An article worth reading for those debating the value of a college education today...

[Gwen in VA]

Fascinating thread, but I'm going to jump back to WAY earlier in this thread.....

 

Dh and I are college-educated, and we expected all of our kids to be. Well, we have a kid who hates academics. He does ridiculously well in school, but he hates following what the teacher says, and he can learn the material much faster on his own. He did go to college his freshman year, ended up #3 in his class, and his profs are still showing some of his work as examples of well-done projects to this year's freshmen.

 

But he left, with no intention of ever going back to college. (And when he is not working he is doing training through an online program and he is teaching himself Calculus 3 and statics and generally sad that his self-studying is getting in the way of other things he wants to self-study!)

 

Dh and I read those articles stating that students with some college do financially much better than those with no college, and we look at each other and say, "Huh?" Ds will not earn more money because he spent a year in a classroom after high school.

 

But then it his us -- 99.9999% of students with the slightest brain in their head are expected to go to college. VERY few bright students will just leave high school and not step foot in a college classroom. That is counter to what our society thinks bright kids should do. As a society we EXPECT bright students to go to college, so they do, even if they end up dropping out because of a mismatch in personality.

 

So if VERY few students who are bright and motivated do not step foot in a college classroom, that results in the strange statistic that going to college and leaving results in much high er life-long earnings.

 

As a society we need to let go of the idea that ALL students need to go to college. Some don't -- and some of the young people who don't belong in college ARE bright!

 

(Dh and i are still looking for the statistics about the lifelong earnings of kids who score over 2100 on the SAT and never set foot in a college! It won't be calculated because there are SO few kids who fit that mold!)

[Jane in NC]

(Dh and i are still looking for the statistics about the lifelong earnings of kids who score over 2100 on the SAT and never set foot in a college! It won't be calculated because there are SO few kids who fit that mold!)

 

There are people of my generation who never attended college who have done well professionally and financially.  I grew up in the industrial Midwest where a number of jobs in the trades paid better than many requiring college degrees.  But this is the past--and maybe the future.  I have read that a number of manufacturers are bringing jobs back to the States.  There are fewer jobs though and these often involve some sort of technological knowledge. Does Whirlpool want its industrial workers to have some college or certifications?  Given the sophisticated electronics that go into appliances today, it would not surprise me.  (I just looked at some job listings on the Whirlpool website.  Technicians need an associate's degree.)

 

Gwen, your son may join the league of successful entrepreneurs who have left college before graduating.  I wish him well! 

 

This thread has taken some odd twists (and personally I am taken aback that some people presume that I lack empathy or that I am of a certain monied class.)  No one suggests college is for all.  No one advocates six figure debt for undergrad.  Everyone wants their children to find satisfying paths in life.

 

Personally I wish that more kids would think about entrepreneurship which is why I do some of the work that I do with youth in my community.  But I was trying to avoid anecdotes and discuss statistics--apparently that backfired.

[at the beach]

Fascinating thread, but I'm going to jump back to WAY earlier in this thread.....

 

Dh and I are college-educated, and we expected all of our kids to be. Well, we have a kid who hates academics. He does ridiculously well in school, but he hates following what the teacher says, and he can learn the material much faster on his own. He did go to college his freshman year, ended up #3 in his class, and his profs are still showing some of his work as examples of well-done projects to this year's freshmen.

 

But he left, with no intention of ever going back to college. (And when he is not working he is doing training through an online program and he is teaching himself Calculus 3 and statics and generally sad that his self-studying is getting in the way of other things he wants to self-study!)

 

Dh and I read those articles stating that students with some college do financially much better than those with no college, and we look at each other and say, "Huh?" Ds will not earn more money because he spent a year in a classroom after high school.

 

But then it his us -- 99.9999% of students with the slightest brain in their head are expected to go to college. VERY few bright students will just leave high school and not step foot in a college classroom. That is counter to what our society thinks bright kids should do. As a society we EXPECT bright students to go to college, so they do, even if they end up dropping out because of a mismatch in personality.

 

So if VERY few students who are bright and motivated do not step foot in a college classroom, that results in the strange statistic that going to college and leaving results in much high er life-long earnings.

 

As a society we need to let go of the idea that ALL students need to go to college. Some don't -- and some of the young people who don't belong in college ARE bright!

 

(Dh and i are still looking for the statistics about the lifelong earnings of kids who score over 2100 on the SAT and never set foot in a college! It won't be calculated because there are SO few kids who fit that mold!)

 

Yes! I think this drive for everyone to have credentials stems from compulsory education to an extent--JMO. There exists the idea that people can't be well-educated at whatever unless they have a document that says so and unless they have spent time in a traditional school setting. The push for standardization and credentialing for everything is bad IMO. Yes, for some things you need credentials, but for others not so much. 

 

As for the whole notion that college is worth it, yes and no. Depends on the person. Depends on the debt. I think studies like this can sometimes have the effect of giving people the go-ahead to take on lots of debt for a very tenuous benefit. I think studies like this help colleges stay in business and make it easier for colleges to keep raising tuition. Private student loans should be able to be discharged in bankruptcy. Then, banks would not hand out money so recklessly to people who will likely never pay it back. There are ways to get a college education without a lot of cost if you want that. You and/or your parents do not need access to huge amounts of $ via private loans, regardless of your ability to pay it back, so that you can get an undergrad degree. Also, don't be lulled into thinking some degrees pay off and others don't. Times are hard. Jobs are scarce. I hear of engineers and other STEM-degreed people who can't get jobs. It's not THAT uncommon. There are too many people I know who are willing to take on huge debt for a degree (way more than the government subsidized amount), and they do not care after the fact if they can't pay the debt. It is just this thing out there that doesn't really impact them all that much. It's a huge problem IMO. If the gov't has to come up with loan repayment programs where after X years your debt is wiped out or you pay based on your income, not your debt, and so on, there seems to be a problem. There must be quite a few people with more debt than they can handle, and that is not a good thing. JMO.

[creekland]

So if VERY few students who are bright and motivated do not step foot in a college classroom, that results in the strange statistic that going to college and leaving results in much high er life-long earnings.

 

As a society we need to let go of the idea that ALL students need to go to college. Some don't -- and some of the young people who don't belong in college ARE bright!

 

(Dh and i are still looking for the statistics about the lifelong earnings of kids who score over 2100 on the SAT and never set foot in a college! It won't be calculated because there are SO few kids who fit that mold!)

 

Your guy is taking the "Gates" path - he could end up successful with it. Some definitely are!  ;)

 

There are very few kids that fit that mold... there are many in the lower score rankings, but definitely not many in the higher scores unless they opt for family businesses (some do).  I believe it's due to our culture tending to require that piece of paper...

 

Yes! I think this drive for everyone to have credentials stems from compulsory education to an extent--JMO. There exists the idea that people can't be well-educated at whatever unless they have a document that says so and unless they have spent time in a traditional school setting. The push for standardization and credentialing for everything is bad IMO. Yes, for some things you need credentials, but for others not so much. 

 

 

I wonder how much of it has come from lawsuits... if a company hires someone with that piece of paper they can't be as easily sued when something goes wrong, but if they hire someone without it and something goes wrong...

 

Like Jane, I know many from our generation who have done well in all sorts of jobs without degrees - a mere couple hundred years ago degrees in anything weren't common at all in the populace, but society still survived.  But there are many of those I know who tell me no one new can get hired in their company without that piece of paper... and some have gone back to school themselves as they can't advance without it.

 

I'll fully agree that it isn't right.  I just don't really think it's going to change - esp when the supply of willing workers with a degree is so large.  You'd really have to network and/or know people to snag a job over the competitors.

 

Fairly recently (as in a couple of years ago) my cousin became one of two hired at a small town police force in NY.  No degree was needed (they sent you to training).  However, the only 2 hired out of 40+ applicants were the 2 who had 4 year college degrees.  Coincidence?  I doubt it.  My cousin feels his college debt was worth it and he's quickly paying it off.  (His debt was around the national average.)

[Nan in Mass]

Just for the record, *I* don't think college is for everyone, either.  In my family, we have people with no college degree who are doing fine and probably will be fine their whole lives, financially.  But it changes their lives in ways that both they and we would rather it didn't.  I am not thinking of might be's or what if's.  Naturally, I worry about those, but there isn't much I can do about them.  It is has-happened's that worry me.  I want my children to fit into my family culture, to experience the fun and beauty and advantages of this way of being.  It isn't that I don't know there is fun and beauty and advantages in other family cultures as well, but I am firmly in the middle of a large extended family and I want that for my children.  I don't want them to gradually drift to the edge and then perch uncomfortably on the fringes.

 

Gwen - Your son will probably be fine.  We all have had to get past the steriotypes stereotypes? and look at the individual.  You can add my bil to your list of some college, no degree, 800 SATs, turning down full scholarships to prestigious private high schools people.  He's working in a technical field which usually requires a technical degree and has done some entreprenuer eur? stuff.  We all predicted dire consequences that just plain haven't materialized over the last 35 years.  He isn't rich but he is perfectly comfortable.  He could have been rich if he'd wanted to but he tends to give away his money at a certain point grin.  His career has been secondary to other pursuits and he has been amazingly consistent in his focus.  He has started over again anew in several locations, some of them quite recently, so I don't think his success was a case of being in a specific time and place.  Or rather, it was, but similar times and places exist today.

 

Lisa - My personal definition of tragedy is "if only I had known".  Don't go there.  That way lies madness.  Unless you were being terribly selfish and KNEW IT AT THE TIME (really selfish, not just tired or distracted), you have to chock past mistakes up to inexperience and move on.  Your loved ones don't want you to hurt because of them so you owe it to them only to look forward and try to make things better now, not back.  The tricky bit of all this is that you have to look back enough to know what to do in the future, which is bound to be dreadful.  You aren't alone.  I had a similar conversation about past decisions with my oldest.  Try to remember that it isn't over until you are dead and that sometimes wonderful, miraculous things DO happen. : )

 

Lots of hugs,

Nan

[creekland]

I want my children to fit into my family culture, to experience the fun and beauty and advantages of this way of being.  It isn't that I don't know there is fun and beauty and advantages in other family cultures as well, ...

Nan

 

I'll admit that this is us too.  I don't actually CARE if my guys use their degrees or not.  I just want them to have them to fall back on if needed AND to enjoy the learning and experiences (of all sorts) along the way.  Those experiences can last a lifetime.  We still reminisce our college days fairly often (with other grads from various colleges) and can connect with alumni anywhere/anytime from a casual meeting at a restaurant or park across the country to others we know and keep up with on a regular basis.

 

If mine REALLY didn't want it or weren't able to do it, I'd have had to adjust, but so far, that isn't the case.  Mine have all looked forward to going.

 

That said, I firmly believe to each their own and that all do best on the right path for them.

 

[swellmomma]

Or have so many kids that it is economically unrealistic. Say you choose an avg instate school at 25000 (that is pretty typical) that is $100,000 for 4 yrs. Multiply that by multiple kids (who also consume food, clothing, resources while growing up making it harder to save anyway) makes saving actual amt for college expenses unrealistic. ;) College is a priority for our kids if they want to attend, but it most definitely is a limited choice.

 

wowzers 25K is an avg instate school cost?  My teens have chosen the university they want to attend, and being a private university it is more expensive than the other options coming in at $10,500 per year including books.  IF they want to stay in dorms it is another $3200 for the dorm and $3600 for their meal plan for the year.  But since the university is in the city where I have family living they also have the option to live with them and only be out the cost of transportation to and from the school in the form of bus passes which would be under $1K for the year.  So ultimately, their private school degree will cost them about $11,500 per year x4 years.  Now I am not in a position to help them, it has nothing to do with morality and everything to do with the the logisitics of being a single mom.  Now for my kids both have decided on the sciences(this week at least lol)  dd14 in environmental science, ds15 in biology/conservation.  Now in both of their cases the degree is a place holder of sorts.  Both plan to enlist in the military.  Initially both wanted to right out of high school, but dd14 recognized the benefit of getting a degree first and then joining as on officer and how much better the pay and benefits were compared to just being enlisted, and the debt of school in those 4 years will make a huge impact.  ds15 is a bit different, he is on meds that would prevent him from enlisting, he needs to get his degree to support himself if he never enlists BUT he only needs to be off his meds for 5 years in order to pass the psych eval.  Since the meds are primarily for ADHD and an antidepressant which is thought to be temporary, doing a degree first gives him time to get off the meds and function as a young adult(past the issues of hormones of puberty messing with his head etc), Once he has his degree he can enlist as an officer like dd14.  ANd if he still can not do so he will have a degree to fall back on. 

 

While I believe there is more to success than simply financial pay off I do take that into consideration when couselling my teens about post secondary options.  I want them to have financial stability and a better life than I have been able to provide.  I am a college drop out due to oldest's issues, I want them to have better prospects for work.  I have never had a problem getting a job but it is not the type of work to provide for a comfortable life over all kwim.  I don't want my kids in huge amounts of debt right off the bat, with career options that with provide stability, etc.  In our case the plan is that they have 3 years to earn and save the amount they need for first year, if they want to live in dorms they need to save that as well.  THen they have 4 months ever summer break to earn and save for the upcoming year, if they each get step grants (which are grants given to employers to hire and pay for post secondary students to come work for them) like myself and my siblings did they will make about 3/4 of the amount they need each summer and need to take a small loan for the difference, meaning their total debt out of university should come in at under $10K.  Completely manageable to repay in short order.

 

I do wish there was stats showing the other options (trade school/apprenticeship, 2 year diploma programs) etc As those are often very good options too.  I would have zero problem with my kids opting to go the trades route with an apprenticeship and earn their 4 year journeyman ticket (work x number hours on the job each year, then attend trade school for 6-8 weeks to cover that part of the level, write the test and move up a level which often comes with a big jump in pay).  Of the college work I have done some of it actually provides well if I stayed the path, like my medical office assistant certificate was a 10month long program from a good well known school and would provide a good income if I opted to work fulltime, options that work with my desired schedule are uncommon.  I was in a 2 year diploma program in early childhood development.  I only finished 1 year of it which works for most of my career goals, gets me decent pay for the field and I love it.  But if I stayed the course and finished the 2nd year (which I plan do do vie distance ed eventually) my rate of pay jumps by $3/hour (which may not seem like a lot but sure adds up) and my future options open up (once finished I could be director of a daycare center, be a preschool teacher etc as opposed to the role I have now).  Not high end work with big bank account but more stability over all with a decent enough wage.  That is a big difference than the few semesters I have of a BA, since those courses do not translate into anything worth beans to a job.  They are just wasted time and money.  So it would be nice to see the stats that split up the 1-2 year certificate/diploma programs and simply the drop outs because employability, financial security etc is very different.

 

Personally I don't care if my kids go the trades route, a short term diploma or a 4 year degree I just want them to be able to live and support themselves/a family without facing the constant hardships and struggles I face.  Personally I feel trades or 4 year degree are the best options to do that, and I am thankful that at this point both teens agree (so does ds10 as he plans to get a business degree, but I don't talk to him too much about it at this point)

[elegantlion]

Your guy is taking the "Gates" path - he could end up successful with it. Some definitely are!  ;)

 

There are very few kids that fit that mold... there are many in the lower score rankings, but definitely not many in the higher scores unless they opt for family businesses (some do).  I believe it's due to our culture tending to require that piece of paper...

 

 

I wonder how much of it has come from lawsuits... if a company hires someone with that piece of paper they can't be as easily sued when something goes wrong, but if they hire someone without it and something goes wrong...

 

Like Jane, I know many from our generation who have done well in all sorts of jobs without degrees - a mere couple hundred years ago degrees in anything weren't common at all in the populace, but society still survived.  But there are many of those I know who tell me no one new can get hired in their company without that piece of paper... and some have gone back to school themselves as they can't advance without it.

 

I'll fully agree that it isn't right.  I just don't really think it's going to change - esp when the supply of willing workers with a degree is so large.  You'd really have to network and/or know people to snag a job over the competitors.

 

Fairly recently (as in a couple of years ago) my cousin became one of two hired at a small town police force in NY.  No degree was needed (they sent you to training).  However, the only 2 hired out of 40+ applicants were the 2 who had 4 year college degrees.  Coincidence?  I doubt it.  My cousin feels his college debt was worth it and he's quickly paying it off.  (His debt was around the national average.)

 

 

I remember in the mid 80s when the degree issue became more of a requirement. I feel like I got stuck in the gap and now I couldn't probably get interviewed at some of the companies where I previously worked. 

 

I'm one of those "don't do what I did" parents and feel like the shining bad example of how no college can affect your lifestyle. I *feel* adamant that ds will attend college, he will need it for what he wants to do. Yet, he's just as likely to want to join the military which is not the same as no college, but not the vision we've been trying to set before him for years. Part of it's the education, part of it's the magical piece of paper that opens doors. 

 

However, I will add this caveat, opinion, I believe this generation of young people is fantastic. They are redefining what success and networking mean. Couch surfing - networking. Living a minimal lifestyle - success. We could all come up with different examples. I grew up in the 80s, worked in the 90s when success was the corporate job, a big house in the suburbs, and a driving a luxury car. I believe this generation wants different things, they are shying away from the consumerism and embracing a compassion mindset instead of a me mindset. They are doing networking, fundraising, activism on the Internet and touting living in 200 sf homes as a lifestyle. I know that's not everywhere, but it's a rumbling of a shift in what is a "successful lifestyle". They are breaking up the status quo, and I believe this generation of non-college bound students will find their way. 

 

They're smart enough to see through the game of no degree, no job, and the ensuing debt. College is not the only way to become educated, MOOCs, open source classes, these can all be used to peruse an area of interest. They may not get you a job, but they will provide a way to stay in the conversation, but at their own pace. 

 

Every generation defines itself differently. I believe this upcoming group of young people is up to great things, even if it looks differently to us. 

[8filltheheart]

wowzers 25K is an avg instate school cost?

Yes. This depends on the state you live in, but $25000 is fairly close to avg for tuition, room, board, books, fees, etc. for in state students. What you listed is $17,300. Living with a relative is not an option for most students and is another conversation totally.

 

UVA: $22,000

UNC: $22,000

GATech: $22000

UC Berkeley $31000

PennState $29000

Auburn $28,000

 

Just for a sampling.

 

Ds has been offered full tuition at several schools and room, board, and fees alone are around $10,000.

[Gwen in VA]

" I want my children to fit into my family culture, to experience the fun and beauty and advantages of this way of being. "

 

(Sorry, the quote button doesn't work for me on this new site!)

 

But our kids will do things differently than we dd, just like we did things differently than our parents. Family culture changes over time depending on the choices folks make.

 

I am the least-educated person in my family -- with a master's! But ALL of my kids will fit into my family, regardless of their educational choices, because we love them. We think they are amazingly awesome kids, and as parents we are not requiring that they fit our mold.

[Nan in Mass]

"But ALL of my kids will fit into my family, regardless of their educational choices, because we love them. We think they are amazingly awesome kids, and as parents we are not requiring that they fit our mold."  -Gwen

 

(Quote only sometimes works for me on the new board.)

 

It isn't we who are not letting them fit.  It is they who begin to feel out of place or defensive or just somehow stop finding the things we do fun or interesting.  The culture isn't a static thing and the whole family very much revolves around the youngest generation and their pursuits.  I smile every time I think of the things my father has done with his grandchildren.  They have so much they want to share with him.  Perhaps I am worrying needlessly about my own children.  I just know that sometimes the family is rather united in its interests and occupations and no matter how loving and inclusive we are, if someone doesn't share those interests, family gatherings are rather boring and then the family doesn't feel as fun and they begin skipping this gathering and then that one and feeling guilty, and the guilt turns family affairs into sore spots to be avoided, unconsciously, of course.  They gradually grow behind on the news and run into that old problem of having plenty to say to the people one sees ever day but having trouble finding things to talk about with people one sees less often.  And without anyone loving anyone else less or being less accepting of them or less happy to see them or less interested in what they are doing, they are suddenly on the fringes rather than in the middle.  If it happened to everyone, it wouldn't be a problem.  The problem is that some of us continued to stick together past the point where other families tend to move apart : )  And much as I hate to say so, it seems like the family members who have gone to college are able to navigate in and out, coming and going happily as their lives shift towards and away from the family core, while the family members who have not are not as able to come back after an absence.  So far, it hasn't happened to my particular children, college educated or not, but it looked like it was happening to one of them for awhile and I live in fear of it happening again more lastingly, and I've watched it happen to other family members.  It is hard to explain.  I have thought about it a lot, naturally.  The whole family has.  The college part itself doesn't really matter.  I think it is the culture that is the problem - what is considered fun and what is boring (and this shifts - we are playing an awful lot of cribbage now, thanks to oldest, and he introduced Settlers), what is considered polite and what less so (if you don't match it is embarrassing for the one that doesn't match, even if no one else minds), what everyone is currently talking about.  I don't know.  As I said, it is hard to explain.

 

Nan

[Nan in Mass]

Just want to add, Gwen, that I think your reaction was absolutely right to my post was absolutely right and I would have written something similar in your place.  : ) N

[creekland]

But ALL of my kids will fit into my family, regardless of their educational choices, because we love them. We think they are amazingly awesome kids, and as parents we are not requiring that they fit our mold.

 

My kids know that no matter what - any sort of "what," they are always welcome here and will always be loved.

 

I can't imagine a thing that would make me want to disown any of them.  Granted, if addictions or other such things came into play we might have to do a tough love sort of thing, but they would always be accepted and always be loved.

 

We got some of the love returned tonight... I haven't seen youngest in a week and he won't be home tonight until well after I'm asleep, so hubby and I had our Valentine's Dinner at Chick Fil A where he was working - AND he came over IN PUBLIC (in front of peers no less) and gave me a hug.  Getting any sort of hug from him is incredibly rare.  It made my night...  My youngest is growing up.

 

[Nan in Mass]

That is lovely, Creekland!  I am feeling loved, too.  One sent me a huge bunch of flowers and texted me all day about how his new fish were doing, one 3D printed me out a plastic rose (very cool!), and youngest said he would LOVE to have us come take him out to dinner on Valentine's Day.  Oh - and I spent the day making valentines with my little nephew, with elmers and feathers and stickers mixed with lots of hugs and love you so muches.

 

Perhaps, Gwen and Creekland, I am worrying needlessly.  I hope so.

 

Nan

[Nan in Mass]

Thinking some more about the original subject...  I think there is a big difference between pushing college for:

 

- an academically able but disinclined and undecided on a career high schooler

-an academically able but too young to deal with the non-academic aspect student

-an academically UNable high schooler

-an academically able older person

-an academically UNable older person

-an academically brilliant student who may have already outgrown the state college by the end of high school

-an academically able but interested in non-academic careers student.

 

If and which college program is different for all of these.  Some, I think we are all very much in agreement about.  I think the category that causes the most discussion is the first one, the academically able but disinclined and undecided high schooler.  (I happen to think it is a good idea to push that student to go to college but I can at least see why other people might not think it was such a good idea.)  It is difficult to discuss the question of college, though, unless one breaks the different groups apart and unless one is more specific about what sort of college.

 

Nan

[swimmermom3]

There are people of my generation who never attended college who have done well professionally and financially.  I grew up in the industrial Midwest where a number of jobs in the trades paid better than many requiring college degrees.  But this is the past--and maybe the future.  I have read that a number of manufacturers are bringing jobs back to the States.  There are fewer jobs though and these often involve some sort of technological knowledge. Does Whirlpool want its industrial workers to have some college or certifications?  Given the sophisticated electronics that go into appliances today, it would not surprise me.  (I just looked at some job listings on the Whirlpool website.  Technicians need an associate's degree.)

 

Gwen, your son may join the league of successful entrepreneurs who have left college before graduating.  I wish him well! 

 

This thread has taken some odd twists (and personally I am taken aback that some people presume that I lack empathy or that I am of a certain monied class.)  No one suggests college is for all.  No one advocates six figure debt for undergrad.  Everyone wants their children to find satisfying paths in life.

 

Personally I wish that more kids would think about entrepreneurship which is why I do some of the work that I do with youth in my community.  But I was trying to avoid anecdotes and discuss statistics--apparently that backfired.

 

Jane, it's not at all that I think you lack empathy and perhaps "socio-economic" should have been left at just plain "background," but I found it difficult not to think in anecdotes and to dismiss Arizona Mom's comments about debt and linking your degree to a financial benefit. I believe that in good-to-ideal circumstances, the college experience goes far beyond what you end up earning in your career, but I am not sure that is playing out as much as when we were all in college?

 

I understand the importance of running the numbers, but at the heart level it's difficult not to consider the anecdotes; anecdotes are what we know.  The two girls that I counseled last year will be the first in their families to attend college and the degrees they will be pursuing are definitely chosen with financial considerations. Maybe it is not right, but it's how it is.

 

My niece graduated from high school with enough AP and dual enrollment credits so that she will be graduating from college this year after attending for only three years. She has held a job since she was a sophomore in high school. She holds a job and tutors on the side while attending college. She will end up with a degree that incorporates Spanish and anthropology and she has hated most of her college experience, which depresses the heck out of me. My sister and BIL are comfortable with heavy debt loads and discharging those debts in a bankruptcy court when need be. They have encouraged my niece to take the maximum load of debt and I have no idea if they will be able to help at all.

 

The push for students to attend four-year colleges and to obtain that degree, any degree, at any cost, is huge in our area and so many people have felt compelled to buy into that push because anything else is "less."

 

 

[Jane in NC]

 

My niece graduated from high school with enough AP and dual enrollment credits so that she will be graduating from college this year after attending for only three years. She has held a job since she was a sophomore in high school. She holds a job and tutors on the side while attending college. She will end up with a degree that incorporates Spanish and anthropology and she has hated most of her college experience, which depresses the heck out of me. My sister and BIL are comfortable with heavy debt loads and discharging those debts in a bankruptcy court when need be. They have encouraged my niece to take the maximum load of debt and I have no idea if they will be able to help at all.

 

The push for students to attend four-year colleges and to obtain that degree, any degree, at any cost, is huge in our area and so many people have felt compelled to buy into that push because anything else is "less."

 

It is with great trepidation that I wade into this thread again.

 

Student loan debt cannot be discharged in bankruptcy courts.  The lifestyle that your sister and her husband choose is not unique. Your niece's wake-up call, should it arrive, will be painful.

 

Admittedly, I do not have a problem with certain degrees that others dismiss, the Arts for example. But the push to obtain a degree "at any cost" is foreign to me.  We apparently live in different worlds.  Most teens I know locally attend community college and/or schools in the UNC system.  However, most teens in my universe are not completing degrees in a smooth four year track.

 

Some take leave to work and earn money for school.  Others take leave to work and earn money while reconsidering their degree choice.  One of my son's friends dropped out of a Liberal Arts College and is attending a CC for a bio tech degree which will open up job opportunities beyond restaurant work--which is what a lot of the kids I know do.  One young man who finished his four year degree is still a cashier at a local grocery store.  Is his degree useless?  Do his parents need him here for some reason?  Has he not been sufficiently aggressive in searching for jobs?  I don't know because I don't ask people these questions.  It is none of my business unless he wants to tell me about it.  I refuse to assume that his degree was not of value because he is currently working as a cashier.

 

The most difficult challenge that two of my son's friends have faced in their college path is depression.  One dropped out of his first college, went to work doing carpentry.  This gave him a chance to reconfigure his degree path.  He is back in school.

 

The other has had greater challenges.  The traditional college path might have worked under other circumstances.  I don't know.  Returning home to find some part time work while attending the community college has not been easy.  What happens this year when friends graduate and move on? 

 

Where you live, there is a push for kids to attend college at any cost.  Where I live, there is a tendency for kids who do not have convictions of some form to become entangled with alcohol and drugs.  The police report in my small town newspaper lists the names and charges.  This is one reason that I remain so involved in 4-H.  I want to see kids doing positive things and receive positive feedback from adults in their community.  (Brings to mind the young lady with whom I was working last week. At thirteen she told me that no matter happens in life, she can take care of herself by gigging flounder.  And some people think kids don't know the value of hard work!)

 

None of this is easy for teens or their parents. I think that we as parents want to support our kids emotionally which makes the financial piece very hard for some--especially if those parents had created a financial facade. 

 

To my mind, the message is that parents need to be up front with what they can afford.  Students who desire attending college need to find a good fit that is affordable--forget the name game or image contest.  All of us need to have conversations about options.  Not ready for college?  Go crew on a sailboat.  (I know a young man who did this.) Go live with an uncle who has a newborn and be an au pair.  (I know a young woman who did this.) And maybe college is not in the picture.  But if we can help a kid find a path, let's do it.

 

The problem with anecdotes is that they present solutions or problems within a particular situation.  They can speak powerfully, inspiring some to rise above circumstances or to teach painful lessons.  This thread began with a statistical analysis that I believed was getting lost in the anecdotes.  In this post, I have given many anecdotes to you Lisa in part to say yes, I understand aspects of what you are saying, as well as no, we live in different worlds.  Your world is the one that calls for a "degree at any cost"--not mine.  Please do not accuse me of claiming this.

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

The odd thing about such reports is how they seem to assume all of us with degrees will do our own plumbing. I don't know about your town, but my plumber's house is quite a bit larger than ours.

 

Anecdotal, yeah, but it's moved into policy, so that the local county vo-tec here has morphed to become an an academic "academy," and if you want to go through, say, the electrician's apprentice program, that's only at night.

 

Generationally, it's gonna come back to bite us.

[Ms. Riding Hood]

Maybe I should start a new thread, but I wanted to add a little different perspective.  In my family we've talked a bit in the last couple of years of the value of a college education, so I found this thread interesting and good food for thought.  

 

Someone mentioned the assumption that college = success.  That's a fair statement, but even more fundamentally I think the assumption is that college = education.  No doubt there are colleges, or departments within colleges, where real, authentic education takes place.  I think those are the exception rather than the rule (can I, myself, please, please be allowed to enroll in Thomas Aquinas College?? :001_tt1: )  In my  education at a major state university, I feel that I received lots of information about lots of specific things--how to balance a feed ration, how the cow's digestive system works, the various diseases of the bovine specie, etc.--and not much *education*.  I got handed information, and I was quizzed and tested on it.  There were no stimulating lectures and discussions.  There was no real exchange of thought.  There was no training in how to think or reason or speak (well, I did have speech, but I'm talking of the classical ideal.)  Of course I'm only speaking anecdotally ;) because I don't have broad experience in the classrooms of many colleges, but I'm willing to bet that my experience is fairly normal and common.  Perhaps the value of smaller or liberal arts colleges is that they provide this type of educational environment.  I really don't know.  So I suppose I assume, a priori, that college for my children will have little to do with education in the classical sense, and much to do with preparing them to assume a certain role in the working world.  College, then, is a means to an end, rather than a worthy endeavor with intrinsic value.

 

I've never questioned for a moment that each and every one of my kids will go on to a 4-year degree.  It's the expectation I grew up with and the one I've always had for them.  And yet, despite my ideas, I've found myself with a dd who isn't going to go that route.  She's a mediocre student without much motivation.  The one career interest that she has is "something dental".  After researching options, she latched on to dental hygiene--quite firmly and happily.  Other family members keep pushing her to "dream bigger" than that--which she finds hurtful, and only shows how little these people know her.  We've outlined a plan utilizing the 2-year training program at the local CC.  It's the first time in her life I've seen her excited about school and eager for the challenge of gaining entrance (it's competitive) to her program.  If, later on, she should decide to want a four year degree she can pursue a degree completion program.  The whole thing is reasonably priced and will allow her to enter a decent paying profession.  She *could* choose to go to the state U and get a 4-yr degree in dental hygiene, though in the end her career prospects and pay rate would be much the same.  I really, reeeeeally had a hard time letting go of the university idea.  She'd have a bachelor's degree.  She'd be able to say she graduated from So-And-So U.  I figured out that in *my* case, it was about pride and prestige, not about getting a good value or enriching her future with "education".

 

But even beyond that, what concerns me is spending *any* amount of money on higher education that is more about indoctrination in a particular ideology.  It seems the trendy thing everywhere is the inclusion of a "core" curriculum--the idea being that students need "breadth" and exposure to various cultures and disciplines.  While it sounds so noble in principal, and is based in the rich educational traditions of the past, this recent iteration has very little to do with what I would call true education.  In fact, I'd say it's diametrically opposed to true education.  If that's what I get for my $$, I'd rather keep it, thank you very much.  I didn't spend this much time and money, blood-sweat-and-tears, home educating my kids just to pay someone a small fortune to tell them that it was all a bunch of hooey.  Don't misunderstand; my kids have minds and can decide for themselves where they stand on particular issues.  I'm not about protecting or shielding them, or seeing that they only hear a unilateral view.  But at this point, there isn't even room for honest disagreement in many college classrooms.  Dogmatic much, eh?  That's no education, and nothing I find of value. 

 

And finally, as far as the idea of value goes, I've seen sooo many kids going off to colleges who were all about the name of the college.  Many of these are strictly of a local reputation, though some would be tier 1/2 schools of perhaps lesser fame.  They have price tags that rival the Ivies.  Now, if you can find a college that's a great fit, that offers a unique opportunity or program with great job placement--AND you can work out the financials so you don't come away with $200,000 in debt, then I say "great!"  But among the majority that I know of going to *this type* of university, this isn't the case at all.  It seems like with education, kids and parents both seem to have (as I believe someone put it above) a sense of "I'm worth it".  Like no amount of money should prevent Johnny from going wherever his heart desires; as long is it's what he wants, he should have it.  We've lost the idea of being wise consumers--or even consumers at all.  It's more like buying a fancy car that other people can admire and that you can show off.  People don't buy Bentleys or Lamborghinis because they make financial sense or because they are gas efficient, or even because they are comfortable.  It's a status thing.  And when you shell out the big bucks for many of these places, the hard fact is that they do not necessarily offer a better education or a better job placement in the end.  I wonder all.the.time where the people come from who fill these places and where they get their money.  It's quite mind boggling to me.

 

So I didn't meant to disrail the OP's topic, but like I said, it's something that has been coming up with greater frequency around here.