After Dancing Bears C? Rewards? Megawords? Reading Pathways? High Noon 2?

[halibecs]

We just finished Dancing Bears C and the program worked well.  We are also 2 lessons from finishing Apples and Pears A.  Loved it also--it really worked.  What should I go to next?  My son is being evaluated for a range of cognitive functions right now (reading, processing, executive function) but I won't have the results for another month or so.  Tentative results show dyseidetic dyslexia and visual motor problems that make handwriting exhausting (and we are back in school so he is having to do a lot of writing each day) so we are taking a break before starting Apples and Pears B because it is so writing intensive.  However, I want to continue to work on reading.  

 

What program takes a similar morpheme based approach and develops multisyllable word strategies? Are there any programs similar to Apples and Pears without as much writing?  I am not convinced explicit syllable rules are going to work well for him.

 

We are also beginning some at home hacked vision therapy because he has problems with saccadic eye movements. 

 

Thank you!

 

[Lecka]

You could look at ways to reduce handwriting.  Scribing for him, letting him do work orally, that kind of thing.  For spelling -- possibly letter tiles.

 

For a lot of things -- some kids have an easier time with a dry erase marker and board.  I have heard of someone who put paper in a transparent sleeve and her son writes on that with a dry erase marker.

 

Maybe a different pen, or different paper. 

 

Something to consider -- lots of options that way.

 

My son has seen some small improvement with visual-motor integration with OT.  You might look at the OT blogs/mom sites as well as vision ----- just mentioning another option. 

 

Hope the saccadic eye movement will go well!

 

[LaughingCat]

Rewards  is not morpheme but is focused on prefixes and suffixes in a non-memorizing/non-rule way.  Definitely multi-syllable. DD's multi-syllable attack had huge improvement from Rewards. 

 

Haven't tried any of the other 3.

 

[Lecka]

If you google Rewards FCRR you can see the FCRR report for Rewards.  You can also see the sample.

 

I have used one level (level B) of Abecedarian with my son (it might be low for her -- it might overlap Dancing Bears C -- I don't know).  It teaches kids to experiment with dividing a word into syllables at different points, and seeing if you make a word, vs. analyzing the word, finding the vowels, identifying open or closed syllables, etc.  I have done that way with my son, I have not done "Open and Closed syllables" specifically.  I have had a paper where he reads syllables that ARE open or closed and I tell him the pronunciation, but not labelling it "open/closed."  Has gotten him a little far, I am still looking at more work on multi-syllable words for him, too.

 

I am also intrigued by a book -- but I don't think my son is ready for it -- called Week by Week Phonics and Word Study by Wiley Blevins.  He lists the most common syllable chunks -- and has kids practice reading those syllable chunks.  So they can learn to identify syllable chunks.  He lists them in the free introduction.  I have a book by him (about Intermediate Phonics) and he has a sample where -- you can write some syllables in boxes, and kids practice reading them, a few at a time, repeated on a piece of paper.  It is the same difference as flash cards -- but my son hates flash cards, but has done this "reading words in boxes where the same word is repeated several times on a page" thing and he does not mind it like he minds flashcards. 

 

I have not done this too much  -- I have mainly taught him some prefixes and suffixes.  But I always look at this book. 

 

When it gets to longer words, I think I am going to need to teach him the open/closed syllable thing later on.  Some words that have a lot of syllables, where it would be very hard to just try kind-of randomly to break it into syllables.  But I think he will be better if he has some exposure and familiarity before going into that, of some of the stuff, so he doesn't have to learn everything all at once.  That is so hard for him. 

 

Sorry, rambling. 

 

Oh -- I have looked at samples of Megawords, and it looks harder than some of the others.  It looks good, but it looks hard.  That is just my take in looking at samples, and thinking how it would be for my son. 

[LaughingCat]

Actually DD also did Abecedarian C - which is morphological.  I tend to forget about Abecedarian because it didn't work very well for DD.   It is a good program though - well laid out, contains many of the thigs I have seen recommended for struggling readers and lots of people get great gains from it from what I've seen online.  Abeced. C would be good for a reader struggling with multi-syllable words and not quite ready for Rewards IMO.  It's possible however, that DB C and Abeced. C cover similar material.

 

 

[Ottakee]

What we did with Apples and Pears B was to do each lesson over 2-3 days. You could spread it out even more if needed to cut back on the handwriting.  If it is working well then I would continue with that.

 

You might check out www.iseesam.com for their sets 6-8 readers to see if they would be a good fit or if he is beyond them.  They work well with the Dancing Bears/Apples and Pears approach.

[Lecka]

I am strongly considering Abecedarian Level C for this summer.  Level B was good for my son, and the samples look like they are going to be about right.

 

So -- good to hear, Laughing Cat.  I hate that it was not a good fit for your daughter, though! 

[halibecs]

Does it matter if I get the older Rewards Intermediate or do I need to get the newer 2nd edition?  It looks like I need the teacher's guide, can anyone confirm?

 

It seems like this or High Noon Level 2 would be pretty open and go...

 

Also, if we do go back to Apples and Pears, is that enough help for reading? it seems to be so heavily spelling focused...I think I would have to do that plus something else. 

 

Thank you!

 

 

[FairProspects]

You need the Teacher's Edition for Rewards. I can't speak to whether the 1st edition is different from the 2nd.

[halibecs]

Thanks I figured.  Anyone have a used set they want to sell?  Having trouble finding the right teacher's manual except through the publisher.

[LaughingCat]

Looking at them both together, I now  think Abecd. C and DB C do NOT really overlap

 

DB C focuses on sounds  -are, -ire/ -le, -ure/-ion/ y to i/ -ure/ -age, each level has a page of learning 1 or 2 new sounds, a page of adding different endings to words, close sentences, general practice of all previously learned sounds, and work on speeding up.

 

Ab C focuses on pre/suffix and root words - first 3 chapters of 10:  un, fore, in, ed, ful, ly/ re, mis,ous, age/ in, de, ion, ive/  and roots of duct, duce, struc, ject, flect - and getting much harder through the book.   Each chapter focuses solely on a set of specfic prefix/suffixes/roots.  There are more new sounds presented at once.   There are a couple sections that are more general strategy in each chapter - accent flexing practice, looping the syllables,  and combining prefix+root+suffix, but the main focus is more mastery based - not much repetition of previously learned parts.

 

Rewards (Secondary) focuses on a strategy (Look for prefixes, suffixes and vowels in order to split the word into sounds - then say each sound to say the word) each section is meant to support a part of that strategy: 1st half --  oral blending parts into words, vowel combinations, finding the vowel, word part reading, looping words, oral accent flexing, common prefix, spelling by sound and suffix reading -- 2nd half -- vowel combinations, prefix/suffix reading, looping, word reading, spelling by sound, sentence practice and passage reading.   I believe Intermediate has a section of adding different endings - Secondary had that in the back of the teacher's manual, not in the lesson.

 

One negative of Abec.(in general not just C) for DD is - the mastery style of  presenting a small number of word 'parts' (in C it is prefix/suffix/root parts) and then practicing only those specific parts.  These types or exercises seem easy for her (correct with no mistakes) but she does not  internalize it to be used/recognized/known later.   She does better with 'here are some new word parts, now lets practice those mixed in with lots of other word parts you already learned' - as both DB and Rewards do.   

 

Both DB and Rewards have sections that I feel don't do anything for DD as well.  Close sentences, for example, in DB (and all over the web as a reading struggles suggestion)- DD aces those.  The adding different endings section in both DB and Rewards - aced with no carryover to actual reading.

 

And one huge positive Rewards Secondary has that no other program has had - it was meant for high school students. So less of a remedial feeling for DD who has a few years to go before high school and hates that she has to be 'remediated'.   I even went ahead and bought the addtl Social Studies/Science book for just this reason - although the 1st passage in Social Studies (all we've done so far) is a step up from Rewards Secondary in difficulty.

 

And yes, that means it is hard for her - but I have come to believe I was doing her no favors keeping her down near her 'independent' reading level. Her instructional reading level has always tested much higher than grade level at the same time her independent reading level tests as much lower than grade level. So I am trying to keep most of her out loud reading practice up as close as possible to frustration level without actually hitting it.

 

(I bought my Rewards Secondary Manual and Student book on Amazon - from the same reseller. I figured they probably got them from the same place so would be the same edition.  Pricewise it was definitely worth it, even if I had been wrong and had to buy another student manual)

[halibecs]

Thanks so much for this...I will check out Abecedarian C as well (I think there web site is down right now?)

 

[ElizabethB]

You might want to try the 1908 Webster's Speller, it is divided syllables for you so you don't have to apply the rules. You can start with the excerpt on my how to tutor page to try it out, link at the end, #12:

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/howtotutor.html

[Pen]

How old a child?

 

Can you give a sense of what he can read without referring to levels in Dancing Bears and Apples and Pears, but rather in terms of words he can read or cannot read? 

[LaughingCat]

I don't think giving a few words by themselves is necessarily a useful indicator.  For example when I gave DD the Rewards pre/post test before she did the Rewards program, out of 20 words she could read about half of them correctly, mixed throughout the list. 

 

ElizabethB has a good word test on her site though, that give different levels of words and ramps up in difficulty more than others I've given DD.

[Pen]

I am at least a little familiar with a couple of the things being asked about as a next step (Megawords a bit, HN, and very minimally Rewards, more so Language! by same pub). But I have no idea what stage being at a certain level of Dancing Bears or Apples and Pears would be, since I am not familiar with them, thus suggestions about a next step don't make sense without some sense of where child is now, in some terms I can understand. Another way to do it might be to state what is covered by DB and A&P up to current level.

 

Without that, the best I can say is that a child who is at the Rewards stage is probably above HN2 stage, though some HN readers might be a big help for getting lots of controlled practice, and can help move to automaticity and fluency practice that is not so rules based.  Also HN sells a book, or used to, which you can also get on Amazon, the name of which I have forgotten but has a partly morpheme based approach to longer words. It is something like Power Tools for Literacy for age 9 and up, though that does not sound quite right.  If the child were younger there are other choices that might be better..  

 

If the child is now reading fluently and automatically as to single syllable words with no troubles there, then I would think Megawords might be enough to make the bridge to longer words. I had gotten Megawords first level, but then my ds suddenly started managing the multi-syllable words when we used HN strategies on the Magic Tree House, so I have seen it, but not actually used it.

 

 

[LaughingCat]

Not OP, but fwiw here are some words from the end of DB C that OP said they just finished:

 

(1st column of last 'decoding power page')

silage, alphabet, elephant, motion, original, reflection, passage, photograph, collision, spies, giant, mansion, chemistry, exciting, conclusion, postage, distraction

 

The last section focus is -ion words, so the opposite page has: motion, promotion, emotion, reflection, section (and various sentences using those) 

 

 

 

[halibecs]

Thanks to you all for your thoughtful input and providing the Dancing Bears C excerpt.  My son was a little rocky through Dancing Bears C.  For example, on one of the last pages, out of 76 words he missed 6: anchor, nephew, character, distraction, aviation, schedule.  But he read caution, foundation, partition, chemistry, conversation etc. There were 2 mastery tests that he should have failed (you were only allowed one mistake on whole page and he made two), but I let him keep going and just kept reviewing those skills.  

 

He could read the story pretty well towards the end, except for his reoccurring problem of missing little words, dropping word endings, occasionally skipping an entire line, problems we think may relate to eye saccadic movements.  Also, he continues to sound choppy/run through periods.

 

I think the reason I am so torn is that I never explicitly learned the 7 syllabification rules and I find so many exceptions to them that I'm not sure how helpful they will be.  High Noon definitely does explicit syllabification and maybe that's okay and I can just explain that they help sometimes.  For example I think the double consonant or marker endings are a great thing to look for to know to try the short/1st sound first.  But as for teaching open/closed, see study below...

 

http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/search/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=ED277985&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=ED277985

 

I really would love a book that systematically focuses on common affixes and word chunks with word lists to practice.  Something harder than Reading Pathways and with as little writing as possible.

[beishan]

My son is 8 and we just started DB c. My son has same problem of dropping ending sounds but improves gradually. However, reading specialist at school does allow him to move up reading level due to this particular bad habbit. He is upset that his reading level still cannot move up after he works so hard. I am looking for remedy as well. If he can slow down when reading and uses his finger as an aid, dropping ending sounds situation can be very minimum.

[Lecka]

Beishan -- it helped my son to practice reading aloud, and try to read slowly.  I have read that very short passages or poems can be good.  Also -- you can really mark places you want him to pause.  Some people use a highlighter.  I have seen to make a / for pause and // for longer stop.  I have also seen to draw scoops under a phrase.  This is a fluency kind of thing -- to some extent -- if slowing down would help.  It may not be the same thing as my son -- he would kind of plow through too much.    You might look at a fluency program - -if it might be appropriate for him.  Some programs provide more fluency than others, some provide it at a higher level.  I think my son needed more than an average amount of work on fluency.  

 

Halibecs -- It is NOT a curriculum, but I own a book called something like Phonics for the Intermediate Student (somethng like that -- it is not Phonics A-Z, the one that says 3rd-6th grade on the front) by Wiley Blevins ---- and it absolutely has that.  It has lots of ideas, information, and games.  It has word lists, it has syllable chunks.  I really, really like this book.  

 

He has a workbook kind of book -- I am looking at for this summer.  From the sample, the workbook looks like it is at a higher level than the information from Phonics for an Intermediate Student.  I have been using information from the book for a while.  

 

If you look at the sample of the workbook, he lists the most common syllable chunks.  If you want that list -- it is on the Amazon sample.  In the book there would be ways to practice -- but if you know flashcards are better, or a smaller number of chunks to master at a time, or a certain game, or more chunks at a time, or printing them as a list instead of left-to-right, etc etc etc might go over better, I would say go for it.   

 

 

[Lecka]

Teaching Phonics and Word Study is the book I own.

 

The Week-by-Week one I am looking at getting this summer, possibly.  It looks like it is at a higher level than Teaching Phonics and Word Study, based on the sample.  I don't know anyone who has ever used it, and haven't used it ----- but if you are looking for one where you would learn 10 syllable chunks a week for 35 weeks plus learning some affixes and common roots ------ well that is what it appears to be from the sample.  But I am looking at my son maybe doing this this summer, or maybe next year.  I think I am going to do this or Abecdarian Level C, I am leaning towards Abecedarian Level C ----- but because he did well with Level B, more than b/c I think it looks better.  It looks like it would be a little easier for him than this Week-by-Week ----- I would like him to already know maybe half of the words in the sample before I do it, otherwise I think *he* would get frustrated ---- I think he does better when he is feeling successful, more than when he is feeling challenged ---- but I think that varies a lot.   

 

Also -- I don't get a "this is a full curriculum" vibe from Week-by-Week, at all. I feel like -- it will be a good supplement or extra.  It looks like it is made as a supplement, to some extent.  It still looks very good to me -- I just think, it looks supplemental.  

 

But if you are looking for an "extra" with syllable chunks ----- hey, it is an option.  Maybe even enough for a whole program, if it seems that way! 

[Lecka]

Also -- I hope the eye exercises will help!  

[Pen]

Thanks to you all for your thoughtful input and providing the Dancing Bears C excerpt.  My son was a little rocky through Dancing Bears C.  For example, on one of the last pages, out of 76 words he missed 6: anchor, nephew, character, distraction, aviation, schedule.  But he read caution, foundation, partition, chemistry, conversation etc. There were 2 mastery tests that he should have failed (you were only allowed one mistake on whole page and he made two), but I let him keep going and just kept reviewing those skills.  

 

He could read the story pretty well towards the end, except for his reoccurring problem of missing little words, dropping word endings, occasionally skipping an entire line, problems we think may relate to eye saccadic movements.  Also, he continues to sound choppy/run through periods.

 

I think the reason I am so torn is that I never explicitly learned the 7 syllabification rules and I find so many exceptions to them that I'm not sure how helpful they will be.  High Noon definitely does explicit syllabification and maybe that's okay and I can just explain that they help sometimes.  For example I think the double consonant or marker endings are a great thing to look for to know to try the short/1st sound first.  But as for teaching open/closed, see study below...

 

http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/search/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=ED277985&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=ED277985

 

I really would love a book that systematically focuses on common affixes and word chunks with word lists to practice.  Something harder than Reading Pathways and with as little writing as possible.

 

 

My son is 8 and we just started DB c. My son has same problem of dropping ending sounds but improves gradually. However, reading specialist at school does allow him to move up reading level due to this particular bad habbit. He is upset that his reading level still cannot move up after he works so hard. I am looking for remedy as well. If he can slow down when reading and uses his finger as an aid, dropping ending sounds situation can be very minimum.

 

 

My son had had a vision problem (amblyopia) along with dyslexia and used a finger as an aid as long as that was needed. I still suggest he do that sometimes if there is very tightly packed text. 

 

 

As musicians often do when learning a new piece, my son would start as slowly as needed to get it right, then bring it up to fluency speed for his age/grade.

 

 

 

 

 

My HN is put away now, but I do not recall any great emphasis on rules, rather on practice to achieve automaticity and fluency.  

 

 

We did that going through the HN materials -- I had some of their leveled chapter books up to their grade 2 reading level, but did not use many of those toward the end because he had moved on to regular books --  for him it usually took 3 times through each reader, or reading passage at the end of an HN lesson, to achieve excellent fluency, including reading in a way that the meaning and feeling would come through to a listener.  It was slow going at first, but it got the basics very solid.

 

We then did the same thing on his next stage of reading which was The Magic Tree House. By the end of the year (age 9-10) he had moved to books on his own interest level like Percy Jackson. At that point, most reading had moved to silent, but he still read aloud daily or almost daily to make sure fluency continued to be there--though no longer was it a matter of reading each book aloud 3 times for practice.

 

 

 

 

We also had a game called Syllabification, and played some other word related games such as hangman also sometimes.

 

He was not doing it back then, but I think at this point working with Critical Thinking's Word Roots is also helpful in this. The computer version we have involves mouse clicking and dragging word chunks into position, not much writing needed.

[Pen]

 

He could read the story pretty well towards the end, except for his reoccurring problem of missing little words, dropping word endings, occasionally skipping an entire line, problems we think may relate to eye saccadic movements.  Also, he continues to sound choppy/run through periods.

 

 

 

 

We would have worked on reading the story through, with finger if needed, until it was fluent. 

 

We put the emphasis on the reading of real, though word controlled, passages or stories or books, doing a number of these at each level. Word lists were a tool, but not our destination.

[halibecs]

Thanks, I will check out these resources.  We do have a lot of the High Noon chapter books and we are practicing with them. r is resistant about doing repeated readings, but I am getting him to pick one paragraph to perfect.  Baby steps :)

 

[LaughingCat]

He could read the story pretty well towards the end, except for his reoccurring problem of missing little words, dropping word endings, occasionally skipping an entire line, problems we think may relate to eye saccadic movements.  Also, he continues to sound choppy/run through periods.

I really would love a book that systematically focuses on common affixes and word chunks with word lists to practice.  Something harder than Reading Pathways and with as little writing as possible.

 

Rewards fits the criteria of affixes and word chunks with word lists to practice.  It also address syllabification without resort to rules (they call it 'words sounds' since the word may be split in a non true syllable way).   However, I have to say that, even though Rewards Secondary greatly improved my DD's multi-syllable (3+ syllables) word attack, it did not improve any of the problems you state above (missing little words, dropping word endings, occasionally skipping an entire line) - nor did the VT we just did either even though she did get a significant improvement in speed from it. 

 

As her reading has improved, she has improved on those issues on easy reading though - so my current plan is to try to push her instructional level higher, hoping it will pull her independent level up.  And we'll continue to practice her VT exercises and rhythm work (not at the metronome level yet).

[Pen]

"Thanks, I will check out these resources.  We do have a lot of the High Noon chapter books and we are practicing with them. r is resistant about doing repeated readings, but I am getting him to pick one paragraph to perfect.  Baby steps  :)"

 

I am not sure you need any new program at all, rather to work toward automaticity and fluency with what you do have.

 

Perhaps you could help him through his resistance by analogy to an actor learning how to do lines and actions for a play and doing it over and over, or perhaps to a musician learning music, or perhaps to an athlete practicing each aspect of a sport until each aspect is second nature, and then putting together the many parts till the whole of the sport is automatic and fluent. That is what is needed for reading well too.

 

New materials  may make it more shiny, but nothing will substitute for practice, practice, practice.

[LaughingCat]

We've done a lot of repeated reading here - because it is what is supposed to improve fluency.  DD's fluency for that passage improves each time she reads it - she stops missing words/endings, repeating phrases, losing her place and she speeds up.  That does not translate to any difference when reading a new passage however. (We've done this for 6+ months at a time - because it is the accepted wisdom for increasing fluency)

 

Rewards did make some difference in fluency, because it stopped her missing the longer words that previously would have caused guessing and/or extended pauses while looking at the word only to end up missing it in the end anyway.  It replaced that with a short pause and correct sounding out the word. 

 

VT picked up her speed - from ~ 60 wpm reading at grade level to above 100 wpm. Note: grade level is not her 'independent' reading level, because she still skipping or replacing small words (a for the and vice versa) and missing or changing endings, causing her to miss more than 5 words per 100.

 

The combo of these two this summer/fall has gotten DD to the point where she finally moved from reading (a very few) 3rd grade level books on her own to reading Geronimo (and Thea) Stilton books on her own. 

 

We are just reading passages/books out loud right now - but I make sure to remind her of the Rewards 'strategy' of how to sound out words.  So I consider it still 'Rewards' practice. And we'll be doing the Science/Social Studies extra books mixed in with easier material to keep it in the forefront.   Because I don't think, based on the past experience, that practice reading alone will get her to the next level. 

 

So along those same lines, I am still looking for a 'program' that will help with the skipping/losing place.  So far, the materials the VT gave us to work with tracking have not helped.  I have some hopes for doing her near-far activities using actual reading material instead of random letters/words though (forget where I saw that suggestion), so we're doing that as part of her VT exercises.   And I may have to make up something that uses 'a' and 'the', the worst offenders, in a manner where it actually  matters which you say.

 

Anyway, just to say that getting to a certain 'level' (able to read DB C for example or High Noon books) followed by lots of practice hasn't been enough to catapult my DD to being a fluent reader

 

 

[FairProspects]

Rewards fits the criteria of affixes and word chunks with word lists to practice.  It also address syllabification without resort to rules (they call it 'words sounds' since the word may be split in a non true syllable way).   However, I have to say that, even though Rewards Secondary greatly improved my DD's multi-syllable (3+ syllables) word attack, it did not improve any of the problems you state above (missing little words, dropping word endings, occasionally skipping an entire line) - nor did the VT we just did either even though she did get a significant improvement in speed from it. 

 

As her reading has improved, she has improved on those issues on easy reading though - so my current plan is to try to push her instructional level higher, hoping it will pull her independent level up.  And we'll continue to practice her VT exercises and rhythm work (not at the metronome level yet).

 

This was exactly our experience with Rewards. It was like ds needed an entire system upgrade to overcome those other issues, and that upgrade could only come with repeated readings for fluency and time/development. We did not need the VT or have as many issues losing place or anything like that.

[ElizabethB]

Over half of those missed words are from Greek. I would watch my online phonics lesson 27 and then work on the Greek words in Marcia Henry's Words, although the entire program might actually be a good fit, it teaches spelling and syllable division within each language of origin. The samples are from early on, it eventually has high school level words, although it says 3rd to 8th grade.

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/Phonics%20Lsns/phonicslsnslinks.html

 

http://www.proedinc.com/customer/productView.aspx?ID=989

 

Within each language of origin, the syllable division rules are constant.

[Pen]

I came back because an important addition to my "practice" comment from before was going through my mind. 

 

 

 

 

"Practice makes perfect" is not actually true.

 

 

 

Practice tends to make permanent.

 

Therefore, practicing mistakes can make them permanent.

 

Which may be part of what is happening with a frequent "a" versus "the" confusion.

 

It takes more time and repetitions to unlearn an old wrong way of doing something and learn a new one to replace it,

than to learn a new one correctly in the first place.

 

Perfect practice, and perfect practice that keeps gradually, progressively, getting more difficult, is what, in my experience, makes perfect. Or at least makes very good to excellent.

[LaughingCat]

I equate the a/the thing to math facts - if I waited until DD could get math facts perfectly (i.e. no 'wrong' practice allowed) we would still be back in 2nd grade math doing addition.  

 

OTH going on in math has not stopped me from having her practice her facts.  I would love to find a way to 'practice' the a/the thing - separate from other reading ability.   

 

[Lecka]

Laughing Cat -- I was thinking about this.  My son got better with the little words and endings (ing) when he started to self-correct.  Self-correcting is a BIG deal for him, he did not do it for a long time.

 

He can only do it when he is reading at his "independent level," though.  That is because -- he has to really be understanding what he is reading as he reads it, he has to be able to feel like he can go back without getting too lost and having to re-do everything.  Like -- if he has to re-read and it is painful, he will not re-read.  If he can re-read easily, he will re-read to self-correct. 

 

So it does really only happen at his "independent level."  But as he started self-correcting, he started to do it less. 

 

His "independent level" has been slowly improving, without me doing much but having him practice and showing him or teaching him about some words as they come up (how we have done some prefixes and suffixes). 

 

So it is not like he is done, but I think he is in a good place. 

 

Also -- I think that self-corrections do not count as errors. 

 

And then -- this is very circular, but I consider "missing 5 words on a page" to be "instructional level" and that means he does need some support.  So it is normal to me for him to miss some words or make some mistakes at his "instructional level."  I just consider it -- this is his instructional level.  I am okay with it. 

 

That is just how I look at it, if that makes sense.  I am not looking at "no errors ever," I am looking for a level where he can do very well, that is a lower level, but by now ---- solidly 2nd grade and even solidly 3rd grade.  And then an instructional level where he is still making errors, but I am optimistic that if we just keep practicing eventually he will get it at that level too, and be able to move up.

 

At this point -- I don't think he is ever going to "make a leap" or ever make progress without a lot of practice.  That is just how it is.  But -- now the practice is not bad, it is possible to move him up very gradually in his level, etc.  Edit:  I mean, I expect to be doing fluency with him for years.  At least 3 more years.  Hopefully a little on the casual side, not more than 15-20 minutes a day during the school year, but still, I don't see a point in the near future where he would not need it. 

 

Also -- I was looking back at my Wiley Blevins Intermediate Phonics that I do think is so good..... it did agree that kids make most progress with work at their instructional level..... but defines instructional level as 5 mistakes a page (I think) or 90% correct.  Below 90% it says there is too much breakdown in comprehension (I would guess -- b/c of it just being too slow and labored to keep track of what has been read -- based on my son I assume this, it was not stated).  So that is what that books says.  I think it agrees with the website you mentioned a little while ago.  It says " a student reads with teacher guidance and is challenged enough to continue reading growth.  Comprehension should average 75% or better, and word recognition should average 90% or better." 

 

For frustration level:  "the student cannot read a text adequately.  At this level the student frequently shows signs of discomfort.  Comprehension average 50% or less, and word recognition averages less than 90%". 

 

Edit:  I am not sure I see "practicing errors" with him.  I see more of a "breakdown in the reading process."  I think he needs to practice reading correctly, for sure.  And I think he could get bad habits and regress if he read too much in his "breakdown" mode.  So it is like practicing errors, I just think of it a little differently. 

 

He is missing words in math problems, that "in theory" he should really be able to read etc etc.  I don't know what to do about that right now ---- I have got a lot of things to try.  But they have moved on to a new math unit that he is doing just fine with.  I have no idea, but I have some ideas to try. 

 

Also -- he does not miss many words at all when he is reading at a lower level, but I think it could be that he has some strength or non-weakness making that possible.  I think different kids have different things that are more difficult or less difficult for them.  That is just what I see with my son. 

[LaughingCat]

I think we are reading longer pages than you Lecka :)   However you are right that independent reading level is 98% or better, not 95%. 95% is the generally accepted instructional level.  I have even seen 99% or 100% for independent level.

 

Here is an example of DD's reading - the NRRF test reading passage section last August (had just started Rewards),:

1 - 53 words in the passage, skipped the word 'the'   = 98% correct

2- all correct

3- 50 words in the passage, skipped the word 'the' = 98% correct 

4 - 52 words, missed 'immense'  98%  (note - if she had skipped an 'a' or 'the' in this passage as well, she would have been over the 98% and it could easily have happened)

5- 53 words, missed proportion and haunch = 96%

6 - 58 words in passage, skipped the words 'a' and 'the', and missed 'plowman' twice  = 94% correct 

For the last passage, she worked out 'plowman' the first time, but read 'plow' as rhyming with row instead of cow, and then read it the same way quickly the 2nd time.  The 'the' was in front of the first plowman, skipped due to focusing on the hard word IMO.   The 'a' was just a general skip, as happens even in the 1st grade level as seen above.

 

100% right every time would have me working with her at the 1st grade level until perfection is reached - since due to the skipping of small words she can't do that even at the first grade level.  Even 98% right would keep her down at the 3rd grade level - because in regular reading (unlike the 4 passage) she does skip small words mixed in.   Yet, if you only count words she did not know how to read, rather than small word skips, she is above 6th grade for instructional level (and also based on other tests I've done).  This is why I compare it to math facts.

 

[complete side note: plowman! that one just kills me.  She read it phonetically correctly and it counted against her twice!]

[Pen]

Instructional level for us (told by reading specialist, not my own idea), 5-8 words per page unknown. And not different if the pages were longer, since one would want to adjust amount of text per page to what fit the 5-8 words as part of the text difficulty.

 

But in our case, we did go to where the material had become 100% at a level, or very close to that, before moving to the next level with once again, 5-8 words unknown. Not just that the books already read and reread could be done at 100%, but that another book saved from that level and not yet tried could be read the first time through at or close to 100%.

 

That is, it was not 100% at the start, but it was 100% before upping the difficulty another notch, in terms of text reading. In terms of HN Intervention program I followed its own rules about when to move on and when to redo a lesson.

 

And it is correct that self-corrections do not count as errors.

 

 

I was not dealing with a tween who could read at 6th grade level but for small word skips. I was dealing with a 9 year old who when we started HN could not read at all, despite 3 years of Headstart, and 3 years of brick and mortar regular schools, and one year homeschooling with other phonics and etc. reading programs.

 

 If I had a tween reading at 6th grade level over all, but still making some word skips and small word errors, I might be trying different approaches.  Including, because I do think that practice of wrong thing makes it permanent, I would probably read the small words in a passage aloud myself until they were figured out via some other approach.

 

Or maybe at some point I would even accept that reading could be functional enough for life needs, and let the inability to do the little words go. But I would surely try a bunch of tactics to try to deal with that before giving up on it.

 

 

[Pen]

...

Also -- I think that self-corrections do not count as errors. 

 

 

Right

 

And then -- this is very circular, but I consider "missing 5 words on a page" to be "instructional level" and that means he does need some support.  So it is normal to me for him to miss some words or make some mistakes at his "instructional level."  I just consider it -- this is his instructional level.  I am okay with it. 

 

Yes. But are you correcting them as he goes? And perhaps also working on them more later outside of the text?  That way it is at instructional level, and you are instructing, not practicing the mistakes.

 

That is just how I look at it, if that makes sense.  I am not looking at "no errors ever," I am looking for a level where he can do very well, that is a lower level, but by now ---- solidly 2nd grade and even solidly 3rd grade.  And then an instructional level where he is still making errors, but I am optimistic that if we just keep practicing eventually he will get it at that level too, and be able to move up.

 

...

[beishan]

Instructional level for us (told by reading specialist, not my own idea), 5-8 words per page unknown.

 

In my son's school, he has to reach 98% accuracy for independent reading level and 95% for instruction level. For early levels, each book has less than 100 words in it. That means you cannot skip or misread for more than 2 words in the whole book.

 

My son recently told me that he is assigned two reading buckets at school. He reads at beginning 2nd grade level (his true reading level) in classroom while reading 3 levels down when he works with reading specialist in pull out session. He also had issue for skipping little words and dropping some ending sounds (-s/-es/-d/-ed). At home, his tutor (also a reading specialist) encourages him to use finger as aide and slow him down when doing guided reading. She said it helps a lot to bring up his accuracy. She knows that he is capable to read more difficult passage so she is pushing him along to harder works. They have been reading chapter books since beginning of 2nd grade when my son was tested as mid first grade reading level at school. My son now complains that the assigned readers in school too easy and boring but teacher does not allow him to read chapter books because he still often miss the ending sounds.

[Pen]

In my son's school, he has to reach 98% accuracy for independent reading level and 95% for instruction level. For early levels, each book has less than 100 words in it. That means you cannot skip or misread for more than 2 words in the whole book.

 

My son recently told me that he is assigned two reading buckets at school. He reads at beginning 2nd grade level (his true reading level) in classroom while reading 3 levels down when he works with reading specialist in pull out session. He also had issue for skipping little words and dropping some ending sounds (-s/-es/-d/-ed). At home, his tutor (also a reading specialist) encourages him to use finger as aide and slow him down when doing guided reading. She said it helps a lot to bring up his accuracy. She knows that he is capable to read more difficult passage so she is pushing him along to harder works. They have been reading chapter books since beginning of 2nd grade when my son was tested as mid first grade reading level at school. My son now complains that the assigned readers in school too easy and boring but teacher does not allow him to read chapter books because he still often miss the ending sounds.

 

 

Obviously the 5-8 words per page rule of thumb is not going to work well if there are so few total words that it would become silly.

 

It is always hard when interest level and reading level do not match, but maybe working on those endings and so on, can be an incentive for moving to more interesting books. Or maybe he can do more interesting books with his home tutor.

[beishan]

 

It is always hard when interest level and reading level do not match, but maybe working on those endings and so on, can be an incentive for moving to more interesting books. Or maybe he can do more interesting books with his home tutor.

 

Yes, that's what I told him. If he can try his best to read all ending sounds and try not to skip the littel words, he can move up to higer level bucket that containing chapter books. His tutor has been working on books with his interest level even though some books (DK eyewitness series) are beyond his instructional reading level at this moment. But overall, I am happy that he finally has motivation to read chapter books now. I remebered he fight with his tutor and cried in September because she pushed him to read 1 chapter of magic tree house.

[LaughingCat]

 If I had a tween reading at 6th grade level over all, but still making some word skips and small word errors, I might be trying different approaches.  Including, because I do think that practice of wrong thing makes it permanent, I would probably read the small words in a passage aloud myself until they were figured out via some other approach.

 

Or maybe at some point I would even accept that reading could be functional enough for life needs, and let the inability to do the little words go. But I would surely try a bunch of tactics to try to deal with that before giving up on it.

 

My DD is definitely not functional enough for life needs even if it sounds that way (and actually that test shows her independent reading level as 4th grade - not 6th grade).    The issues that are not just 'ability to read a word' add up - skip/replace small words (a/the/on),  skip/replace word endings (s/ed/ing),  'stuttering' (repeat words or phrases multiple times sounding like she is stuttering),  skipping a line, fixing mistakes, stamina.  On a bad day, it is actually painful to listen to her read.     After Rewards Secondary, her 'ability to read a word' is finally up to grade level - but that didn't make any of these other things go away at that level.

 

And I am not starting at this just now-- I have been working with her since figuring out during 2nd grade that reading was an issue. During that time I have spent a lot of time working the 'traditional' way - 100% correction at a level that is just at/above where she is making 2 or less mistakes/100 words.   We did it a lot - because it is the conventional wisdom.  Along with a lot of repeated readings - also conventional wisdom.   That is my contention - that that type of work has never helped DD.

 

OTOH, Rewards Secondary actually jumped her actual 'word reading ability' (as separate from her tracking or skipping) TO the level it is at (from about a 4th grade level) in about 3 months.   LIPS affected her jumbling of letters/sounds within words - both verbally and when reading - also in a short time.   DB improved both her guessing habit and short word attack (wasn't worried about longer word attack back then lol!).  VT improved her speed and stamina.  Specific programs affecting specific issues.

 

Note: in some ways, beishan's tutor is doing more like what I am doing - pushing the far edge of ability  vs. what the school is doing - keeping him back until he can get all the endings right

[Lecka]

I think the traditional fluency approach does work for my son.  I think maybe he has really common problems and so that is why the common solutions are helpful for him. 

 

I do see him make a lot less mistakes with lower-level materials that are easier for him, and then make more mistakes as the reading level is harder. 

 

I have had a lot of false starts with my son, too, it is so frustrating. 

 

Last year my son was not uncommonly skipping lines and not realizing he had skipped a line.... he would just not notice.  Or, he would notice, but not have a realization "the cause of this not making any sense is that I have skipped a line."  He would just keep reading and seem fatalistic like "eh, reading, this is what it is like, sometimes it just starts not making any sense." 

 

Beishan -- it sounds like he is making progress!  I hope he can get into books he likes more, soon. 

[LaughingCat]

I will say DD does catch her line skips by context when the material is easier and not when it is hard (I assume due to too much working memory used up by processing the decoding) - but why does she skip at all?  What is it you do when you keep track of which line you are on and where the next one is vs. losing your spot?

 

To work on this, the best I have seen is some materials with 2 lines of numbers working their way farther apart (PACE - they use a metronome to increase difficulty though), and I have done a little bit with near far reading (forcing her to find her place each time from one line to the next).  The materials the VT place gave us seem more like just practice regular reading only even easier than reading (numbers/letters instead of words).

 

Also if she gets distracted (usually little sis) during reading, I let her find her spot again on her own. Not quite the same but similar I think.

[Pen]

Yes, that's what I told him. If he can try his best to read all ending sounds and try not to skip the littel words, he can move up to higer level bucket that containing chapter books. His tutor has been working on books with his interest level even though some books (DK eyewitness series) are beyond his instructional reading level at this moment. But overall, I am happy that he finally has motivation to read chapter books now. I remebered he fight with his tutor and cried in September because she pushed him to read 1 chapter of magic tree house.

 

 

You may be able to use his current interest/motivation to do more. Some children learn to read when they are finally motivated by something they really really really want to read (though my son really wanted to -- and just could not do it no matter how much he wanted, so that is certainly not always the case...but I do personally know people who have so badly wanted to read something that they managed with help to make the leap to that level successfully).

 

Some extra work on it might be able to be done with something he himself chooses, and if you are not able to check his English well enough, some children are helped by having an audio book and following along in written text. There are also some computer programs set up along those lines.

 

 

 

My DD is definitely not functional enough for life needs even if it sounds that way (and actually that test shows her independent reading level as 4th grade - not 6th grade).    The issues that are not just 'ability to read a word' add up - skip/replace small words (a/the/on),  skip/replace word endings (s/ed/ing),  'stuttering' (repeat words or phrases multiple times sounding like she is stuttering),  skipping a line, fixing mistakes, stamina.  On a bad day, it is actually painful to listen to her read.     After Rewards Secondary, her 'ability to read a word' is finally up to grade level - but that didn't make any of these other things go away at that level.

 

And I am not starting at this just now-- I have been working with her since figuring out during 2nd grade that reading was an issue. During that time I have spent a lot of time working the 'traditional' way - 100% correction at a level that is just at/above where she is making 2 or less mistakes/100 words.   We did it a lot - because it is the conventional wisdom.  Along with a lot of repeated readings - also conventional wisdom.   That is my contention - that that type of work has never helped DD.

 

OTOH, Rewards Secondary actually jumped her actual 'word reading ability' (as separate from her tracking or skipping) TO the level it is at (from about a 4th grade level) in about 3 months.   LIPS affected her jumbling of letters/sounds within words - both verbally and when reading - also in a short time.   DB improved both her guessing habit and short word attack (wasn't worried about longer word attack back then lol!).  VT improved her speed and stamina.  Specific programs affecting specific issues.

 

Note: in some ways, beishan's tutor is doing more like what I am doing - pushing the far edge of ability  vs. what the school is doing - keeping him back until he can get all the endings right

 

 

 

I think in Beishan's son's case, it is good that he gets both types of work at once, plus the regular class work.

 

A pull out would not be able to push him to the far edge of ability since that would be at his grade level, I believe, and they generally only do pull-outs when work is below grade level by a certain amount. But having that very precise requirement in the pull-out may help prevent a later stealth problem creeping in on him, and at least gives extra practice as long as the school is willing to give it and the child to do it.

 

At the same time, his home tutor can more freely try a variety of other approaches with him.

 

 

There may be something to say for a multi-method approach!!!

 

Also, clearly, different children have different things going on that can affect reading and thus it makes sense that different approaches will be better for some than for others.

[Pen]

I will say DD does catch her line skips by context when the material is easier and not when it is hard (I assume due to too much working memory used up by processing the decoding) - but why does she skip at all?  What is it you do when you keep track of which line you are on and where the next one is vs. losing your spot?

 

To work on this, the best I have seen is some materials with 2 lines of numbers working their way farther apart (PACE - they use a metronome to increase difficulty though), and I have done a little bit with near far reading (forcing her to find her place each time from one line to the next).  The materials the VT place gave us seem more like just practice regular reading only even easier than reading (numbers/letters instead of words).

 

Also if she gets distracted (usually little sis) during reading, I let her find her spot again on her own. Not quite the same but similar I think.

 

I understand that she is reluctant to use a finger, but if she did run a finger along for horizontal spot, and perhaps also her thumb moving to keep the vertical spot, can she do it?

 

I have a hard time keeping my place if material is hard and dense all at the same time--particularly since a head injury--and I use whatever helps me like a finger as needed.

[Lecka]

/just commenting

 

Before my son had OT, he was not coordinated enough to hold a book open and keep track with his finger at the same time. 

 

Since he has had OT he uses his finger as needed, on his own. 

 

It is so nice that he can do it, but sometimes it is just like -- maybe they can read or follow along with the finger, but not both.  It seemed like that for my son.  It was not easy like it would seem to be -- it was not automatic for him to be able to manipulate his finger or a bookmark used as a place holder. 

 

I think my son was skipping b/c of trouble crossing the midline.  He also used to skip when there was a paragraph --- the indentation made that line invisible to him a lot of the time. 

 

I don't have a definite answer on that, though.  He could have just had it come together for him, or it could be the OT (really I think it was the OT -- he also learned to skip at age 8 -- that is not a coincidence). 

 

But there is no way you would go through VT and not know about "crossing the midline if she had issues there." 

 

I do see him using his side finger to track down the page and keep track that way, when he is reading denser things, too.  It is really helpful! 

[SonshineMama]

Thanks I figured.  Anyone have a used set they want to sell?  Having trouble finding the right teacher's manual except through the publisher.

If you are still looking, I will be done with the teachers manual by next week.  My ds is very close to done and it's been a great match for him :)  

 

I am moving onto Reading Assistant for him next :)