xpost: DD(almost 5) struggling with her letter sounds?

[ssavings]

xposted from prek/K board.

DD will be 5 next week, and she's really struggling to learn letter sounds. 

 

She's very sweet natured and really wants to learn to read. She gets so excited when she gets something right.

But, what I'm seeing is that I will say, "This is /k/", but five minutes later, she's saying, "This is /s/". 

At what point does this become something I should look at more closely? And what should I be looking at? 

If I was going to use something more intensive with her for phonemic awareness, what would that be, and would this be the time? (We've tried AAR pre-reading, OPG, Leapfrog Letters, we have tons of toys/manipulatives.... none of them are working).

Thanks, 

Meg

[geodob]

You wrote that you say "This is k".

But what is this k ?

 

K is really just a symbol that represents a sound.

But K doesn't look anything like the sound?

What does any sound look like?

 

A fairly common problem that young children have, is with understanding the idea of 'symbols'?

Where they might understand symbols to represent something tangible?

Such as a symbol/ logo for a type of burger.

Where a symbol has something tangible to associate it with.

But if you consider the statement: 'This is k'.

This a dog, this is a hat, this is a k.

 

Where it can be helpful to explain how we use symbols to represent sounds.

But don't look anything like the sound.

Though when we put 2 different symbols/ letters together, that they become a symbol for another sound.

 

So perhaps she just needs to make sense of: 'This is k'?

[OneStepAtATime]

Some kids just need more time and maturity and gentle exposure before they are ready to read.  Others need more explicit, systematic instruction in phonics.  Others need a combination of approaches to help make the connections.  

 

When you say "this is /k/" are you associating the /k/ sound with two different letters?  Different situations?  C and K and CK all can make the /k/ sound.  English is extremely confusing.  For instance, milk is spelled with a "K", truck is spelled with a "ck" and music is spelled with a "c", yet ALL of these words make the /k/ sound at the end.

 

My suggestion is to read to her and with her a LOT.  Read basic books with her and point to the words as you read.  Read more advanced books TO her so she can hear the more advanced vocabulary and concepts.  And slowly keep working with phonics based instruction.  There are a LOT of exceptions or differences in the way we pronounce various letters and different letter combinations change those sounds.  And different local pronunciations can make distinguishing between different vowel sounds and even consonant sounds very tricky.  

 

Honestly, I would keep reading with and to her, give her more time to mature, and if she is still having trouble in a few months, then maybe give her the Barton Reading and Spelling student screening (link below) to see if there may be some sound discrimination issues she is dealing with.  The screening is free, easy to administer and you are not obligated to buy anything from the Barton site.  

 

https://www.bartonreading.com/students_long.html#screen

 

Also, if she is still struggling in a few months you might want to get her eyes checked through a Developmental Optometrist (not an Opthalmologist or a normal Optometrist) since some eye issues are hard to catch.  My son has 20/15+ vision, yet also has a developmental eye issue that wasn't caught for 10 years because normal eye doctors didn't know to look for it.  I am attaching a link to the COVD site since they can provide a list of some of the Developmental Optometrists that might be able to assess (but get local reviews since not all docs are created equal).

 

http://www.covd.org/

 

 

Edited to add that a phonics based program used consistently and systematically might help, but that would depend on whether she just needs some time developmentally, and/or there are possible underlying undiagnosed issues (vision, auditory discrimination, etc.).  All About Reading/All About Spelling combined has helped a lot of kids.  If you check on other threads on this board you may find quite a few options that might work.  Barton Reading and Spelling is what I am using with my two dyslexic children but it CAN be used with neurotypical kids, too.  It can be overkill, though, if your child doesn't have any issues with phonics.  Read other threads on this board and see if you run across anything that sounds like it might help.  

 

Best wishes.  Don't get too stressed.  She is young and you have time.  

 

[ElizabethB]

http://www.uiowa.edu/~acadtech/phonetics/#

 

I like these charts:

 

https://www.phonovisual.com/products.php?c=1

 

The book on the Phonovisual method might have some good ideas for you, I will find the link and add it for you.

[PeterPan]

There's an awful lot of phonemic awareness you can work on before you focus on the rough and dirty of reading.  How was she with rhyming?  Can she hear the sounds in a word?  Can she glue sounds together to make a word?  Can she unglue simple words into component sounds?  Can she discriminate close sounds and words (ship, shop)?  My ds at that age couldn't hear any rhyming, despite all our work.  He has a speech problem, so it's no shock.  Really though, I wouldn't assume someone has a problem at age 4 when they have no other indications (no speech issues, no attention issues, no hearing issues, no other oddities at all.)

 

I would go mark the date 9/8/14 on your calendar and pick back up with phonics then.  See what happens.  She might be a new child just for having 6 more months to develop.  In the meantime, play word games, visual discrimination games, work on phonemic awareness with puzzles, etc. etc.  

[ssavings]

There's an awful lot of phonemic awareness you can work on before you focus on the rough and dirty of reading.  How was she with rhyming?  Can she hear the sounds in a word?  Can she glue sounds together to make a word?  Can she unglue simple words into component sounds?  Can she discriminate close sounds and words (ship, shop)?  My ds at that age couldn't hear any rhyming, despite all our work.  He has a speech problem, so it's no shock.  Really though, I wouldn't assume someone has a problem at age 4 when they have no other indications (no speech issues, no attention issues, no hearing issues, no other oddities at all.)

 

I would go mark the date 9/8/14 on your calendar and pick back up with phonics then.  See what happens.  She might be a new child just for having 6 more months to develop.  In the meantime, play word games, visual discrimination games, work on phonemic awareness with puzzles, etc. etc.  

She is very hit-or-miss with rhyming. If I ask "Hey, K, what rhymes with ??", or if her older siblings are rhyming - she gets a bit overwhelmed and tends to repeat back the last word that was said to her. But if I hand her three phonetic objects from our Montessori supplies (say, a hat, a bat, and a mop) she can always pick the two that have names that rhyme. She can also tell me if the names for two objects given to her do not rhyme. Less consistent if I ask her orally. No idea why, maybe she's just comfortable with the manipulatives?

 

How would I tell if she's hearing the sounds in words?

 

She cannot glue the sounds together to make a word, nor unglue the sounds. Honestly, she's likely to start making up random sounds and inserting them. We've worked with a white board, orally, and Montessori letters.   

 

She can discriminate words in context, but is inconsistent with understanding a specific word out of context. For example, last week I asked if she was ready to shop, and she responded by changing her shirt - thinking I'd asked about her top. Today, I said "Snack?" and she handed me an infant toy with snaps. But she'd easily understand "shop" or "snack" if the words were in the context of a full thought. 

 

Despite what I'm certain appears like  lot of complaints/worry, I want to clarify that she is actually quite smart. She has a wonderful vocabulary, great listening comprehension, good math skills, and a great imagination.  It just feels like something isn't quite clicking, and I just can't tell if it's a developmental thing or a "thing" thing, KWIM?

 

I'll mark the calendar and revisit in 6 months. :-)

 

 

 

[ssavings]

 

When you say "this is /k/" are you associating the /k/ sound with two different letters?  Different situations?  C and K and CK all can make the /k/ sound.  English is extremely confusing.  For instance, milk is spelled with a "K", truck is spelled with a "ck" and music is spelled with a "c", yet ALL of these words make the /k/ sound at the end.

 

I apologize, my context was unclear. In that specific situation (which occurred a few months ago) she asked me what the sound was for a letter "c" tactile card. But she could not repeat the sound back to me just a moment later. 

 

I'll give her more time. 

 

Thanks.. :)

[Ottakee]

.   

 

She can discriminate words in context, but is inconsistent with understanding a specific word out of context. For example, last week I asked if she was ready to shop, and she responded by changing her shirt - thinking I'd asked about her top. Today, I said "Snack?" and she handed me an infant toy with snaps. But she'd easily understand "shop" or "snack" if the words were in the context of a full thought. 

 

 

 

 

Has she ever had a full hearing tests?  Like the kind done by an audiologist that works with kids?  It could be that she is not hearing things clearly but can figure them out in context.

[ssavings]

Has she ever had a full hearing tests?  Like the kind done by an audiologist that works with kids?  It could be that she is not hearing things clearly but can figure them out in context.

At three months, one, and two - standard for children admitted to our hospital NICU for jaundice. All were perfect, 

 

Should I repeat?

[Ottakee]

Do you think there is a hearing problem?  Things can change over time and some of those tests don't test for certain tones, etc.

[PeterPan]

She is very hit-or-miss with rhyming. If I ask "Hey, K, what rhymes with ??", or if her older siblings are rhyming - she gets a bit overwhelmed and tends to repeat back the last word that was said to her. But if I hand her three phonetic objects from our Montessori supplies (say, a hat, a bat, and a mop) she can always pick the two that have names that rhyme. She can also tell me if the names for two objects given to her do not rhyme. Less consistent if I ask her orally. No idea why, maybe she's just comfortable with the manipulatives?

 

How would I tell if she's hearing the sounds in words?

 

She cannot glue the sounds together to make a word, nor unglue the sounds. Honestly, she's likely to start making up random sounds and inserting them. We've worked with a white board, orally, and Montessori letters.   

 

She can discriminate words in context, but is inconsistent with understanding a specific word out of context. For example, last week I asked if she was ready to shop, and she responded by changing her shirt - thinking I'd asked about her top. Today, I said "Snack?" and she handed me an infant toy with snaps. But she'd easily understand "shop" or "snack" if the words were in the context of a full thought. 

 

Despite what I'm certain appears like  lot of complaints/worry, I want to clarify that she is actually quite smart. She has a wonderful vocabulary, great listening comprehension, good math skills, and a great imagination.  It just feels like something isn't quite clicking, and I just can't tell if it's a developmental thing or a "thing" thing, KWIM?

 

I'll mark the calendar and revisit in 6 months. :-)

 

 

 

 

 

Has she ever had a full hearing tests?  Like the kind done by an audiologist that works with kids?  It could be that she is not hearing things clearly but can figure them out in context.

I agree.  I said 6 months to wait on another phonics program.  That would be normal, because in 6 months she'll be starting K5 officially and the amount of time can make a difference.  But I would NOT wait 6 months on figuring out why she can't discriminate shop and shirt.  That's a problem.  

 

With the rhyming, when we do Earobics the rhyming is selecting the one that does NOT rhyme from a field, which it sounds like she does reasonably well.  When you asked her to give you a word that rhymes with xyz, you're adding to the task *word retrieval*.  Does that make sense?  That's MUCH harder.  With my ds, I have rhyming dominoes with pictures and we lay them down, working on rhymes.  There he doesn't have to think up a word because it's in front of him.  My dd has issues with word retrieval and processing speed, so it's just one of those things in the back of my mind when I work on a skill.  It's just easy to confuse skills and not realize it, because you're not working on them in isolation.  It's the kind of stuff they tease apart in evals.

 

You have a lot of examples of her not hearing things correctly.  Sometimes it's a simple solution like earwax build-up, so it would be good if you could figure out what's going on.  Hearing is so pivotal to their language development.    

 

Adding: Ottakee is onto something with her comment about the tones.  I'm not up on it, but I know our SLP said if problems discriminating certain sounds continued, she'd refer off for a hearing eval and that she could actually tell them what tones and whatnot to check.  There could be a pattern to the sounds that are being missed that would clue an audiologist in to something going on.

[PeterPan]

I'll just add one more thing.  You are VERY RIGHT to come to the boards and push for help when you're seeing these kind of contradictions.  You're the one that's going to see things first, because you're the one working with her.  Don't doubt yourself at all on this.  You'll have no regrets if you push for a hearing eval with an audiologist, push for a ped check (you know, ears, etc.), etc. etc.  What people regret is when they see these oddities and DON'T check and don't get the evals or screenings done.  Then they come back and their teen is 10-12 (or older) still having problems and they're starting into the process.  So you're NOT crazy and no one here faults you at all for saying something isn't right with your bright kid.  That's the position of quite a few of the moms on the board here, and there WERE problems.  Sometimes that really subjective sense is all you have to go on, and it's the right thing to ask for help and make sure.  We'll be interested to hear how it goes when you find out what was going on.  :)

 

Despite what I'm certain appears like  lot of complaints/worry, I want to clarify that she is actually quite smart. She has a wonderful vocabulary, great listening comprehension, good math skills, and a great imagination.  It just feels like something isn't quite clicking, and I just can't tell if it's a developmental thing or a "thing" thing, KWIM?
 

 

[ElizabethB]

I found it, here is the online phonvisual book, lots of great ideas and encouragement, for example "These first five sounds must be taught thoroughly....Two or even three weeks spent in training the pupils' ears on this first group of sounds will prove to have been time well spent.  The importance of slowness and repetition at this stage cannot be overstressed.  If the children learn these first five sounds so that they have them "in their backbones," the other sounds will come much more easily.  The ears have been sharpened; the child knows how to listen and to distinguish variations."  The book also has fun ways and ideas to teach the sounds and letters.

http://archive.org/stream/phonovisualmetho00scho#page/n0/mode/2up

Pollard is also fun and detailed if you want something different, it has fun ways to introduce and explain letter sounds and her manual is explicit, you can see them online and order an old actual book if you like from somewhere like ABE books or Alibris. I like the first book for little folk, all the Pollard books are linked a bit more than 1/4 down this page, they are free online:

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/phonicsandspelli.html

[Ottakee]

I found it, here is the online phonvisual book, lots of great ideas and encouragement, for example "These first five sounds must be taught thoroughly....Two or even three weeks spent in training the pupils' ears on this first group of sounds will prove to have been time well spent.  The importance of slowness and repetition at this stage cannot be overstressed.  If the children learn these first five sounds so that they have them "in their backbones," the other sounds will come much more easily.  The ears have been sharpened; the child knows how to listen and to distinguish variations."  The book also has fun ways and ideas to teach the sounds and letters.

http://archive.org/stream/phonovisualmetho00scho#page/n0/mode/2up

 

Pollard is also fun and detailed if you want something different, it has fun ways to introduce and explain letter sounds and her manual is explicit, you can see them online and order an old actual book if you like from somewhere like ABE books or Alibris. I like the first book for little folk, all the Pollard books are linked a bit more than 1/4 down this page, they are free online:

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/phonicsandspelli.html

 

I don't have time to read the first article now but that is interesting.  The I See Sam books (from the late 60s/early 70s) take this approach to phonics.  They teach the S, M first and then the short a, ee (long sound) and I (as the long sound/word) and their first 2 books use only these sounds.  Then they SLOWLY build up from there adding in a new sound every few days and using it over and over again in order to get lots of practice with it.  They also keep b and d, p and q, etc. far apart in instruction which lessens the trouble remembering which is which.

 

As weird as it sounds, the first book IS the hardest to work through.  It took my daughter weeks to do that one but as she progressed she went faster and faster even when more new sounds and complex words were introduced.

 

Check out www.iseesam.com or www.3rsplus.com

 

[PeterPan]

LIPS does something similar with their vertical path, introducing just a few sounds and getting them solid before introducing more.  Thing is, it would concern me why an almost 5 yo isn't distinguishing shirt and ship in everyday speech.  You still want to figure out what's going on there.

[ssavings]

I'll schedule an appointment to have hear hearing checked, then go from there.

[PeterPan]

I'll schedule an appointment to have hear hearing checked, then go from there.

Audiologist or ped?  Let us know how it goes!   :)

 

Btw, it was the ladies on the board here who diagnosed my ds' speech problem and pointed me in the right direction 3 1/2, almost 4 years ago.  I know how odd it is to have that happen, and it's sort of unhappy and stressful to hear there might be something wrong.  And you know, maybe there's not or it's something really easy like cleaning the ears.  You just never know.  Glad  you're getting it checked though.  :)

[ssavings]

Audiologist. :-)

[OneStepAtATime]

Good luck with the audiologist eval!  

 

And OhE is right, you are doing the right thing by asking questions and seeking answers now.  I wish I had gone with my mommy instincts when the kids were little instead of listening to the advice of teachers and family and friends for years and years.  While some kids just need a bit more maturation, my kids really did need a specialized reading and spelling program designed for dyslexics so they could learn to read and spell.  If we had started it when they were 4, no they probably would not have done all that well.  I think they also needed additional time to mature.  But they definitely needed an OG based system to learn to read and spell, and probably would have done wonderfully if we had started them with that type of system at age 5 or so, but it was something they didn't get for years, unfortunately.

[PeterPan]

Good luck with the audiologist eval!  

 

And OhE is right, you are doing the right thing by asking questions and seeking answers now.  I wish I had gone with my mommy instincts when the kids were little instead of listening to the advice of teachers and family and friends for years and years.  While some kids just need a bit more maturation, my kids really did need a specialized reading and spelling program designed for dyslexics so they could learn to read and spell.  If we had started it when they were 4, no they probably would not have done all that well.  I think they also needed additional time to mature.  But they definitely needed an OG based system to learn to read and spell, and probably would have done wonderfully if we had started them with that type of system at age 5 or so, but it was something they didn't get for years, unfortunately.

OneStep, if it makes you feel any better, I've been trying and trying with ds.  I know SWR, WRTR, AAS, PR, you name the program, forward and backward.  I can do phonetics in multiple languages.  None of that makes any difference and 5 isn't magical.  Today he seems to hear pretty consistently initial consonants and actually realize they're initial consonants, not end sounds.  He can appreciate rhymes and tries to make them.  It's just slow-going even when you do know the methods and how to break through.  I plant the seeds, water, and wait.  Even getting in at 5 with all the best methods doesn't seem to change much.  It's just a lot of mental work, so he'll do 1 or 2 simple cvc words using a limited selection of letters and only A for the vowel and just lose focus (from mental fatigue?) by the 3rd word.  Like I said, I'm glad I'm in here planting the seeds, but it's not like *if you had just known* you could have swept in and solved the problem.  Rest assured on that point at least.  I know the methods and I can't solve it.   :(

 

On the plus side, the analysis of LIPS actually seems to work for him and be sticking.  It's just going to take a lot of reinforcement and time for all this to come together.  I'm encouraged by the idea that what we're doing actually sticks.  It's just then to process that info is very hard and another step.  

[Heathermomster]

OP, what reading program are you currently using?  

 

Beside ensuring the ears are good, maybe have her eyes checked and consider adding a kinesthetic element when you work with your DD.    A kinesthetic element might look like saying the letter sound while forming the phonogram shape in the air or in shaving cream.  

 

 

 

 

[ssavings]

We started with Montessori-based (sandpaper letter cards/phonetic objects with movable alphabet, etc.). We tried AAR pre-reading for a few months, then moved to OPG (which, admittedly, we barely started with. I could tell it wasn't going to work for her within a few days), and were using The Reading Lesson until a few days ago. We've incorporated the Montessori manipulatives into all the programs, though, so she's getting the tactile input. 

I scheduled an audiologist appointment in 3 weeks, and a vision appointment in 2 weeks. I also had the naturopath check her ears for fluid/wax today, and took her to the chiropractor. :-)

 

[OneStepAtATime]

OneStep, if it makes you feel any better, I've been trying and trying with ds.  I know SWR, WRTR, AAS, PR, you name the program, forward and backward.  I can do phonetics in multiple languages.  None of that makes any difference and 5 isn't magical.  Today he seems to hear pretty consistently initial consonants and actually realize they're initial consonants, not end sounds.  He can appreciate rhymes and tries to make them.  It's just slow-going even when you do know the methods and how to break through.  I plant the seeds, water, and wait.  Even getting in at 5 with all the best methods doesn't seem to change much.  It's just a lot of mental work, so he'll do 1 or 2 simple cvc words using a limited selection of letters and only A for the vowel and just lose focus (from mental fatigue?) by the 3rd word.  Like I said, I'm glad I'm in here planting the seeds, but it's not like *if you had just known* you could have swept in and solved the problem.  Rest assured on that point at least.  I know the methods and I can't solve it.   :(

 

On the plus side, the analysis of LIPS actually seems to work for him and be sticking.  It's just going to take a lot of reinforcement and time for all this to come together.  I'm encouraged by the idea that what we're doing actually sticks.  It's just then to process that info is very hard and another step.  

 

Thanks OhE...

We started with Montessori-based (sandpaper letter cards/phonetic objects with movable alphabet, etc.). We tried AAR pre-reading for a few months, then moved to OPG (which, admittedly, we barely started with. I could tell it wasn't going to work for her within a few days), and were using The Reading Lesson until a few days ago. We've incorporated the Montessori manipulatives into all the programs, though, so she's getting the tactile input. 

 

I scheduled an audiologist appointment in 3 weeks, and a vision appointment in 2 weeks. I also had the naturopath check her ears for fluid/wax today, and took her to the chiropractor. :-)

 

 

Good luck!  

[PeterPan]

We started with Montessori-based (sandpaper letter cards/phonetic objects with movable alphabet, etc.). We tried AAR pre-reading for a few months, then moved to OPG (which, admittedly, we barely started with. I could tell it wasn't going to work for her within a few days), and were using The Reading Lesson until a few days ago. We've incorporated the Montessori manipulatives into all the programs, though, so she's getting the tactile input. 

 

I scheduled an audiologist appointment in 3 weeks, and a vision appointment in 2 weeks. I also had the naturopath check her ears for fluid/wax today, and took her to the chiropractor. :-)

 

 

You're awesome!  What a ton you're getting done!   :)  It's like that though, isn't it, where you sort of have to dissect them a while and look for EVERYTHING before you figure out what's going on...  Glad to hear your efforts are going well so far.   :)

 

And yes, that AAR pre should have taken care of it if it was within the realm of normal.  Btw, I can't remember if we asked, but was her speech acquisition normal?  My ds couldn't distinguish sounds that he couldn't say, but he has verbal apraxia, throwing the whole thing off.  

[ssavings]

Okay, the audiologist had a cancellation this morning, so we got her in early (awesome!). 

They did an OAE in the office, rather than an ABR test at the children's hospital. She passed the OAE in all tones in both ears. The audiologist saw no need to do an ABR based on the OAE results.

Vision appointment is scheduled for the 25th. 

ETA: The audiologist wasn't being dismissive, I didn't want it to sound that way. She just was fairly sure nothing has changed in her hearing since her last perfect ABR, based on the OAE results. 

 

[ssavings]

You're awesome!  What a ton you're getting done!   :)  It's like that though, isn't it, where you sort of have to dissect them a while and look for EVERYTHING before you figure out what's going on...  Glad to hear your efforts are going well so far.   :)

 

And yes, that AAR pre should have taken care of it if it was within the realm of normal.  Btw, I can't remember if we asked, but was her speech acquisition normal?  My ds couldn't distinguish sounds that he couldn't say, but he has verbal apraxia, throwing the whole thing off.  

Speech acquisition was normal....

[PeterPan]

You're way outta my league here, but did she check *processing* as well as hearing?  

 

If you don't get any answer on that, you could start a new thread here and just ask flat-out what explanations there are for a 5 yo not being able to distinguish ship and shirt in everyday speech.  You could also look at The Mislabeled Child.  

 

Sorry, outta my league.  Here's a bump for someone else try.  :)