Please help. My 4th grader is crying over math.

[Faithful_Steward]

My daughter is bright and creative, but she's struggling. She STILL doesn't have her math facts memorized, though I haven't pushed it too hard because she is so reluctant. I've had her do xtramath, Mathrider, flashmaster, chanting, flash cards, and skip counting. I've purchased the MUS skip counting songs, but she hates them because she says they are babyish.

 

She's in Saxon 5/4 and I feel like I'm dragging her through. I teach the lessons myself and draw pictures or use manipulatives as needed. Manipulatives seem to annoy her, but sometimes those things are just necessary to explain a concept. Sometimes I'll see her eyes light up in understanding, but it seems short-lived. I love the way Saxon develops concepts, but the tight spiral might be part of the problem. She doesn't think mathematically at all. During the mental warm ups she melts down when presented with a problem like 278+300. Even when I give her a strategy to do it mentally, I can tell she's trying to add the ones/tens/hundreds in columns in her head. I naturally think in pictures and patterns, but she looks at me like I'm crazy when I show her how I do it.

 

I really don't know how to explain this child. Her gifts are in the creative arts and language. I accept that math might be difficult for her, but it shouldn't have to be miserable. I do expect her to follow a college-prep path for math. I don't want her to cry or say she feels stupid.

 

I've put the math book away for now. I want her to work on her math facts, but not in a way that is drudgery. She does tend towards laziness when something doesn't come easily for her. My son will practice difficult things just for the sheer joy of mastering them, but she avoids the conflict. So basically her problems are a combination of no fact mastery, lack of true understanding, and a lack of perseverance. How should I tackle this?

 

 

[Ellie]

Welcome to the forum. :seeya:

 

*Many* of us, adults and children alike, "tend toward laziness when something doesn't come easily" to us, and to "avoid the conflict." So my first observation would be to not think of it as being "lazy," which is a really awful label, or having a "lack of perseverance," and my second would be to not compare her to her brother. We all just work differently. She might be inclined to work for mastery in a different area, just as your son might "avoid the conflict" in a different area.

 

Perhaps she just needs one thing, not an abundance of stuff. Perhaps she has been overwhelmed by xtramath, Mathrider, flashmaster, chanting, flash cards, and skip counting, which is a boatload of things to have done with a child who is only 9, and that's why she has shut down.

 

I'd put the math away until after Easter. My recommendation would be R&S's "Progressing With Arithmetic," and *only* that. You can order from the publisher by calling (606) 522-4348. You may also request free curriculum samples and a scope and sequence.

 

 

[Jess4879]

This is exactly where we were at with my oldest last year.  Every day in math was a small torture to just "get through."  My explanations did nothing to help her and she was getting so discouraged.  She used to love math and it was just slowly dwindling.  We started using Reflex Math for math facts, which she loves, and we switched to TT.  She gets it and she loves math again.  Her confidence is back and she's doing wonderfully.  TT isn't for everyone, but it worked wonders here. :)

[Hunter]

Sometimes a Saxon book needs to be started over from the beginning, to provide more review. We had a recent thread on Latin, where it was mentioned that CC starts the Henle book 3 times, before attempting to finish it. I have started textbooks over with both of my boys, and in my own self-education, and it has been very beneficial.

 

The newer editions of Saxon are wider and more accelerated than the older ones. Students are juggling so much more than they used to at younger and younger ages. First edition Saxon 54 with 10 year old worked. That spiral was widened, made more difficult, and shoved on 8 and 9 year olds. But we have to, right? That's the new way and kids need to keep up. They just have to DO it, right?

 

I believe that all children have the right to be placed in math at their own developmental level, no matter what the rest of the world is doing. Sometimes we are not given the WHOLE truth about what is taking place in other countries with ALL the children. We all know that despite using some CM, I'm not a CMer, but she did get it right to say children are persons. Children are not merely parts of STEM global competition.

 

Charles McMurry said that a students only needs enough math to leaven the rest of the curriculum. Art Robinson made his kids read their own math books, so a huge factor in their math placement was their reading level, not their math level. I now look at a student's TOTAL curriculum before making math decisions. It all needs to mesh up in a balanced way.

 

Many children are just not developmentally ready for the new Saxon 54 at age 9. There has been about a 2 year acceleration of expectations.

[Chris in VA]

I, too, would just relax.

 

I'd probably work on facts by using manipulatives and copywork, and mathematical thinking by using pattern blocks, puzzles, cooking, and maybe even some Montessori works.

 

5/4 at 9 is advanced. You have plenty of time. I would strive to lower her anxiety (it sounds like anxiety to me, anyway).

 

I do like the Rod and Staff recommendation, as well as re-doing Saxon, but I'd just take a break and do facts, for the rest of the year, as well as the above activities.

[Faithful_Steward]

Thanks. My gut was to wait and start Saxon again in a few months.

 

I'm open to any suggestions for games or puzzles!

 

I also feel like I need to inspire her. She loves stories, puzzles, riddles, and goofy humor. Would any of the WTM -recommended math supplements (LOF, Family math) help with this?

[shinyhappypeople]

 

 

 I'm not a CMer, but she did get it right to say children are persons. Children are not merely parts of STEM global competition. 

 

YES!!!!   I love, love, love this quote. 

 

Charles McMurry said that a students only needs enough math to leaven the rest of the curriculum.

 

How much is enough?  How do you know when you've hit the sweet spot of just enough leavening?  

 

OP:  My 10 yo DD sounds similar to yours.  She also is doing well with TT.  I actually started her at the very beginning (a very good place to start...), which is TT3.  Going through that easy level helped build her confidence and enjoyment of math.  We're now maybe 1/4 of the way through TT4 and she's still doing well.  I've added in Miquon to give her extra practice in foundational skills and to improve her overall number sense.  However, not every child needs this.

 

I occasionally (mentally) freak out about her being "behind" (oh, how I hate that word!) but then I get a grip, and look at how far she's come.

 

The one thing that never worked was pushing her to go farther, faster, sooner.  It actually had the opposite effect.  

 

If you want to stick with Saxon, perhaps you could look at Saxon Intermediate 3.

[lorisuewho]

My son was really struggling last year with facts. Like you, we did a lot of fun stuff and online math programs, and it didn't work. This year we did Rod and Staff Arithmetic Grade 3, and now he knows all his facts: addition, subtraction, multiplication, division. He knows them inside out and backwards blindfolded with his hands tied behind his back. It wasn't a fun curriculum at all, but he got it and it gave him confidence. Now we are in a better place to do a different math, but we really needed this year to just get it down so he could free up his mind to work on harder problems instead of figuring out basic facts.

[redsquirrel]

I want to just agree with what was said that your daughter isn't lazy etc. She is having a hard time, and good for you for realizing that crying during math isn't something to accept.

 

There are lots of different kinds of math and clearly Saxon isn't working for her. Good thing you homeschool and can mix it up to find what does.

 

And some kids just have a difficult time memorizing facts. It doesn't mean they aren't any good at math. My boys are both quite competent with math, but man oh man, getting math facts memorized at 8 and 9 and 10 is just murder around here. Both my kids are fantastic at dictation and poetry recital but make them recite math facts and it all ends in tears. I gave up on instant recall with my oldest and by 6th grade it all suddenly got automatic.

 

How do you feel about a DVD or computer math program?

 

And have you seen the Education Unboxed math videos? She uses cuisinaire rods. Now, I use them for my own education. I watch them and it gives me ideas of how to present new ideas and how to use manipulatives.  And, I let my kids use a place value mat or rods or base 10 blocks, or a whiteboard or their fingers etc as long as they want. I don't really care what they need to solve the problems. Sooner or later the constant repetition with rods or blocks etc worms its way into their heads and it gets faster to not use the concrete. But I let them do it on their own time.  

 

Right now you need to focus on getting her confidence back. That is the most important thing. She needs to feel like she can learn and that math isn't the boss of her.

[SkateLeft]

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[Χά�ων]

DS struggles with memorization, I skipped the memorization part. He is in 4th grade and started prealgrebra a couple of weeks ago. I still have him work on his math facts daily but I stopped waiting for him to learn them. 

[Soror]

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/499692-looking-to-do-some-relaxed-math-here-want-to-share-ideas/

 

I started a thread here while back about relaxed math and making it fun again as my own, usually math-loving son, had started to hate math. I'm happy to say we are back to enjoying math. 

 

I'd also agree with the idea that you not think of it as a character issue. Personally, I'd put Saxon away and try to give her a bit of a break and help bring back the fun and lesson the anxiety.

[Kidlit]

I don't know if it has already been mentioned (or if you need yet another suggestion), but the RightStart math games are a fun way to practice. You can purchase just a game kit from RS, or check around on second hand sites.

[Walking-Iris]

I like Miquon for learning math facts, mainly because it helps children understand the facts beyond simple rote memorization. They don't merely use a multiplication table, they build one from the ground up. 

 

I also agree with the RightStart cards (although I personally feel that the Games book has a steep learning curve).

 

The SchoolHouse Rocks DVD works wonders here. 

 

My oldest worked through the 4th grade Knowing Mathematics book this past summer (for summer math) and it really helped with solidifying facts and some of the various mental strategies. 

 

http://www.amazon.com/Houghton-Mifflin-Knowing-Math-Student/dp/0618248323/ref=pd_sim_b_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=07R35HDFR4B5ZM12DH7P

 

[Tenaj]

I'll just share our experience here for what it's worth.  My now 12yods worked through Saxon 5/4 during his fourth grade year.   We only made it through about half of the book because I always make them back up lessons if they bomb a test.  So we kept plowing along and plowing along until *I* was sick of looking at that Saxon 5/4 book.  I realized that he was completely sick of it too - LOL!  Anyway, I decided to see where we were and I gave him the placement test for CLE Math.  He tested to start at the end of second grade math!  

 

We decided to try it and it's been a great fit for him.  He's now at the end of Grade 5 math in CLE but claims he has the best math curriculum in the world which is saying something from him because he still struggles constantly in math (and I'm assuming he always will).  

 

Anyway, I agree with those who say to start over in Saxon but if it gets to the point where no progress is being made - just hang it up and try something else.  I think the secret for my son was that I backed him up without regard to his "grade" level and put him back where he needed to be to gain confidence.  

[Jess4879]

 

 

I also agree with the RightStart cards (although I personally feel that the Games book has a steep learning curve).

 

 

 

So glad this isn't just me!!  There are games in there we haven't even touched because it just seemed like too much work! 

[Faithful_Steward]

Thank you all so much! I feel like I have a good game plan now. We will take a few weeks off and work on math facts and play math games. Today she ONLY did xtramath and spent the rest of her math hour playing chess with her brother and getting in some extra piano practice. (her choice) I didn't realize how much we were both dreading math until I gave myself permission to put the book away.

 

 I think I'll let her spend the rest of this week doing light math facts and then focus a little more on games and living math books next week. When we start Saxon again we will back up and see if that helps. I suspect Saxon will be much easier once her math facts are memorized. I also think fixing my attitude and approaching math again with more enthusiasm and encouragement will work wonders.

 

I'll keep TT and R&S in mind if it turns out that she just can't move forward with Saxon. I'm also interested in the Knowing Mathematics book for some extra help with mental strategies. Does anyone have an opinion on Zaccaro's Become a Problem Solving Genius for this purpose?

 

Thanks again for your thoughtful responses!

[Aurelia]

She might like the elementary books for Life of Fred or Murderous Maths (if that's her style of humor). You can also read various living math books like the Sir Cumference series, or Spaghetti and Meatballs For All. My DD liked reading through the Beast Academy guide (but hated the workbook). Waldorf math stories are good, too. 

[redsquirrel]

Just want to mention Timez Attack. If she likes video game style learning it is really great. It did the trick for my boys with multiplication. However, it also has a learning curve. For example, my younger boy had a very difficult time learning to type on the number pad. That was a huge source of tantrums at first. He was getting answers wrong because he couldn't type them in fast enough. I did find a way to increase the length of time allowed to answer. I know the Timez Attack people strongly suggest you don't do that, but I needed to cut him some slack. He is a bit of a perfectionist and doesn't handle a timer well. yet. He doesn't handle it well yet. I have faith it will get better as he gets older.

 

Timez attack does have a free version and it is complete. You don't have to pay to play. I did pay for the full version because moving to different worlds is a big motivator for my kids.

[ElizabethB]

:grouphug:

 

I would fill in a matrix like this for her for addition and have her use it for a bit. Then, have her make her own daily before starting math.

 

http://www.donpotter.net/pdf/multiplication-matrix.pdf

[NASDAQ]

John Mighton has two books on this: The End of Ignorance and The Myth of Ability. Both are really good for resetting your math teaching/math attitude.

[dereksurfs]

This is exactly where we were at with my oldest last year.  Every day in math was a small torture to just "get through."  My explanations did nothing to help her and she was getting so discouraged.  She used to love math and it was just slowly dwindling.  We started using Reflex Math for math facts, which she loves, and we switched to TT.  She gets it and she loves math again.  Her confidence is back and she's doing wonderfully.  TT isn't for everyone, but it worked wonders here. :)

 

Yep, ReflexMath was the way to go for our dds when they were having problems with math facts.  I would try it out and see what she thinks.  Then stick with one main spine and that's it.

 

ReflexMath sometimes has great discounts available through: https://www.homeschoolbuyersco-op.org/Reflex/?c=1

[lewelma]

FWIW my ds was still memorizing the subtraction tables while concurrently learning algebra.  Sometimes it helps to think of many different subjects within math just like there is grammar, spelling, composition, style, etc within LA. Your student can be at different levels within each one.  Mine was ahead in conceptual math while behind in math facts.

 

Ruth in NZ

[...................]

Hi!!!

 

Well if she doesn't have her math facts memorized, math is going to be really tedious and frustrating for her. I wouldn't stop doing math but I would do flashcards together in the morning and evening. Saxon 3 has wonderful color coded cards that make it so easy to be organized about the way you study.

 

Additionally, I really recommend Times Tales for help memorizing multiplication. It worked wonders for both of my kids

 

However, memorizing facts takes consistency and time. Even with help from Times Tales there is no magic program that will make them stick long term. You have to just keep reviewing them.

 

I personally have found you need to give one year per set of facts to leRn, and digest and have instant recall. Then, you still need to review for a few years to have permanent recall. Some kids a little less.

[birchbark]

Times Tales! Makes learning the multiplication and division tables fun and almost effortless. One of my best all-time homeschool purchases. I agree that math will be frustrating until she gets her facts down.

 

I would put away math books for a few weeks while working on facts. Then I would begin again with a mastery-style math. Math Mammoth and Strayer-Upton are two cheap options.