Scream Rooms in Public schools

[Lanny]

I just read this article and am posting the link here, because I suspect some of you will find this very interesting. Another good reason to Home School or have your DC become  Distance Learners, as my DD is. 

 

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/02/25/lawmakers-push-to-end-scream-rooms-to-punish-students/

[shawthorne44]

Wow.  I don't remember those when I went to P.S.  

 

I noticed this in the article.  

 

"fails to recognize the need for local school personnel to make decisions based on their onsite, real-time assessment of the situation." 

 

I wonder how often this is used to just get a child out of the teacher's hair?  

[regentrude]

It is easy to be horrified.

It is much harder to come up with an alternative solution that allows the other 20 students in the class to be educated and not harmed by a disruptive or violent class mate.

[shawthorne44]

I know what to do.  

1. Give up on Mainstreaming.  
2. As part of giving up on mainstreaming, allow the class sizes to vary.  If the kids in a class need a lot of intense teacher attention, then have the class size by 5-10 kids.  For the normal and gifted classes have it be 20-30.  
3. Sort kids by ability not age, and allow different tracking by subject.  
4. Have alternate schools for the kids that are capable but disruptive and/or violent.  

I am shocked that all states don't do #3 (eta: I meant #4).  I used to work with a teacher at one of those schools.  He said it was great.  He could concentrate on teaching since there was a cop in every classroom.  Kids know that the alternate school isn't any fun, and it is a deterrent.  

 

[Mommy22alyns]

I agree, mainstreaming needs to stop.

[MistyMountain]

I definitely don't think kids should be left in a room like that for hours with no one around. In my area we have a school for kids that have severe behavior problems and they pose a threat to other students safety. At this school they go for as long as they need to until they are ready to go back to a regular class by providing behavior intervention. In this school they do have a room where they use special holds and put the student if they are a risk to themselves or others. These are kids that are throwing desks, biting or stomping on others feet etc. I don't think these kids are like this because of bad parenting although maybe in one or two cases it is I think for the most part they have issues where they have very poor impulse and emotional control and they need help. There was a news article very down on using these rooms until the kids calm down but what else would you do? To me that is the best way to handle a kid who puts others at risk. I heard a teacher stands outside the door. I guess I can see them using it too much but parents were bringing it up as horrified that this room existed and little Johnny had to go in it until he calmed down. I know if it was my kid who was putting others at risk I would have no problem at all with them using a room like that. I am sure any parent of a child at risk because Johnny was throwing heavy objects their way would not have a problem with that child leaving the classroom until they cool down.

 

I am guessing there are incidents where this room is used too much or where kids are thrown in there to way long while no one else is around. I'm guessing though that most times it is used in cases where other students are putting other kids at risk and they are placed there for long enough for them to be manageable and not longer provide a threat. I am not against the concept but I can see it being abused.

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

In the city my husband works in, they call the cops for out of control behaviour - and not just for older kids, elementary too. The kids are then taken to the hospital for a psych eval and many admitted for 72 hours. This seems like it would be very traumatic and intrusive for the kids besides giving them a very negative view of police officers. Not to mention that it means cops are being parents instead of doing actual police work. Giving an out of control child a safe place to calm down without hurting anyone else doesn't seem like a terrible idea to me.

[IsabelC]

I wonder whether mainstreaming might work if there were enough aides to go round?

And if parents had enough education and support to put in place helpful strategies at home?

 

So much of school teaching seems to be more about behavior management than actual teaching of curriculum content. Some teachers deserve a medal for managing to teach the class anything. It seems unreasonable to expect teachers to manage physical and psychological problem behaviors, teach manners and morals, and teach the school curriculum.

[Farrar]

Some kids should be mainstreamed.  Some should not.  I don't think there's an easy answer there.

 

Sometimes it's useful for a child who is having a destructive tantrum to have a safe, quiet place to be mostly alone for a short time so I don't think banning these rooms altogether is an answer either, though obviously these stories are horrifying and clearly wrong.

 

If only you could mandate that people use common sense and show basic human decency and respect.

[IsabelC]

Some kids should be mainstreamed.  Some should not.  I don't think there's an easy answer there.

 

Sometimes it's useful for a child who is having a destructive tantrum to have a safe, quiet place to be mostly alone for a short time so I don't think banning these rooms altogether is an answer either, though obviously these stories are horrifying and clearly wrong.

 

If only you could mandate that people use common sense and show basic human decency and respect.

 

Yes, yes and yes indeed!

[TCB]

I can't believe that they have 24 hours to inform the parent that their child has been restrained. I think a whole lot of the problems would be taken care of if the parent had to be informed ( or documented attempt to inform parent) when the restraint was initiated. It would horrify me to think that my child was being restrained and I didn't know about it.

[shawthorne44]

I was born in '70.  I remember the schools had to get permission from the parents to spank.  This seems like as extreme or maybe more so.  

[IsabelC]

So what is the solution? Maybe there isn't a practical, easy or cost-effective solution once it gets to the point where you have classrooms full of children who can't behave as they are expected to. Maybe the effort needs to be directed towards the preschool years so that preventable problems are headed off early on? And maybe, just maybe, school isn't the best environment for some children ;)

[AmyontheFarm]

When my son came home to be homeschooled in grade 5 from the public school, I couldn't figure out why he ALWAYS had to have his back to a wall and why he would drop to the floor if there was a loud noise.  I finally asked someone in the spec ed  room and they informed me quietly, that one student had a habit of throwing desks and chairs.  Since, my son was never actually hurt I wasn't told this was happening.   My ped suggested my son had Posttraumatic stress disorder.  This is our third year homeschooling and we have a calmer happier child who doesn't jump and get skiddish with loud sounds and can now calmly sit at any chair at the kitchen table.

 

My son was main streamed, he had physical delays with writing and general fine motor skills.  I couldn't imagine him full time in the spec ed room because of the behaviour issues and understaffing issues in there.  But I was told, it also wasn't fair to the rest of his classmates.  He had to have a scribe, he had to have access to a laptop constantly and other parents thought it wasn't fair that their child had to write out their story and my boy could type it. 

 

There isn't one right answer.  I do wish kids were placed where they were challenged, and not filed into a room because they were born during a certain calendar year.  I also wish we as a society would fund education like we fund our sports teams.  Could you imagine the changes that would happen if we as a society could fund classes were there was never any more than 10 kids per teacher?

[NASDAQ]

My kids are pretty low-key and quiet. They're a lot more likely to be the children getting screamed at, not the child who has to be restrained because he's screaming and violent.

 

1:1 aides is not going to do it if a kid is really determined out of control, especially if the aide isn't supposed to restrain the pupil. And I don't think that home schooling or distance learning is necessarily a solution here. Parents with kids that troubled may really, really need the relief of having somewhere safe to send their kid during the day. Sometimes really high needs kids need a team.

[stripe]

I second the idea of a scream room in my own house, but I am not comfortable with a prison-like environment in schools. The book Lockdown High scared the heck out of me. Locking a traumatized child alone in a room just does not seem like the answer to me.

 

I was born in '70.  I remember the schools had to get permission from the parents to spank.  This seems like as extreme or maybe more so.  

I was spanked at age 4 or 5, without parental permission, in front of the class, with my pants pulled down, and then I was locked in a closet for what seemed like hours, probably was not, but was certainly not a short period of time. For what, you wonder? For getting up to ask the teacher a question about my work.

 

In the city my husband works in, they call the cops for out of control behaviour - and not just for older kids, elementary too. 

I've seen reports of kids being arrested or whatever for very minimally disrespectful behavior like writing on the desk. Or the six year old for having a temper tantrum. Or the dad who was arrested for leaving the long car line and being on foot to pick up his kids -- only cars are allowed. What?!

[shawthorne44]

I, for one, would quite like to have a scream room in my house. Complete with padding so those on the outside can't hear.

 

I recently saw a British documentary about children with Aspergers, and the school one of the participating kids attended featured a scream room. The kid said it was great that he had somewhere to go when he was overwhelmed and that it helped him calm down. Going to that room was a great alternative to disrupting the classroom and he received no judgement for going there. I thought it was a brilliant idea. 

 

I think a voluntary scream room is a totally different thing.  

[shawthorne44]

...I was spanked at age 4 or 5, without parental permission, in front of the class, with my pants pulled down, and then I was locked in a closet for what seemed like hours, probably was not, but was certainly not a short period of time. For what, you wonder? For getting up to ask the teacher a question about my work...

 

That is shocking.  

[Kathryn]

I can only wish we'd had them at the last school I worked. Trying to move an out-of-control, screaming kid out of a classroom, when you have blood streaming down your hands is not fun. I still have scars, both emotional and physical. Sorry Spec Ed parents out there, but I think mainstreaming has failed. You take an average K classroom of 22 kids, have 5 of the kids MR, 4 kids with behavior problems, 1-2 in wheelchairs, add in 2 aides, and it's a disaster.

No need to apologize to this special needs mom. Out of many reasons we homeschool is ODS's autism. He is much too smart for me to be able to accept him being in a special needs classroom. However, sensory and behavior issues would make mainstreaming a disaster for him and for other students. I'm grateful that we are able to homeschool.

[Ravin]

I think teachers and aides need to be good at de-escalating before a child gets out of control. Voluntary scream rooms don't sound like a bad idea, but they should probably involve a one-way window so the child can be under supervision--maybe adjacent to the nurse's office. And children with chronic problems, who need one-on-one attention, the school might actually save money by teaching as homebound students rather than trying to shove them in a classroom--send the teacher/aide to the child's home, or combine an aide (and as someone mentioned much-needed respite for the parents) with distance learning. An alternative at-school arrangement where children were together only for certain things and otherwise recieving one-on-one instruction in small individual classrooms that isolate them from the distractions of other students is another possibility.

 

In short, there have got to be a hundred better ways to do things than duct taping kids to their chairs or forcing them into complete isolation without supervision.

[mommymilkies]

I worked as an aide with severe/profound and behavioral disordered kids.  I loved it.  I do think *some* mainstreaming is good.  One of my brothers was placed in a Special ed class because he is dyslexic.  It killed his self-esteem.  But they refused to let him use overlays or make accommodations for him.  Finally after several years of my parents fighting the schools, they mainstreamed him and he's now about to graduate college.  Another brother is in his senior year part time in a special ed class and part time mainstreamed because he has an auditory processing disorder.  It's stupid.  Really stupid.  But mainstreaming the more severe cases aren't really good for anyone.  The kids don't get enough specialized help and it can be dangerous or disruptive for other students.  My SIL is a certified teacher currently working as an aide (state budget issues).  Observing a class a few years ago, she was shocked.  They had a zero tattling rule.  You would get in trouble if you told on anyone for anything.  While she watched, a boy with a behavioral disorder stabbed the kid next to him with his pencil.  With the pencil sticking *out* of him, the stabbed kid sat there quietly crying and refused to get help so he wouldn't get in trouble.  That's so screwed up.  I don't think being locked in solitary for hours is going to help.  It seems more damaging and dangerous.  But teachers need to have either more help/aides, less mainstreamed classes, or some training in defusing and preventing such situations. 

[JumpyTheFrog]

No wonder so many new teachers quit in less than four years. I can't imagine trying to teach under these conditions. This is ridiculous! Maybe these teachers need to have hidden cameras and send the footage to the media, so enough people will be outraged that something will change.

[shawthorne44]

Many of these stories make my heart hurt.  

Also makes me glad I don't have to send my angel to someplace like this.  I honestly feel murderous when I think of my child as the victim.  

[abba12]

the scream rooms as described in the article are obviously awful and misused. we should find them shocking. but it is just as shocking to have a classmate have one wrist sprained and one broken by an add kid in a fuss. it should be just as shocking when the special needs teacher doesn't have time for the blind student, deaf student, and student with dwarfism, because she is so busy with the behavioural kids and the kids with severe downs syndrome who should never have been mainstreamed in such a small school. it should be just as shocking when the gifted students and well behaved students are used as substitute teachers aids because it's the only way the teacher can teach the rest of the students (more than one teacher did this with me personally, as I was a gifted student, despite being special needs myself as a blind student)

 

and, as harsh and as awful as it sounds, isn't it better for one child to be traumatized than for the whole class to be traumatized as they watch a child lose it, watch their teacher tackle him down to protect the other students (he was a 13 or 14 year old rugby player in a class of 11 and 12 year olds) , and then suffer the loss of that teacher who was fired for tackling the student while they are forced to sit bedside said student again the very next day.

 

there's no easy answers. the system is fundamentally broken and measures like these rooms, as horrific as they are (and they are, absolutely appalling) are actually in some cases the lesser of two evils.

 

all I know is that I'm thankful to homeschool, both my 'normal' kids, and any special needs which may come along, because neither group it's being served well by the current system

[katilac]

I think teachers and aides need to be good at de-escalating before a child gets out of control.  

 

I think that's easy to say, hard to do! 

[Ali in OR]

I feel blessed to be in our school district. My disabled dd is in a life skills classroom along with almost 20 kids with varying diagnoses--I know some with autism, other wheelchair kids, mental retardation, etc. The kids individual plans determine how much mainstreaming they have. My non-verbal daughter goes to only choir and an aerobics class--she responds well to music which both classes feature. It would not be appropriate for her to be in an academic class, but it is appropriate for some of her classmates and I'm glad they have that right. And it seems to be working well in our district--I have never heard of major issues as are being mentioned in this thread. We have truly excellent special ed teachers and aides who do a great job teaching these kiddos how to handle themselves in the world. I've also been very impressed with the mainstream teachers who have included my dd in appropriate class activities and always model acceptance and love. The "typical" kids who come from the one elementary school with the life skills program are fantastic with these kids and don't see them as somehow robbing them of their educational rights. I'm impressed with the compassion and care they continue to exhibit in middle school and high school (being a student aide in the life skill program is pretty popular). I'm not saying that problems don't exist in other places, but as there is at least one place that is doing a good job at educating both typical and special needs kids, I don't think the right answer is necessarily separate education systems for these populations or reduced educational opportunities for those with special needs.

[Ottakee]

As a former special education teacher, a foster parent for many troubled kids, and adoptive mom of 3 special needs kids there are no easy answers.

 

A room like mentioned above would never fly here but some classrooms do have a time out room but the time is much shorter, the child is monitored at all times, bathroom breaks, etc.

 

I do think that regular ed teachers are asked to do way too much with special ed students with an aide (who most of the time is not specially trained but learns on the job).  I know when my son was in public school for 1st grade he went out 1/2 time to resource room but his poor 1st grade teacher had 24 kids with several of them with mental impairments (not just LDs), then a few with LDs and several with behavioral issues.  Makes it very hard to teach a class when you have your regular and gifted kids and then some functioning at a 3-4 year old level and out of control kids.  She was great, but she just couldn't do it all.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

and, as harsh and as awful as it sounds, isn't it better for one child to be traumatized than for the whole class to be traumatized as they watch a child lose it, watch their teacher tackle him down to protect the other students (he was a 13 or 14 year old rugby player in a class of 11 and 12 year olds) , and then suffer the loss of that teacher who was fired for tackling the student while they are forced to sit bedside said student again the very next day.

 

Well, no. Not to that child, nor to his family. I don't subscribe to this philosophy at all.

[MistyMountain]

I don't think that mainstreaming works perfectly in all cases but I also don't think that the blanket kids shouldn't be mainstreamed is the answer either. There is no one sized fits all solution.

 

My friend has a son with CP who started out in a life skills class. He is very impacted physically including his ability to talk but he does not have a cognitive delay and no learning issues. When he was in the life skills class there were no other kids in the class that was similar to him cognitively. He finally got mainstreamed this year and it is going well. He does need an aide but he isn't causing a disruption and he is the only kid with an aide.

 

The life skills kids visit the regular classroom on a case by case basis. I think it is good for kids to be exposed to all kinds of kids. When I went to school they lumped kids with physical needs, issues like blindness, kids with behavioral challenges and kids with cognitive delays together and we never saw them.

 

In my area we have a school that has a program for highly gifted learners, we have a school for kids with behavior challenges where they go for as long as needed, we have life skills classes where kids do most of their learning but do get to go to the regular class at times and kids that get pull outs. There is a resource room for kids that need a break from the regular class for whatever reason but they are mostly mainstreamed. We have a multi sensory program for kids with dyslexia with no cognitive problems.

 

One thing I don't like that they do is they sometimes group all kids with IEPS in one classroom and then send extra help for that classroom. The system isn't perfect. There are more kids than spots in the multi sensory programs and a lot of dyslexic kids get missed altogether because it is really misunderstood. The schools seem less aware of things like dysgraphia, audio processing issues, dyscalculia etc. I'm sure there are kids with behavioral problems that aren't extreme enough for the special school but who are causing issues in the classroom. I think mainstreaming needs to be looked at on a case by case basis. I'm sure there are cases where it doesn't work just as there are cases where kids don't get educated to their full potential because they are not allowed to be mainstreamed.

[abba12]

Well, no. Not to that child, nor to his family. I don't subscribe to this philosophy at all.

 

 I never said it was acceptable or alright. I'm simply saying it is the lesser of two terrible, unacceptable, evils. Neither one should ever be happening and the system that allows them to is severely flawed, but in such a system where one has to happen, 30 children should not suffer for the sake of one when the level of trauma is, in my mind, equal (as opposed to 30 kids suffering something minor to stop one suffering something major. In this incidence, 30 children would suffer something major to protect one child from suffering something equally major. Why is that one child more important than the other 30 that they should suffer something equally as bad to protect him from it. Again, if the single child were to suffer something much more severe that would be entirely different, but that's not the case in the situation I used)