Sensitive topic: just a curious kid? UPDATE: Follow-up question in post 27

[Janie Grace]

I wanted to clarify -- he doesn't wear underwear EVER because of the er*ction issue. This wasn't related to bedtime wear (or lack thereof). She also mentioned that he often holds his hands in front of himself to hide the er*ction and complains that it hurts. I have boys and I know that they get them occasionally from infancy onwards (and more frequently as puberty starts) but I don't know what to make of what she has shared about her son's experience. 

[Ottakee]

If this is all that is making you hesitate to report then you need to know that yes, yes, YES it does happen. Society mostly only talks about men touching little girls, and sometimes boys. But I have a close friend who's mother abused her sexually whenever her father was away (he was a pilot) and I have a male friend who's mother went 'all the way', so to speak, in crossing that line when he was 8 and it continued for many years thereafter.

 

In many ways, being abused by a woman, especially a mother, is SO much worse for the victim because it's not socially accepted. People joke that the boys were 'lucky' for someone with 'experience' to show them. People don't believe that teenage boys are actually unwilling parties (through manipulation, not force). The psychology of it is seriously complicated, but these boys often suffer worse than girls abused by fathers (not that abuse should be rated, but with the dismissal society tends to place on it, and it's focus on female sexual abuse victims, I feel it needs to be stated how serious male victim sexual abuse is)

 

I am still not saying that this woman is sexually abusing her son. But please, look at what you are seeing and hearing with the knowledge that it is a very real thing which happens.

 

Sad to say as a foster parent, we have seen things like this as well.

 

If nothing else, this mother sounds like she needs some classes on parenting and setting boundaries, etc.  While I am not anti cosleeping in this case I think that the child should be in his own bed or pallet on the floor rather than in bed with mom in various stages of undress.
 

[Guest submarines]

 

I will say that both the mother and father of this boy do NOT teach boundaries. They have to coerce him into doing what they want -- there is no sense of "no, because it's not appropriate" or "yes, because I said so" in these parenting relationships. 

 

 

Could you elaborate on this? They have to coerce him, but they don't have the concept of "yes/no because I said so?"
 

[Joanne]

OP, this child is being sexually abused. Even if what you describe she reported is the extent of it, it is abuse.

I am very casual about nudity and co-sleeping (at least for the US). And what you describe is very abnormal. That she'd mention it demonstrates an abnormal engagement with sex, bodies, sexuality. There is NO reason for her to mention her son's erections (which, at 6, happen but frequent and needing to be naked?????) and for her to go topless with with him naked in the same bed is absurdly, alarmingly over the line.

Report this family and stay away.

[Janie Grace]

To me it sounds more like she is treating him as an infant/toddler, rather than sexualizing him on purpose.

It also sounds like she lacks any "healthy" baseline ideas... She doesn't know if this is wrong or not, and I think she is trying the manoeuvre known as, "Casually reveal it to someone and see if they are shocked." -- I think she chose you because you had already talked about little boy issues, and she probably doesn't have a lot of choices.

Therefore, I think if you have a chance to say, "Really? I think he's way too old for that. It's probably time for having clothing between you, and I think he needs you to take a firm line about daily underwear. I don't think you are doing him any favours by letting him have his own way with this. Time for him to grow up." -- Something like that is probably the sort of support she is looking for, raising a boy with no one to check-in with about these personal issues.

She has no frame if reference. I think she is looking for one. Maybe there is some documentation you could share?

This really resonates. Thank you. I am going to follow up with her in a "you know, I was thinking about what you said" kind of way. I do think she respects me as a mother as she has point-blank asked me about stuff before (and hinted about having me homeschool her kid!). But she's a very strong personality and I have a hard time interjecting my frank disagreement in the moment. I do think I can revisit it, though. 

[TianXiaXueXiao]

Since there seems to be some lack of clarity regarding what constitutes sexual abuse, I would urge you to get in touch with a licensed clinical social worker with expertise in sexual abuse in order to get a definitive understanding of how to label this behavior. I would also encourage you to tell the lcsw everything that you have relayed here in this thread. Peace and goodwill to you.

[aggieamy]

So, the mom and I were chatting today and she casually mentioned that this child sleeps in her bed every night (single mom, so it's just two of them in bed). She was laughing about how "touchy-feely" he is and how he always wants her to be shirtless so that they can snuggle skin-to-skin (he sleeps naked too). I am not sure if they are completely nude or not -- maybe it's just shirtless. I might be a total prude, but does it strike you as odd that a 6-year-old boy would sleep (partly) naked with his (partly) naked mom?

 

She also shared that he doesn't wear underwear because he gets er*ctions frequently and the fabric bothers him.

 

I just wanted to add these two pieces of information to my previous inquiry to see if it changes anyone's impression of this situation.

 

Sometimes I change stuff up a bit to see if it sounds odd ...

 

So, the DAD and I were chatting today and HE casually mentioned that this child sleeps in HIS bed every night (single DAD, so it's just two of them in bed). He was laughing about how "touchy-feely" HIS DAUGHTER is and how SHE always wants HIM to be shirtless so that they can snuggle skin-to-skin (SHE sleeps naked too). I am not sure if they are completely nude or not -- maybe it's just shirtless. I might be a total prude, but does it strike you as odd that a 6-year-old GIRL would sleep (partly) naked with HER (partly) naked DAD?

 

 

I know it's not completely even trade off but if it was a little girl and her single dad it would be weird as hell.  I think the mom/son thing is weird too.   :crying:  

[Janie Grace]

OP, she said that her son is asking her to sleep topless. Did she say how she dealt with this? Did she oblige? I don't think asking is a problem, but her sleeping topless just because he asked could be a problem.

 

I think it is quite normal for kids not to wear underwear. It came up in several conversations with different friends (not discussing erections, mind you!) so I know my DD and DS are not the only ones who go commando 80% of the time.

 

I'm not sure how common are erections in a 6yo...I only observed it once in DS, but he is not a "penis oriented" kid either. Some are, and it could be quite normal as well.

 

Also, if you find yourself to be anti-nudity, you might not be reacting objectively to what she shared.

Yes, she obliges. Every night.

 

I agree -- I have one kid who goes commando because he forgets/doesn't care. Not an issue for me (much, except that I don't want him to be embarrassed if his pants are falling down a bit and other kids see his crack). I just thought it was odd for a kid that age to have such frequent erections. 

 

I'm not anti-nudity (not sure what that means). I did have parents who would be nude in front of me beyond the age where I was comfortable with it, but I didn't know how to express this. So I guess I am pro "parents should not assume that extended nudity is fine because it suits them."

[Momof3]

Since there seems to be some lack of clarity regarding what constitutes sexual abuse, I would urge you to get in touch with a licensed clinical social worker with expertise in sexual abuse in order to get a definitive understanding of how to label this behavior. I would also encourage you to tell the lcsw everything that you have relayed here in this thread. Peace and goodwill to you.

:iagree:

[Janie Grace]

Since there seems to be some lack of clarity regarding what constitutes sexual abuse, I would urge you to get in touch with a licensed clinical social worker with expertise in sexual abuse in order to get a definitive understanding of how to label this behavior. I would also encourage you to tell the lcsw everything that you have relayed here in this thread. Peace and goodwill to you.

Thanks, this sounds like good advice. Would someone like this be a "mandatory reporter"? 

[Janie Grace]

Could you elaborate on this? They have to coerce him, but they don't have the concept of "yes/no because I said so?"
 

What I mean is that they don't have the kind of relationship where a parent can say "____, time to go" and he listens to them. EVER. There is always wheedling, bribery, distraction, and other ploys to get him to do what they want.

[Guest submarines]

Yes, she obliges. Every night.

 

I agree -- I have one kid who goes commando because he forgets/doesn't care. Not an issue for me (much, except that I don't want him to be embarrassed if his pants are falling down a bit and other kids see his crack). I just thought it was odd for a kid that age to have such frequent erections. 

 

I'm not anti-nudity (not sure what that means). I did have parents who would be nude in front of me beyond the age where I was comfortable with it, but I didn't know how to express this. So I guess I am pro "parents should not assume that extended nudity is fine because it suits them."

 

I'd find the obliging quite odd. However I also agree with bolt. that she could quite possibly seeing him as a younger child, with no point of reference. I remember how huge my 5yo suddenly looked when I had a newborn. It was like he moved from "baby" to a big kid overnight. My youngest is 6, and she feels younger to me, than her siblings were at 6, even if she is probably more mature in other respects. What I'm trying to say is that I wouldn't extrapolate inappropriate sexuality right away. It is great that she looks up to you.

 

I hope you don't feel I was picking on you, I was just trying to provide other view points, to hopefully provide some clarity.

[bolt.]

If you want to have something like a "neutral resource" in hand to approach her with, this is a good pdf (from the province of Prince Edward Island, Canada) that focuses on how to tell when a sexual behaviour is "normal" (if inappropriate) and when it is "of concern" or worse. (Usually 'the line' is how frequent or persistent the child is... or how graphic -- it's also meant to help identify behaviours that are red flags for abuse). It also has clear delineation between age groups preschoolers vs. K to grade 4 kids... letting her know about the change in stage of development that she might have missed.

 

http://www.gov.pe.ca/photos/original/CSA_Healthy.pdf

 

There was a bit of hooplah when this came out because people didn't get the "normal for some kids, even though it's inappropriate and needs dealing-with" part and thought the implication was, "normal" meaning "encouraged and wonderful,the best things for all kids to be doing"... That's how I found out about it. I think it's great though.

[Janie Grace]

OP, this child is being sexually abused. Even if what you describe she reported is the extent of it, it is abuse.

I am very casual about nudity and co-sleeping (at least for the US). And what you describe is very abnormal. That she'd mention it demonstrates an abnormal engagement with sex, bodies, sexuality. There is NO reason for her to mention her son's erections (which, at 6, happen but frequent and needing to be naked?????) and for her to go topless with with him naked in the same bed is absurdly, alarmingly over the line.

Report this family and stay away.

Thanks. PM'ed you, Joanne. 

[Kathryn]

This is all kinds of wrong. I honestly don't know what I'd do in your situation.

[Janie Grace]

I'd find the obliging quite odd. However I also agree with bolt. that she could quite possibly seeing him as a younger child, with no point of reference. I remember how huge my 5yo suddenly looked when I had a newborn. It was like he moved from "baby" to a big kid overnight. My youngest is 6, and she feels younger to me, than her siblings were at 6, even if she is probably more mature in other respects. What I'm trying to say is that I wouldn't extrapolate inappropriate sexuality right away. It is great that she looks up to you.

 

I hope you don't feel I was picking on you, I was just trying to provide other view points, to hopefully provide some clarity.

Yes, I agree with bolt. on that, too.

 

No, I know you weren't picking on me. It's an emotional issue. Your comment about my possibly being "anti-nudity, so not objective" did ruffle me a bit, but I understand what you are getting at.

[Cz mama]

I would strictly not allow any play dates at there house, & only very supervised under your care. In the mean time, it would be good to keep an open ear/open convo with the mom to see if she has more to say (which may give you more to stand on in the event that you report anything formal). Although this is very difficult, its so important that someone is keeping their eyes open for this kiddo.

[abba12]

This is a highly inappropriate and unsubstantiated and egregious claim.

 

No, it is a statistically accurate (as far as any statistics on sexual abuse can be accurate) fact.

 

Come on, I am not saying single mums are lonely and thus abuse their sons. Just to clarify before I end up with a bunch of angry single mums after me, in no way am I even beginning to indicate that we should be wary of single mums because they might abuse kids, and I would never direct that sort of thing at someone just because they are a single mum. I'm just saying that, in any experience I have had with it (and I have had a fair bit, including spending times in support groups as a supporter/mentor), it is more likely. It says nothing about single mums, it's just a statistical anomaly, like kids in low income families are more likely to be physically abused, and pedophiles are found in disproportionate numbers among professions like teachers, youth workers and doctors. Having a single mother raises his statistical risk and makes her lack of boundaries more concerning because she has no accountability to anyone else (not saying that she SHOULD have accountability, plenty of amazing parents do not, just saying that the fact she does not would make it easier for something to happen). Having a mum and a dad in the bed with a naked child would change the situation somewhat, because we would either have to assume things are ok, or that both parents are involved. It's the same reason we have rules which do not allow an adult alone with a child without a second adult present.

 

Women don't abuse for the same reasons as men, the psychology is different. Even in the reasons which are common to both sexes, control for example, the reasons for the control and what control means and looks like are very different. Some of the biggest reasons for mothers sexually abusing children are filling an emotional need. Often such women are mentally ill, but even when they're not, an emotional gap being filled by being over-affectionate with a son (or daughter) which eventually results in blurred lines and then outright crossing of lines is a common way this abuse progresses. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen in happily married families, but what has been described so far fits the pattern of over-affectionate actions turning into blurred lines, which may or may not have turned into crossed lines so far, and the mother, so far from the information given, fits the profile. Like it or not there are profiles for this sort of thing, it's why police investigations often use psychologists. 

 

Don't make it personal. I am statistically more likely to abuse my children because I have been abused myself and because I suffer mental illness. I don't find that offensive, nor do I take it personally. Now, it doesn't apply to me personally, I do not and will not abuse my kids, but that doesn't mean the profile is wrong. I'm sorry if you find the idea that, as a single mother, you may be considered in this category offensive or incorrect, but that doesn't make the statistics and case studies wrong. But no one is saying single mums abuse their kids, or saying they should be watched more closely, any more than they are saying we should watch low income families for physical abuse. But the fact is, a number of things said and done so far fit the 'pattern' which has been observed repeatedly from single (and functionally single, btw) mothers who end up looking for a skewed version of affection.

[abba12]

Sometimes I change stuff up a bit to see if it sounds odd ...

 

 

I know it's not completely even trade off but if it was a little girl and her single dad it would be weird as hell.  I think the mom/son thing is weird too.   :crying:  

 

I love that idea for switching it! You're right, it's not an entirely accurate or even trade off, but it would be a great way to communicate it to male victims or to look at warning signs in less common situations like this.

[Annie G]

I'm not saying the behavior is normal, but considering these parents don't have control over their kid, it very well might be the mom is just doing what the kid wants in order to make him do what she wants- which is go to sleep at night. In our culture, we wouldn't think it was weird for a mom to co-sleep with a baby. Or a toddler. But at what point does it become odd? This mom doesn't know. And it became such a habit that the boy enjoyed that why should he change his behavior?  

 

As for not wearing underwear- could that actually be contributing to his issue? If he wears jeans, going commando might make parts rub MORE than when wearing undies. Maybe he likes that feeling. 

 

I think the mom could use a friend who tells her the truth- which is that junior needs to sleep alone and learn some boundaries.  And the boundary learning needs to start with Mom.   If he asked to watch tv all night long or eat candy for breakfast she'd tell him it's not good for him. Neither is sleeping with his topless mother if it's causing him to be overly interested in sexual things that shouldn't interest him for years yet. 

[texasmama]

I agree with Joanne. And my children would not ever have any contact with this family (mom or child) again. Please know that you may not have the entire story from your son.

[Harriet Vane]

I have extensive experience with the child welfare system.

 

This is alarming and yes, it constitutes sexual abuse. Joanne is absolutely correct, and she has the credentials/training to back up her opinion.

 

The very worst thing you can do in this situation is try to investigate on your own or finesse along the relationship in hopes of discovering more or of fixing it yourself.

 

Please, please report this. Immediately. Do not underplay or minimize what was said--report it with utter, factual honesty.

[SeaConquest]

OP, this child is being sexually abused. Even if what you describe she reported is the extent of it, it is abuse.

I am very casual about nudity and co-sleeping (at least for the US). And what you describe is very abnormal. That she'd mention it demonstrates an abnormal engagement with sex, bodies, sexuality. There is NO reason for her to mention her son's erections (which, at 6, happen but frequent and needing to be naked?????) and for her to go topless with with him naked in the same bed is absurdly, alarmingly over the line.

Report this family and stay away.

At what age do you feel the bedroom nudity is inappropriate? I have a 5 year old son who often comes into bed with my husband and I in the middle of the night, and it would never occur to us to put clothes on (we currently live in the tropics). I always thought kids developed modesty on their own for the most part, but this thread has me concerned.

[gardenmom5]

you asked if it changed any minds.  I considered it a red flag from the begining.  you've been advised to report her for her own admission that she thinks is "no big deal" (if that's no big deal - what is a big deal?  kwim?).  report her.  that kid needs rescuing or who knows where he will land as a teen or adult because he has such a mother.  teens can and do molest younger kids - and this kid is being groomed whether the mother means it that way or not.

[gardenmom5]

I wanted to clarify -- he doesn't wear underwear EVER because of the er*ction issue. This wasn't related to bedtime wear (or lack thereof). She also mentioned that he often holds his hands in front of himself to hide the er*ction and complains that it hurts. I have boys and I know that they get them occasionally from infancy onwards (and more frequently as puberty starts) but I don't know what to make of what she has shared about her son's experience. 

 

if he is complaining about it - has she talked with his ped?  has the ped examined him to make sure everything is functioning normally?  has he seen a urologist? 

 

this is not normal - and the mother has serious boundary issues, and shows poor judgment at best.

[Joanne]

No, it is a statistically accurate (as far as any statistics on sexual abuse can be accurate) fact.

 

Come on, I am not saying single mums are lonely and thus abuse their sons. Just to clarify before I end up with a bunch of angry single mums after me, in no way am I even beginning to indicate that we should be wary of single mums because they might abuse kids, and I would never direct that sort of thing at someone just because they are a single mum. I'm just saying that, in any experience I have had with it (and I have had a fair bit, including spending times in support groups as a supporter/mentor), it is more likely. It says nothing about single mums, it's just a statistical anomaly, like kids in low income families are more likely to be physically abused, and pedophiles are found in disproportionate numbers among professions like teachers, youth workers and doctors. Having a single mother raises his statistical risk and makes her lack of boundaries more concerning because she has no accountability to anyone else (not saying that she SHOULD have accountability, plenty of amazing parents do not, just saying that the fact she does not would make it easier for something to happen).

 

 

I call MAJOR BS. There is no research to back up your claim that single moms have a greater percentage of boundary violations.

The only "single mom" statistic I'll give you on sexual abuse is that a boyfriend/stepfather is statistically MUCH more likely to be a sexual abuser. Kinda skews your "2 person accountability" theory.

 

And pedophiles are found in "disproportionate numbers of professions" you list BECAUSE THEY ARE PEDOPHILES AND THAT IS WHERE THE KIDS ARE.

[Joanne]

Once again, OP, even if the mom is merely clueless - it is still sexual abuse. Passive boundaryless on this issue is abuse; the child is given access to an adult female body when firm boundaries are necessary.

 

But it's more than that. This is a very sexualized 6 year old.

[Spryte]

Very disturbing.  On so many levels.  

 

We are (clothed) co-sleepers here so normally hearing that someone has a kid in their bed (even at 6) wouldn't make me blink, but what you've described sounds terribly off.  And when you add in that the boy's actions don't sound healthy (asking to see another boy's privates, hiding those requests, etc)... Too many red flags.  

 

Please don't send your kiddo over there any more.  As for reporting, I defer to Joanne and the others who know better how/to whom.  

[Joanne]

At what age do you feel the bedroom nudity is inappropriate? I have a 5 year old son who often comes into bed with my husband and I in the middle of the night, and it would never occur to us to put clothes on (we currently live in the tropics). I always thought kids developed modesty on their own for the most part, but this thread has me concerned.

 

I believe that bedroom clothes when minors are sleeping in the room  or bed are needed from toddlerhood. (And I nursed my kids and co-slept well beyond that). IIRC, I showered with them as preschoolers.

 

OTOH, "nudity in general", I respect other approaches but I am casual about it. So are my boys, but my dd is not. Therefore the boys respect her wishes, and she "wins" the level of dress standard.

[Alessandra]

This is a huge red flag. I would report this immediately if I were in your shoes. She is testing you out to see if you will hold her accountable. I'm very familiar with sex abuse mentality trying to pass as benign and normal. Please report this admission. She just dropped the responsiblity square in your lap! I'm so sick and sad for this child.

Please, OP. Please don't look the other way on this. What you have described is clearly abuse. Lord have mercy.

Since there seems to be some lack of clarity regarding what constitutes sexual abuse, I would urge you to get in touch with a licensed clinical social worker with expertise in sexual abuse in order to get a definitive understanding of how to label this behavior. I would also encourage you to tell the lcsw everything that you have relayed here in this thread. Peace and goodwill to you.

I agree. And I would not want to take the risk of my child being with this kid, ever again. Thank goodness your dc talks with you, so you know what is happening!

The fact that the mother is sharing this with you sets off alarm bells for me. If you continue the relationship, will she consider it 'implied consent?' Run, and don't look back.

[maize]

I believe that bedroom clothes when minors are sleeping in the room or bed are needed from toddlerhood. (And I nursed my kids and co-slept well beyond that). IIRC, I showered with them as preschoolers.

OTOH, "nudity in general", I respect other approaches but I am casual about it. So are my boys, but my dd is not. Therefore the boys respect her wishes, and she "wins" the level of dress standard.

And yet there are entire cultures in which nudity or near nudity is acceptable at any time. Surely you don't believe all children in those cultures are experiencing abuse?

[Joanne]

And yet there are entire cultures in which nudity or near nudity is acceptable at any time. Surely you don't believe all children in those cultures are experiencing abuse?

 

I am in America, speaking as an American about acceptable, normal, and requires healthy boundaries here.

There are cultures in which the mother uses her mouth on her infant/toddler's penis as a soothing technique. How extreme would you like to go to make your point?

[SeaConquest]

But, Joanne, you said that irrespective of the other red flags, there was abuse. So, this is a bright line rule for you? No showering or sleeping nude with kids after toddlerhood/preschool under any circumstances? Because, I can tell you among my crunchy Southern California crowd back home (we're currently in Puerto Vallarta), my family is not outside the norm. I can understand that not everyone lives this way, but we live on a sailboat. No bath tubs and not much privacy.

[Joanne]

But, Joanne, you said that irrespective of the other red flags, there was abuse. So, this is a bright line rule for you? No showering or sleeping nude with kids after toddlerhood/preschool under any circumstances? Because, I can tell you among my crunchy Southern California crowd back home (we're currently in Puerto Vallarta), my family is not outside the norm. I can understand that not everyone lives this way, but we live on a sailboat. No bath tubs and not much privacy.

On my phone - I think I mentioned showering with kids myself past those ages.

In this case, the nudity it on the request of the child, not a by product of family culture. To answer yes to a child's request of and adult to undress or be topless is abuse.

The rest if the story speaks to him having been abused and severe boundary issues, yes?

[8circles]

On my phone - I think I mentioned showering with kids myself past those ages.

In this case, the nudity it on the request of the child, not a by product of family culture. To answer yes to a child's request of and adult to undress or be topless is abuse.

The rest if the story speaks to him having been abused and severe boundary issues, yes?

Yes, and not just being topless, but topless in order to have the contact while cuddling. Disturbing.

[rmtzc2009]

Having married a man whose mom crossed into unhealthy boundaries this would greatly concern me for both the mom and child involved.  DH mom and him never had a physically inappropriate relationship.  However, emotionally all kinds of boundaries were crossed.  DH was praised as a boy for being there for his mom, her emotional support and her best friend.  I so wish someone would have spoke truth into his mother but I can say without a doubt it wouldn't have helped.  I won't get into the details but I can say that it took a long time for him to really "see" what had happened (a counselor helped) and that he emotionally had filled a husbands role for over 10 years.   It made moving out and our marriage extremely difficult.  We are coming up on being married 11 years and I can say that things are finally starting to look normal in our marriage but we no longer have contact with his mother.  She would be thrilled if we would divorce and her son would move back home and live with her and her dh who takes a backseat.   This mom is crossing boundaries and creating an unhealthy environment for both her son and herself.  She may or may not know any better. But these things usually progress in one way or another as the lines of right/wrong become blurry especially if any type of mental or emotional illness is involved.   My MIL suffers from depression, anxiety and we suspect emotional deficits.   Even if nothing physically inappropriate is happening I do believe emotionally they both are connecting in unhealthy ways. Although I absolutely think a 6 year old asking for and snuggling up to moms naked chest is inappropriate.  And for the mom being so willing to share these type of details is very unusual.  If she says anything else that you find alarming I would not shy away from it but engage the conversation with honest feedback.  And I would not be comfortable with my kids playing with her son.  It only takes one time of crossing a line and the damage is done.  I'll be praying for wisdom for you as you decide how to proceed.  I may consider having a very frank conversation with the mom about my concerns but you really have to trust your gut since you are seeing/hearing info first hand.  I say better to error on the side of protecting a child and be wrong then find out that abuse was happening and you saw the warning signs and didn't report it.

[Melissa in Australia]

At what age do you feel the bedroom nudity is inappropriate? I have a 5 year old son who often comes into bed with my husband and I in the middle of the night, and it would never occur to us to put clothes on (we currently live in the tropics). I always thought kids developed modesty on their own for the most part, but this thread has me concerned.

 

 I would think that children will not learn to be modest UNLESS they are taught it.
 

[FaithManor]

I can't believe that anyone would think this isn't a HUGE problem. Kind of staggers the imagination, but it shows the prejudicial thinking that s*xual abuse and grooming is man on girl or man on boy, but not girl/woman on boy.

 

Let me put it this way, if a six year old girl came to you and said, "I come to daddy's room every night naked and ask him to take off his underwear so I can cuddle him and daddy always takes his underwear off like I ask him to!" You'd be FREAKING OUT! If that same child was caught regularly trying to get your daughter or son to strip down and show off his or her privates, you'd be freaked out.

 

This isn't a case of casual nudity. This is a mom who clearly has NO boundaries and is willing to admit that he requests her to be topless and she complies! He has far more than normal erections with pain and she doesn't seem concerned. He wants to cuddle her chest. Not just sleep in the bed, he demands skin to skin contact with her breasts WELL past the age of weaning.

 

This is not about living in tight proximity and running back and forth from the bathroom to the bedroom in a towel or without. This is not about a parent and young child jumping into the shower to conserve water when the hot water heater is running low, or because of lack of water resources. Taking a quick shower is not a s*xual thing unless the parent or the child it makes it that. This kid is showing the classic signs of s*x abuse.

 

It also doesn't matter two hoots whether this would be normal in Papua New Guinea, or the Amazon, or whatever. Kids are emotionally affected, very negatively, by things that are well beyond the bell curve of normal for their culture. You can't impose one culture over another. Yes, you can learn from each other, but at the end of the day this is a school age child who goes to school in America. While the bell may be more like a half circle/hemisphere for normal, the bottom line is this lies well outside that and if this were a girl/daddy situation, no one would question the need to report this. He is going to grow up and figure out this was WAY cray, cray and abnormal and even if he isn't molested in the sense that many here would consider molestation for boys, he's going to have some damaging self esteem issues.

 

Six year olds telling parents how to dress for bed so they can cuddle said parents privates is not healthy here, period.

 

As for normal, not everything that kids come up with is healthy. They have a lot of "normal" ideas, that doesn't mean we don't correct those ideas for their sake.

 

This mother needs to be reported.

[bolt.]

It is possible that she meant removing her shirt while leaving her bra on.

[maize]

OP, this child is being sexually abused. Even if what you describe she reported is the extent of it, it is abuse.

I am very casual about nudity and co-sleeping (at least for the US). And what you describe is very abnormal. That she'd mention it demonstrates an abnormal engagement with sex, bodies, sexuality. There is NO reason for her to mention her son's erections (which, at 6, happen but frequent and needing to be naked?????) and for her to go topless with with him naked in the same bed is absurdly, alarmingly over the line.

Report this family and stay away.

I believe that bedroom clothes when minors are sleeping in the room or bed are needed from toddlerhood. (And I nursed my kids and co-slept well beyond that). IIRC, I showered with them as preschoolers.

OTOH, "nudity in general", I respect other approaches but I am casual about it. So are my boys, but my dd is not. Therefore the boys respect her wishes, and she "wins" the level of dress standard.

I can't believe that anyone would think this isn't a HUGE problem. Kind of staggers the imagination, but it shows the prejudicial thinking that s*xual abuse and grooming is man on girl or man on boy, but not girl/woman on boy.

Let me put it this way, if a six year old girl came to you and said, "I come to daddy's room every night naked and ask him to take off his underwear so I can cuddle him and daddy always takes his underwear off like I ask him to!" You'd be FREAKING OUT! If that same child was caught regularly trying to get your daughter or son to strip down and show off his or her privates, you'd be freaked out.

This isn't a case of casual nudity. This is a mom who clearly has NO boundaries and is willing to admit that he requests her to be topless and she complies! He has far more than normal erections with pain and she doesn't seem concerned. He wants to cuddle her chest. Not just sleep in the bed, he demands skin to skin contact with her breasts WELL past the age of weaning.

This is not about living in tight proximity and running back and forth from the bathroom to the bedroom in a towel or without. This is not about a parent and young child jumping into the shower to conserve water when the hot water heater is running low, or because of lack of water resources. Taking a quick shower is not a s*xual thing unless the parent or the child it makes it that. This kid is showing the classic signs of s*x abuse.

It also doesn't matter two hoots whether this would be normal in Papua New Guinea, or the Amazon, or whatever. Kids are emotionally affected, very negatively, by things that are well beyond the bell curve of normal for their culture. You can't impose one culture over another. Yes, you can learn from each other, but at the end of the day this is a school age child who goes to school in America. While the bell may be more like a half circle/hemisphere for normal, the bottom line is this lies well outside that and if this were a girl/daddy situation, no one would question the need to report this. He is going to grow up and figure out this was WAY cray, cray and abnormal and even if he isn't molested in the sense that many here would consider molestation for boys, he's going to have some damaging self esteem issues.

Six year olds telling parents how to dress for bed so they can cuddle said parents privates is not healthy here, period.

As for normal, not everything that kids come up with is healthy. They have a lot of "normal" ideas, that doesn't mean we don't correct those ideas for their sake.

This mother needs to be reported.

I haven't said anything about the situation described by the OP, which I agree given everything she has mentioned raises red flags. I disagree with Joanne's assertions that a mother sleeping topless with a naked six year old is, in and of itself, "absurdly, alarmingly over the line" and constitutes abuse. I think it is entirely possible for such a situation to be normal and not alarming within a given family culture.

But then I have a six year old who tells me on a regular basis that she wishes she could still breastfeed...

[FaithManor]

It is possible that she meant removing her shirt while leaving her bra on.

The mother of the child stated that he wanted to cuddle herskin toskin or something to that effect.

[poppy]

At what age do you feel the bedroom nudity is inappropriate? I have a 5 year old son who often comes into bed with my husband and I in the middle of the night, and it would never occur to us to put clothes on (we currently live in the tropics). I always thought kids developed modesty on their own for the most part, but this thread has me concerned.

 

I absolutely think modesty comes with age, and I think it's pretty normal to wait until either the child's comfort level or the parent's comfort level dictates clothing in bed.  

 

My husband sleeps nude, and he has insisted on underwear when our daughter crawls into bed with us since she was abut 3.  But still no "bedclothes", and to me it would be silly to insist on it.

[bolt.]

Wearing a bra alone exposes considerably more snugglable skin than wearing a shirt. Therefore the interpretation remains plausible. Her statement about taking off a shirt can be understood in two ways -- I just wanted people reminded that there is some ambiguity about what she said. It depends entirely whether the woman is a "doesn't everyone sleep in a bra?" type of person, or a "who could possibly sleep with a bra on?" type of person. (Which is why no-bra sleepers would tend to think she clearly means entirely topless -- a natural interpretation, quite possibly correct, but not actually the only interpretation.)

[Joanne]

I haven't said anything about the situation described by the OP, which I agree given everything she has mentioned raises red flags. I disagree with Joanne's assertions that a mother sleeping topless with a naked six year old is, in and of itself, "absurdly, alarmingly over the line" and constitutes abuse. I think it is entirely possible for such a situation to be normal and not alarming within a given family culture.

But then I have a six year old who tells me on a regular basis that she wishes she could still breastfeed...

This child has requested the nudity. That is odd; granting it is abuse.

I stand by sleeping naked with school aged children in America is inappropriate. ETA: I went back to read the post in which I used those words and I stand by that post, which was specific to the info concerning this child and mother.

Later, I address the issue more broadly but not with that language.

[Guest submarines]

This child has requested the nudity. That is odd; granting it is abuse.

I stand by sleeping naked with school aged children in America is inappropriate. ETA: I went back to read the post in which I used those words and I stand by that post, which was specific to the info concerning this child and mother.

Later, I address the issue more broadly but not with that language.

 

Then, is breastfeeding a 6 year old is abuse? Because breastfeeding involves at least some skin to skin, and even if it isn't done totally in the nude, it does involved at least some of the breast exposed.

 

What about breastfeeding a 5 yo?

 

A 4 yo?

[Guest submarines]

Wearing a bra alone exposes considerably more snugglable skin than wearing a shirt. Therefore the interpretation remains plausible. Her statement about taking off a shirt can be understood in two ways -- I just wanted people reminded that there is some ambiguity about what she said. It depends entirely whether the woman is a "doesn't everyone sleep in a bra?" type of person, or a "who could possibly sleep with a bra on?" type of person. (Which is why no-bra sleepers would tend to think she clearly means entirely topless -- a natural interpretation, quite possibly correct, but not actually the only interpretation.)

 

I thought about it too.

[zoobie]

Then, is breastfeeding a 6 year old is abuse? Because breastfeeding involves at least some skin to skin, and even if it isn't done totally in the nude, it does involved at least some of the breast exposed.

What about breastfeeding a 5 yo?

A 4 yo?

I think people are starting to nit-pick. I wouldn't feel comfortable breast feeding a 5 year old, but I don't know that it is abuse. I absolutely know I would never talk about breast feeding in the same breath as a male child's erections. The whole context here is weird. We aren't talking about hypothetical what ifs in narrowly construed situations. This situation with this mom and son sets off alarms.

[Guest submarines]

I think people are starting to nit-pick. I wouldn't feel comfortable breast feeding a 5 year old, but I don't know that it is abuse. I absolutely know I would never talk about breast feeding in the same breath as a male child's erections. The whole context here is weird. We aren't talking about hypothetical what ifs in narrowly construed situations. This situation with this mom and son sets off alarms.

 

Yes it does set alarms off. Joanne is making blanket statements, though, and I would like to know her opinion on breastfeeding past infancy in order to be able to evaluate her other comments in context.

[maize]

I think people are starting to nit-pick. I wouldn't feel comfortable breast feeding a 5 year old, but I don't know that it is abuse. I absolutely know I would never talk about breast feeding in the same breath as a male child's erections. The whole context here is weird. We aren't talking about hypothetical what ifs in narrowly construed situations. This situation with this mom and son sets off alarms.

Joanne has made broad assertions about propriety that go beyond this specific case.

People have different concepts of propriety when it comes to skin exposure, sleeping arrangements, etc. I know some women who think breast feeding, even with infants, is horribly obscene. I know others who have no problem sitting naked in a hot tub with their spouse and school age children. I don't think we can say there is one acceptable standard and someone who breaches that standard is entering abusive territory based purely on how much skin is exposed at a given time.

[kwickimom]

I think the whole thing is red flag freak out and I would never ever have my child around those people without me present. Then again I would not be present because I would run away screaming after the conversation you had with the mother. People can do what they want but if my freak-o-meter goes off even just a tad with people these days- I'm gone and my children are kept far far away.