it)

One child who is now an adult never progressed past fractions because she 'got stuck'. I don't think everyone needs trigonometry, but fractions? Surely that comes under core required knowledge for adult life.

Neither of these children were ever assessed for learning disabilities, because to this family, LD apparently don't exist, they're just another way to control public school kids apparently. I don't believe the first child has any issues other than a lack of an attentive teacher, but I strongly suspect the second child did have a learning issue.

I've also seen the instances of 'natural learning' (now unschooling) gone horribly wrong. I have come to respect unschooling as a valid method after finally meeting some families doing it right, but only if the parents understand it. In these instances, the parents used it as a label to do, literally, nothing. And since they didn't use the library or internet and shunned all outside contact... the kids haven't fared well unfortunately. 

 

The good news is that the first child is catching up. He can never make back those years of education but he should graduate with something close to the core level of knowledge of an 8th grader and he reads somewhere around a 4th grade level last time I heard him (he's 14). The second child happened to have an amazing talent for art so she has been able to focus on that and avoid the 'need' for academics altogether. The natural learners? Well one family is travelling Australia in a camper van waiting for the apocalypse to come any day now. Another family is... a mess.

 

Yes, there are some families who should not be homeschooling and these are the families that cause the excess laws and regulations which make it hard for the rest of us. But, what can we do about it? Not much on a large scale without jeopardizing our own freedoms I suppose. On a personal level? In my experience these sorts of parents aren't too receptive to advice.

 

[amselby81]

 In my experience these sorts of parents aren't too receptive to advice.

 

I don't think she is.  About the K level readers, she was just complaining about how baby'ish the books were, and that it was a waste for the tutor to go back to that.  And when I told her that I agreed with the tutor, that the easier books were probably good for him, she just had an uncomfortable smile.  And now I find out a month after having this conversation that she fired the tutor.  She obviously didn't take what I said seriously. 

[idnib]

I think you should buy a few books and have them rebound at Kinko's with the "3rd grade" covers on the K level books. (Not the books she already has, something different so she doesn't know well. Hey, desperate times and all that...

 

I'm only somewhat joking. This is sad.

[fdrinca]

Yep, this sounds like a mom I very much like who is probably overwhelmed by her life right now. It's hard to know how to help in situations like that. I can't think of a way to offer my help without coming across as judgmental, especially since she is aware of her failings and is bothered by them. 

[ElizabethB]

:grouphug:

I can e-mail you a PDF of Webster's Speller with a big "Phonics and Spelling to the 12th grade level" on the cover or verbage of your choice, LOL. And, my online phonics lessons would teach what was neeed to help figure out how to use the speller. My online phonics lessons also teach up to a 12th grade level and teach syllables, but most young children cannot process that all at once.

[Soror]

Unfortunately I know several, some that are severely behind and will likely never catch up because academics is not a priority and teaching takes too much time, so they just call it unschooling. I just ignore it for the most part, for those that I am close to I gently and not so gently bring it up whenever there is a chance. I feel an obligation to try and help those that I love and I expect they would do the same for me. Of course you cannot make anyone do anything though I don't regret speaking up and I've yet to offend. Keep trying to help!

[Dory]

Yes I know a couple and their struggles are completely different, but they both make me cringe.

[Audrey]

Yes.  A few anti-intellectuals I can think of, for starters.

[Mom-ninja.]

I know a mom whose child shows many signs of dyslexia, but her husband will not allow her to address it. The child is not allowed to be evaluated nor is she allowed to accommodate him. Her husband says "no labels and no weakness".

[HS Mom in NC]

Yes.  One family.

 

I think somehow some people got the idea that if you toss a kid a textbook at the kitchen table they'll magically learn things and place first in the national spelling bee. I blame a little of it on some homeschool convention speakers.  Sometimes there's too much "every kid is wired to learn" and "home is the best environment" so a certain type of person assumes parents don't really need to take an active role in teaching.  I think some homeschooling PR accidentally sends the message that "any idiot can homeschool."  Too many veterans are so afraid of scaring off insecure new homeschoolers that they paint things a little too rosy and neglect balancing it with the fact that homeschooling is hard sometimes.

[Mergath]

OP, are you in a state that requires any kind of standardized testing at some point?  If not, maybe you could suggest it?  Perhaps if she had him tested and he scored way below grade level in everything, it would force her to admit that what they're doing isn't working.

[idnib]

I know an unschooling family whose kids are behind in most academic areas but blow most kids out of the water with other skills. Competitive swimming, house building, sewing, cooking, running a business, martial arts, gardening, etc. I don't know how to feel about them at all. I go back and forth between awe and frustration.  :laugh:

 

I think the rubber is going to meet the road soon, though, because one of the kids wants to move to a magnet school and I think they're going to find out the hard way how much other families have prepared. I don't think this kid is going to get in. I would love to be wrong.

 

I can't say yet if they're doing more harm then good. It'll depend on the kids' long-term plans. I do strongly feel they have shut many doors for short-term plans though, at least academic plans. I'm less of a "when one door closes, another opens" kind of person and more of a "leave as many doors open as you can, until you almost catch your fingers in them before they slam shut" kinda gal.

 

[Kerileanne99]

Oh, I do. And this is a very uncomfortable situation at the age of my dd/her dd...an older child like this one must be so hard watch struggle:(

I have a 'friend' with mental health issues. Her dd is approximately 7 months older than mine and she insists on constantly comparing the two. As awful as that is, my dd is extremely advanced/accelerated and primarily homeschooled (term used loosely here as my dd is only 4!). The rub is that due to her mental health issues, friend has kept her dd home from any sort of preschool, but not done ANYTHING at all with her. Still, good parenting COULD probably meet the need IF said friend was not convinced her child was a genius and needed no instruction at all! She 'KNOWS' her child can read despite all evidence to the contrary. She KNOWS her daughter knows all math through all arithmetic despite evidence. She just insists her daughter is stubborn and doesn't want to show it:(

Ugh. I have watched this kid and she doesn't even know the first letters of words. It is a dreadful situation because there is no convincing mom...but she is convinced that homeschooling is the only way because her child is 'a genius' (no testing either) and will self-teach...because that is what geniuses do?!
I have tried to be subtle. I have tried to share ideas or programs. There is only so much you can do:(
It is so unfair, and honestly, only time will tell if it qualifies as educational neglect/abuse.
Good luck, and I hope you have more luck than I have.

[kolamum]

Would she respond well to you teaching him, do you think? I mean, what if you offered to have him in your home for x hours a day just so you could teach/tutor him. I'd be willing to bet he'll struggle with inferiority complex issues & feelings of worthlessness if they aren't helped. Are you in an area where someone overlooks what's going on?

[Heidi]

Yes, two families. It is hard to watch.

[creekland]

Yes. And it is usually the parents who expect way too much independent seat work out of their way too young children. Homeschooling parents need to be educators, not just purchasers of workbooks, pamphlets and curriculum they will never use.

 

I don't know any IRL, but I do see results when the parents give up and send their kids to ps... it's almost always like you said.  Parent buys workbooks, hands them to kid, expects work, and little actual learning goes on.  Parents can then get mad when "their" child doesn't get placed in high or average level classes.  They can't be there.  They don't have the educational foundation.

 

It's a big part of why many ps educators do not like homeschooling.  They tend to only see those where it failed.  They rarely see those where it works well.

 

FWIW, we HAVE had a couple of families who have sent well prepared homeschoolers to high school and they've done REALLY well.  They just aren't the majority who get sent to school in our area.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

I do feel that way about certain homeschooling families I've met.  I think their kids are going to be at a huge disadvantage to others when it comes time to find employment.

 

 

[kwickimom]

sadly, I know a bunch of people that are homeschooling and doing their kids a disservice. 

[Prairie~Phlox]

My sil probably thinks we are, however she lives four states away, we only see her 1-2 times a year. I 'm sure just in her mind, that's what she assumes.

[Ellie]

It's more than just not finishing the books.  I've babysat for her before, and when I go to check his work, I see that he skips sections of work when he doesn't know how to do it.  When I have flipped through his book, I see where he's skipped whole pages and I've asked her about it.  First off, she doesn't actually teach it.  She just gives him the book and expects him to do it.  If he doesn't understand, they just move on. 

 

:huh:

 

In California and some other states, he makes the cut-off to enter kindergarten or first grade that young, so that doesn't bother me so much.

 

The other stuff bugs me, though. If she were a good friend of mine, I'd probably have to say something, and it might not be pretty.

[AimeeM]

Yes, I have.

[Bensmom]

As more families are leaving public education and turning to "homeschool", I am seeing more of this. There seems to be a growing population who believe you can give a child a stack of books or computer program and forget about it and they will be educated. Here in Okla. we do not have checks and balances. While not having to report anything is nice, I think I would rather see us move to mandatory annual testing or reporting of some kind to stop educational neglect. It is so heartbreaking. These children may pay the consequences the rest of their lives!

[creekland]

My sil probably thinks we are, however she lives four states away, we only see her 1-2 times a year. I 'm sure just in her mind, that's what she assumes.

 

There are many people who still think that ANYONE who homeschools their kids is doing more harm...

 

But then there are real cases with real "evidence" of kids not getting even a reasonably basic (for their ability) education.  This definitely doesn't mean they need to be at the "top" as certainly not all ps kids are at the top either.  Ditto that with "average."  But there should be basics and opportunities in accordance with their abilities (and sometimes situations - medical, etc) IMO.

 

The former I don't worry about... to each their own... and they can ignore the evidence that homeschoolers often do VERY well if they insist on doing so.

 

The latter... well, I feel sorry for their kids and angry at their parents.  Having an education, to me, is a RIGHT.

[amselby81]

Would she respond well to you teaching him, do you think? I mean, what if you offered to have him in your home for x hours a day just so you could teach/tutor him. I'd be willing to bet he'll struggle with inferiority complex issues & feelings of worthlessness if they aren't helped. Are you in an area where someone overlooks what's going on?

I'm expecting a baby this month, so I'm not really in a position where I can take on schooling someone else's child. We live in WV, and we have the option to get a portfolio review by a licensed reviewer (someone with teacher certification) or we can have our children take an achievement test. She chooses to get the portfolio review by a lady at her church. I don't know if the lady is just really nice when it comes to the portfolio review? I will say that she is a public school teacher and she has expressed that she believes homeschooling is inferior to public school.

[creekland]

 While not having to report anything is nice, I think I would rather see us move to mandatory annual testing or reporting of some kind to stop educational neglect. It is so heartbreaking. These children may pay the consequences the rest of their lives!

 

And I have never regretted PA's stance on testing and evaluators for this reason.  Sure, some will still fall through the cracks, but hopefully not as many.  It's also a bonus when applying for college as college admissions folks have told us they are more trusting of states with testing and regs/evaluations than they are of states without them.  (Kids from states without regs can still get into colleges, of course, they just often have to prove more or describe their courses more.  We didn't need a single course description.)

[Library Momma]

Oh, I do. And this is a very uncomfortable situation at the age of my dd/her dd...an older child like this one must be so hard watch struggle:(

I have a 'friend' with mental health issues. Her dd is approximately 7 months older than mine and she insists on constantly comparing the two. As awful as that is, my dd is extremely advanced/accelerated and primarily homeschooled (term used loosely here as my dd is only 4!). The rub is that due to her mental health issues, friend has kept her dd home from any sort of preschool, but not done ANYTHING at all with her. Still, good parenting COULD probably meet the need IF said friend was not convinced her child was a genius and needed no instruction at all! She 'KNOWS' her child can read despite all evidence to the contrary. She KNOWS her daughter knows all math through all arithmetic despite evidence. She just insists her daughter is stubborn and doesn't want to show it:(

Ugh. I have watched this kid and she doesn't even know the first letters of words. It is a dreadful situation because there is no convincing mom...but she is convinced that homeschooling is the only way because her child is 'a genius' (no testing either) and will self-teach...because that is what geniuses do?!
I have tried to be subtle. I have tried to share ideas or programs. There is only so much you can do:(
It is so unfair, and honestly, only time will tell if it qualifies as educational neglect/abuse.
Good luck, and I hope you have more luck than I have.

 

I know a similar mother.  She is obsessed with the fact that her son is "gifted" because he knows absolutely everything there is to know about dinosaurs.  he's been obsessed with dinosaurs since a young age and now at 12 he is still rattling off obscure dinosaur facts and has competed in a national paleo bowl.  The problem is he writes on a first grade level with simple sentences and poor spelling.  He still reverses some of his letters and his math isn't much better.  I think that perhaps he is on the spectrum possibly AS but the mother can't see past his "giftedness."  I feel for this child.

[Ellie]

And I have never regretted PA's stance on testing and evaluators for this reason.  Sure, some will still fall through the cracks, but hopefully not as many.  It's also a bonus when applying for college as college admissions folks have told us they are more trusting of states with testing and regs/evaluations than they are of states without them.  (Kids from states without regs can still get into colleges, of course, they just often have to prove more or describe their courses more.  We didn't need a single course description.)

 

Most homeschoolers whose dc were around the same age as mine didn't have to do course descriptions, either, and we didn't live in a highly regulated state. :-)

[Ellie]

As more families are leaving public education and turning to "homeschool", I am seeing more of this. There seems to be a growing population who believe you can give a child a stack of books or computer program and forget about it and they will be educated. Here in Okla. we do not have checks and balances. While not having to report anything is nice, I think I would rather see us move to mandatory annual testing or reporting of some kind to stop educational neglect. It is so heartbreaking. These children may pay the consequences the rest of their lives!

 

And I would completely, wholeheartedly disagree with you regarding the necessity of more government oversight. Goodness knows that millions of public school students suffer through all sorts of testing and whatnot and still graduate functionally illiterate. Educational neglect, paid for with my tax dollars.

[AimeeM]

And I would completely, wholeheartedly disagree with you regarding the necessity of more government oversight. Goodness knows that millions of public school students suffer through all sorts of testing and whatnot and still graduate functionally illiterate. Educational neglect, paid for with my tax dollars.

 

This. Perhaps if testing and regulations within public schools had proven successful, I might feel differently.

[creekland]

Most homeschoolers whose dc were around the same age as mine didn't have to do course descriptions, either, and we didn't live in a highly regulated state. :-)

 

For upper level (low acceptance) private schools?  If so, it would go against the experience of many on the high school board.  The common app homeschooler supplement "requires" it (we were able to skip it).  Even mid level private schools told us we could skip it due to being from PA, but from NJ they would require it.

 

Different schools can vary, of course, and high acceptance schools likely don't need it.

[creekland]

And I would completely, wholeheartedly disagree with you regarding the necessity of more government oversight. Goodness knows that millions of public school students suffer through all sorts of testing and whatnot and still graduate functionally illiterate. Educational neglect, paid for with my tax dollars.

 

Agreeing to disagree is just fine.  ;)

[whitestavern]

Yes. 

[Crimson Wife]

I don't think government oversight is the solution. After all, look at how tightly regulated the PS are but how mediocre most PS are and how downright horrendous some PS are.

As to the OP's question, yes. There is one mom who says her 9th grade DS doesn't like to read and blames it on dyslexia (which he may indeed have). She's having him do a general ed diploma, which means he won't be eligible for the 4 year public colleges in our state (though he could attend CC & transfer). Yet she allows him unlimited screen time including a TV and several gaming systems in his room. HELLO! The first thing I'd do with a kid who didn't like to read is go TV-free as a family.

[Erin]

Once upon a time, we lived/worked on a ranch where the foreman's family homeschooled.  They did do school also, but mostly the girls learned to be homemakers and the boys to be ranch hands.  They schooled to 16, when it was then legal to quit and work instead.  

They were raising good kids, no arguments there, and I'm not sure I'd actually say they did more harm than good.  But the last I knew, the oldest two were slogging their way through college as adult parents, having gotten their GEDs several years after Mom and Dad "let" them quit school.

 

That was probably Trap's biggest argument against homeschooling, actually, when it was looking like that would be Buck's best option.  He desperately did not want our kid to have such an uphill fight, just to get started in life...

 

 

That said, I agree with others that government oversight probably wouldn't change much, it would just make it more difficult for the rest of us.  

Kind of like why test scores, graduation rates, etc. don't really have much to do with the homeschool regulations of the states in which they exist...

[Ellie]

For upper level (low acceptance) private schools?  If so, it would go against the experience of many on the high school board.  The common app homeschooler supplement "requires" it (we were able to skip it).  Even mid level private schools told us we could skip it due to being from PA, but from NJ they would require it.

 

Different schools can vary, of course, and high acceptance schools likely don't need it.

 

Yes.