Downside to early advancement?

[Desert Strawberry]

As I was planning for next year, I found that 2 of my kids are finished and ready to move on. We started next year's work last week. 

 

We have no official reporting at this time. Just a letter that states we are a private school with number of children attending. 

 

What is the downside to advancing a child to the next grade across the board a year early? If this trend continues (we usually finish early, but have to wait for finances to order more stuff, forcing me hold them back. Not so now), what problems could this have down the road?

 

Or am I overthinking this and it's fine? 

 

Or should I call my 11yo a 5th grader even though he is across the board doing 6th grade work, and my 4yo PreK even though we are doing K? 

 

I would prefer early graduation based on my experiences, but I will not force that on my kids. 

 

All activies in my area are based on age and not grade, so this is really a nonissue at this point. I'm wondering about future impact when we do have to chose a grade-high school?

 

Thoughts?

 

 

[regentrude]

I have not given any thought to "grade level" because my kids were never working at typical "grade level" material anyway.

I am calling  the grade what my kids would chronologically be, and use whatever material is of an appropriate level for them - even when that means a 6th grader doing algebra, or an 8th grader taking a college class.

In case of finishing early ( not an issue for us, since we have never used any scripted curriculum except for math) I would simply move on to the next thing. I have never understood why everything has to be neatly compressed into a "school year" anyway, since learning is a continuous organic process and not something that happens in neatly labeled packages. We have started new math books in April.

 

Using this approach, we have managed to keep DD in high school until age 17 and graduate her only one year early. She could have completed a regular high school curriculum several years ago, but we did not see any advantage in extremely early graduation; we preferred to give her the opportunity to spend her high school years working at a higher level and learn more in the same time as opposed to spending less time on learning the same.

[Barb_]

When my older two were at this point, I just kept advancing them and called the last four years of homeschooling "High School" even though most of it was college level (and much of it actual college coursework). I simply ignored the high school level work they did prior to age 14 or so, with the exception of any Latin or foreign language classes.

I have a 12yo who really is ready to begin high school level across the board, but she is more artistic and less academically motivated. So I'm allowing her to unschool outside if Math and Literature. She is loving the time to sharpen her considerable art skills, watch documentaries on whatever intrigues her, and play around with the microscope as well as play dolls with her little sister. It's a gift of extra childhood, really. We'll probably go ahead and start high school in the fall, but who knows? Maybe not! You know your child best, and there are many valid ways of getting a student through his or her schooling.

[8filltheheart]

There are lots of posts about this on the accelerated board.   It really doesn't matter what you call them until high school level grades if you want to pursue a typical 4 yr high school transcript.   There are lots of ECE programs that don't require a high school diploma.

 

FWIW, I call my kids the grade level they are in by age.   My 9th grader has been doing high school level work across the board for at least 2 yrs.   My 12th grader could have easily have graduated in 10th class-wise.  I am not one for early graduation, so it is non-issue for us.  

 

FWIW, college admissions are incredibly competitive these days.  Early graduates really need to shine equivalently to high competitive 12th graders in terms of admissions and scholarship $$.

[dauphin]

Following. We also can't seem to take exactly a year with anything. (We also started unexpectedly in Nov 2012 so we are kind of out of sync from the get go) but I always assumed we'd do early graduation by a few years. Now I really would like to hear from more people like the PP who can elaborate on that whole "add depth instead" concept.

[Crimson Wife]

Some competitions have limits on the number of above-level courses that can be taken. For example, the Scripps National Spelling Bee has a limit of 6 high school courses or 2 college courses. That is one reason why I don't give H.S. credit before 8th and instead call the courses "honors" middle school ones. It's also why I won't have her take the California High School Proficiency Exam until she's no longer eligible for the NSB.

Call your student whatever grade he/she would be in at PS, and then use whatever level material is appropriately challenging.

[Barb_]

Some competitions have limits on the number of above-level courses that can be taken. For example, the Scripps National Spelling Bee has a limit of 6 high school courses or 2 college courses. That is one reason why I don't give H.S. credit before 8th and instead call the courses "honors" middle school ones. It's also why I won't have her take the California High School Proficiency Exam until she's no longer eligible for the NSB.

Call your student whatever grade he/she would be in at PS, and then use whatever level material is appropriately challenging.

Yep. Grade level actually has nothing to do with the level of material the student is actually using. I had a hard time wrapping my mind around this with my first child.

[regentrude]

 I always assumed we'd do early graduation by a few years.

 

What would your reason be for the early graduation?
 

Please keep in mind that with college applications, kids who graduate very early will not receive any "bonus points" for being younger- they will be compared to regular 18 year old 12th graders. So, it may be more advantageous to use the time to develop an outstanding academic portfolio than graduating with an average high school load at age 14. (I am leaving aside all issues that come with sending a much younger student off to college)

 

Now I really would like to hear from more people like the PP who can elaborate on that whole "add depth instead" concept.

 

Specifically, this meant for my DD:

starting dual enrollment courses at a four year university at age 14. By the time she graduates high school, she will have taken five semesters of French, two English courses, three calculus based physics courses. She is involved in several campus organizations. Since age 15, she has been working as a tutor for engineering physics at the university.

Thus, she had the benefit of challenging, more advanced coursework, interaction and socializing with older students with whom she can relate much better than with same age peers, involvement in a highly academic extracurricular activity she absolutely loves.

It has been an ideal situation of growing into the academic demands and social aspects of college life while still living at home, which was an excellent preparation for "real " college.

[8filltheheart]

Following. We also can't seem to take exactly a year with anything. (We also started unexpectedly in Nov 2012 so we are kind of out of sync from the get go) but I always assumed we'd do early graduation by a few years. Now I really would like to hear from more people like the PP who can elaborate on that whole "add depth instead" concept.

 

For my kids, it is about the what's that they study.   My 9th grader this yr will be completing French 4, Latin 3, and Russian 1 for example.   She plans on adding another language in about 6 months.   (She is debating between Arabic and Mandarin.)   She loves languages.   We do lit studies where she actually understands way more than I do 1/2 the time.   It is complete freedom to tackle subjects that we want and the way we want.   Ds is graduating high school 1 math credit short of a math minor and 5 semesters worth of 200 level up physics classes.   He also spent time studying philosophy, astronomy, 2 languages, etc.  

 

There is no end in what they can pursue. :)

[Coco_Clark]

I think the biggest downside to early advancement would be reaching college before the child was emotionally/mentally/spiritually/what-have-you ready for college. Or even if they ARE ready, being a 15 year old community college student that could have been an 18 year old really amazing university student.

But it really comes down to personal goals and values. I'd be hesitant to advance because I don't see education as a race to a finish line. I'm just as, or more, worried about acquiring virtue and wisdom than I am learning A, B, and C so I can be "done". Unfortunately virtue and wisdom take time and maturity. I'm not saying "never". If I had a child very unmotivated accidemically, with some sort of "plan" in place for what he'd do after graduation, I might graduate early. I'm sure there are other situations in which id consider it. But for the most part my plan is to provide increasingly advanced material, even outsourcing to community college courses, while keeping them in the age-appropriate grade and graduation date.

[Desert Strawberry]

Thanks for the reality check. We decided against acceleration in favor of depth this year, but still ended up ahead of schedule. I had a moment of panic. Of course you are all right. There is no hurry. They are still chronologically the same age no matter how fast they move through their books.

Taking a deep breath and getting a grip.

[Syllieann]

What would your reason be for the early graduation?

Please keep in mind that with college applications, kids who graduate very early will not receive any "bonus points" for being younger- they will be compared to regular 18 year old 12th graders. So, it may be more advantageous to use the time to develop an outstanding academic portfolio than graduating with an average high school load at age 14. (I am leaving aside all issues that come with sending a much younger student off to college)


Specifically, this meant for my DD:
starting dual enrollment courses at a four year university at age 14. By the time she graduates high school, she will have taken five semesters of French, two English courses, three calculus based physics courses. She is involved in several campus organizations. Since age 15, she has been working as a tutor for engineering physics at the university.
Thus, she had the benefit of challenging, more advanced coursework, interaction and socializing with older students with whom she can relate much better than with same age peers, involvement in a highly academic extracurricular activity she absolutely loves.
It has been an ideal situation of growing into the academic demands and social aspects of college life while still living at home, which was an excellent preparation for "real " college.

How do you finance the dual enrollment at the 4 year university? If your student is taking a lot of classes, the tuition really adds up. It seems like it might cost less to just graduate so they could enter college as a freshman and compete for scholarships and federal aid. There must be more to it?

[Dmmetler]

In my state, you can get funding for some college classes as dual enrollment in the last 2 years of high school, while still retaining entering freshman status for college scholarships. I plan to take advantage of that when DD is ready.

[linders]

With both my DC, I called them the grade they would be chronologically - it kept them with peers for things like Sunday School, scouts, and enrichment activities which are organized by grade and where maturity/interests were more important than academic ability. For academics, I teach them wherever they are and don't worry about grade level.

[8filltheheart]

How do you finance the dual enrollment at the 4 year university? If your student is taking a lot of classes, the tuition really adds up. It seems like it might cost less to just graduate so they could enter college as a freshman and compete for scholarships and federal aid. There must be more to it?

Scholarship $$ can be very competitive. Some are easier to get if they are simply based on test scores. But, a lot of scholarship $$ is based on academic achievements as well as community involvement. You are right, DE can be expensive. Over the past 2 yrs we have spent over $8,000 on ds's DE classes. But,when combining his offers from all the schools he applied to, he has literally been offered several hundred thousand dollars in scholarships. That is not a given. Full ride scholarships are rare and super competitive.He will be attending a school in the fall that accepts all of his transfer credits making it very easy for him to earn a double and 2 minors (or possibly a triple). He was one of 40 students accepted into a specialized research honors program.

If he had graduated early, what would have made him stand out? He would have just been your run of the mill high school grad. Instead he had research experience, 200 and 300 level courses, etc. Look at threads like this:
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/case-western-reserve-university/1625927-thread-for-waitlisted-student-please-post-a-summary-of-stats-and-financial-aid-y-n.html#latest

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/georgia-institute-technology/1600162-official-georgia-tech-2013-2014-ea-results-thread-p4.html

And these aren't top 20 schools. There are really competitive students out there and that is who your students will be competing against for admissions and scholarships. Young age is not a bonus.

Eta: and FA is another entire conversation. If you read the college forum here, you'll see that many (us included) are having to make decisions based on $. Some excellent schools have to be turned down bc the FA is not simply not enough.

[regentrude]

How do you finance the dual enrollment at the 4 year university? If your student is taking a lot of classes, the tuition really adds up. It seems like it might cost less to just graduate so they could enter college as a freshman and compete for scholarships and federal aid. There must be more to it?

 

She is taking the courses at the university where we teach, so we get some reduction in tuition. And of course she lives at home, so we do not need to pay extra for room and board.

You are absolutely right, tuition does add up - but if she were going to a college that is not one of the top selective universities, they would give her credit for those courses and we would not have to pay for those classes later elsewhere. (Of course, the very selective schools won't give any credit, so we really are out that money.) OTOH, paying for college tuition for a French class is still cheaper than having a private tutor come for one hour per week, as we did previously.

 

 

But as far as scholarships go: there really may not be that much available. My DD has stats that make her competetive for top tier schools. She applied for, and won, merit scholarships at an out of state public school - and even with those, it would be  more expensive to go there than to either of the highly selective private school she got into, both of which give only need based and no merit aid. I was shocked to see that, because I was under the impression that as a top student, you should be able to get good deals at out of state unis. Nope, not the case.

Even with the Presidential Leadership Scholarship she won, U Colorado Boulder would cost us more than Cornell or U Chicago.

So, don't hold your breath for scholarship money.

[raptor_dad]

How do you finance the dual enrollment at the 4 year university? If your student is taking a lot of classes, the tuition really adds up. It seems like it might cost less to just graduate so they could enter college as a freshman and compete for scholarships and federal aid. There must be more to it?

 

In Minnesota, we have PSEO(Public Secondary Enrollment Option) which allows students to enroll in college classes up to full time for their last 2 years of high school at participating colleges. All state schools must participate, private schools have lower participation rates. Admission isn't assured... UMN is quite competitive, much like for freshman admits. PSEO is free... tuition and some fees are covered. You still have books and maybe some consumable lab fees but it is an amazing deal. Some of the full time kids stay at UMN and graduate early. Lots of them go on to more selective schools after high school.  In the STEM fields many of them have previously participated in UMTYMP, which is a highly accelerated math program for 6-12th graders which covers the standard course at an enriched level at roughly 2x speed offered at UMN.

[dauphin]

What would your reason be for the early graduation?
 
Please keep in mind that with college applications, kids who graduate very early will not receive any "bonus points" for being younger- they will be compared to regular 18 year old 12th graders. So, it may be more advantageous to use the time to develop an outstanding academic portfolio than graduating with an average high school load at age 14. (I am leaving aside all issues that come with sending a much younger student off to college)

 
Well, it seemed like the logical outcome for a child who was doing Algebra in 4th grade. It seemed an inevitability that you would run out of courses in the course of keeping up with the child's pace of learning. Now, I'm obviously not so sure. That may have been partly driven by the limited experience I have had with others like DD, particularly outside of the traditional (public or private) educational model (except the College by 12 people). Now, after some exposure to Classical ideology, I'm open to considering different alternatives. But at the beginning, unfortunately, most of the conversations I had had were with families with more "typical" advanced children, who blithely advised me "oh, just go a little deeper in the subjects..." Um, how do you go "deeper" when they've completed Calculus by, like, 9th grade? Trust the Hive to give me some more appropriate role models with a range of experiences that give me a better idea of what it can look like... I <3 this place.
 

But it really comes down to personal goals and values. I'd be hesitant to advance because I don't see education as a race to a finish line. I'm just as, or more, worried about acquiring virtue and wisdom than I am learning A, B, and C so I can be "done".

 
I don't think of this as a race to finish or to be done, but rather to feed DD's hunger for learning and NOT keep her from diving in to her passions (e.g., the sooner she graduates, the sooner that she can enter advanced training/graduate school, become a Veterinarian or Rocket Scientist and actually be doing the "cool stuff" ("I want to blow things up like Aurora!") that much sooner. I'm not EVEN comparing DD to Jake Barnett, but he comes to mind...
 

In my state, you can get funding for some college classes as dual enrollment in the last 2 years of high school, while still retaining entering freshman status for college scholarships. I plan to take advantage of that when DD is ready.

  

The DE is funded?! That would be nice!!! We are still having to work with even the CC's to be flexible about admission of homeschooled and young students....
 

Scholarship $$ can be very competitive. Some are easier to get if they are simply based on test scores. But, a lot of scholarship $$ is based on academic achievements as well as community involvement. You are right, DE can be expensive. Over the past 2 yrs we have spent over $8,000 on ds's DE classes. But,when combining his offers from all the schools he applied to, he has literally been offered several hundred thousand dollars in scholarships. That is not a given. Full ride scholarships are rare and super competitive.He will be attending a school in the fall that accepts all of his transfer credits making it very easy for him to earn a double and 2 minors (or possibly a triple). He was one of 40 students accepted into a specialized research honors program.

If he had graduated early, what would have made him stand out? He would have just been your run of the mill high school grad. Instead he had research experience, 200 and 300 level courses, etc. Look at threads like this:
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/case-western-reserve-university/1625927-thread-for-waitlisted-student-please-post-a-summary-of-stats-and-financial-aid-y-n.html#latest

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/georgia-institute-technology/1600162-official-georgia-tech-2013-2014-ea-results-thread-p4.html

And these aren't top 20 schools. There are really competitive students out there and that is who your students will be competing against for admissions and scholarships. Young age is not a bonus.

Eta: and FA is another entire conversation. If you read the college forum here, you'll see that many (us included) are having to make decisions based on $. Some excellent schools have to be turned down bc the FA is not simply not enough.

I clearly need to go browse the Accelerated Learners board even more, and maybe check out the High School forum too. Here is what I have heard (that concerns me about earning significant DE credits) - that if you accumulate too many college credits before applying for college/FA, you are no longer considered for many of the scholarships because so many of them are limited to "freshman" and your student cannot be, by some definition out there, labeled a freshman. 
 

[Ellie]

As I was planning for next year, I found that 2 of my kids are finished and ready to move on. We started next year's work last week. 

 

We have no official reporting at this time. Just a letter that states we are a private school with number of children attending. 

 

What is the downside to advancing a child to the next grade across the board a year early? If this trend continues (we usually finish early, but have to wait for finances to order more stuff, forcing me hold them back. Not so now), what problems could this have down the road?

 

Or am I overthinking this and it's fine? 

 

Or should I call my 11yo a 5th grader even though he is across the board doing 6th grade work, and my 4yo PreK even though we are doing K? 

 

I would prefer early graduation based on my experiences, but I will not force that on my kids. 

 

All activies in my area are based on age and not grade, so this is really a nonissue at this point. I'm wondering about future impact when we do have to chose a grade-high school?

 

Thoughts?

 

I always recommend keeping children *on paper* the grade they would be in if they were in school, according to their date of birth and the cut-off date in their state, while teaching them at their academic ability. 

 

When is your 11yo's birthday? Because I was 11 in the 6th grade. o_0

 

"PreK" isn't a real grade. It's still preschool. Your 4yo would be a kindergartener the year he is 5 at the beginning of the school year.

[8filltheheart]

The DE is funded?!


I clearly need to go browse the Accelerated Learners board even more, and maybe check out the High School forum too. Here is what I have heard (that concerns me about earning significant DE credits) - that if you accumulate too many college credits before applying for college/FA, you are no longer considered for many of the scholarships because so many of them are limited to "freshman" and your student cannot be, by some definition out there, labeled a freshman.

Some states do find DE. TNused to give $300/ semester toward DE, but that was yrs ago. I don't know what it is now. Some states have PSEO which is funded.

I have heard of a couple of schools ( don't remember which ones, so obviously none we have been interested in) that students lose freshman status. Most definitely not true at the vast majority. It would eliminate most top students that way. Homeschoolers aren't the only students earning college credit in high school. Credit hr wise, our ds will be a 2nd semester sophomore even though is an incoming freshman. This school accepts CLEP credits, so he is thinking about taking 3 Clep exams which will make him a jr if he decides to actually take them.

The only mantra I would ever listen to in regards to college admissions is that it depends on the school. There are no blanket statements. If ds chose to attend a couple of his schools, they wouldn't accept his DE credits for credit, only for placement. I had heard GA Tech wouldn't probably give credit for his math and physics classes. They did with condition he took 1 additional math class that they thought he needed to fill in gaps between their sequence and what he has taken, etc. homeschooling through graduation means your role as guidance counselor becomes a high priority.

Fwiw, the best place for this info is either the college or high school forum. There are only a small handful of people on the accelerated board with older kids. The perspective of btdt is invaluable.

[regentrude]

 
Well, it seemed like the logical outcome for a child who was doing Algebra in 4th grade. It seemed an inevitability that you would run out of courses in the course of keeping up with the child's pace of learning. Now, I'm obviously not so sure. That may have been partly driven by the limited experience I have had with others like DD, particularly outside of the traditional (public or private) educational model (except the College by 12 people). Now, after some exposure to Classical ideology, I'm open to considering different alternatives. But at the beginning, unfortunately, most of the conversations I had had were with families with more "typical" advanced children, who blithely advised me "oh, just go a little deeper in the subjects..." Um, how do you go "deeper" when they've completed Calculus by, like, 9th grade?

 

If your student is strong in math, you should check out The Art of Problem Solving.

It goes deeper than the traditional math curriculum AND broader by covering additional topics not usually part of the typical high school math sequence.

 

http://www.artofproblemsolving.com

The Art of Problem Solving mathematics curriculum is specifically designed for high-performing math students ages 11-18. Our texts not only introduce key results of mathematics, but also teach students how to develop new ideas themselves and how to apply these ideas to challenging problems. In so doing, we help students learn the key problem solving skills needed for success in top universities and in the most competitive careers, as well as in major national programs like MATHCOUNTS and the American Mathematics Competitions.

Click here for more about what distinguishes the Art of Problem Solving curriculum from a typical math curriculum, and here for recommendations about which text is right for you.

 

And one can never "run out" of math. There is plenty that comes after high school calculus.

[tabinfl]

I have "accelerated" my youngest because she's been keeping up easily with the twins both academically and in maturity / behavior.

Last summer, one of their summer camps split kids by age rather than grade level, and she was rather disappointed with the pre-K group where she was placed. This year she's enrolled in extracurriculars as a 1st grader and all is well. Since our state just has mandatory enrollment / homeschool registration by age with no grade levels recorded, it's a non-issue there.

So far it's all been self-reported grade levels.I also check in with her (and the adults involved) often to be sure things are going well -- for example, I gave her the choice of whether she wanted to advance to Brownies in Girl Scouts (and get into more challenging activities) or have another year of Daisies (and stay in the group with some of her same-age preschool friends).

I could see it possibly becoming an issue if we ever enroll the kids in public school or if we get involved in sports where her physical development is a concern. We can always drop back to her age-grade level since there's no official record of what grade she's in, but that might be tough on her.

[Dmmetler]

Another reason to NOT accelerate on paper. My DD was grade skipped while in school, and now is very into academic competitions. Because she was grade skipped on paper, that means she is regularly competing against kids who are 1-2 years older than she is (since red-shirting is so common). And some of them are just as advanced as she is, but have had two more years than she's had.

 

 

 

 

[Barb_]

Here is what I have heard (that concerns me about earning significant DE credits) - that if you accumulate too many college credits before applying for college/FA, you are no longer considered for many of the scholarships because so many of them are limited to "freshman" and your student cannot be, by some definition out there, labeled a freshman.

Far more likely is one of two other scenarios. Either the college won't accept the credits at all or uses them to help with placement (primarily selective, expensive privates and ivies) or the college ignores the credits for admission and scholarship reasons, then reviews them for credit at some point during Freshman year. My daughters' universities went with option two so they have their Freshman Scholarships, but didn't have to waste a lot of time on general ed stadium classes. One took grad level classes as an undergrad and the other is double majoring in neuroscience and comp sci. These things wouldn't be possible if they didn't have the extra room in their schedules. Neither of them was excited about graduating college early once they got there.

[Ravin]

I don't se a problem with working ahead. But I'd I had a do over, I would not have placed DD ahead in her enrichment program. This is because she got it in her head that the grade level of the enrichment program. was her grade, so when she hit a plateau later in the pace of her learning, to change that grade designation would have been an upsetting blow for her, even though the practical effect in the program would only be on standardized testing--all the classes are multi-grade.

I would do the work ahead, and keep the child's grade level label with age, unless and until you need to put the child in school, when being advanced may be necessary if the child is working well above designated grade level. I'd rather have to do that when truly necessary, then when it's optional, only to have to turn around and hold an "ahead" child back after a plateau.

[Chrysalis Academy]

When my older two were at this point, I just kept advancing them and called the last four years of homeschooling "High School" even though most of it was college level (and much of it actual college coursework). I simply ignored the high school level work they did prior to age 14 or so, with the exception of any Latin or foreign language classes.

I have a 12yo who really is ready to begin high school level across the board, but she is more artistic and less academically motivated. So I'm allowing her to unschool outside if Math and Literature. She is loving the time to sharpen her considerable art skills, watch documentaries on whatever intrigues her, and play around with the microscope as well as play dolls with her little sister. It's a gift of extra childhood, really. We'll probably go ahead and start high school in the fall, but who knows? Maybe not! You know your child best, and there are many valid ways of getting a student through his or her schooling.

 

Barb, I just wanted to say thank you for posting this! It really resonates with me right now.  What a lovely gift you are giving your daughter.

[dauphin]

I have heard of a couple of schools ( don't remember which ones, so obviously none we have been interested in) that students lose freshman status. Most definitely not true at the vast majority. It would eliminate most top students that way. Homeschoolers aren't the only students earning college credit in high school. 

The only mantra I would ever listen to in regards to college admissions is that it depends on the school. homeschooling through graduation means your role as guidance counselor becomes a high priority.

Fwiw, the best place for this info is either the college or high school forum. There are only a small handful of people on the accelerated board with older kids. The perspective of btdt is invaluable.

 

Good points and I'm glad to hear that it is NOT true of the majority. I don't have a good information base, but before I found these forums, there really isn't much of a network of families who are both like-minded about academics AND dealing with acceleration issues. Thank you for the tip about the accelerated board. I am definitely persuaded to check out the college/HS forums - but I appreciate you guys distilling out some of the important points!!

 

If your student is strong in math, you should check out The Art of Problem Solving.

It goes deeper than the traditional math curriculum AND broader by covering additional topics not usually part of the typical high school math sequence.

 

http://www.artofproblemsolving.com

 

 

And one can never "run out" of math. There is plenty that comes after high school calculus.

 

I have heard AOPS recommended multiple times, I definitely intend to check it out, but I had been bingeing on HS materials like most other new HS'ers (from what I hear, at least), so I hadn't yet justified to myself an additional purchase.

 

I know there's more than HS Calculus, but it's not offered at the HS level, and you get back to the issue of taking too many college/DE classes prior to graduation (to be considered as a "freshman" for FA purposes, etc.). I would be under the impression that the professors who are already reluctant to let a much younger student take their upper level math course would be even more reluctant if they heard that the student was still enrolled in HS (vs an "early enrolled" college student).  

 

Far more likely is one of two other scenarios. Either the college won't accept the credits at all or uses them to help with placement (primarily selective, expensive privates and ivies) or the college ignores the credits for admission and scholarship reasons, then reviews them for credit at some point during Freshman year. My daughters' universities went with option two so they have their Freshman Scholarships, but didn't have to waste a lot of time on general ed stadium classes. One took grad level classes as an undergrad and the other is double majoring in neuroscience and comp sci. These things wouldn't be possible if they didn't have the extra room in their schedules. Neither of them was excited about graduating college early once they got there.

 

Okay, I could be fine with our situation evolving like either of yours, and I think the bolded would most likely be true. 

 

I would do the work ahead, and keep the child's grade level label with age, unless and until you need to put the child in school, when being advanced may be necessary if the child is working well above designated grade level. I'd rather have to do that when truly necessary, then when it's optional, only to have to turn around and hold an "ahead" child back after a plateau.

 

Ooh good point. But a question: can you run into problems with co-ops/etc. who want your child to be "in" a certain grade in order to be enrolled in a class. Or maybe that's not the kind of co-op we would want/need anyway...thinking out loud I guess... 

[regentrude]

I know there's more than HS Calculus, but it's not offered at the HS level, and you get back to the issue of taking too many college/DE classes prior to graduation (to be considered as a "freshman" for FA purposes, etc.). I would be under the impression that the professors who are already reluctant to let a much younger student take their upper level math course would be even more reluctant if they heard that the student was still enrolled in HS (vs an "early enrolled" college student).  

 

I have not encountered any professor who was reluctant to have a capable student enrolled in his upper level course.

Math enrollment is done by placement test, not by "mommy wants to her special snowflake to take your class".

The professors normally have no idea how old a student is and whether he is in high school or college unless the student volunteers this information.

 

ETA: It is also helpful to get away from the "offered in high school" mindset. We are homeschooling, there is nothing "offered" - we make our own curriculum. What my homeschool offers is what I choose to find resources for.

[8filltheheart]

I have heard AOPS recommended multiple times, I definitely intend to check it out, but I had been bingeing on HS materials like most other new HS'ers (from what I hear, at least), so I hadn't yet justified to myself an additional purchase.

I know there's more than HS Calculus, but it's not offered at the HS level, and you get back to the issue of taking too many college/DE classes prior to graduation (to be considered as a "freshman" for FA purposes, etc.). I would be under the impression that the professors who are already reluctant to let a much younger student take their upper level math course would be even more reluctant if they heard that the student was still enrolled in HS (vs an "early enrolled" college student).
...

AoPS is not a purchase I would skip for a math loving student. Our sr spent 2 yr on alg (1 completing Mus's alg and geo as pre-alg and pre-geo and one yr with Foerster), geometry (Chalkdust), and Foerster alg 2 before we found AoPS when he was in 8th grade. He took their C&P class and their alg 3 class in 8th. He loved their classes and he is now well prepared for his upper level coursework bc of them.

Fwiw, his professors love him. They only know he is a high school student bc he has told them. They don't know otherwise. He didn't tell any of them until he started asking for letters of recommendations for college apps. They are actually thrilled to have such a strong student in their classes that is there bc he loves the subjects and is enthusiastic. :)

[Barb_]

I have not encountered any professor who was reluctant to have a capable student enrolled in his upper level course.
Math enrollment is done by placement test, not by "mommy wants to her her special snowflake take your class".
The professors normally have no idea how old a student is and whether he is in high school or college unless the student volunteers this information.

ETA: It is also helpful to get away from the "offered in high school" mindset. We are homeschooling, there is nothing "offered" - we make our own curriculum. What my homeschool offers is what I choose to find resources for.

I agree. My kids have taken university classes and community college classes and the instructor has never been told that my girls were younger students. One of the schools had a policy to give the professor a heads up if there was a student younger than 16 wishing to enroll (in case he or she felt the material was too adult), but even then no one was called out by name.

[Dory]

On paper, I have been keeping my kids listed as the grade they would be in according to their age. At home, I have let them move at whatever pace comes naturally to them. That means my oldest is doing high school science, starting algebra, and still struggling with elementary writing all while being listed as 4th grade. My dd is across the board, using material that is listed as 4th grade while she is 3rd grade on paper. My youngest is using everything from 1st grade material to 5th grade material and on paper he is in 1st grade. If by high school they are still moving quickly I might bump their written down grade level up a couple grades, but until then, we will just keep doing the next thing with LOTS of extras. I don't want them leaving home before they are 17 so we will have some DE and will probably cover a lot of subjects that they would never even hear of in the high schools here. I'm keeping their education wide whenever I can. A person can only go so deep. My kids get annoyed with feeling like we are doing the same thing for too long, so I just slow it down a little by doing lots of other things. Experiments take more time, music lessons and choir take up a chunk of time, gymnastics, swimming lessons, an extra language. All of those take up time without making a kid feel like they are being held back. I tried holding my youngest back once in math by using a different curriculum and coming at it a different direction. He just shut down on me. He felt like as if he had failed to meet expectations and he didn't know what I wanted from him so he quit trying.

 

For class group settings, I put the kids in according to their age. They might know the material already in some of them, but I tell them that this is an opportunity for them to learn how to brainstorm and to try to see things from other people's perspectives. Because they have other places and times that they can run ahead and do what they do best, having a social exercise where they have to meet others where they are at is good for them. I would never expect them to do that on a daily basis or if it was the only consistent interaction they were getting with kids. So they get a little interaction at intellectual level and a little at age level. I have specifically sought out other families with kids that my kids click with. We have their kids here or my kids go there regularly.

 

[Allearia]

I pretty much agree with what everyone else has said. My ds started taking online high school classes at 9 and auditing university courses in languages at 10. For math, he is loving the AOPS courses and after Algebra branched out into Number Theory, and I am encouraging him to take all of their different courses (though in his head he is really excited to get to calculus!). But I still call him a sixth grader. It has been an opportunity to go deep into language study and have a lot of other time to spend on math, doing National Novel Writing Month, electronics and programming projects at Hacker Scouts, and spend way too much time playing Magic the Gathering with his friends and hours creating Dungeons and Dragons characters. He is also adding German this year and we are going to find some time for Spanish somewhere.

I think all this extra time going deep and doing some unusual studies will make him very competitive for college and scholarships. I am considering enrolling him in a university class for credit in the fall (he is at the point where it is a bit unfair for him to not get college credit for the work he is doing, although if the college he ends up going to eventually doesn't give credit it will be okay too). He is thinking of double majoring in Classics and either Physics or Math, but he still has six years to decide. He may even try high school, if we can figure out how to keep doing some higher level classes at the same time. I am worried about it getting much more expensive soon, but hopefully we will find creative ways to find classes or mentors, community college, tutors, grad students from the local university, etc.

I'm in a hurry so I'm not sure if all that was coherent, but my point is that there are many ways to use this time to advantage. I don't want my son to do early college, though if that was something he chose and was very passionate about I would consider it. And if later on you decide to go in that direction you can choose grade acceleration, but it is much more difficult to go back once you have done that than to go forward. Do keep track of especially high school level courses, keep the syllabus and records, so that you keep your options open.

[EndOfOrdinary]

My son wanted to blow through his A.A. degree and graduate high school early so he could travel and get internships into environmental organizations before pursuing state college for a B.A. Based on his current work, that was a very viable option. He would have been on track to graduate with his high school diploma and his A.A. at 16. Traveled and interned till 18 and then finished his B.A. It had been fact checked, colleges visited, whole deal.

Then he discovered Ivy League. Totally different ball game now that he knows about Dartmouth. Ivy League scholarships, transcripts, and applicant resumes are a whole different deal than state college. Dual enrollment may still happen, but the credits are not likely to be accepted, so they don't matter a whole ton. Internships should happen while in school still, not out of school. The boy will not be heading to the far reaches of the East Coast at 16 with us on the far reaches of the West Coast. A local state university at 16 would have been no biggie.

I second dmmetler about the age/grade discrepancy when it comes to larger events. My son was grade skipped by the charter we belonged to in order to receive additional curriculum. Many of the kids who. He is competing against have significantly more experience. It adds up to an exponential deficit when you add in how tiny he is compared to the others he is interacting with. There is definitely a fight for legitimacy.

[8filltheheart]

Then he discovered Ivy League. Totally different ball game now that he knows about Dartmouth. Ivy League scholarships, transcripts, and applicant resumes are a whole different deal than state college. Dual enrollment may still happen, but the credits are not likely to be accepted, so they don't matter a whole ton. Internships should happen while in school still, not out of school. The boy will not be heading to the far reaches of the East Coast at 16 with us on the far reaches of the West Coast. A local state university at 16 would have been no biggie.

 

 

Just some info.   Ivies do not offer merit scholarship.   Neither does MIT and a host of top schools.   All aid through them is need based.   DE credits really do play a factor for homeschoolers b/c they give admissions officers solid data for classroom performance.  Professors are also great sources for LOR.  

[Crimson Wife]

I don't think of this as a race to finish or to be done, but rather to feed DD's hunger for learning and NOT keep her from diving in to her passions (e.g., the sooner she graduates, the sooner that she can enter advanced training/graduate school, become a Veterinarian or Rocket Scientist and actually be doing the "cool stuff" ("I want to blow things up like Aurora!") that much sooner.

The bolded is where I get really torn about the idea of grade-skipping and early graduation from high school. With my DS, I don't worry about the timeline because it doesn't really matter for him if he doesn't finish grad school and training until his 30's. But for women, the biological clock is a serious issue. Finishing early vs. not could very well mean the difference between DD having 3 or 4 kids and having only 1. Several of my aunts experienced secondary infertility and wound up with fewer kids than they had originally wanted.

A big reason why I dropped pre-med in college is because I wanted to have a larger family and I knew the best chance of that happening was starting in my 20's.

[Crimson Wife]

Just some info.   Ivies do not offer merit scholarship.   Neither does MIT and a host of top schools.   All aid through them is need based.

Stanford offers Presidential scholarships that are based on merit without regard for financial need. One of my sorority sisters got one and while she totally deserved merit aid, she was from a very wealthy family and didn't need the money at all.

[8filltheheart]

The bolded is where I get really torn about the idea of grade-skipping and early graduation from high school. With my DS, I don't worry about the timeline because it doesn't really matter for him if he doesn't finish grad school and training until his 30's. But for women, the biological clock is a serious issue. Finishing early vs. not could very well mean the difference between DD having 3 or 4 kids and having only 1. Several of my aunts experienced secondary infertility and wound up with fewer kids than they had originally wanted.

A big reason why I dropped pre-med in college is because I wanted to have a larger family and I knew the best chance of that happening was starting in my 20's.

 

Age can sometimes be a factor in med school admissions.

 

Stanford offers Presidential scholarships that are based on merit without regard for financial need. One of my sorority sisters got one and while she totally deserved merit aid, she was from a very wealthy family and didn't need the money at all.

 

Of course, Stanford is not an Ivy.  ;)   Dartmouth, as mentioned by EOO, otoh, is.    There are great top schools that do offer merit scholarships, but MIT and Ivies definitely do not.  Though good to know about Stanford (but can't imagine how crazy competitive that scholarship is!)

[quark]

(some details removed for privacy)

 

I still remember first introducing myself to the Hive in a 9th grade thread with a 9yo. At that time, I sincerely believed that was the right thing to do.

 

Then I read some threads on the accel. board and high school board and was hooked by the idea of progressing with college level work in middle school and high school without skipping grades. I realized there really was no need to advance him so early. So we have stayed with age-based grade levels although at his current pace, he will be finishing the "regular" high school math of up to calculus in about a year at 12yo.

 

I'm not talking about doing each math just once! By some stroke of providence (and being able to afford it with only one kid to parent and support) we have gone back and doubled up on math whenever he finished one level, following each year of math with a harder version of the same.

 

Now that I've read threads here and had time to think about it, for me it really is more to give him time to be a kid than anything else. I know that using regular level books and curriculum will be a disservice to him. He naturally gravitates towards more difficult materials. But the downside of using such hard materials is that it makes for very long school hours. He does it because he likes it and also because he feels so strongly about working hard being the right thing to do. Taking that for granted and advancing him in line with his actual work level would really take the fun out of his childhood (although he will disagree with me...for him the harder it is, the more fun it is).

 

I love that with homeschooling there is little need to worry about the numbers following the word Grade. I love that we have time and that if he can get a foot in the door of our local community college, he can use this time to learn a variety of skills like welding and designing websites and making apps, or take a month to chase a grade-level geography bunny trail while joyfully pursuing college-level math. I also love that if he is truly ready and that's what's really best for him, we can graduate him early.

 

But till then, we have so many more bridges to cross and hills to climb and we can do them knowing full well that we have time to enjoy them instead of racing against time to finish.

[EndOfOrdinary]

Just some info. Ivies do not offer merit scholarship. Neither does MIT and a host of top schools. All aid through them is need based. DE credits really do play a factor for homeschoolers b/c they give admissions officers solid data for classroom performance. Professors are also great sources for LOR.

I think what I was getting at was more that dual enrolling and graduating at 16 with both diploma and degree was merely box checking. It goes back to speeding through mediocre curriculum, or delving deeply into dense curriculum. A.A. at 16, would be fine if he went an inch deep. It would be fast, down and dirty school. Boxes checked and degrees obtained because he knows they matter to society. It didn't matter to him. It was an obligation - a game and a way to scam the system. His focus has now shifted to the idea if really delving into his studies with Ivy. Experiencing college for the thrill of seeing just what it can offer. He is still going to dual enroll at community college, but now it isn't a credit game because they won't be accepted. In that sense the two extra years and graduating "on time" provide something much more - life experience.

quark articulated it far better than I did. If it is about learning, the grade levels don't matter. It becomes about the act of living life as the fullest person.

The scholarships I was referring to are not just merit from the school. More scholarships in general. If he is young, he does not have the resume to compete with others who have two more years and a stack of accolades. All he has is being young and quick.

[Kathy in Richmond]

Stanford offers Presidential scholarships that are based on merit without regard for financial need. One of my sorority sisters got one and while she totally deserved merit aid, she was from a very wealthy family and didn't need the money at all.

 

Unfortunately, the President's Scholar program was discontinued about a decade ago.
 

[Dmmetler]

I think it kind of depends on what resources you find. My DD, right now, actually is getting more opportunities to do fieldwork and research than most college undergraduates get because she is able to work with a mentor who normally works mostly with graduate students. She may not be doing full graduate level research at this point, but she's getting the kind of experience only the undergrads who are lucky enough to get the rare work-study lab assistant position get (not to mention being handed books like Campbell's Biology with statements like "Here, I don't need this anymore" as the college kids start preparing to move out of the dorms once finals are done in a few weeks). In many respects, I've actually slowed down her across the board rate of acceleration to focus on science (and the math that she needs for science, which means right now she's working fairly seriously on statistics) because, honestly, she can learn more by having the extra time than she can by pushing ahead across the board.

I can see a lot of reason for acceleration when that's the only way to open doors, but sometime, you just need to knock on the correct ones (and luck...lots and lots of luck....)

[Kathy in Richmond]

I thought long and hard about grade skipping and early advancement into college with my two kids. There are certainly good arguments on both sides. In retrospect, though, I'm really glad that we kept them home and graduated them at 18.

 

We were approached by & strongly considered the PEG program at Mary Baldwin when dd was in middle school and took the SAT through CTY. Without really studying for it, she had earned the highest score in the state.  DS was similar, but even pointier in math and CS. Since he struggled to express himself in writing, though, it was obvious to me that he needed more time at home before college. I still worried about how to fill his remaining years with challenging enough math & science. We didn't have the option of free dual enrollment, nor is there a college in easy commuting distance anyway that would have made it an option.

 

What did work for my particular kids to keep them excited about learning and moving forward was a combination of AoPS math, summer academic camps, and academic competitions and teams. We were on board with AoPS before they even had an online school, and my kids took many of their classes & got very involved in their community online. Dd, who is highly social, even made the effort to connect with some of her new virtual friends in real life, forming teams that traveled to math events on the East Coast, traveled just to visit each other, and did various online competitions together.

 

Summer camps are a super terrific way to stay challenged AND to meet new friends at that level & feel "normal"...both of mine adored summers at MathPath and Canada/USA Mathcamp, but there are many, many more academic camps out there for all kinds of interests (look at Hoagies or CTY's Cogito websites for long lists). These camps introduce university (even graduate level) math in a playful and interesting way. Having taken algebra at a young age is the norm there! Both ds and dd went through a tough phase around 9th grade when their long term local friends seemed to no longer have time for them or have much in common any more. These camps filled a huge hole in their lives at that point & provided lots of new friends - heaven sent!

 

As others have pointed out, many of these kids (but not all) are attracted to academic competitions such as the various math and science Olympiads. Being young for their grade and having to compete with older & more experienced kids is tough. And very good results are a way to distinguish themselves to selective colleges. We did not approach contests with that in mind - my kids just plain enjoyed them, but we were pleasantly surprised, especially for my quiet son, at how much they paid off that way.

 

Besides academic reasons, emotional and spiritual maturity were other things we considered before sending them away. I think my kids would both say that they appreciated the gift of time that they had in high school.  Time to think about life is important when they hit those middle teen years, and mine were happy to have that while still at home. Once they got to college, it was all about fast moving classes, deadlines, and much less time for that pondering. We read a lot of thought-provoking books together and discussed, discussed, discussed...

 

Plus, I just plain enjoyed having them home! The best years were from about 14 through 18 when it's just SO interesting to hear what they're thinking. Taking long walks, talking in the car while running around town, traveling together, playing games and having silly times, being there to help them through the times when they failed at something or had friend trouble & celebrating with them when things went well...those are all memories that I wouldn't trade in for anything in the world now.

 

They're still excited about learning, and we still like each other a lot. Those were the goals here in the first place when we started homeschooling. :001_smile:

[dauphin]

I have not encountered any professor who was reluctant to have a capable student enrolled in his upper level course.

Math enrollment is done by placement test, not by "mommy wants to her special snowflake to take your class".

The professors normally have no idea how old a student is and whether he is in high school or college unless the student volunteers this information.

 

ETA: It is also helpful to get away from the "offered in high school" mindset. We are homeschooling, there is nothing "offered" - we make our own curriculum. What my homeschool offers is what I choose to find resources for.

 

My experiences thus far (albeit QUITE limited) is definitely based primarily upon the opinion of the course instructor or rigid birthdate-based cutoffs. I only WISH we had more placement test usage. :(

 

Well, when I said "offered in high school" I was referring to the fact that post-Calculus would require (I thought, but online options like AoPS (i.e., non-University) seem to be becoming more common?) taking college courses. And the whole issue (which I thought was more of an issue than it appears to be based on the tales I am hearing here) of "you can't take too many college courses or you lose the options for freshman enrollment (and FA). 

 

But clearly I still have a lot to learn and I'm so thankful I found this forum!!!

[8filltheheart]

My experiences thus far (albeit QUITE limited) is definitely based primarily upon the opinion of the course instructor or rigid birthdate-based cutoffs. I only WISH we had more placement test usage. :(

Well, when I said "offered in high school" I was referring to the fact that post-Calculus would require (I thought, but online options like AoPS (i.e., non-University) seem to be becoming more common?) taking college courses.

Could you elaborate on what you are thinking here bc I am confused. Your first paragraph makes me think you aren't talking about college classes? Bc neither of those apply to college class enrollment.

It is possible for students to study post cal at online via sources like Stanford online high school (OHS) or via opencourseware, but AoPS doesn't really have courses offered regularly for post cal (they have TAPAS and group theory, but they aren't really regular classes and are only offered occasionally.)

DE post cal is going to be based on AP test scores. Significantly advanced students can not really DE at most CCs bc they don't always offer upper level courses even if they are listed in their course catalog. Universities are going to be easier access for what coursework is needed or online classes (and there are more than OHS.)

[Crimson Wife]

Unfortunately, the President's Scholar program was discontinued about a decade ago.

Really? Because they still are listed on Stanford's website: http://www.stanford.edu/group/ps/index.html

[momma2three]

Really? Because they still are listed on Stanford's website: http://www.stanford.edu/group/ps/index.html

 

So far as I know, almost all of the top schools have done away with merit aid over the past decade, because it was mostly going to the kids who least needed it.  That page looks really old... the graphics and colors and overall poor quality screams 1999.  It doesn't match their current main webpage, either.  I would bet that's an old webpage that they never got around to taking down.  Did you get to it from a link on the Stanford website?

[Kathy in Richmond]

Really? Because they still are listed on Stanford's website: http://www.stanford.edu/group/ps/index.html

 

Click through the links on that page. I couldn't find anything beyond kids in the Class of 2007, who would have been admitted around 2003, which is the last update time that I could find on any of those pages. I also found this info on College Confidential.

 

Of course, I could be mistaken. It just seemed odd that I'd never heard of it after having been involved with Stanford recently over the past four years.

[momma2three]

A little more digging... I assume whatever scholarship your roommate was on is long defunct.  It looks like in 1999 they resurrected something called "The President's Scholar," which was a $3000 research grant for top performing students.  That was done away with in 2004.  It definitely isn't a full ride (or anything close) merit scholarship.

[Dmmetler]

I think it depends on the competition. For something that is only a few year long window, it makes sense to me to hold off on that window. That is, my DD is doing research now that is comparable to what shows up at ISEF preliminaries-but isn't at a level where she'd be competitive. She's very advanced for an elementary school student, and competitive against average high school students, but not against the best high school students, and if I call her a 9th grader now, she'd be a 12th grader at 13. There is too much at stake in top science competitions for me to start her launch window until she's competitive with the best. For Continental Math League, which she does just for fun, yeah, I put her in at the level she's working at so it's challenging. And we skipped the local homeschool spelling bee because there is no competition for her, and our local homeschool association doesn't allow kids to compete for the regionals slot until middle school, and won't let her bump up.

[MBM]

Full tuition and even full ride scholarships still exist. I'm looking through some of them now on Naviance.