If you're using WWE or WWS...

[Susan Wise Bauer]

or CONSIDERING using either program, be sure to visit my updated recommendations.

And thanks once again to this wonderful HIVE for providing us with such constant and valuable feedback.

SWB

(link updated 2022)

Edited May 1 by Helpdesk
Update link

[RootAnn]

 

http://phpgo.to/wwerec

 

*getting a blank web page when I click the link*

[The Governess]

I can't see it either. I tried viewing the link on my iPhone and computer but I'm getting a blank screen in every browser....

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Hmm..the shortcut seems to be working on Facebook & Twitter, so not sure what's wrong. Try this horrendous thing here:

 

http://downloads.peacehillpress.com/samples/pdf/WWEandWWSexplanation.pdf?utm_source=Catalog&utm_medium=Print&utm_content=Page%2B9&utm_campaign=2014%2BCatalog&page=10

 

 

[UmMusa]

Thank you! I was able to read the document just fine.

[MeaganS]

I clicked on the link she posted on Facebook and it worked for me: http://downloads.peacehillpress.com/samples/pdf/WWEandWWSexplanation.pdf?utm_source=Catalog&utm_medium=Print&utm_content=Page%2B9&utm_campaign=2014%2BCatalog&page=10

 

Edited:  I see I added this at the same time.  Well, hopefully one works!

[RootAnn]

Thank you! The long one works great. 

 

Thanks for updating your recommendations.  :hurray:

[KathyBC]

Thank you! 

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Thanks! 

 

Do you have any current musings on which children will most likely enjoy WWS? In the past it's been mentioned that natural writers or children who like writing won't like WWS. Our experience has been quite the opposite. Whenever this idea comes up in threads, I'm always curious if you still feel the same way.

 

Thanks again for the new recommendations!

 

 

ETA quote for clarity.

 

<snip>

The more intuitive and natural your young writer is, the more they'll hate WWS. It is absolutely the wrong choice for a kid who loves writing. I call it my "Engineer's Guide to Writing." It was constructed with the non-intuitive, "I can't figure this out!" weeping writer in mind. *Those* were the kids who seemed to me to be totally unserved by existing writing programs.

HTH,

SWB
<snip>

 

 

[The Governess]

Thanks! Very helpful.

[sunnyday]

Fabulous references, can't wait to follow the rabbit trails and ponder this scope and sequence! Thanks!!

[Perogi]

Thank you, Susan! As someone who loves the concept of Writing With Ease, and adores listening to your writing lectures, but struggles to put it all into practice without strangling anyone....I appreciate the update. We had already taken a break from WWE 4 (made it about halfway through - dictations being the most difficult) and are working through EIW 5 this year so I'm very pleased to see that work it's way into your scope and sequence!

[TracyP]

This is so helpful. Thank you!

 

 

 

 

[idnib]

Thank you! Some of this is a relief, actually. Good to hear I'm not the only one with a kid who needs things repeated 5 or 6 times on some of these sentences. And that it's okay he won't be ready for WWS until the end of 5th grade.

[Alice]

Thanks! This is very helpful especially since it confirms my plans for next year. :) 

[Cz mama]

Susan, I just recently made the jump to homeschooling. I have read the WTM, and am dipping my toes into the waters...My son was half way through the 3rd grade at a private, classically minded school and although they were doing 'dictation', it was structured that he was more doing copy work than dictation. I'm just not really sure where to throw him in. He does not even understand the concept of true dictation. I have already purchased WWE 3, and he does have strengths in language. Should I just use WWE3 and temporarily shorten the dictations, and gradually lengthen them to what the book has? Thank you very much...

[Walking-Iris]

Thank you for this. My ds finished WWE3 and we've been slowly working on WWE4 this year. He has not been enjoying it as much. I think I love the idea of Kilgallon, and I love the idea of taking a break with something else before going on to WWS. My 1st grader does well in WWE1, but I do feel WWE2 will be more difficult. 

 

I have our creative writing covered.

 

I hope everyone sees this, and realizes that it is okay to go at a slower pace with WWE/WWS. 

 

 

[Cosmos]

Susan, I just recently made the jump to homeschooling. I have read the WTM, and am dipping my toes into the waters...My son was half way through the 3rd grade at a private, classically minded school and although they were doing 'dictation', it was structured that he was more doing copy work than dictation. I'm just not really sure where to throw him in. He does not even understand the concept of true dictation. I have already purchased WWE 3, and he does have strengths in language. Should I just use WWE3 and temporarily shorten the dictations, and gradually lengthen them to what the book has? Thank you very much...

 

Czapla Mama, welcome!

 

I think your question would get some great responses if you started a new thread with a title like "help with dictation" or something. There are lots of experienced homeschoolers who would love to help you out, but they might not see it in this thread. My short bit of advice would be to do whatever you need to do (shorten, repeat, choose simpler sentences) to have him be successful and gain some confidence, then very gradually increase the difficulty (time, length, complexity). Third grade is very young -- you have lots and lots of time to build these skills.

 

SWB, thanks for the updated recommendations!

[skeeterbug]

Thank you for the update. This puts my mind at ease and helps me map out a plan for my oldest. :)

[ScoutTN]

Thank you! Very timely advice for us. 

[freesia]

Thanks for sharing. I don't understand what the chart means when it shows the same program listed more than once next to the same grade. It probably doesn't mean anything more than, "use WWE1 or WWE2" (if you are looking near the early grades) but the 4 columns confuse me. I'm thinking column one means "product" column, two means "recommended if applicable" and so forth? But the 4th column throws me off when it matches the third.

Each column is meant to be a pathway. Read vertically it defines what you would use each grade. SWB has given 4 possible schedules for using the program. You would choose a "path" and follow it down the vertical column.

[razorbackmama]

I'm so glad to read this. I came over to the board just for the purpose of asking how I should be handling the long dictations in the WWE3 workbook, especially when the textbook suggests much shorter dictation passages for this week.

[Dolphin]

So glad I read this. We are doing 2 weeks of IEW then one week of WWS1 (6th grade). I am feeling really good about that decision now. Thank you! I am printing out the guideline and putting it into my copy of TWTM.

[skimomma]

I always seem to come to this stuff behind the curve!  

 

Just as a data point, my 5th grader is finishing up WWS1 (she is on week 33 right now).  She did all but the very last few weeks of WWE4.  We only stopped because the dictations were driving us both crazy.  Had I known the whole year was somewhat "optional" we probably would have stopped halfway through and spread it out over the full year.

 

Dd is not what I would consider accelerated or "gifted."  She struggles sometimes and excels sometimes in typical 5th grade work.  We have had some rough spots in WWS1 but I would consider it appropriate for a 5th grader who had the benefit of the WWE series.  We did have to spread some single days into two days.  But there were other times we were able to cover two days in one.  The whole book took us a "school year."

 

It sounds like there will only be three books in the WWS series?  I would like to know that now so I can plan ahead!

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Yes, three books ended up covering the skills that I thought were essential for pre-rhetoric.

 

SWB

[Heather in VA]

Yes, three books ended up covering the skills that I thought were essential for pre-rhetoric.

 

SWB

 

Thanks for both the chart and this information, but I'm still a little confused. This comment implies that WWS3 will get a student ready for rhetoric studies. The first column of the chart moves from WWS3 to 'persuasive essays across the curriculum' along with some more theoretical, for lack of a better word, books on writing. But where do they get the specific skills for the persuasive essay? Will those be in WWS3? I used a very good, but no longer available to me, approach with my oldest and now I'm floundering to determine how to hone those persuasive writing skills with my 9th grader.

 

Thanks

Heather

[SheriGene]

Susan,

My dd is 13 and has written several (over 100 written pg.) books on her own. (Creative Writing)  I have read very little of these, because she will not let me. (I think she is afraid I will correct everything!)  I did read a page that was left up on the computer one day.  It was pretty good.  She hated WWS1 and now hates WWS2, but I feel like she needs to learn how to write these kinds of papers with documentation, etc.  Am I doing her a disservice by keeping her in this program?  Your WWS books seem so logical and perfect for me, but I am not the student of course.  I don't care for IEW.  Any suggestions?

 

Thanks,

Sheri

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Thanks for both the chart and this information, but I'm still a little confused. This comment implies that WWS3 will get a student ready for rhetoric studies. The first column of the chart moves from WWS3 to 'persuasive essays across the curriculum' along with some more theoretical, for lack of a better word, books on writing. But where do they get the specific skills for the persuasive essay? Will those be in WWS3? I used a very good, but no longer available to me, approach with my oldest and now I'm floundering to determine how to hone those persuasive writing skills with my 9th grader.

 

Thanks

Heather

The skills to write short persuasive essays are covered in TWTM, but they also are taught on a basic level in They Say, I Say and on a more complex level in the D'Angelo and Kane texts. So essentially the student is just taking the skills taught in the recommended books and exercising them in the subject areas she's studying.

 

SWB

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Susan,

My dd is 13 and has written several (over 100 written pg.) books on her own. (Creative Writing)  I have read very little of these, because she will not let me. (I think she is afraid I will correct everything!)  I did read a page that was left up on the computer one day.  It was pretty good.  She hated WWS1 and now hates WWS2, but I feel like she needs to learn how to write these kinds of papers with documentation, etc.  Am I doing her a disservice by keeping her in this program?  Your WWS books seem so logical and perfect for me, but I am not the student of course.  I don't care for IEW.  Any suggestions?

 

Thanks,

Sheri

Kids who are natural creative writers often act like reluctant writers when they're forced to write expository nonfiction. They still have to learn how to do it.  :sad:

 

If she dislikes the program but will do it and it seems to be improving her writing, it won't hurt to keep her in WWS--she probably isn't going to love any program that makes her write in a certain format rather than giving her freedom to do whatever she wants. But if she really loathes it, you might look at Essentials in Writing, the Kilgallon programs, or possibly the writing sections in Rod & Staff.

 

SWB

[Susan Wise Bauer]

 

It sounds like there will only be three books in the WWS series?  I would like to know that now so I can plan ahead!

 

Yes...three books covered the skills I thought were essential for a pre-rhetoric course! A fourth year of work could be done simply exercising the skills taught in 1-3 across the curriculum.

 

SWB

[Spring Flower]

Kids who are natural creative writers often act like reluctant writers when they're forced to write expository nonfiction. They still have to learn how to do it.  :sad:

 

SWB

 

I have a question in a similar vein. My 6 year old DD writes like crazy but loathes writing narrations and dictations. She CAN do it but it is like pulling teeth. After reading the new recommendations, I've decided to drop WWE2 for the rest of this year. We made it to week 28 and I feel she has mastered the concepts there. When would it be a good time to pick up WWE 3? Or should I skip it all together? Should we just write across the curriculum until I feel she is ready to start WWS many years from now? I don't want to ruin the love my DD has for writing but I want to make sure she has the instruction she needs. 

[TC5]

Thank you for these updates, Susan. I especially appreciate the various paths given and options for natural writers.

 

Do you no longer recommend Weston's Rulebook for Arguments? Can you tell us why? I was planning to use it with my oldest in the coming year or two.

 

Thanks,

Teonei

 

[Crimson Wife]

Glad to see SWB giving Killgallon her stamp of approval :-)

 

I too would be curious to hear the reasoning behind dropping Weston's "Rulebook for Arguments". I recently purchased a copy of the workbook version and have been debating between that and Jill Pike's "Windows to the World"/"Teaching the Classics" syllabus for my oldest (LA is her strongest subject) next fall.

[Angie in VA]

Thank you!

[ArizonaGirl]

Thank you so much for these new recommendations!  I've been using Essentials in Writing just because my kids like it and I feel it covers the "Essentials."  I am rather heavy on supplementing it (especially for grammar), so I feel better knowing it is recommended here.

 

I love the first couple books of Writing With Ease, and they have been a lifesaver for some of my kids who just hate writing.

 

Again, thank you for the new suggestions!

[texasmama]

Fabulous. :)

[texasmama]

I have used WWS1 over two years (6th and 7th) with my child who struggles in the area of writing. It has been a very effective and fairly painless way to teach him these skills. He will start WWS2 next year. He did through level 3 of WWE and then level one of Writing Tales prior to beginning WWS. I will admit to plenty of fear about how WWS would work for him, but it has been perfect!

 

Thank you for this program. :)

[[email protected]]

The chart does not list every possible option for Rhetoric--just a few sample paths. Anthony Weston's book is still recommended in the third edition of TWTM.

 

Moderator

[TC5]

The chart does not list every possible option for Rhetoric--just a few sample paths. Anthony Weston's book is still recommended in the third edition of TWTM.

 

Moderator

 

Thank you for the clarification.

 

I will certainly look into the new recommendations, as well.

[Guest sumerd36]

I have a question about writing and grammar and I am new TWTM so I am asking this question here. I am about three weeks into homeschooling and my fourth grader (almost 5th grade) started the Rod and Staff's Following the Plan with my fifth (almost 6th) grader for grammar.  I read that there is no need for a formal writing plan when using Rod and Staff, however my almost fifth grader is struggling a bit with Rod and Staff (we are in lesson 10) and he dislikes writing. Should I start him with WWE 4 and continue using Rodd and Staff for just the grammar without the composition portions or am I getting this wrong? Should both my kids be using WWE or WWS at the same time as a formal grammar program? Because I pulled them both out of school mid- March, I am not sure where they need to be. My almost 6th grader is a much stronger writer than my 5th grader. Neither one of them have ever done dictation. There doesn't seem to be a lot of writing exercises in Rod and Staff or perhaps it is just too early to tell. I really like WWE 1, as my first grader is using it. I just don't know how to approach this with my older children.

 

Any thoughts or advise would be so appreciated!

 

[hollyhock]

Yes...three books covered the skills I thought were essential for a pre-rhetoric course! A fourth year of work could be done simply exercising the skills taught in 1-3 across the curriculum.

 

SWB

 

Does this mean your next project is an instructor text for WWS (like the WWE one)?  :drool5:  :laugh:

[Chrysalis Academy]

Does this mean your next project is an instructor text for WWS (like the WWE one)?  :drool5:  :laugh:

 

That would be sooooo awesome!!!   :hurray:

[Space station]

Thank you for the updated Suggestion list. I wanted to suggest another use of WWE4, which is that it was the perfect way for a late elementary school student new to homeschooling to jump in. We started homeschooling in 4th grade, and I used WWE4 as a way to evaluate exactly where my daughter was in her grammar and writing skills. It worked beautifully and easily, as well as exposed a deep love for poetry that we might not have found otherwise.

 

We are working through WWS1 this year (currently on week 23), and it is working very well; I have seen a huge improvement in her writing. My daughter enjoys writing poems, plays, and short stories, but was at a loss as to how to write academically. So while she falls in the category of one who is a natural creative writer, the "engineering" approach to writing academically is working for her, and she can keep the two approaches separate. (Perhaps another reason that this "engineering" approach works so well for us is that both of her parents are engineers, and the approach makes sense to her teachers!)

 

Thank you again for the updated schedule and recommendations.

[ErinE]

Does this mean your next project is an instructor text for WWS (like the WWE one)? :drool5: :laugh:

Please! The WWE instructor text helped shape my writing instruction for the younger grades. I've reviewed WWS1 and DS has worked halfway through it, but I'd prefer a similar WWS guidebook so I can integrate writing with assigned reading across subjects.

[HappyClassical]

I'm starting first grade with my daughter at end of summer and we are doing this with writeshop jr once a week. This article will be handy in years to come. Thanks!

[capecarnation]

What do the acronyms in this thread mean? It sort of reads like there is a discussion about the World Wrestling Federation or somesuch. It would be great if everytime an acronym was used that it would pop up a description when moused over!

[KathyBC]

What do the acronyms in this thread mean? It sort of reads like there is a discussion about the World Wrestling Federation or somesuch. It would be great if everytime an acronym was used that it would pop up a description when moused over!

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/1503-abbreviation-sticky/

[capecarnation]

Thanks.

[allyall]

Ahh...thank you! I just came to the boards to read/discuss this very topic and what to do with my 3rd grader for 4th grade. He has the skills from WWE3 done and I think a break from WWE before beginning WWS at half speed in 5th with him sounds perfect. My 5th grader has done pretty well at a half speed approach to WWS1. I might have put it off longer if I'd realized that was an option but really the 4 days of writing a week is what makes us crazy so a half speed approach is great.

[SheriGene]

Susan,

 

I am curious as to why you didn't recommend any of the Classical Composition books after WWS3.  

 

Sheri