If Your Goal is an Internationally Competitive Education...

[regentrude]

This is an interesting question - where did that attitude come from? is it the cause of English being the international language it is today? or is the cause that first the British empire was so vast and then that the US was a major force in world affairs that it ended up being so widely used? Is there something innate in the Anglo Saxon brain that pushes English? or is it cultural? or none of the above?

 

It's the hubris of the colonizers.

 

For the time frame I was referring to, English was no international language, and the US was not yet a major force in the world.

 

 

[shage]

Interesting discussion.

 

With regards to using a second (or third) language on the job, I am in the process of helping hire legal translators here in the US.  The traditionally trained translators weren't working out because of poor cultural literacy--basically they weren't familiar with the street and prison slang, and had minimal knowledge of the drug and mental health worlds.  Our best translator so far is a young man who is on probation from juvenile detention who spent several years in solitary working on correspondence English and writing classes online.

 

That gave us the idea to contact the juvenile parole officers and find translators that way, especially for the smaller languages like Mien and Pashto.  We can't use individuals with adult prison records because they don't pass the security clearances.  But the juveniles with sealed records are an option.

 

I do love this part of the job.  There is something immensely satisfying working with young adults who have had craptastic lives and help them adapt to a professional environment where their life circumstances can be translated into a skill set that earns them a legitimate wage.

 

All this to say, it is unlikely that my children learning a second language will help them much in the job market if they are here in the US.  If they end up working in business or academic settings, English will suffice. If they end up working with a  less educated population, they will lack the cultural literacy.

 

Still, languages are just all kinds of fascination and fun.  I can't say that I have done a great job teaching foreign language in our homeschool, but I do think I have helped instill in them a respect for languages and how interesting and fun they can be.

 

[rdj2027]

I educate my children so that they have options.  When I was growing up in Germany there really would not have been a need for me to speak English, not even in my job.  However, being fluent in English was a great advantage when I immigrated to the US.  Having lived in the US I also never had a need for an Asian language but now it looks like we will be getting orders to Japan.  I am glad I have dabbled in Japanese for no other reason than that a high school friend took it and dragged me along to lessons because he did not want to go alone. I could have dropped math after 10th grade and swore for many years that I would do so because I was never in my life going into a STEM oriented job and my math experience in school was lousy.  A few years later, namely when I got it in my head to study geology at a well known research university, I was rather glad that I kept math all the way to the end and could produce the little sheet of paper that stated I had fulfilled the prerequisite of calculus.  Life is ever changing and a solid basic education allows one to be able to adapt to these changes.

 

In addition we also believe that shared experiences help one to fit in.  When we go to Germany, my children can participate in a conversation about the horror of having to study Latin, they can discuss the finer points of certain literary works because they are familiar with the writings as well as literary analysis.  They know how a soccer game is scored and they can ask deeper questions concerning the news because they have a background in the history of numerous countries.

 

None of this will really help them get a job or do that job well but being able to integrate yourself into a society and connect with its people is something that I think many people undervalue.

 

I think there is a cultural divide between the purpose of education as seen in the US and in the cultural tradition in Germany. I have noticed this many times in many different situations.

The typical Americans approach to education is utilitarian: do I need the skill for a job? How much more money can I make if I need this skill?

I am coming from a cultural tradition that values education for its own sake. People were supposed to be multilingual not because they traveled or conversed with natives, but because speaking and reading several languages was the hallmark of an educated person.

 

 

While I agree that a broad education is important, even it it has no immediate utility, I see conflicting signals about American opinion on this subject, especially at the college level.  Again, and again, I see college students being told to follow their dream, and major in what they love, regardless of job potential.  This, I think, is naive.  That's not to say that they should major in something they hate, just because there's a good job market for it.  But, if a person is an above-average flute player and also an above-average computer programmer, one should be realistic in the number of career placements for flute players in the entire country.

 

For me, K-12 is the time to teach many varied disciplines, regardless of future immediate utility:  foreign languages, literature, history, arts, etc.  I hope that this knowledge and love of this kind of learning will serve them for life.  But, college is the time to narrow down and make difficult choices.

[Mom2OandE]

I'm finding this thread interesting.

 

I will say it is very important to me that my children are internationally minded and foreign language is important to me. With that said I studied French for 7 years and Spanish for four. I used them in a job for three years. I can only recall a few simple phrases 15 years later. Not using those languages meant I lost them. I do believe they are tucked safely in my brain as I occasionally dream in French.

[Arcadia]

In relation to the foreign languages aspect....how many job offers in the US are asking for a person to speak a second language fluently, let alone a third one?

.....

So that goes back to need, interest, and utility....If it won't change your pay one iota, if you don't have the funds to travel in foreign lands where you would need to speak a foreign language, how could people really value a second, let alone a third language?

...

We were studying Chinese for awhile thinking we might move to China. It ended up probably being a wasted year + because it detracted from German which is what the kids really need now.

 

Regarding job offers, I see a need for 2nd or 3rd language mainly in healthcare. Usually a big clinic or a hospital will have Spanish speaking nurses.

My hubby's job in semiconductor does require being able to read and speak Chinese to the supply chain.

As for learning a 2nd or 3rd language, it does boil down to time. My kids now have the time for both Chinese and German so neither languages is taking time away from the other. When there is a time crunch we would then evaluate.

[Joan in GE]

My brain was thinking about this while I was sleeping as I woke thinking about science in US high schools.
 

Admittedly - big caveat - my experience/exposure is very small from living over here in relation to understanding what's happening in the US school system. PLUS - the US is so large and districts can have such different funding and focus, that any generalization will have lots of exceptions....
 

But here goes.....
 

It's interesting reading all the answers about benefits of foreign languages and this thread could turn in many directions....
 

Questions:

what percent of students in each European country are actually getting this 'well-rounded' education? Eg in Switzerland, generally the end of obligatory schooling is age 15 (though now changing). So the 'well-rounded education" for apprentices and other studies is not the same as someone preparing for university where they are supposed to arrive with their liberal arts foundation )ie the well rounded eduation) and then specialize in university...I don't know how this differes in other European countries, except for France where students are obliged to study til 18...but then I don't really know their system that well...

 

Are languages emphasized to the detriment of life experience, and science or other studies (in Europe)?

 

I love learning languages - and have dabbled in quite a few - Arabic, Spanish, Chinese, German, (besides French of course) and when we travel I'll try to learn a few words from other languages as well....so this doesn't come out of lack of interest....
 

Regentrude - the idea of a well rounded education appeals to me but we all only have 24 hours in a day....which means that if students are studying languages, then they aren't studying or doing something else....
 

I have to admit a certain disappointment when comparing what was done in high school science and technology school contests here compared to what my brother tells me he does with his high school physics classes in the US (admittedly a very small sample)....eg...in high school, they are doing the same type of contests that students are doing here in 'college'...building bridges out of cardboard, catapults, mousetrap cars, etc....It seems that while they might get a little of each branch every year, they are not doing the hands on experimentation/demonstration type of exposure as done in the US (another caveat - one board member said that many high schools don't have the money for lab any more - I don't know how pervasive this situation is though).
 

Anyway, my point is that maybe they are learning a lot of theory here, but what about 'real life' practice...
 

When it comes to new products and experimentation - is it a misimpression that there are more 'originating in the US'? Even if there are, there could be other tax structure, business models, etc which would influence these things....I guess though I just don't see kids doing all kinds of experimentation around here....But again, maybe my exposure is too limited? Still, with the home education option in the US, it does make possible that young people who are really energized by some ideas, can actually focus on product development, etc...
 

This is all 'discussion' - trying to make sense of different variables that don't always seem to be taken into account (but I've had huge absences from the board and don't even tend to read the General board so maybe this has already been discussed on other threads?)
 

Another aspect for which I'm going to start a new thread on the high school board concerns the differences in attitudes/habits of part time work in high school, volunteer work in high school, owning cars and driving them in Europe as a teenager (younger than 18 I mean)....on this thread "Most teens"* here* do not work*

 

[Joan in GE]

 

 

For the time frame I was referring to, English was no international language, and the US was not yet a major force in the world.

 

To which time frame where you referring?

 

[regentrude]

To which time frame where you referring?

 

When the first English speaking immigrants moved into areas formerly settled by native Americans or Spanish speaking immigrants. 17th/18th century. I find it remarkable what hatred sometimes is shown toward speakers of Spanish - even though many families have lived in their areas for generations before English speaking people came.

 

[regentrude]

Questions:

what percent of students in each European country are actually getting this 'well-rounded' education? Eg in Switzerland, generally the end of obligatory schooling is age 15 (though now changing). So the 'well-rounded education" for apprentices and other studies is not the same as someone preparing for university where they are supposed to arrive with their liberal arts foundation )ie the well rounded eduation) and then specialize in university...I don't know how this differes in other European countries, except for France where students are obliged to study til 18...but then I don't really know their system that well...

 

 

In Germany, 50% of students attend gymnasium, the college pre high school. Now, I am sure not all of them really take full advantage of the language instruction offered and put the full effort in to achieve fluency - but they are at least required to study two languages for 10 and 7 years, respectively, and have the additional option of a third language, and they are taught by teachers who speak the language. So, at least they are offered this education.

The other 50% of student who ar attending the other track of high school have to study one foreign language from grade 3 through 10.

 

 

 

Are languages emphasized to the detriment of life experience, and science or other studies (in Europe)?

Regentrude - the idea of a well rounded education appeals to me but we all only have 24 hours in a day....which means that if students are studying languages, then they aren't studying or doing something else...

 

 

That is absolutely true. Unfortunately, I have not been able to discern what area of education would be better in the US public schools than the education I received back home. It is not languages, it is not math, and it surely is not science.

I notice that a lot more time is spent on writing here, but from what my English department colleagues tell me, this does not seem to translate into tangible abilities for a large portion of incoming freshmen.

 

 

I have to admit a certain disappointment when comparing what was done in high school science and technology school contests here compared to what my brother tells me he does with his high school physics classes in the US (admittedly a very small sample)....eg...in high school, they are doing the same type of contests that students are doing here in 'college'...building bridges out of cardboard, catapults, mousetrap cars, etc....It seems that while they might get a little of each branch every year, they are not doing the hands on experimentation/demonstration type of exposure as done in the US (another caveat - one board member said that many high schools don't have the money for lab any more - I don't know how pervasive this situation is though).

 

Cough. Since you are using physics as an example : 30% of my college students majoring in chemistry, math, comp sci and engineering never had any kind of physics in high school.  Almost none of my biology students had physics in high school. And these are the STEM minded kids.

 

I would like to add that every single new faculty we have hired in the last 15 years in our department has been a foreign national. Even the short lists of the best qualified 5-6 candidates in every search almost never included Americans. A typical pattern is that those people received their high school and undergrad education in another country and their PhD from a US university.

 

 

When it comes to new products and experimentation - is it a misimpression that there are more 'originating in the US'? Even if there are, there could be other tax structure, business models, etc which would influence these things....I guess though I just don't see kids doing all kinds of experimentation around here....

 

I do not think it has anything to do with exposure to experimentation in a few selected schools, but with other cultural factors.

ETA:

expanding on this  a bit....

one crucial difference that will contribute here is the German deeply ingrained culture of training for every job except for the most menial tasks.. On one hand, this creates a very well trained work force, on the other, it limits flexibility. The idea of training on the job, of going and working and trying out things, of switching careers, of starting out as a teen without firm plans are unusual. Consequently, there will be far fewer young people who are encouraged to tinker in their garages - they are expected to study or do apprenticeship to be trained for a certain path. The entire society is much more rigid in its structures.

 

 

[Laura Corin]

 

 

Questions:

what percent of students in each European country are actually getting this 'well-rounded' education? Eg in Switzerland, generally the end of obligatory schooling is age 15 (though now changing). So the 'well-rounded education" for apprentices and other studies is not the same as someone preparing for university where they are supposed to arrive with their liberal arts foundation )ie the well rounded eduation) and then specialize in university...I don't know how this differes in other European countries, except for France where students are obliged to study til 18...but then I don't really know their system that well...

 

Are languages emphasized to the detriment of life experience, and science or other studies (in Europe)?

 

 

 

About 40% of young people in the UK go to university.  They will (usually) have studied at least one foreign language at least from age 11 to 14, most from 11 to 16, and a good number from 11 to 18.  UK language teaching is not brilliant, however, so I don't think that it is a particular model to follow.

 

Of the other 60%, all will have studied a foreign language from 11 to 14, and some will have continued on with it, going to non-university further education/apprenticeship at age 16 or 18.  Others will leave school at 16 (that is moving slowly up to 18) and try to get work.

 

A standard university-track spread of subjects from age 14 to 16 for a university-bound pupil would be English Language, English Literature, physics, chemistry, biology, history or geography, one or more foreign languages, maths, maybe an arts subject (music, drama, etc.).  These are the exam subjects  - in addition, there would usually be personal and social education, comparative religion and PE.  The GCSE exams taken at age 16 are roughly the level of SAT subjects tests, but most are essay based.  From age 16 to 18, the curriculum becomes more specialised.

 

We have a 39 week school year, so there's a bit more leeway in there.

 

ETA: Primary/Elementary schools now teach foreign languages in the UK too, but I don't think they are well taught.  A friend of mine who teaches French at senior school wishes they didn't: it ends up with lots of duplication and turns the children off.  So not a properly integrated system.

 

L

[elegantlion]

 

 

For people sitting in the US - how do you know what language you will really need in the future? I think it's also the case of 'too many options' and none seeming that obvious...The Spanish speakers are in the US so theoretically should also be learning English. And while the language would be helpful to work in social services or health care services, it is not a business language unless you're working in seriously Spanish speaking communities or in Mexico or further south (this is of course a broad generalization made from afar). I think it would be good to learn Spanish personally, but can just understand why people might not make it as high a priority as Europeans tend to make learning other languages...

 

Real fluency takes years to develop....I look at nieces and nephews who aren't fluent in a foreign language and wonder how being fluent would really change their job options and if there aren't skills/knowledge they need more.....and am better understanding school district choices....

 

 

 

Joan

 

 

 

My son has an interest in learning multiple languages. We're finishing up our second year of Japanese and adding Russian next year. He wants to take German in college and has recently added Swedish to the list. 

 

He understands that even with 4 years of Japanese (we're unable to outsource or hire a tutor because of budget) that he will not be fluent. Russian will be more exposure if he takes 2 years. In our case, I was/am willing to learn any language he wants alongside him. 

 

His choices were dictated by where he might wish to study or live in the future. He also may work in an industry with an international presence and those languages would be relevant - maybe not Swedish. If he had his choice, he'd add more languages and skip a few required academic subjects. 

[duckens]

Another resource for foreign language fluency:

My Language Exchange

This is a website that matches individuals of varying languages with one another for conversational practice.  It touts itself as "free" but you really need a "gold membership" to properly contact people. 

Cost:

$6 for 1 month

$12 for 3 months

$24 for 12 months

It is NOT a dating website, but it is set up in that same manner in which you

 

--input what you are looking for (someone who speaks Croatian, but wants to practice English)

 

--review profiles
"Hello! My name is Tomislav, I come from Croatia. I would like to improve my language skills in English, French, German. I offer my help to those who are interested in learning Croatian, to study it."

 

--contact people with a "hi" (free) or with an email (gold membership)

Disclaimer #1: This is not a language learning curriculum.  This is a supplement.
Disclaimer #2: Do not leave unattended children (under age 19) in the presence of a stranger online.
-----------------------------------------------------

What you need:

Skype

Gold membership

Time flexibility that is compatible with time zones around the world.
--------------------------------------------------------

My experience:
--You can explore the site for free, but you really need a Gold membership to participate.
 

--I have found two students from China (one is at a university in Sidney, Australia, the other in Shanghai) to practice my Chinese with.  Usually one or the other is available.  In return, I am better able to practice with dd7.

 

--Since they are on the opposite side of the world from me, I wake early (I have chronic insomnia), and we practice before the rest of my household awakens.  My morning is their evening.  Yeah.  11 hours apart.

 

--We don't visit every day, and we don't make plans from one day to the next.  If I sleep in or they are busy, we just try again the next day.  I greet them on Skype with, "Are you available?"  If not, then it's not a big deal. 

 

--We don't follow a set curriculum.  Today's English conversation was about mutts and Heinz 57.  The last conversation was the difference between NASA and the NSA. :laugh:  Before that, we spoke about geodes.  Their English is good enough that they are ready for these cultural details.

 

--Because we don't follow a set curriculum, *I* am responsible for the Chinese side.  I use this as a SUPPLEMENT to what I am learning in Chinese class, Rosetta stone, and random youtube videos.  Often, I just read Chinese sentences to my partner, and he corrects my pronunciation (which is what I need the most).  Sometimes I add Chinese words or phrases to my part of the conversation, and I receive help with grammar or vocabulary.

--I have had good luck that the two gentlemen I work with have MUCH better English skills than I have Chinese skills.  Communication hasn't been a problem for us.

--As English speakers, we are in demand (at least in China). 

All of the students in China who want come to study in American universities need English fluency. I have a local professor friend in the Chemistry department who telephones China at 3am once a week to screen potential Chinese grad students.  These conversations are less about their Chemistry knowledge, and more about their general English proficiency because they will be leading undergrad Chem labs.

English proficiency is also in demand in Chinese companies, and their job market is very competitive at this time.  So many of their employees are "temp workers" and competing with their co-workers for a limited number of stable positions.  For this reason, this generation in China is called the "Ant Tribe" because the young college grads go from one job to the next, looking for permanence.  English competence is a boon for those who can prove it.

[Joan in GE]

 what hatred sometimes is shown toward speakers of Spanish - even though many families have lived in their areas for generations before English speaking people came.

 

 

My experience is very limited but there was a small Spanish speaking community in the local small city near us where I never noticed that even though my dad lived right in the area so I'd buy food in one of their shops - I don't know if they were there for generations though...

 

How is the hatred that you've seen manifested? (it seems like such a strong word) And you haven't seen it manifested towards any other 'other' language speaking community?

 

My dad was an immigrant and his father forbade the speaking of his native tongue in the home....they were so proud to be Americans that they wanted to leave their language behind...but I think that's after the period about which you are speaking as well....

 

 

I think the language of use partly depends about what is being written...probably there was more 'written' in English at the time than in Spanish (in North America I mean) but I'm guessing......certainly more than was being written in the various native American tongues....

 

 

 

[Dmmetler]

What I found in Mexico and Puerto Rico was that when I tried to speak Spanish, everyone shifted to English. In Canada, the same thing happened when I tried to use French. It was helpful as far as reading and navigating, but rather hard to use conversationally. Admittedly, though, I have fairly severe speech/language impediments in English, so maybe the native speakers were just taking pity on me, since I haven't had 12+ years of targeted speech therapy in Spanish or French?

 

When DD was a toddler/preschooler, I thought I had the whole Spanish thing down-she'd go to the playground and play with other kids in Spanish. Until they all got to be school aged, and all of a sudden Spanish-speaking kids would try to talk to DD in English, and DD would try to talk to the in Spanish. We once spent 2 hours in an airport lounge with a family from the Dominican Republic, and I don't think either child used a word of their first language-which led to a very stilted conversation, focused mostly on names of animals and colors of crayons.

 

Now, at 9, she's too easily embarrassed and doesn't want to make mistakes-and insists that her Spanish isn't good enough to speak it. She tends to be more inventive and willing to try to communicate in Latin.

[Joan in GE]

 

 

Cough. Since you are using physics as an example : 30% of my college students majoring in chemistry, math, comp sci and engineering never had any kind of physics in high school.  Almost none of my biology students had physics in high school. And these are the STEM minded kids.

 

I would like to add that every single new faculty we have hired in the last 15 years in our department has been a foreign national. Even the short lists of the best qualified 5-6 candidates in every search almost never included Americans. A typical pattern is that those people received their high school and undergrad education in another country and their PhD from a US university.

 

 

I do not think it has anything to do with exposure to experimentation in a few selected schools, but with other cultural factors.

ETA:

expanding on this  a bit....

one crucial difference that will contribute here is the German deeply ingrained culture of training for every job except for the most menial tasks.. On one hand, this creates a very well trained work force, on the other, it limits flexibility. The idea of training on the job, of going and working and trying out things, of switching careers, of starting out as a teen without firm plans are unusual. Consequently, there will be far fewer young people who are encouraged to tinker in their garages - they are expected to study or do apprenticeship to be trained for a certain path. The entire society is much more rigid in its structures.

 

Interesting about the new faculty...

 

The culture of job training is in CH as well...I don't think they have this in France - at least people have told me how poorly trained the labor force there is....

 

So what foreign language do the non uni track students tend to choose?

 

[Joan in GE]

 

If all of the best movies came out in French, and all of the good TV was in French, and the bulk of the science and academic writing was in French, people would know a lot more French. As it is, you mainly use it for not having to turn your cereal box around to know what the ingredients are.

 

Just yesterday at the doctor's office, I was noticing the books on his shelf...mostly in English....When you look at the French speaking populations, many are in countries where there aren't many medical textbooks published...

 

[Arcadia]

but we all only have 24 hours in a day....which means that if students are studying languages, then they aren't studying or doing something else...

How I make time is instead of watching cartoons in english, we watch in german or chinese. Kids pick up the informal grammar intuitively.

My elementary school did social studies in chinese or whatever the child's native language. Again not direct language instruction but it works.

History is another subject that can be taught/discuss in a 2nd language instead of in english.

 

I don't know for German but for Chinese if a child has mastered the first 1000 words, it is basic. By the time a child reach a 5000 word vocabulary for chinese as a 2nd language, the child can comfortably use it for work (just need to learn whatever niche technical terms on the job).

 

ETA:

Also watching news and reading the newspaper in another language again does not take time away from other subjects.

[regentrude]

 

How is the hatred that you've seen manifested? (it seems like such a strong word) And you haven't seen it manifested towards any other 'other' language speaking community?

 

No, it is specifically directed towards speakers of Spanish.

When immigrant friends from Spanish speaking countries talk to their children in their native language in public, strangers admonish them that they should be speaking English to their kids, tell them to go back home where they came from, curse them for taking Americans' jobs. The reaction is definitely hostile.

 

When I talk to my children in our native German in public, strangers commend me for raising my kids in two languages, tell me how cool it its, welcome me to the US. My experience is shared by other international friends, for example from France. The reaction is always friendly; I have never been accused of taking an American's job, or told to go back home.

[regentrude]

So what foreign language do the non uni track students tend to choose?

 

 

English.

 

Typically, elementary schools offer only one first foreign language: English, or French in areas close to the French border.

Only for the 2nd foreign language, students have the choice of 2-3 that are offered by their schools.

 

[Artichoke]

Another resource for foreign language fluency:

 

My Language Exchange

 

This is a website that matches individuals of varying languages with one another for conversational practice. It touts itself as "free" but you really need a "gold membership" to properly contact people.

 

 

Thank you so much for passing this on! Dd is trying to learn Icelandic and the resources are few and far between.

[Ohdanigirl]

No, it is specifically directed towards speakers of Spanish.

When immigrant friends from Spanish speaking countries talk to their children in their native language in public, strangers admonish them that they should be speaking English to their kids, tell them to go back home where they came from, curse them for taking Americans' jobs. The reaction is definitely hostile.

 

When I talk to my children in our native German in public, strangers commend me for raising my kids in two languages, tell me how cool it its, welcome me to the US. My experience is shared by other international friends, for example from France. The reaction is always friendly; I have never been accused of taking an American's job, or told to go back home.

I have to admit that we have experienced this since coming back to the states. I speak to my youngest (4) in Spanish only, because I teach my DC English the summer before kindergarten. I have had people make snide comments while in line at the register. Imagine their surprise when I turn around and coldly clarify for them that I am an American and speak English just fine thank you very much. Once or twice a person has responded that I should still teach my DC English, because their tax dollars shouldn't have to do it when my DC enter school. To which I reply that I agree and homeschool/have my kids reading both languages by the end if k, all without $0.01 of their tax dollars. That usually does the trick.

 

I have also been told I should teach my children Spanish, when speaking to my older dc in English. In this situation, it has always been a Hispanic person a little older in age. I always tell them that my children are in fact bilingual. In this situation the people aren't usually making a mean comment, just being nosey. I did have a women make a rude comment once. Something along the lines of, oh she thinks she's to good to speak Spanish. I think in that case I answered her in Spanish with a likely smart aleck comment.

 

I try not to escalate the situation, but I hold my ground. I have to say, it is worse than it was when my oldest was little and we lived in the States. I recall people commenting on how great it was that I taught my kids Spanish (non-Spanish speakers), or that they spoke English so well (in the case of Hispanic strangers). I have really been forced to keep my cool and give people some grace.

[Matryoshka]

Thank you so much for passing this on! Dd is trying to learn Icelandic and the resources are few and far between.

 

My dd found a great little Icelandic course online and worked through it - icelandiconline.is

[Sahamamama]

Seems so and I agree.  And what is crazy is a lot of people seem to think it's not doable (to teach children 2 languages). 

 

We've encountered this mindset (we're in the US), even among other homeschoolers. When people learn that we are working steadily on both Latin and French, along with the usual work in English, the typical response is, "What? Latin and French... and English? How will all that fit into their heads?"

 

I plug my ears and remember what my international friends have told me was the language-learning method of choice in their native countries: Start young and keep at it. For example, they said, English starts around age 7 (2nd grade) and continues throughout. Another language might be added at age 10 (5th grade) and would continue throughout, and still there would be time for a third foreign language at the high school level (4 or more years of study). This held true from Sweden to Germany to India to Japan to Honduras to Burkina Faso (except there, the first foreign language studied was French).

 

They could not fathom a 2-year language requirement (only for the college bound!), nor how anyone could graduate from high school without any foreign language requirement. :huh: They could not fathom how one can earn an undergraduate or even a graduate degree with no foreign language requirements. In the US, you certainly can. We (usually) don't need another language besides English to get where we're headed, so the mindset is, "Why bother?"

 

 

[Joan in GE]

Another resource for foreign language fluency:

 

My Language Exchange

 

This is a website that matches individuals of varying languages with one another for conversational practice.  It touts itself as "free" but you really need a "gold membership" to properly contact people. 

 

Sounds like this could be quite useful for older students and adult learners who have enough time

 

No, it is specifically directed towards speakers of Spanish.

When immigrant friends from Spanish speaking countries talk to their children in their native language in public, strangers admonish them that they should be speaking English to their kids, tell them to go back home where they came from, curse them for taking Americans' jobs. The reaction is definitely hostile.

 

When I talk to my children in our native German in public, strangers commend me for raising my kids in two languages, tell me how cool it its, welcome me to the US. My experience is shared by other international friends, for example from France. The reaction is always friendly; I have never been accused of taking an American's job, or told to go back home.

Regentrude – I can see your experience better…but are these the same people saying this to other language speakers?

 

I could imagine myself congratulating someone about dual language use, but not haranguing someone in the style you describe. On the one hand is a person who values bilingualism and on the other hand, the rudeness seems to come from someone who is fearing for their job, concerned about tax use, etc – ie out of fear…

 

I have to admit that we have experienced this since coming back to the states. I speak to my youngest (4) in Spanish only, because I teach my DC English the summer before kindergarten. I have had people make snide comments while in line at the register. Imagine their surprise when I turn around and coldly clarify for them that I am an American and speak English just fine thank you very much. Once or twice a person has responded that I should still teach my DC English, because their tax dollars shouldn't have to do it when my DC enter school. To which I reply that I agree and homeschool/have my kids reading both languages by the end if k, all without $0.01 of their tax dollars. That usually does the trick.

 

I have also been told I should teach my children Spanish, when speaking to my older dc in English. In this situation, it has always been a Hispanic person a little older in age. I always tell them that my children are in fact bilingual. In this situation the people aren't usually making a mean comment, just being nosey. I did have a women make a rude comment once. Something along the lines of, oh she thinks she's to good to speak Spanish. I think in that case I answered her in Spanish with a likely smart aleck comment.

 

I try not to escalate the situation, but I hold my ground. I have to say, it is worse than it was when my oldest was little and we lived in the States. I recall people commenting on how great it was that I taught my kids Spanish (non-Spanish speakers), or that they spoke English so well (in the case of Hispanic strangers). I have really been forced to keep my cool and give people some grace.

 

What exercises you have in being polite!! 

 

And getting attacked from two sides as well! It’s hard reading how rude people can be in the US…Does it ever make you want to move? It sounds like things have changed a lot since the last US stay...was it in the same region?

[regentrude]

Regentrude – I can see your experience better…but are these the same people saying this to other language speakers?

 

I could imagine myself congratulating someone about dual language use, but not haranguing someone in the style you describe. On the one hand is a person who values bilingualism and on the other hand, the rudeness seems to come from someone who is fearing for their job, concerned about tax use, etc – ie out of fear…

 

No, of course not the same people - but statistically, the Spanish speakers should also encounter people who value bilingualism, and I should also encounter people who are afraid German immigrants are taking their jobs.

The real irony is that in our area there are almost no Hispanic immigrants (1.2% in the county are of hispanic origin), certainly no area of employment where they could be taking jobs in the large scale, and the hostile people are not really fearing for their jobs or see their taxes go up. Our county is almost exclusively white (93%)

[Ohdanigirl]

What exercises you have in being polite!!

 

And getting attacked from two sides as well! It’s hard reading how rude people can be in the US…Does it ever make you want to move? It sounds like things have changed a lot since the last US stay...was it in the same region?

LOL. Well, maybe it is good lesson to lear and practice. As I have grown older, I have learned much needed patience and understanding. It is something I will admit I greatly lacked in my teens and twenties. Sometimes I am not as patient as I should be, but flying off the handle will likely just put people on the defensive and dig their heels in.

 

We are in San Diego, same as before. For the most part, people in Ca. are very laid back and welcoming. Within the home schooling community, people have been nothing but wonderful. The good far outweighs any bad.

 

I have an itch to move, but not because of this. I love my country and really miss it when we are away, but I long to see other countries. Dh was offered work in Canada, and I would have been thrilled.

[Nan in Mass]

I tried to give my children at least one second language.  I aimed for bilingual and failed mmiisseerraabbllyy, but you know what?  You can fail miserably but still reach the point where the child is able to read comfortably at about the young adult level and have a real conversation, which is a good bit better than where most students in the US land.  It was hard and it took a summer in a foreign country to make it work.  I wish I had known at the beginning what I know now about learning language.  My best advice for those who want children really to be able to use a second language is either to give them some prep and then send them off as an exchange student for a year, or to start doing Saterday school  young and then keep doing it forever.  Both of those options require major sacrifices but really work.  Anything else is might or might not work.

 

I have, with lots of help from Ester Maria, Regentrude, Joan, and others, noticed some rather major differences in the way I was taught French in school and the way foreign languages are taught in Europe.  In the US, for years you memorize vocabulary associated with a little reading passage written specifically to teach those vocabulary words, do a grammar excersize, and if you are lucky, write a brief paragraph related to the current topic and do a brief oral excersize to practise the new grammar.  You don't really use the language that much, despite putting in the time.  You are seldom asked to do anything that you haven't specifically been taught.  After years of doing this in high school, you might begin to read original literature.  In Europe, you are made to use the language in a real way much sooner.  There are far more oral excersizes.  You read original literature and give oral presentations on what you read much sooner.  You do excersizes and memorize vocabulary and grammar but you are far less likely to forget what you've done because you are required to use it to read, write, and speak constantly.  Some of it looks a lot like TWTM lol - dictation, grammar, reading, and narration.  You read literature paragraph by paragraph, summarizing each paragraph.  You aren't protected from unfamiliar words or grammar.  Instead, you are required to use the dictionary and figure it out.  You are required to produce the language fast enough that it forces you to think in the language and not translate back and forth in your head.  As soon as possible, you switch to using a dictionary where the definitions are in the new language, rather than a translation dictionary.  This approach, combined with more passive exposure, seems to work.  Sometimes one subject is taught in the new language.  I think one of the biggest hurdles in learning a new language to the point of functionality is aquiring enough vocabulary.  It is really hard to aquire enough and keep it aquired (in other words, not forget it as fast as you learn it) just by memorizing lists and doing excersizes.  On the other hand, it is quite easy to learn new vocabulary, solidify grammar, and be reminded of old vocabulary simply by reading, provided you pay attention to new words and how things are being said, rather than settling for just getting the general gist.  I think it is also necessary to convince your brain that it really does need to remember the new language, and the fastest way to do that is to speak and write in the new language.  I think the Europeans are better at seeing the cultural differences in the way language is used, as well, and teaching those.  It helps that they aren't handicapped by having to teach everything in a fun way, the way US schools are, and aren't afraid of memorization and drill.

 

We used a textbook from France for history/geography.  At first, I was able to discuss it in French.  After awhile, the level got high enough that it was beyond my French, but since the level went up gradually, we had no trouble adjusting to reading at the higher level.  Some of our literature for Great Books was in French.  By folding French into our normal subjects, we were able to find time for it.  When the children were small, I read picture books in French and we talked about them.  This worked surprisingly well when combined with some conversation and French cartoons or movies.  As an adult, I have found that if I pick something I want to learn and try to learn it from materials written in the new language, I learn much faster than if I just try to learn the language by itself.  It is almost as though the part of my brain that is wired to learn languages quickly via immersion only works in the background, when I am not specifically trying to use it.

 

I use Pimsleur tapes for getting started with speaking.  They drill-and-kill some basic grammar structures and vocabulary enough so that I can use them fast enough to be actually useful in real situations.  I can use the structures to plug in the specific vocabulary I need for situations.  LOL - I learned to order beer in three languages thanks to Pimsleur, but since I would rather drink tea, I just look up tea in the dictionary and substitute it for the word beer.

 

Nan

[Penguin]

Denmark's university education seems to be very project oriented with an emphasis on group work. I have discussed education with numerous non-Danish, EU citizen, graduate students who are studying here. Almost all of them comment on the fact that the undergraduate education in the home country was more theoretical than the graduate studies in Denmark. To be expected, some like it better and some do not.

From what I have been told, undergrad studies are  heavily project-based.

[Library Momma]

I just wanted to add my observations in response to career opportunities.  I have been working for the same large corporation for 21 years.  when I started we had a large international sales department comprised of employees fluent in a variety of languages.  About ten years ago that started to disappear, and now that department has been completely replaced by native speakers living in their own countries that telecommute.

 

That being said I have always loved languages.  I grew up learning Hebrew once a week in Hebrew School starting in 2nd grade.  I then started Spanish in 7th (through High School) and Latin in 9th.  I also picked up a smattering of "choice" words in Yiddish from my grandparents.  They did not speak Yiddish but learned the same "choice" words from their parents.  I also learned quite a bit of inappropriate Hungarian from my friend in High School.  Her parents were immigrants and their English was poor.  My daughter started Spanish this year in 6th grade at ps and loves it!

[Sahamamama]

I have, with lots of help from Ester Maria, Regentrude, Joan, and others, noticed some rather major differences in the way I was taught French in school and the way foreign languages are taught in Europe.  In the US, for years you memorize vocabulary associated with a little reading passage written specifically to teach those vocabulary words, do a grammar exercise, and if you are lucky, write a brief paragraph related to the current topic and do a brief oral exercise to practice the new grammar.  You don't really use the language that much, despite putting in the time.  You are seldom asked to do anything that you haven't specifically been taught.  After years of doing this in high school, you might begin to read original literature. 

 

I couldn't have said it better! Yes, this is exactly how I was taught French from 7th through 12th grades in public school in the US. We started off with dialogues, which we listened to on little records (remember records?). The idea was to memorize the entire dialogue. Looking back, I think the main reason schools in the US are/were forced to utilize this canned approach was/is because of the lack of truly bilingual teachers. Any teacher could plug in the record player, and have the students parrot back EXACTLY that dialogue. Why didn't they allow or require us to "go off script?" I think it was because they themselves were too uncertain of the target language to really engage us in authentic, original, unscripted dialogue!

 

Same goes for written assignments. If we only had to fill in the blanks or fill in a grammar chart or match the French word to its English equivalent, that was easy for the teacher to manage. What would a non-native teacher do with 25 original compositions, times 5 or 6 classes per day? I think the fluency and confidence and teaching ability simply were not there.

 

It's sort of how, in many of my math classes, the teachers stuck to the textbook, to the procedure, to the script. There were NOT multiple explanations or alternate ways of doing things, because that kind of flexibility requires mastery on the part of the teacher, and the mastery simply was not there.

 

In Europe, you are made to use the language in a real way much sooner.  There are far more oral exercises.  You read original literature and give oral presentations on what you read much sooner.  You do exercises and memorize vocabulary and grammar but you are far less likely to forget what you've done because you are required to use it to read, write, and speak constantly.  

 

This sounds (and is) wonderful. It requires a confident, bilingual teacher, I think, one who can engage with the language flexibly (off-script). Reading and discussing original literature (even something as simple as Babar), engaging in authentic or even re-enacted conversations (without written scripts! without making the speaker feel like an idiot!), listening to (and gently correcting) oral presentations, and assessing/correcting written work (all those accents, the spelling, irregular verbs, les idiomes!) -- all this would require, if not a native speaker, at least a teacher with PROFOUND fluency in the language, including how to teach all that gently and with encouragement.

 

I don't know, but I have a feeling, that in Europe and other parts of the world, there are more of these types of foreign language teachers than there are in the US. Again, I really don't know, but from what I've gathered from international friends, their foreign language teachers were actually able to have -- and gently teach students to engage in -- authentic, unscripted conversations. It seems that outside of the US, since there is such a desire to master at least one "other" language, there is broader cultural, familial, and educational support for the endeavor. And part of that support is better teachers, teachers who are truly able to teach (not simply move through lessons in) the target language(s). How else could this be accomplished? I would really like to know, since this is how I what I'd like for my children. But of course, I'm not bilingual! How?

 

One other thought about the cultural and familial support: In the US, how many students "take" a foreign language at school, but have no interaction with it at home, other than the homework? That is to say, there is no family commitment to learning, say, Mandarin. It's just a class at school. Along those same lines, if the American student has trouble understanding an assignment, or needs help with learning vocabulary, who at home can help with this? Many parents perhaps never "took" Spanish or French -- or any other language. I wonder if students outside the US get better home support for learning languages, either through parental help at home, tutors, Saturday classes, or by having more materials and interactions available? I really don't know how this works.

 

Along those lines, what does the larger culture say to those learning another language? For language learners in the US, I think the usual reaction is either "Wow, that's brave" or "Why?" In other words, we seem to either fear or disdain the learning of a foreign language. Overseas, the prevailing mindset seems to be, "This is normal. This is what we all do." When I was in Malawi, everyone was learning English. Little kids out in the bush, with no books in sight, no Internet, no electricity, no running water -- somehow, still learning whatever English came their way. No one told them it was pointless, or asked "Why would you do that?" It was amazing.

 

Sometimes one subject is taught in the new language. 

 

Only ESL and private school kids get this here.

 

We used a textbook from France for history/geography.  At first, I was able to discuss it in French.  After awhile, the level got high enough that it was beyond my French, but since the level went up gradually, we had no trouble adjusting to reading at the higher level.  Some of our literature for Great Books was in French.  By folding French into our normal subjects, we were able to find time for it.  When the children were small, I read picture books in French and we talked about them.  This worked surprisingly well when combined with some conversation and French cartoons or movies.  As an adult, I have found that if I pick something I want to learn and try to learn it from materials written in the new language, I learn much faster than if I just try to learn the language by itself.  It is almost as though the part of my brain that is wired to learn languages quickly via immersion only works in the background, when I am not specifically trying to use it.

 

I use Pimsleur tapes for getting started with speaking.  They drill-and-kill some basic grammar structures and vocabulary enough so that I can use them fast enough to be actually useful in real situations.  I can use the structures to plug in the specific vocabulary I need for situations.  LOL - I learned to order beer in three languages thanks to Pimsleur, but since I would rather drink tea, I just look up tea in the dictionary and substitute it for the word beer.

 

Nan

 

Nan, I love your ideas for teaching French. Thanks for posting these, I'm going to copy them into my notes. :)

 

[Arcadia]

This sounds (and is) wonderful. It requires a confident, bilingual teacher, I think, one who can engage with the language flexibly (off-script). Reading and discussing original literature (even something as simple as Babar), engaging in authentic or even re-enacted conversations (without written scripts! without making the speaker feel like an idiot!), listening to (and gently correcting) oral presentations, and assessing/correcting written work (all those accents, the spelling, irregular verbs, les idiomes!) -- all this would require, if not a native speaker, at least a teacher with PROFOUND fluency in the language, including how to teach all that gently and with encouragement.

.....

if the American student has trouble understanding an assignment, or needs help with learning vocabulary, who at home can help with this? Many parents perhaps never "took" Spanish or French -- or any other language. I wonder if students outside the US get better home support for learning languages, either through parental help at home, tutors, Saturday classes, or by having more materials and interactions available? I really don't know how this works.

 

 

You don't need a bilingual teacher to teach foreign language.  A native monolingual teacher would be just as proficient.  For my kids Saturday German school, the preschool classes are taught in German with no English spoken. Chinese is my other first language and from three years old, Chinese classes are done entirely in Chinese.  

 

There are plenty of private tutors in my area who tutor high school Spanish, French or any other language because there is a requirement of two years of foreign language here for high school.  There are also quite a few dual immersion elementary schools here and private tutors are easy to find.

[Nan in Mass]

Nan, I love your ideas for teaching French. Thanks for posting these, I'm going to copy them into my notes. :)

 

Don,t forget to get picture books to read. : ) When I began to read picture books aloud, I realized that it was an easy and pleasant way to give my children better French input than my own weak language skills and that is why there is such a big push to get parents reading to their young children. It was fairly simple to ask rudimentary questions like What is that? or Where is the dog? Child could give a one word answer or point and say "There" in French. I did a bit of sketchy translating at first but then began just pointing out any crucial new words. Mostly I let them figure it out for themselves by context or the pictures.

 

Nan

[sagira]

No, it is specifically directed towards speakers of Spanish.

When immigrant friends from Spanish speaking countries talk to their children in their native language in public, strangers admonish them that they should be speaking English to their kids, tell them to go back home where they came from, curse them for taking Americans' jobs. The reaction is definitely hostile.

 

When I talk to my children in our native German in public, strangers commend me for raising my kids in two languages, tell me how cool it its, welcome me to the US. My experience is shared by other international friends, for example from France. The reaction is always friendly; I have never been accused of taking an American's job, or told to go back home.

That's just awful. And rude :(

 

I am teaching my kids Spanish, and we live close to an area with a lot of Spanish speakers. People in our area are generally supportive and encourage learning two languages, and Spanish speakers think it's awesome. I speak Spanish. Learned starting in 5th grade, and TV was all in Spanish. Ds10 is finishing fifth now and we are both starting Latin in the fall. I'm also learning Italian as an aside.

 

Thanks so much for this thread. I needed the kick in the pants.

[hepatica]

One of my brothers did a technical - vocational track in the Netherlands and the only foreign language he learned was German.

That branch of technic was completely focused on Germany.

My nephew learns English and German.

English is required in ALL  tracks; in the Netherlands, a second foreign language is recommanded but elective in the non-uni tracks.

 

 

In Belgium it depends on where you live what your first foreign language will be (German, French or Dutch}

English is almost everywhere the second foreign language.

 

Spanish can only be studied in the tourism-track

Sign language is not considered a foreign language in both countries, neither is Latin / Ancient Greek.

 

I think this is the real crux of the issue. In most of the rest of the world, the second language everyone is learning is English. They may choose to learn other languages in addition to English, but just about everyone is learning English. This creates a community of learners that kids here just don't have. My dd has one friend learning Spanish, another learning French, another learning Chinese etc.. And, she is learning Latin. Just imagine how different it would be if all students in all schools in all states began learning Spanish (or whatever the chosen language was) in elementary school and continued on through college. 

 

Instead as parents, teachers and students, we are all sitting here wondering, "what language should I learn?" I think the emphasis on the "why" of language learning stems from the fact that there is no clear choice for students whose first language is English. So we tend to focus more on why we are learning a language in order to make a choice among a variety of interesting languages. In most other places the choice is not really a choice, it is automatic. 

[Joan in GE]

No, of course not the same people - but statistically, the Spanish speakers should also encounter people who value bilingualism, and I should also encounter people who are afraid German immigrants are taking their jobs.

The real irony is that in our area there are almost no Hispanic immigrants (1.2% in the county are of hispanic origin), certainly no area of employment where they could be taking jobs in the large scale, and the hostile people are not really fearing for their jobs or see their taxes go up. Our county is almost exclusively white (93%)

 

I see your point. I was thinking that you would need equal dispersal of those for and those against to be able to make an accurate comparison but maybe it's more complicated than that....If lots of people watch national news channels they can be concerned even if it doesn't touch them...My dh gets very excited about certain US politics even though he's certainly not in the neighborhood and they don't touch him at all....(nothing to do with the issues you've raised)

 

[Joan in GE]

I have noticed some rather major differences in the way I was taught French in school and the way foreign languages are taught in Europe.

 

This is really true, at least compared to how I was taught...If languages are still being taught this way in the US, it is a shame.

 

One problem for home education with the books used here is that they are completely teacher dependent - but I don't know how you get around that in relation to learning a foreign language, and maybe that's the point.

 

I too like Pimsler but can't say my children did...probably partly due to the conversation - as you mention - ordering beer, and other situations, which are more adult in orientation.. and 'old' voices :-)

[shage]

I just wanted to add my observations in response to career opportunities.  I have been working for the same large corporation for 21 years.  when I started we had a large international sales department comprised of employees fluent in a variety of languages.  About ten years ago that started to disappear, and now that department has been completely replaced by native speakers living in their own countries that telecommute.

 

 

 

Similar experience here only in  a diverse part of the US where language skills are needed in person, the trend is to use native speakers who have immigrated.

 

Fluency in a second or third language for a native English speaker might be a nice bonus, but generally speaking I think with globalization the trend is for it to be less a necessary skillset, not more.

 

I would prefer that not to be the case, but business runs on profit not preference.

 

 

[shawthorne44]

Regarding US and lameness in foreign language, from the corners of the US I have had exposure to, there is even a strong opposition to foreign language focus. There are areas where foreign language would actually be quite easy to encounter AND useful but there is a strong mentality in certain portions of the population that it is not English speaking U. S. Americans that should be investing in foreign language study. :-/ I don't know how prevalent that is throughout such a large population nation-wide or how much it actually affects education.

 

We had it pretty lame in (my part of) Australia, too. Three years of compulsory German, French, or Japanese, depending on which elementary school you attended (elective after that - and it occurred to me clarify that these were years 6 & 7 and then first year at high school, year 8) - two of those years (can't remember the third) were once per week classes and not all year long.

 

I think it is the lack of usefulness.  I remember trying to decide which language I would pick in college.  I wanted Ancient Greek because I figured that would be the most useful to me.  I love love love the old plays, and reading even snippets in the original would make my toes tingle.  My parents had picked French back in their day so that they could read the menu in a French restaurant.  If I'd had a crystal ball I would have picked German because I worked for a German company for years.  I ended up going for Russian because it had opening and Russian had recently become less popular.  

 

One thing I did notice is that it much more critical for non-English speakers to know a second language.  When a German does training in Taiwan, it is in English.  A Chinese person in Rome uses English.  etc.  

[mommyoffive]

Thanks for bumping this.  I am going back to read it all.

[mom2scouts]

I just realized this is an old post. It's still interesting though.

Edited October 11, 2016 by mom2scouts

[Joan in GE]

One of my children took a foreign language at the local public high school and became fluent. He was able to travel in Europe and even take a University level course taught in the language. Nobody believed he was an American. His high school teacher told me that his fluency was as good or better than hers. Another time, he met a native speaker who complimented him on his excellent speaking skills. I know this is extremely rare, but I guess a motivated student can become fluent with a few years of study. I'm not sure what or if he did anything differently than most of us who didn't learn much after years of study.

 

Your child sounds very motivated and it is impressive for the US.

 

I'm guessing that the way the language was taught also had an influence as there are very different ways and the methods they use here in Europe tend to get the kids speaking very quickly and well so it can be done.  A good teacher helps as well but if his was not as fluent, perhaps it was the program and personal interest ?

 

Would you be able to find out the name of the book or the program that they used? It's hard to find language programs in the US that really work well.

 

Thanks,

[mom2scouts]

Your child sounds very motivated and it is impressive for the US.

 

I'm guessing that the way the language was taught also had an influence as there are very different ways and the methods they use here in Europe tend to get the kids speaking very quickly and well so it can be done.  A good teacher helps as well but if his was not as fluent, perhaps it was the program and personal interest ?

 

Would you be able to find out the name of the book or the program that they used? It's hard to find language programs in the US that really work well.

 

Thanks,

The book they used was the Komm Mit series, which I believe is fairly popular in the US. Interestingly, my younger son is teaching himself German with Duolingo and is able to converse with his older sibling.

[Joan in GE]

The book they used was the Komm Mit series, which I believe is fairly popular in the US. Interestingly, my younger son is teaching himself German with Duolingo and is able to converse with his older sibling.

 

Interesting...I see it's by an American publisher too. The cover looks just like many of the student language books here. Both yours sound motivated. Thanks!