Oh the horror...

[bettyandbob]

My friend relocated to Texas and is subbing in public schools in the San Antonio area. She has years of teaching experience in a couple of other states. 

 

She just told me that in elementary school Pi is taught at 3.00. 3.14 is introduced in middle school. I'm afraid they don't mention fractional form. She just said dumbing down. 

 

BUT why would you call 3.00 "Pi". 3.00 is three. Wouldn't that be more confusing than decimal points. Do some kids then call 3 "Pi", generalizing in the other direction. 

 

If you think you can't talk about the concept correctly, don't introduce it all. Better to not teach it, than to teach it so blantantly wrong. 

[OnTheBrink]

I completely agree. 

[Mrs Mungo]

I don't know why you would introduce a concept to teach it completely wrong.

[Ali in OR]

Singapore math doesn't even teach circles until middle school (7th grade I think). I agree that it would be much better to not teach it at all yet rather than dumb it down so much that it's mathematically false. Ugh.

[Tiberia]

I teach Pi as 3.14159 

 

...and I feel guilty for cutting it short. 

 

I allow kids to use 3.14 sometimes, but feel like a real slouch. 

 

Yes, it's horrible. I feel your pain and outrage. :grouphug:  

 

Pi day is coming up, by the way. Always a fun day in our house. :hurray:

 

 

[FaithManor]

This kind of crazy occurs in my local ps all the time. They introduce a concept way too developmentally early, have to dumb it down or teach a fallacy in order to get the kids to work with the concept, and then brag to the community that the district is so competitive because, "Look what our kids are doing so young".  Meanwhile, half of the algebra 1 class can not add one fourth and one third.

 

Sigh.....Pi Day is a fun day here.

[happypamama]

Headdesk. That's just ridiculous. I agree with the PP who said why introduce a concept just to introduce it so wrong.

[JessReplanted]

That's interesting. In my son's math (CLE), they first introduced Circumference as "about" 3xDiameter. Then, in the 5th grade curriculum they said

that C= Pi x D, and Pi is 3.14.  I thought the sudden change was odd, but I understand they wanted to introduce the relationship between Diameter and Circumference.

 

Could this be similar to what your friend is talking about?

[WishboneDawn]

I think that's ridiculous. If the concept of Pi is beyond the kids then why bother with it at all? Or it could be introduced as 22/7. Heck, I was very shaky on what Pi was until I started homeschooling and saw it written as 22/7 in some book on the history of math. All of a sudden it made sense because written as a fraction it relates more directly to what it represents.

[Χά�ων]

I don't know why you would introduce a concept to teach it completely wrong.

Seems par for the course going on my elementary education. We were repeatedly taught one thing every year, until we were older then suddenly it was something different. Most of the kids just accepted the new information (I guess they had forgotten the old information that was presented yearly for the past 4 years) I asked why we were taught the old information only to be told that it was incorrect and the new piece of information was correct and I said that since I had no way of knowing if this new information was correct that I could not believe anything they told me. 

 

I was not loved by my teachers.

[Wheres Toto]

I'm trying to figure out why they would introduce Pi.  I would assume they are teaching shapes and how to find the area of shapes, and if the class hasn't done decimals/fractions yet, they estimate or round off.  I would expect there to be an explanation of what Pi really is and why they are doing it that way, and make sure it's understood that they are rounding it off, but if that wasn't the main point of the lesson, I guess it makes sense.  Sort of.

 

I've been surprised by how many math curricula put a lot of emphasis on estimating and rounding in younger grades.  I don't remember spending so much time figuring out how much something ALMOST equals.  I can see it being handy skill to have doing mental math but it seems like a TON of time is spent on it in some programs. 

 

That said, my son learned a little bit about Pi last night, completely accidentally.  He also ran away yelling "aaaahhhh, you're confusing me with your mathy math talk".  :001_rolleyes:

[PIE!]

NNOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

 

But on a side note - my kids are really excited for pi day next year - as the year will be '15. We plan to celebrate at exactly 9:26 am :)

[Butter]

Could be our school district.  They don't tell them Pi is 3.  They tell them Pi is a neverending number.  BUT, for ease of calculating, they use 3.  My son is in 6th grade.  The pre-ap math kids calculate using 3.14.  The regular math kids (including my son) calculate using 3.  They were told what Pi actually is (including the fractional form).  They were also told why they are rounding to 3.  It's not dumbing down at all.  It's to help them be likely to get the correct answer.  They are more concerned that the kids understand the formulas (PiD, PiRSquared, etc.) than get bogged down in the decimal places when doing the multiplication.  It's not confusing for the kids at all.

[regentrude]

She just told me that in elementary school Pi is taught at 3.00. 3.14 is introduced in middle school. I'm afraid they don't mention fractional form.

 

There is no fractional form for pi, because pi is an irrational number. Teaching that pi can be approximated by a fraction would be completely useless.

 

I do not really see why this creates such a big outcry. 3.14 is also just an approximation - just two more digits. For elementary school students who do not know about decimals, they approximate to 3. There is nothing qualitatively better about 3.14 than about 3 - both are approximations for pi, one more accurate than the other - but no principal difference.

 

I could see having elementary students do a discovery project and have them find out that the ratio between circumference and diameter of different circles always comes to to approximately 3. That is a very interesting and important result. I see nothing wrong with leaving it at "approximately 3" for students who have yet to learn about decimals.

 

[bettyandbob]

There is no fractional form for pi, because pi is an irrational number. Teaching that pi can be approximated by a fraction would be completely useless.

 

I do not really see why this creates such a big outcry. 3.14 is also just an approximation - just two more digits. For elementary school students who do not know about decimals, they approximate to 3. There is nothing qualitatively better about 3.14 than about 3 - both are approximations for pi, one more accurate than the other - but no principal difference.

Yes, but...

 

What my friend is observing is NOT that the kids are LEARNING the number/decimal/fraction is an approximation. Perhaps there is a lesson where teachers are supposed to say that , but the message is clearly not getting across. Kids are learning Pi is 3, whether or not the original intent was to present an approximation first. That is the problem.

 

Perhaps the teachers themselves do not get Pi and so conveying what the curriculum suggest is lost. I'm not sure Pi must be taught in general math prior to middle school,anyway. In middle school teachers begin to be specialists so I would guess they would have more expertise and understanding of these types of concepts and be able to convey better. I do know some elementary teachers who are extremely gifted at math and teaching math, but I find that not the norm among elementary teachers.

[Butter]

As a sub... you don't always see the truth in the classroom.

 

The curriculum calls for telling elementary kids that Pi is a neverending number that can be rounded to 3 (which is completely valid... just depends on how many decimal places you want to round to).

[bettyandbob]

As a sub... you don't always see the truth in the classroom.

 

The curriculum calls for telling elementary kids that Pi is a neverending number that can be rounded to 3 (which is completely valid... just depends on how many decimal places you want to round to).

 

I think my friend knows what she is seeing. It is the reason why she is looking for work outside of education. Honestly, I see this and other problems in high schoolers. i have several levels of math at an alternative school and it's just wrong that a student can pass the required classes and get to algebra II with the skills (complete lack of math skills) I see. 

 

My friend is planning a big pie for her grandson's first birthday on 3/14. Grandson is the reason she relocated. 

[dirty ethel rackham]

Why are they bothering with Pi in elementary school?  If they can't do fractions and decimals, then they are not ready for the concept of Pi ... period.  What idiocy!  It's like someone decided "well, let's through circumferences in elementary school because XYZ school in QRS country does it in this grade.  To heck with whether or not they have the requisite skills for this!"  Arrgg!

[myfunnybunch]

:huh:

 

:svengo:

[myfunnybunch]

Perhaps the teachers themselves do not get Pi and so conveying what the curriculum suggest is lost.

 

This.

 

I really believe that we need to re-vamp our education system so that elementary school math is taught by elementary math specialists.

 

Cat

[dirty ethel rackham]

This.

 

I really believe that we need to re-vamp our education system so that elementary school math is taught by elementary math specialists.

 

Cat

 

I find it so interesting that there are a whole slew of endorsements for elementary school teachers in language arts but NONE in math.  When I was a secondary education major in college, I was appalled at the poor math skills of the elementary ed majors.  I could not believe that these were the people teaching the basics in math for young people.  They could decorate a mean bulletin board, but they struggled with fractions themselves.  And this was at our state's flagship university, where the entrance requirements to get in were much higher than most schools in the state. 

 

ETA: not slamming all elem ed majors, as there were some that were smart cookies, but it seemed that most of the rest went into that field because they loved children and hated math. 

 

[bettyandbob]

I have let my license expire a few times. Each time I have updated my license I have been required to take reading and writing tests, but never basic math. I really think if a teaching license requires basic reading and writing exams then applicants should also pass exams on basic math through Algebra 1. 

 

I'm certified K-12 sp ed. I have a highly qualified designation to teach high school science and secondary sp ed science and math. Anytime someone wants to hire me I am asked to prove I can read and write. Yet, I've never been hired specifically to teach reading and writing. The thing that has also gotten my foot in the door is having paper qualifications to teach science and math. I have never been asked to prove I have the skills I am hired to teach. I do not know any teachers who had to take math exams as part of certification. 

[Tammi K]

It reminds me of a Simpsons episode where Lisa is trying to get a large group of scientist to give her their attention. She tries in vane until, at last, she cries out, "Pi is exactly 3!" The group collectively gasps and quiet ensues.   Who says cartoons aren't educational?

 

ETA: Sorry, it wasn't Lisa. It was Professor Frink. 

[Joanne]

If you are developmentally ready to "Pi", you should be ready for 3.14.........

[Butter]

Why are they bothering with Pi in elementary school?  If they can't do fractions and decimals, then they are not ready for the concept of Pi ... period.  What idiocy!  It's like someone decided "well, let's through circumferences in elementary school because XYZ school in QRS country does it in this grade.  To heck with whether or not they have the requisite skills for this!"  Arrgg!

 

My 6th grader (which is middle school here, not elementary) can do decimals.  They did decimals already.  However, I can guarantee you multiplying by 3.14 would mean a whole lot of math errors for him, but multiplying by 3 makes it so he has success.  He knows Pi is actually 3.1415...  He appreciates not having to take it out to however many decimal places.  Seriously, it's about knowing the formula for finding the circumference or area of a circle.  It's not about getting an exact number.  When's the last time you needed to figure out a problem with Pi in it?  But I bet you know PiRSquared and PiD (and know what the R and D stand for and how to find them) and if someone asked you to find the circumference/area of a circle you'd probably pull out a calculator.  It's a matter of how many decimal places you want to round to and 3.14 rounded to the nearest whole number is indeed 3.  I've seen dumbing down.  This isn't one of those situations.  They aren't being told Pi=3.  They are being told to round Pi to 3.

[Paige]

But why should multiplying decimals be so hard? It's not really any different than multiplying 3 digits without decimals. It boils down to counting the decimal places and sticking them back in at the end, or keeping them lined up; however you want to do it... Unless I'm doing it wrong...Can't most 5th and 6th graders do that easily?

[lexi]

My friend is a K teacher in San Antonio. She spent the last week teaching the concept of a vertex to her class. Very few of them can read but she had to drill that into them. Why do they need to know that in K?

She is very frustrated at the amount of info she has to present that she feels is developmentally inappropriate.

[Kathryn]

But why should multiplying decimals be so hard? It's not really any different than multiplying 3 digits without decimals. It boils down to counting the decimal places and sticking them back in at the end, or keeping them lined up; however you want to do it... Unless I'm doing it wrong...Can't most 5th and 6th graders do that easily?

I agree. If my 8yo can multiply money by hand (meaning with two decimal places), he can multiply by 3.14.

[wapiti]

But why should multiplying decimals be so hard? It's not really any different than multiplying 3 digits without decimals. It boils down to counting the decimal places and sticking them back in at the end, or keeping them lined up; however you want to do it... Unless I'm doing it wrong...Can't most 5th and 6th graders do that easily?

 

What you have described is the rote procedure.  The fraction concepts underlying arithmetic with decimals aren't typically introduced until around 4th-5th grade.

[Butter]

But why should multiplying decimals be so hard? It's not really any different than multiplying 3 digits without decimals. It boils down to counting the decimal places and sticking them back in at the end, or keeping them lined up; however you want to do it... Unless I'm doing it wrong...Can't most 5th and 6th graders do that easily?

 

Because many of the kids in regular math classes in 6th grade have learning disabilities.  The Pre-AP (our term for honors, basically; the only options are regular and pre-AP) kids do pi as 3.14,  I have to check my son's math homework every day because he usually has about 50% of the answers wrong due to math errors, generally from difficulty reading his own writing and lining things up properly in his crazy handwriting and sometimes reversing numbers (he has a learning disability that includes components very similar to dysgraphia and dyslexia).  He can do the formulas fine, but actually doing the math, the more numbers there are the more likely he'll make a mistake.  He can certainly do the decimal place counting.  I appreciate him being able to use just 3 for pi on tests (where I'm not checking his work and having him redo the ones he got wrong) because the odds of him getting the answers right are much higher than if he was, basically, multiplying by 314 (and then count the decimal places two times) for every problem.  It's great that a pp's 8 year old can do that.  So can my 7 year old.  Not all kids have it so easy.  At least half of my son's math class has kids with diagnosed learning disabilities (from what I understand more 6th graders are in pre-AP than in regular math).