Brave Writer, Brave Writer - oh what do I do??

[SereneHome]

Have you ever bought a curriculum that sounded AMAZING in theory, but you just don't know if it will work in practice?

 

I bought Jot-it-down and the Wand since my oldest is 5.5 and I was considering starting next year (Sept)

 

I am reading it and reading it and I just don't know....

 

We are already using ETC and AAS and he is loving both of them.  I am VERY language oriented in a sense that I think it's very important for a person to know, understand and being able to express himself on paper.  They are very creative in their story-telling and I would like them to be able to convey their thougts on paper as well.  I want them to know different genre of literature, be familiar with great works, etc etc etc

 

So....I start hyperventilating just thinking about how much money I spend on BW and feel like I HAVE TO use it.  But I just don't know if it's "me" and "us"  I feel like Jot-it-Down is a bit too abstract for me, like I need something like 1-2-3 directions and steps in teaching everything I want to teach.

 

KathyJo gave me a great description of her curriculum LLTL and then of course, there is WWE, etc.  I don't know what to do

 

What should I do???  Help please!!!

 

 

[Crimson Wife]

Yeah, I thought BW's TWJ was an incredibly inspiring read for me, but I was never able to figure out how to actually put it into practice. I'm glad that I got it at a steep discount through HSBC because I would've been very annoyed had I paid full list price for it.

[SereneHome]

Yeah, I got it at the HSBC also, but still, it was sooo much money!!

[Cindyz]

I felt the same way.  It was a good read, but I couldn't figure a way to implement it in a meaningful way.

[dsbrack]

I'm currently reading through TWJ and thinking of ways to implement it as well. "No More, I'm Done" was described to me as a practical way to implement ideas from TWJ and I'm going to use it for next year in conjunction with WWE.  You can get a full preview here to see if it might be what you're looking for.  I feel like it has the hand holding I need as a first time writing teacher.  I'm hopeful that I can implement more of BW as my son gets older and I get more experience.  HTH!

[PeterPan]

I mean this really nicely, but PUT IT AWAY.  Tuck it in a closet, in a nice box, put something on top of it, walk away, and rediscover it in about 3 years.  At that point I think you'll know exactly what to do with it.  Your dc is 5.5, which means he's either a very young K5 or K4.  My ds is 5 yr4m and so I call him K4, despite minor details like him being conversant on the Trojan War and having off the charts verbal scores.  

 

Do what you want.  I'm just cleaning and going through stuff today, and I can tell you that a lot of things that gave me that feeling a few years ago make a lot more sense now.  It just wasn't the right time.  Right stuff, wrong time.  Happens to everyone.  Cathy Duffy calls it paying tuition in the College of Homeschooling.  You learn, you grow.  If it bugs you, sell off and come back to it later.  WTM has everything you need for a 5 yo, and it's just exceptionally little.

[SereneHome]

I mean this really nicely, but PUT IT AWAY.  Tuck it in a closet, in a nice box, put something on top of it, walk away, and rediscover it in about 3 years.  At that point I think you'll know exactly what to do with it.  Your dc is 5.5, which means he's either a very young K5 or K4.  My ds is 5 yr4m and so I call him K4, despite minor details like him being conversant on the Trojan War and having off the charts verbal scores.  

 

Do what you want.  I'm just cleaning and going through stuff today, and I can tell you that a lot of things that gave me that feeling a few years ago make a lot more sense now.  It just wasn't the right time.  Right stuff, wrong time.  Happens to everyone.  Cathy Duffy calls it paying tuition in the College of Homeschooling.  You learn, you grow.  If it bugs you, sell off and come back to it later.  WTM has everything you need for a 5 yo, and it's just exceptionally little.

 

I am going to try.  I am going to try to put it away.  I don't know how successful I will be.  I am itching to start him on something beyond ETC and AAS, something that will help him to put his imagination into a written word.  

 

He tells such amazing elaborate stories, I can't wait for him to start writing it.  Urgghhh, this is hard.

 

BTW, you can be as blunt as you'd like, i am not a sensitive type and REALLY appreciate direct approach to life :)

[Pen]

You can try to tape/digital record him telling his stories and then write them down for him.

[Incognito]

If you want to, you can integrate things like poetry teas.  But really, at his age, if you want to help him write his elaborate stories, DO IT.  Just scribe for him while he tells you his great tale.  Then you can either type it up and have him illustrate it or you can just keep it as-is.  We have done many booklets like that through the last few years and the kids love them and feel very proud of them (and they are fun for me to read too)!

 

FWIW, I agree about putting it away for a few years.  I have BW, and am reading it now, but feel like it is really aimed at homeschooling-mom-me in a year or two.  I get her emails and they are good for reminding about the lifestyle things (go to the library - watch a movie - have a poetry tea - etc.).

 

 

[KSinNS]

Here's how I do BW with a 5 year old. You add one thing from "the lifestyle" every now and then. So, we do poetry tea time. They love it. Once a week, we do free writing with his older sibs. He talks, I write. I read it, we all say what we like in it. No corrections. We'll start some copybook at some point when he can write. We talk about movies and books I read to him, a bit,  but he's just six with no attention span. These are not deep conversations, though they will be at some point. The Wand is for grade 1 or 2. My daughter in grade 2 likes it, but finds it challenging (she's not advanced). It's a great curriculum but written for older kids just learning to read. I may use it next year with D, but will likely need to wait until January or later. If your kid loves to tell stories, you could maybe do a writing project or two, but don't overdo it at this age. And putting it away is also very reasonable. BW is fluffy, but I find it easier to add little things here and there to what we are already doing, and then it starts to come together. Hope that helps. 

 

edit-comment above just got added while I was typing. couldn't agree with her more!

[SereneHome]

Here's how I do BW with a 5 year old. You add one thing from "the lifestyle" every now and then. So, we do poetry tea time. They love it. Once a week, we do free writing with his older sibs. He talks, I write. I read it, we all say what we like in it. No corrections. We'll start some copybook at some point when he can write. We talk about movies and books I read to him, a bit,  but he's just six with no attention span. These are not deep conversations, though they will be at some point. The Wand is for grade 1 or 2. My daughter in grade 2 likes it, but finds it challenging (she's not advanced). It's a great curriculum but written for older kids just learning to read. I may use it next year with D, but will likely need to wait until January or later. If your kid loves to tell stories, you could maybe do a writing project or two, but don't overdo it at this age. And putting it away is also very reasonable. BW is fluffy, but I find it easier to add little things here and there to what we are already doing, and then it starts to come together. Hope that helps. 

 

edit-comment above just got added while I was typing. couldn't agree with her more!

 

Yes!!  it's too fluffy for me.  I can't do fluffy, I am way too uptight!!  I need a structure and direction.

 

I need to put it away before I go crazy.  I might start doing movies or something.  THAT sounds like fun. 

 

ETA:  and yes, I really should start writing down his stories!!!   Incognito - Thank you for that reminder

[Annie Laurie]

I am going to try.  I am going to try to put it away.  I don't know how successful I will be.  I am itching to start him on something beyond ETC and AAS, something that will help him to put his imagination into a written word.  

 

He tells such amazing elaborate stories, I can't wait for him to start writing it.  Urgghhh, this is hard.

 

BTW, you can be as blunt as you'd like, i am not a sensitive type and REALLY appreciate direct approach to life :)

 

Can he tell you his stories while you type them out? Then he can draw, or scribble, a picture to go with it. My kids used to love that and we did that a lot age until about 8- we'd get those blank white books from Rainbow Resource or wherever, and I'd type out their story, we'd cut and paste it in there, and they'd draw pictures. Or we'd use the blank shape forms from Evan-Moor's How to Make Books With Children Series. They loved that!

 

Do you really need Bravewriter for that? It sounds like it just clutters things and overcomplicates things for you right now. The longer I homeschool, the more often I remind myself to keep it simple.

 

ETA: At age 5, their stories were often one sentence to a page that I'd write down and they'd illustrate, and that was just fine. It doesn't have to be anything involved.

[Farrar]

I think BW is totally about keeping it simple. But one person's simple is maybe someone else's needlessly complex. ;). BW really works for us... And I think the ideas are something most people could get something out of. But it could be something little.

 

I second the idea of just picking one or two BW lifestyle things to do. Since you're more uptight, as you say, schedule them with a list or something. Make them feel less fluffy. But it's just sitting to read poetry for a half hour, or watching a good movie together as a family.

 

Do not feel guilty about the money. Everyone makes curriculum buying mistakes. And this is something in PDF form, so it's not taking up space. Also, TWJ is more about 3rd grade or so and up (though there's a sort of pre road map vision that I think can be useful in there for parents of younger kids, the actual activities are all older). That's way in the future. Maybe you'll figuratively dust it off in a few years and find it useful. Or not. But we didn't really hit a stride with language arts where I felt like we had found our right path until toward the end of 2nd grade. So it's early to know what direction you're headed for sure. Give it time!

[Annie Laurie]

I think BW is totally about keeping it simple. But one person's simple is maybe someone else's needlessly complex. ;). BW really works for us... And I think the ideas are something most people could get something out of. But it could be something little.

 

We all use different curriculum, we're all different learners and teachers. The OP sounded stressed out about using it, so it seemed like it's not simple for her, and the way she approaches things. Maybe it will be later, but why not use something that feels simple for her to use right now? Does it matter if it works for other people if it's not working for her right now?

[PeterPan]

I am going to try.  I am going to try to put it away.  I don't know how successful I will be.  I am itching to start him on something beyond ETC and AAS, something that will help him to put his imagination into a written word.  

 

He tells such amazing elaborate stories, I can't wait for him to start writing it.  Urgghhh, this is hard.

 

BTW, you can be as blunt as you'd like, i am not a sensitive type and REALLY appreciate direct approach to life :)

Like the others, I'm confused about what's holding you back???  You don't NEED a composition program, lol.  You just sit down and start typing for him.  He's at a terrific age for you to scribe his narrations.  Have you read WTM???  It's all in there.  He can narrate books, history readings, science you do, movies you watch, etc.  You can get the Milo Winter Aesop's Fables book and let him narrate those.  You can start a geography study and let him act out with puppets or create stories that way.  

 

That's the kind of stuff my dd did at that age.  My ds has verbal apraxia, so working with him is totally different.  If you want structure, think more in terms of categories and assign a different category of writing to each day.  You know, also consider going into fun/creative stuff.  People get WAY too uptight about this, and some kids really enjoy exploring creative stuff like acrostic poetry, prompt writing, the Anti-Coloring books, etc.  Try giving him a fable and letting him retell it with new characters or in a new time setting or with creative additions or expanding a scene that could have happened.

[Angie in VA]

I mean this really nicely, but PUT IT AWAY.  Tuck it in a closet, in a nice box, put something on top of it, walk away, and rediscover it in about 3 years.  At that point I think you'll know exactly what to do with it.  Your dc is 5.5, which means he's either a very young K5 or K4.  My ds is 5 yr4m and so I call him K4, despite minor details like him being conversant on the Trojan War and having off the charts verbal scores.  

 

Do what you want.  I'm just cleaning and going through stuff today, and I can tell you that a lot of things that gave me that feeling a few years ago make a lot more sense now.  It just wasn't the right time.  Right stuff, wrong time.  Happens to everyone.  Cathy Duffy calls it paying tuition in the College of Homeschooling.  You learn, you grow.  If it bugs you, sell off and come back to it later.  WTM has everything you need for a 5 yo, and it's just exceptionally little.

 

:iagree:

 

I just bought a writing program that I sold a few years ago. I've since discovered some suggestions for tweaking it, and really I'm reading it for me, so I'm learning how to help my dc. It's the 2nd program I've done this w/ : bought, sold, bought again, lol. And yet a third writing program that sat on my shelf for years, after many failed attempts to sell it, has suddenly started making sense to me. The keys for me are timing and tweaking.

 

All you need at this point is narration. I couldn't have stopped narration if I'd wanted to w/ my kids. Can anyone? Still can't. Never wanted to, still don't. You can be his scribe as others have said here, and then if he wants to, he can illustrate some of what he narrates to you. 

 

ITA w/ doing what's in WTM. Have you heard SWB's lectures on writing? The one for your child's age/stage? And I like what another poster said about slowing adding in things from TWJ, like tea time and family movies. I'm at the point where I really should be done w/ writing instruction, but, again, I'm investing in myself at this point, so I can help my child. And BW is on my wishlist. Of course. 

[SereneHome]

Like the others, I'm confused about what's holding you back???  You don't NEED a composition program, lol.  You just sit down and start typing for him.  He's at a terrific age for you to scribe his narrations.  Have you read WTM???  It's all in there.  He can narrate books, history readings, science you do, movies you watch, etc.  You can get the Milo Winter Aesop's Fables book and let him narrate those.  You can start a geography study and let him act out with puppets or create stories that way.  

 

 

 

This might sound bad, but I never seem to have the time and/or opportunity.  I have two younger kids and DS1's stories are LOOONG.  It's not a short paragraph stories, we are talking about chapters and sequels and the whole nine yards. 

 

Anyway, I feel better after this thread and will start with a few things.  I already have some ideas

 

Thanks!

[PeterPan]

Easily solved.  Show him how to record his stories using an app, the recorder on your computer, whatever you've got.  I've got recording software on my iPads, phones, etc.  Have you seen ToonTastic?  Fabulous app, free, and it walks them through building stories (complete with setting, conflict, etc.!) and let's them record and animate.  He'll LOVE it.

 

If he records just the voice of his narrations, you can go back and type it later at your convenience or let him use it for typing practice.

 

Btw, the Anti-Coloring books he can do on his own.  We LOVED them at that age and for several years around then, highly recommend for creative, expressive kids.

[SereneHome]

Should I be embarrased that i have no idea what Anti-coloring books are?

[SereneHome]

Oh also - another reason I think I am finding this a bit frustrating is bc I am looking through Wand and it seems to be duplicating some of what he is already learning in ETC and AAS, so I kind of feel like a fool buying it. 

[Pen]

Yes!!  it's too fluffy for me.  I can't do fluffy, I am way too uptight!!  I need a structure and direction.

 

I need to put it away before I go crazy.  I might start doing movies or something.  THAT sounds like fun. 

 

ETA:  and yes, I really should start writing down his stories!!!   Incognito - Thank you for that reminder

 

The question may be whether your child will do better with a BW approach or the sort of approach that you prefer. Some children fit the one or the other better.

 

My ds has done better with a BW type approach than approaches that rely on outlining and the like. Though I very much like things like IEW and WWS, they have not been such great fits for my ds.

 

For his stories, if you could just record them now, you would not have the difficulty of writing, and he might like to hear them later. And maybe when the time comes just one or two could be chosen to be written down.

[Farrar]

We all use different curriculum, we're all different learners and teachers. The OP sounded stressed out about using it, so it seemed like it's not simple for her, and the way she approaches things. Maybe it will be later, but why not use something that feels simple for her to use right now? Does it matter if it works for other people if it's not working for her right now?

 

Which is why I said that one person's simple might be someone else's needlessly complex.  In other words, to each their own.  Perhaps you didn't understand what I was saying because I'm not sure how any of this could apply to the advice I gave.  I also told her it was fine to not use it, not to feel guilty, and to put it away and maybe look at it in a few years and that it might be right then, or not.  And that that was fine too.

 

I stand by the idea that BW is full of ideas that can be very small things.  Everyone should do what works for them (obviously), but if there was something the OP was drawn to about BW, then implementing one tiny piece from the program, such as having a poetry tea once a week (or, hey, once a month, which is often what we end up with) and then using something else (or nothing, as is being advised here) would be a way to feel like she got something out of it without it being onerous or difficult.  But, of course, she can take that advice or not.

 

I'm not sure if everyone in this thread really understands what BW even is.  It's not a traditional curricula with specific activities - it's a flexible lifestyle approach to writing overall.  Of course, that's not for everyone, but it's not a composition program, as some people are saying.  The things that BW recommends for this age are very gentle and fun and light.  They're so much less academic than many of the programs used by people on this board for K/1st.  But they're not laid out.  And, of course, they're not right for everyone.  That goes without saying for any program.

[Farrar]

Oh, seconding Toontastic and the Anti-Coloring Books.  Toontastic is such a great storytelling app if you have an iPad.

[PeterPan]

The question may be whether your child will do better with a BW approach or the sort of approach that you prefer. Some children fit the one or the other better.

 

My ds has done better with a BW type approach than approaches that rely on outlining and the like. Though I very much like things like IEW and WWS, they have not been such great fits for my ds.

 

For his stories, if you could just record them now, you would not have the difficulty of writing, and he might like to hear them later. And maybe when the time comes just one or two could be chosen to be written down.

Thunk me a little, but nobody suggests outlining for a 5 yo.   :D   Personally I agree with you that no one should be forced to write from a sequential outline unless it clicks with them or helps with them.  My dd uses Inspiration software to map her stuff and then lets it convert the map to an outline.  When she was little, we would use a whiteboard and key words to jog her memory, or I'd go away and let her sweat (which is what she did!).  I'm trying to remember the early IEW and CW stuff we did, and it seemed so gentle, just keywords, nothing more.  I don't know.  Most of the approaches are so nebulous and overlap so much, it's really a matter of emphasis.  I agree, WTM's insistence that children ought to giggle with glee over linear outlines and rewrites is mind-boggling to me.  However even then it's aimed at 4th or 5th grade and up, not 5 yo, lol.  That's why I'm saying I must have missed something.  Oh, and I read BW when a friend loaned it to me.  You get to the point in your journey where you read stuff and go "of course" because that's what you've been doing.  Nothing was too contradictory or too revelatory.  If it inspires the op, that's awesome.  I agree WTM can skew someone toward making their writing really dry and soul-less, which could totally strip the joy for some kids.  My dd was like that, so it never occurred to me NOT to take WTM with a grain of salt or to let the skills go into something more creative or interesting.

 

Just for the op's trivia, my dd did that with incredible, long narrations early on.  She later hinxed and tightened up.  Turned out she had serious issues with mental organization and getting stuff onto paper.  So while I think it's FABULOUS that he's doing this and that you're seeing these tremendous verbal skills (which is what you're seeing), I wouldn't slack off the age-appropriate basics (dictation, handwriting, building working memory, etc.).  I don't think "composition" as a subject is at all necessary at this age.  You just want to make sure he can get his thoughts on paper in an age-typical way.  For anything that's BEYOND age-typical, you do the scribing.  And age-typical would be something like writing his name or a phrase below a caption.  (Less if he's K4 obviously.)  

 

The Anti-Coloring Book: Creative Activities for Ages 6 and Up

 

The Fourth Anti-Coloring Book: Creative Activities for Ages 6 and Up

 

The fun thing about the Anti-Coloring books is you can respond lots of ways.  (with writing, with drawing, with...)

 

Ok, I want to say this again.  My beef is not whether it's BW or WTM or whatever, because I'm not a purist on any of them and think they all meld together if you take what works from each and look at your dc.  I'm saying don't confuse age-appropriateness with what books say.  You have to do things that are age-appropriate for your dc.  A dc who is 5.5 right now, as in 5 yr 5 months, is an extremely young K5er or a K4.  K4 has almost no writing, and K5 typically involves their name, phone number, and a few basic words at the end.  That's IT.  Composition, by ANYONE'S standards, doesn't start till 1st.  So if you have a boy (6 months behind a girl) and they're young for their grade at that, picking up a curriculum, ANY curriculum, and trying to implement the suggestions might not be developmentally appropriate.  Just because a dc has a high verbal IQ that doesn't mean their whole body is equally advanced.  They still have the norms of development to deal with.  So you might have to do 3rd grade science with a kid who can only spell like a 1st grader or K5er.  You have to allow for that a-synchronousness (not a word?) and make sure that you're letting him go forward with what he enjoys without making him do things that are not developmentally appropriate.  You can do both at the same time by scribing, employing technology like the iPad, etc.

[mamaraby]

Ditto on the ok to put it away for awhile. I have a third grader and I still couldn't really figure out how to implement it with him. We ended up going back to WWE/FLL which we hated when we tried it in first grade, but we both enjoy now.

 

I second (third?) any of the suggestions to record or take dictation on your child's stories. From what I remember of BW, doing that is a very BW sort of thing. :0)

[Farrar]

Ok, I want to say this again.  My beef is not whether it's BW or WTM or whatever, because I'm not a purist on any of them and think they all meld together if you take what works from each and look at your dc.  I'm saying don't confuse age-appropriateness with what books say.  You have to do things that are age-appropriate for your dc. 

 

I'm not sure what you think you're arguing against, but it's not Brave Writer.  Everything Julie talks about in TWJ is in line with everything you're saying.  In BW land, she encourages parents of much older children - 10 or 11 yo - to see oral narration and copywork as plenty for language arts.  The only BW product that covers composition is for high school students.  That doesn't mean that you or anyone else has to like the way that TWJ or Julie Bogart presents these ideas or routines or that it will jibe with everyone's needs and wants, but it's not a composition program.  None of the things the OP has from BW are for composition, all of them encourage waiting until a child is ready, scribing for a child as long as is needed, and being very gentle.  There is absolutely nothing about outlining anywhere in BW.

 

Sorry, but as such a BW junkie, this just chafes against me that anyone would think BW could even be age inappropriate when she specifically talks about stages not being tied to age and spends so much effort encouraging parents to relax and slow down.  The thing that makes it hard to implement for many people is not that it's rigorous or tear-inducing or age inappropriate for children, but that it's open ended and flexible because the program doesn't want to insist that any child will necessarily be ready for anything.  So many parents find it hard to get a handle on that.

[Annie Laurie]

Which is why I said that one person's simple might be someone else's needlessly complex.  In other words, to each their own.  Perhaps you didn't understand what I was saying because I'm not sure how any of this could apply to the advice I gave.  I also told her it was fine to not use it, not to feel guilty, and to put it away and maybe look at it in a few years and that it might be right then, or not.  And that that was fine too.

 

I stand by the idea that BW is full of ideas that can be very small things.  Everyone should do what works for them (obviously), but if there was something the OP was drawn to about BW, then implementing one tiny piece from the program, such as having a poetry tea once a week (or, hey, once a month, which is often what we end up with) and then using something else (or nothing, as is being advised here) would be a way to feel like she got something out of it without it being onerous or difficult.  But, of course, she can take that advice or not.

 

I'm not sure if everyone in this thread really understands what BW even is.  It's not a traditional curricula with specific activities - it's a flexible lifestyle approach to writing overall.  Of course, that's not for everyone, but it's not a composition program, as some people are saying.  The things that BW recommends for this age are very gentle and fun and light.  They're so much less academic than many of the programs used by people on this board for K/1st.  But they're not laid out.  And, of course, they're not right for everyone.  That goes without saying for any program.

 

Perhaps I didn't- the word needlessly is what threw me off, with the winky face. It seemed to imply that if it feels complex to someone, then that's just because they don't know how to use it. When I just think one curriculum won't fit everyone or make sense to everyone, and the OP seemed stressed about it, so there are plenty of other methods to try. But, tomato, tomahto. It's not that important, and I don't mean to derail the thread.

 

I own The Writer's Jungle, and I recently bought Partnership Writing to try with my 9 year old. I do love that it's more of an education for *me* in how to approach writing with my kids. I think it can be hard to figure out how to implement it when it doesn't come naturally to you, or at least it was for me back when I bought it to try with my oldest, who is now graduated. That's why I love the look of Partnership Writing and am really looking forward to trying it out. I love that she broke it all down, so it should be more doable for me. My kids are very creative and it looks like exactly the thing to get my 9 yr old inspired about writing.

[Pen]

Thunk me a little, but nobody suggests outlining for a 5 yo.   :D 

 

 

(ETA also, I am assuming that if OP's child is 5.5 now and she was thinking of starting in Sept. that the child would be 6 by then, or WWE1 stage.   ??)

 

Well, that's probably more or less true. But IEW suggests that it can be started into use that early with picking out keywords--Andrew says he has done that with preschoolers. And WWE is intended for use at first grade, not much later than OP's child with a system that starts with copying and narration and will eventually work toward an outline system of writing at least so far as I can tell from what I bought of it, which was all of WWE and WWS1. (Writing has been our most tough area and one where I have a number of programs that, however excellent, did not fit ds.) BW from what I got to of it, which is so far not into high school materials, does not work in an outlining way at all. And since it is based on things like Natalie Goldberg and Peter Elbow, my expectation is that it will not even come high school, but I did want to give the caveat that I've not gone beyond Writer's Jungle.

 

The poetry teatimes and so on, are not just not at the outlining stage yet, but are not aimed toward that ever in the BW lifestyle/program.  

 

That is, however much it may look like it is the same as WTM or IEW if you just read through some borrowed material, it is not the same. It is not the emphasis for a 5 year old--and will still not be so for a 4th, 5th or 6th grader.

 

Most all the other programs I have seen are, one way or another, heading from whatever is done at age 5 or 6, toward a standard linear form of academic writing from outlines and so on by middle school. So BW is unusual in not having that thrust.

 

 

 

 Personally I agree with you that no one should be forced to write from a sequential outline unless it clicks with them or helps with them.  My dd uses Inspiration software to map her stuff and then lets it convert the map to an outline.  When she was little, we would use a whiteboard and key words to jog her memory, or I'd go away and let her sweat (which is what she did!).  I'm trying to remember the early IEW and CW stuff we did, and it seemed so gentle, just keywords, nothing more.

 

But each child is different, and "gentle," just keywords for yours, was tears causing for mine. OTOH, mine has taken a prompt word and written poems that get published in a local venue...the problem of the blank page does not seem to be one for him. And poetry free writes have been one of his favorite activities. So while I thought IEW with its given topics would help, it turned out just the opposite. It is again like what Farrar said regarding one person's simple being another's needlessly complex. And one person's gentle and systematic etc  may be another's torture chamber.

 

 

 I don't know.  Most of the approaches are so nebulous and overlap so much, it's really a matter of emphasis.  I agree, WTM's insistence that children ought to giggle with glee over linear outlines and rewrites is mind-boggling to me.  However even then it's aimed at 4th or 5th grade and up, not 5 yo, lol.

 

 

See above.

 

 That's why I'm saying I must have missed something.  Yes. I think so,   Oh, and I read BW when a friend loaned it to me.  

 

 

Yes. I think so, Again, see above.

However much it may look like it is the same as WTM or IEW if you just read through some borrowed material (and which was it that you read? WJ? or some other book and if so for what level?) it is not the same in what are very significant regards at least for some children, such as mine.

Linear outlines are not the emphasis for a 5 year old--and will still not be so for a 4th, 5th or 6th grader. ...or ever.  

Rewrites, yes, rewrites are a part of BW. 

 

 Linear outlines no, and that was why I wrote about that, not because it would be a significant part of any program at the age of 5. But because it is different for BW fundamentally. This difference is probably why BW was able to work for my ds who is 2E, better than a lot of other things (and boy have there been a lot of things!) that we tried.  The other fundamental difference is that many programs have something like "writing across the curriculum" -- but BW has more of a whole lifestyle associated with it, a way of trying to incorporate writing into the joy of living.

 

 

 

You get to the point in your journey where you read stuff and go "of course" because that's what you've been doing.  Nothing was too contradictory or too revelatory.  If it inspires the op, that's awesome.  I agree WTM can skew someone toward making their writing really dry and soul-less, which could totally strip the joy for some kids.  My dd was like that, so it never occurred to me NOT to take WTM with a grain of salt or to let the skills go into something more creative or interesting.

 

 

It does not have to do necessarily with creative versus academic, or dry versus creative. That is probably another misconception.

 

Just for the op's trivia, my dd did that with incredible, long narrations early on.  She later hinxed and tightened up.  Turned out she had serious issues with mental organization and getting stuff onto paper.  So while I think it's FABULOUS that he's doing this and that you're seeing these tremendous verbal skills (which is what you're seeing), I wouldn't slack off the age-appropriate basics (dictation, handwriting, building working memory, etc.).  I don't think "composition" as a subject is at all necessary at this age.  You just want to make sure he can get his thoughts on paper in an age-typical way.  For anything that's BEYOND age-typical, you do the scribing.  And age-typical would be something like writing his name or a phrase below a caption.  (Less if he's K4 obviously.)  

 

The Anti-Coloring Book: Creative Activities for Ages 6 and Up

 

 

Just to point out individuality again, I bought Anti-coloring books for my ds when he was supposedly at the right stage/age for them, and he loathed them!   I  thought they looked like they'd be fun. But I am not my son. Just as OP is not her son, and what she likes in terms of directiveness and so on, and dislikes in terms of "fluffy" could turn out to be opposite of her son. Or they may be alike in that.

 

The Fourth Anti-Coloring Book: Creative Activities for Ages 6 and Up

 

The fun thing about the Anti-Coloring books is you can respond lots of ways.  (with writing, with drawing, with...)

 

Ok, I want to say this again.  My beef is not whether it's BW or WTM or whatever, because I'm not a purist on any of them and think they all meld together if you take what works from each and look at your dc.  I'm saying don't confuse age-appropriateness with what books say.  You have to do things that are age-appropriate for your dc.  A dc who is 5.5 right now, as in 5 yr 5 months, is an extremely young K5er or a K4.  K4 has almost no writing, and K5 typically involves their name, phone number, and a few basic words at the end.  That's IT.  Composition, by ANYONE'S standards, doesn't start till 1st.  So if you have a boy (6 months behind a girl) and they're young for their grade at that, picking up a curriculum, ANY curriculum, and trying to implement the suggestions might not be developmentally appropriate.  Just because a dc has a high verbal IQ that doesn't mean their whole body is equally advanced.  They still have the norms of development to deal with.  So you might have to do 3rd grade science with a kid who can only spell like a 1st grader or K5er.  You have to allow for that a-synchronousness (not a word?) and make sure that you're letting him go forward with what he enjoys without making him do things that are not developmentally appropriate.  You can do both at the same time by scribing, employing technology like the iPad, etc.

 

 

Totally agree with the age/stage appropriateness being important, and that for this particular child it sounds like scribing or using some sort of technology to help would be useful. Also if there is no LD or other issue, I agree that learning penmanship and so on would be a good idea.

 

I also agree with Farrar that implementing something like poetry teatime-- and it could be just once or twice in the year not once per week -- that perhaps the younger children can also enjoy at least attending or looking on from a baby sling, might be a thing from BW that could be managed without overwhelming the OP and would be age appropriate.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

For the younger kid, in a BW household, consider the book: Talking, Drawing, Writing  I think this book bridges the gap between Pre-K and full-fledged BW around 2-3rd grade.  It corresponds well to getting kids up to the level of "No More I'm Done" which is another book that fits into the BW lifestyle nicely, with better step-by-step.

 

Not that I'm trying to talk you into spending more money, but these books are truly practical approaches to pre-k - 1st grade writing.  This is what my middle child is doing right now, as well as participating in Friday Free Writes at her own ability level.

 

I still scribe for either kid if they want to tell an elaborate story.  I got a free voice recording app for my ipod touch and I record them, then I can pause it as I'm typing as needed.  I break it into "illustratable" sections, print, and then they patch it together into books.  

 

 

So, my dd(almost)5's LA looks like this:  handwriting practice, McGuffey Primer (reading/phonics), FIAR (occasional literary element), oral narration (various books we're reading), journaling type work from Talking, Drawing, Writing, and a Friday Free Write if she wants to participate.  She is also present for poety teas. 

 

ds7 has:  WWE2, handwriting/copywork, FIAR, French dictation (bilingual home), Drwaing Sentences (grammar) and Friday Freewrites. 

 

I think TWJ is a great investment.  I read it through and was totally lost, but find myself going back to it regularly for inspiration.  I don't have The Wand subscription because I make my own copywork and figure literary analysis is covered in FIAR, at least as much as is needed at these ages.  I also prefer to do my own thing with grammar, and have not begun spelling yet. 

 

 

 

 

[Vida Winter]

If you want to hear it from the author, call Julie at BW. She'll give you some suggestions and a dose of motivation!

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I wanted to just add- my evolution as a homeschooler/teacher has been CRAZY over the last three years since starting K4 for ds.  I went from wanting to push intensive academics (aka creating a super child) to wanting to create a whole child who loves learning.  What I love about BW is the emphasis on helping the child blossom as a writer at his own pace.  The author helps you see what stage your child is in by listing specific readiness signs for each stage.  As mentioned above, these are only loosely tied to age/grade- moving at the correct pace for the individual is more important.  For some reason, we all seem to understand that with math.  Don't teach multiplication if the concept of addition is shaky.  But we all panic at the idea that composition can be put off for quite a while while mechanics are mastered. 

 

I like the teacher's book "The Complete Writer" much better than the WWE workbooks because you can get an idea of a sequence of skills for composition, but them move through them entirely at your own pace and with your own materials.  I think it combines well with an overall BW approach to ENJOYING the literary arts.  The workbooks, however, are a little blah in terms of inspiration.  :-) 

 

I am required by law here to do some composition with my son.  These are the steps we take:

 

- Choose a topic (usually something he likes or has recently learned about)

- I then ask him to think about 3-4 interesting things he'd like to say about the topic, and tell them to me.  I jot down on the whiteboard some key words from each sentence to jog our memories. 

- I then ask him to repeat the first sentence he said to me. 

- I then dictate it back to him while he writes it down.

- So on, until the whole paragraph is written.

 

STOP

 

Next day: (Note: ds does NO physical writing this day for this project!)

- We take a look at any misspelled words or awkward writing.

We determine if the ideas are organized in the most logical way (I got the idea to even cut out the sentences and physically rearrange them from another mom here- 8FillIntheHeart)

- We decide if we need an introductory sentence to help the reader who might not know the topic get the idea, or if any sentences would be more interesting with a bit more detail.

- I rewrite the final draft according to our changes.  I try to make our above "editing" very collaborative- that is, we both are free to contribute ideas, and he is free to reject mine if he doesn't like them.

STOP

 

Next day:

- Son uses my final version as model, and on a clean sheet, he copies it (copywork) out in neat handwriting.

- He illustrates it

 

DONE! 

 

This is for an advanced 1st grader.  I'm sharing this activity because I haven't seen anything laid out quite like this in any particular curriculum.  However, I have invested in SO MANY various books on writing, curriculum on writing, audio lectures on writing, long WTM threads on writing...  and this is the method that came from it.  I can't remember who coined the term "scaffolding" for the help provided to a child as they learn a task, but basically, the idea is to create the appropriate scaffolding for your child's abilities, and then gently remove it as the child progresses until they are "freestanding" so to speak.  BW offers a system of scaffolding which is particularly effective in helping a child find his own voice in writing.  WWE offers scaffolding for helping a child in organization of ideas.  I feel there is room for both. 

 

The more you read on a topic, the better you will know what materials work for your teaching style (MUCH more important than your child's learning style, IMO) and when to modify, combine, or create your own methods. 

 

 

 

 

 

[SereneHome]

Just wanted to say thank you again for all the suggestions and info.  I am reading it all and trying to process it :)

[Pen]

If you are not familiar with this, it is a link to the BW lifestyle page:  http://www.bravewriter.com/bwl/

 

Not sure if it would be helpful, or cause greater sense of angst and overwhelm! If it helps, use it, if not, file for future reference. 

 

We do not try to do all of that by any means. Just some parts as fit our lives, and when and how it works for us.