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Expat life- I'm interested


caitlinsmom
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Dh and I have been talking about moving abroad at some point the future.  I've always wanted to live in a 3rd world country helping with medical care (specifically midwifery).  While dh has never felt a strong pull to international life, he has recently felt that the adventure would be worth it. 

 

For those of you who are expats would you please share some of the pros and cons?  What experiences were you prepared/not prepared for?  What country has fit your family best?  Where would you never want to go again?  What has your work situation been like?  How has it effected your family?  What do you wish you knew beforehand?

 

I am just starting the research process so anything you can share would be helpful.

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for us, the pros have way outweighed the cons....

 

the con that surprised me, and shouldn't have, is the likelihood that your dc may choose a different culture to live in.

(and the reason it shouldn't have surprised me is that my dc are second generation world citizens, i've lived in many different countries, and have only been in the same country as my mom for ten of my adult years....)

 

i have far more in common with other world citizens than i do with the citizens of any of my "home" countries....

 

fwiw,

ann

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It's sort of hard to answer your questions because expat life can vary dramatically.  I've lived in three different countries besides the US, usually more than once, and there are so many factors that can affect the experience. It's not just where you live, but why you're there.

 

A few things that might help no matter where or how you go:

 

-The better you speak the language, the more successful you'll likely be (although you can be a successful expat without learning much of the language)

-It helps if you and/or your spouse know how to cook, although it's not absolutely necessary

-Choose a situation that you and your family can deal with- DO YOUR RESEARCH AND PICK SOMETHING RELIABLE

-Learn as much as possible about the place you're going before you go and never stop learning about it while you're there

-Find activities for your children that they enjoy

-Make sure both partners are enthusiastic about the move and have something to do wherever you live

-Moving back "home" can be worse than anything you experience overseas

-If you're going to be on a tight income, reduce or eliminate debt and obligations in the US

-Above all, be flexible.  Always.  Every day.  Even when you feel like you can't. You'll appreciate it when you need flexibility from others.  And a sense of humor is the best.

 

 

Dh and I have done a wide variety of things while we've lived overseas. We've always had a wonderful and challenging time and I much prefer to live outside the US. There are cons, although I think it's very similar to choosing to homeschool.  As an expat, your life is very different from a typical American's life and you'll never be quite like everyone else.  Depending on your point of view, this may be a good thing or a bad thing (I think it's a good thing).

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Look before you leap. Travel to the place(s) you are contemplating living in, many times, at different times of the year. See if there is a need for the work you are interested in doing. Here in Colombia, I doubt there would be a need for that, but in less developed countries, where there is much less medical care available, yes.

 

The thing that hurt our family, severely, was the collapse of the U.S. Dollar. Fortunately, during the past year, it has increased in value, and here in Colombia it is the strongest now that it has been since 2009. The big collapse in the value of the U.S. Dollar was  approximately 2005 or 2006. I can't remember.  We lost a HUGE percentage of our purchasing power. Currency fluctuations will greatly affect your family.

 

Look into inflation in the country you consider living in. Your purchasing power is related to the value of the U.S. Dollar (if your income is in U.S. Dollars) and to local inflation. 

 

Inquire into Visa requirements and whether or not paid employment is permitted, on the type of visa you plan to apply for.

 

NEVER move to a country and then apply for a Visa to live there. I have met several people, during the past 19 years, who moved here and then applied for a visa. Their visas cost them a LOT more money than mine cost and their visas are not as good as my visa.

 

Things that are very simple in the USA can be a bureaucratic nightmare in the 3rd world. Here there has been much elimination of bureaucracy and things are much easier now, but, in other countries,  you might find that something that is trivial in the USA can require multiple trips.

 

Look into the honesty of the banks in the country you contemplate living in. When I was in Venezuela, in 1991, before the banks there collapsed and before Hugo Chavez, i was told that sometimes the employees in a bank steal money coming in, via wire transfers from overseas. I cannot imagine that happening in Colombia.

 

Look into the honesty of the Customs people, in the country you contemplate living in. Here, they are very honest. We have a carton with 2 textbooks for DD, in Colombian Customs, in Bogota, as I write this post. The carton arrived there from Miami today and hopefully it will be released today. Books enter Colombia without paying taxes of any kind. Some countries will charge import duties and taxes on books. If all goes perfectly today, our carton will be shipped overnight, from Bogota to Cali and delivered to our house tomorrow.

 

Move to a country that is very friendly with the USA, if you are Americans.  That would eliminate, for example, Venezuela, Ecuador, Nicaragua etc.  If the government is hostile to the USA, a percentage of the citizens there will be extremely hostile to you.  

 

 GL

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Expat life can be so rewarding if you go into the situation with the understanding of just how different your new life might be. I've lived in several countries and so has my Dh, but last year was the first time we moved overseas with our daughter. As we suspected, it took a while for her to adjust. What has been surprising is how difficult returning to life in U.S. has been for all of us. Because we were only gone a year, I assumed we would have an easy transition back, but it has been very hard for all of us. We are discussing returning to life overseas in the next year or two with a greater understanding of what we will face. Truly, we really enjoyed the closeness we had when we were in China.

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Quoting Amira: "-Moving back "home" can be worse than anything you experience overseas".  Yes, I read, before I moved from the USA to Colombia, that the "culture shock" for an Overseas American moving to the USA can be FAR worse than the "culture shock" they experienced when moving from the USA to another country.  Being an Overseas American changes people.

 

 Oh, you should know about the U.S. Tax and Banking regulations that affect Overseas Americans!  

(1) The USA is one of two countries in the world (the other is in Africa) that taxes citizens on their worldwide income

(2) The banking regulations facing us are complicated.

Here is a link to the web site of American Citizens Abroad where you can read about FATCA and FBAR and other things:

http://americansabroad.org/

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For those of you who are expats would you please share some of the pros and cons?  What experiences were you prepared/not prepared for?  What country has fit your family best?  Where would you never want to go again?  What has your work situation been like?  How has it effected your family?  What do you wish you knew beforehand?

 

I am just starting the research process so anything you can share would be helpful.

 

 

I lived in France, China, Taiwan, California, Hong Kong, then China again.  I loved them all for different reasons - no duds.  In France, China the first time and Taiwan I was on some kind of student/teacher placement, so my visa issues were taken care of.  You need to be aware that countries won't necessarily just hand you a work visa - in general, you will need to have a job before you go or - in some cases - go as a tourist then try to get a job and the relevant visa to go with it (which would be rather nerve-wracking if you are going with your family).  In the later periods of living overseas, I was usually signed onto Husband's work visa as a dependent.

 

Living overseas can be exhausting, particularly if you are living in a foreign language.  Simple things become hard in another language, and you won't have many of the conveniences you are used to (especially in a lesser-developed country).  You have to go with a very open mind, and just not compare to your home country.  It's like learning to ride a horse: if you spend all your time thinking about how much easier, less smelly, more predictable it is to ride a bike, you will never appreciate what is special about your new experience.

 

My children are confident, unflappable and at ease in all kinds of situations.  I think that growing up overseas had an enormous influence on them to the good.  I should say though that Calvin is ambivalent about it: he feels that he doesn't really belong anywhere.  This essay by Pico Iyer explains C's feelings.

 

Things to think about: learning the language to a good level of fluency will make a big difference to your success; buying Third Culture Kids by Pollock will help you to help your children to make successful transitions; think hard about residency if you have children approaching university age - I know one family that has neither established residence in the UK nor in their home state in the US, and is facing high university fees as a consequence.

 

Best of luck

 

L

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Thank you all.  I have read multiple places that the culture shock coming back into the US can be very hard.  You all mentioned this in one way or another.  Why has that been  your experience?

I hadn't thought of the residency/university connection.  Our oldest is only in 6th grade but this plan is years down the road anyway so that is something I will need to consider the closer we get.

 

I read a post on another forum that broke down the budget for an expat in Mexico.  In that post police bribes were included, which honestly I thought was something done only in the movies.  If you've lived in a less welcoming country, have you found this sort of thing (bribes) actually has been part of your life?

 

I have never learned another language (well beyond required HS classes) before.  How much does a language change between say Rosetta Stone and the actual spoken language in a country?  I wouldn't feel comfortable moving without having a decent working knowledge of the language.

 

Cost of living obviously varies widely around the globe, how have you figured out how much to have in savings, income, etc?  We would be debt free but a family of 6 is hardly cheap to support :)

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caitlinsmom wrote: "You all mentioned this in one way or another.  Why has that been  your experience?"  I have not returned to the USA to live and probably I will never live there again, so I can only give you my gut reaction to your question.  Living in a 3rd world country changes people. You will look at what goes on in the USA, and in the world, differently, than you did when you had only lived in the USA.  If you were in the city of Cali, I could put you into 10 taxis, selected at random, and the taxi drivers would know far more about what is going on in Colombia, and in the USA, and in the world, than 10 taxi drivers in the USA would know about what is going on in the USA. The people here, and around the world, watch movies made in the USA, they watch TV programs from the USA, they listen to music made in the USA, they know a lot about life in the USA, even if they have never been there. 

 

Bribes are NOT a way of life here. The traffic police here are not armed, and they are probably the ones that bother people the most, and it might be a good idea to have some cash available, when driving a car or a motorcycle, in case one gets stopped.  The regular police, the military police, the "secret" police (not so secret, but not in uniform), have NEVER caused a problem for me, in 19 years of residence here. The police here are, IMHO, very well trained.

 

Mexico and Venezuela are another issue.  I love Mexico, but there is still a lot of corruption there. And, drug violence. In most 3rd world countries (not just those in Latin America) probably that is the case.

 

I would certainly suggest AVOIDING any area or country with a large population of foreigners. That would include Costa Rica. They drive up the cost of living and the crime. Sometimes, the crime is by one foreigner, against another foreigner.   :-)

 

In your original post you mentioned possibly working as a midwife, so if that is what you want to do, you would probably not want to be in a country where medical care is very advanced, such as in Mexico or Colombia.

 

However, for your own family, that would probably be the opposite, and you would probably want to be in a country like Mexico or Colombia, where excellent medical care is available for your family.

 

It is ILLEGAL for someone to go into a country on a Tourist Visa, set up residence, and then apply for a Residence Visa. I met several people during my 19 years in Colombia,  who did that  and they had to get an attorney, pay a lot of money (Probably the attorney paid a bribe?) and then they got a visa that wasn't as good as mine).

 

Whatever country you might move to you will need to carry a National Identity Card ("Cedula" in Spanish) at all times and produce it if stopped by the police.  There are occasional stops on the streets or highways, where people are required to show their "Cedula" and are subject to search. Honest, law abiding people have no problem with that.  It is very rare, but I have  been frisked a few times over the 19 years. It is a 2 minute inconvenience. Women in Colombia will only be searched if there is a female officer there to do that...

 

I had to show proof of my income, as one of many requirements to get my residence visa. For a family of 6, I am certain that would be a requirement in any civilized country. I also had to go to the local F.B.I. office, get a Fingerprint form, go inside the county jail to get my fingerprints taken, and then send that form, with a Cashiers Check, to the F.B.I. in DC, and have them check me out and return that form to me via FedEx. 

 

OT: Can you believe there are people in the USA who are so stupid that they would send their fingerprints to the F.B.I., in DC, with a hot check? Apparently that had happened...  :-)

 

With regard to Resident tuition for a state university in the USA for your DC. Yes, that's an issue. If you or your DH is not overseas for the military, etc., you will lose your residence status in the USA. That is certainly an issue for my DD who will probably want to go to Texas Tech.

 

Overseas Americans vote in the last state where they lived, before moving overseas. There is an office in the Pentagon that helps delployed military personnel and Overseas Americans with voting information: http://www.fvap.gov/

 

With regard to Spanish, there are differences between Latin American Spanish and the Spanish spoken in Spain. It varies, from the pure Spanish spoken in Colombia, to the "Spanglish" spoken in Puerto Rico. Each country has certain words, phrases, slang, profane words, that may or may not be understood in another country, but 99.9% of the time we can understand people from another country, including Spain. We can even communicate with people from Brazil, where Portuguese is the language, but with quite a bit of difficulty. I have no experience with Rosetta Stone, so I don't know what that sounds like. A week or 2 ago, we were watching a movie made in Mexico, at least partly, and with Mexican Spanish, on the TV. My DD picked that up immediately when the movie began, that it was a different Spanish, but we could understand it. A little tougher for us to understand than Colombian Spanish, but understandable to us. If you were going to go to a Latin American country, it would be good to have a teacher or tutor who is Latin American and for you to watch TV news, etc. for Latin America. CNN en EspaĂƒÂ±ol, Univision in the USA, and I think there is another Spanish language TV network in the USA, but I can't remember the name now.  You can listen to Radio stations in Latin America on the Internet, just as we can listen to radio stations in the USA on the Internet (Streaming Audio). (Some years ago, we listened a lot to a radio station in Anchorage, AK; http://www.kool973.com/)

 

How much income you will need will depend upon whether or not the U.S. Dollar is strong or weak, and your lifestyle. You can live like a millionaire or among poor people, and the cost of living will very accordingly, just as it does in the USA.  Medical care, dental care, and services cost much less than they do in the USA. Things you buy in stores may cost about the same here. Or, more...  Prices here include a 16% VAT tax called "IVA" in Spanish. Cars cost more here. Used cars cannot be imported into Colombia. 

 

An advantage to Mexico is that you can drive your car from the USA to Mexico, if your visa has provisions for a car. I knew someone who moved to Belize and he drove his car(s) down there from the states. He left Belize, after his house (in a rural area) was burned to the ground (Arson) and he moved back to the states.

 

Someone who is a foreigner in a country is a guest in that country. If you respect the people in your host country, they will respect you and they will be happy to have you living in their country. Someone who is outside the USA should not expect things to be just like they are in the USA. Sometimes it takes a little patience and sense of humor. My wife is Colombian and if there is a problem, over the years, she will send me to the office, or have me call, because she believes they will give more priority to me complaining than to her complaining.  :-)

 

A lot of people in Colombia are highly educated and there is a very large "Middle Class" here and many people here can speak English, but it is not their obligation to know or speak English. They always appreciate and are tolerant of my Spanglish.   :-)

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In my experience, Rosetta Stone will do practically nothing for you.  You might learn some useful vocabulary, but I think there are better resources that are much cheaper. If you already have RS in the language you want, it wouldn't hurt to use it.  For something easy to use, I think Pimsleur does more for less.  But I think most language learning happens in country anyway. I honestly think you can have less than you want of a language when you first arrive in country and be fine as long as you're planning on continuing to work on it.

 

We've lived in two countries with corruption (Mexico and Kyrgyzstan), but we've never paid a bribe ourselves. You'll find wildly differing opinions on whether you ought to pay bribes if asked (or hinted). Even if you do end up paying some, I'd be very surprised if it were enough to throw your budget off.

 

It can be really hard to get a sense of the cost of living in a new country, especially if you're looking to live outside the capital or major cities. I think the best advice I can give you is that you will have major control over your budget depending on the type of housing you choose, how much traveling you do, if you're buying imported food, if you hire household help, how much of your own cooking you do, etc. If at all possible, try to find someone who lives where you want to you go see how much they spend. Their estimates may not actually be helpful, but if you can get a sense of whether they're frugal or bigger spenders, it might tell you something.

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It sounds like you should travel abroad as a tourist with an eye for moving abroad.  Your questions sound very naive.  I'm not trying to be insulting saying that, it's fine to be naive.  I think the best way to inform yourself is to get a tiny taste for it before you actually jump into your whole plan with both feet.

 

Living in other countries shifts your frame of reference for virtually everything you see and do.  The changes aren't always noticable to you when you are in the other culture, but when you return to your "home" culture in the USA the changes make you fit like a square peg into the round hole you left behind.

 

There is an insular nature to the USA that is hard to understand until you are outside of it.

 

Yes, some places bribing is very real.  You can refuse to be a part of it, but it may make your life very difficult.

 

Being fluent in another language is hard to do until you are immersed in it.  Studying for a few years at a college level beforehand would make a huge dent in the hurdle, but there is the pain of having to transition your brain to thinking in the other language and the exhaustion of translating everything all the time until you finally get to the place where you realize you aren't doing it that way anymore and things really are clicking. 

 

FWIW, if you want to go to a 3rd world country for a couple of years to "save" people with your midwifery expertise, I think it'd be good to reconsider your motives and plan.  If your skills would be that necessary, then your expertise would likely be better served training native people in your skills, so your gift can multiply many times over.  The difference between giving a man a fish and teaching him to fish, sort of thing.  Also, your language barrier and cultural barriers would likely be less of a problem in teaching others than it would be in establishing new relationships with each client throughout your time. YMMV.

 

ETA:  I hope that all didn't sound discouraging - living abroad has been key to who I am and I have loved what it has brought to my life.  I think every American should do it if they have the means to do it.  Things that are wonderful aren't always easy, though.

 

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Bribes are definitely part of life here but they are usually small enough that no one raises a fuss over them. Honestly, the police hassle the locals here for bribes more than the expats. The expats are more likely to say no.

 

Living overseas has changed me forever. It has been an amazing experience for my kids too. They have such a global perspective about life now. I agree about the TCK syndrome, and it is true for adults too. I don't feel like Malaysia is really my "home" but I don't feel like America really is either. In some ways it is a very liberated feeling and in others I feel a little unmoored.

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Corruption is a way of life here.

 

For us, living in India has been an amazing experience.  But there are hard days.  What helps in our situation is that this is DHs native country and there is a connection to the place, the people that extends beyond just our choice to live here.

 

The most important thing - do NOT assume that living abroad means saving money.  Even if you move to a developing country.  What we spend to have a nice house, send the kids to good schools, eat at the restaurants we want to eat at, buy the groceries we want to buy...brings our cost of living up to US levels.  But the salaries are NOT at US levels.

 

Have a job in hand before you go.  That will take care of the Visa issue and the work issue.  Do not assume that you will be able to find good employment because you are an American or because your English is good...that is not enough in many places.

 

I would not trade these last 8 years for anything in the world.  My children are who they are because of the fact that they grew up abroad, are comfortable in two cultures.

 

Of course, we now face the fact that in the future DD will go to college in the US and we have to decide whether or not to move back with her.  But all of our friends for this significant part of our lives are here in India.  That will be hard.

 

Good luck on your investigation!!

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Thank you all.  I have read multiple places that the culture shock coming back into the US can be very hard.  You all mentioned this in one way or another.  Why has that been  your experience?

I hadn't thought of the residency/university connection.  Our oldest is only in 6th grade but this plan is years down the road anyway so that is something I will need to consider the closer we get.

 

I read a post on another forum that broke down the budget for an expat in Mexico.  In that post police bribes were included, which honestly I thought was something done only in the movies.  If you've lived in a less welcoming country, have you found this sort of thing (bribes) actually has been part of your life?

 

I have never learned another language (well beyond required HS classes) before.  How much does a language change between say Rosetta Stone and the actual spoken language in a country?  I wouldn't feel comfortable moving without having a decent working knowledge of the language.

 

Cost of living obviously varies widely around the globe, how have you figured out how much to have in savings, income, etc?  We would be debt free but a family of 6 is hardly cheap to support :)

 

It took the boys quite a while to settle into Scotland - they had lived in Asia all their lives.  It was probably a year before they were able fully to appreciate their new home.  Things that helped: talking about their previous life in Asia, so they didn't feel that it had been forgotten or discounted; making up a nice photo album of people and places in Asia, so they could remember when they wanted to; going back to visit a year later.

 

I had ten years of French (including a degree) before I went to live in France.  This was a good level for going in.  When I moved to China I had no Chinese at all, but I started immediately with intensive Chinese lessons (one-on-one) and worked really hard at it.  I coped, just about, that year.  I then moved to Taiwan and spent two years studying Chinese in a college (supporting myself by teaching English) and at the end I had enough Chinese to work in a Chinese-speaking office.  If you are  wanting to work as a mid-wife in a non-English-speaking country, this is the kind of level of the language that I think would be necessary, unless you work with a translator.

 

I didn't come across bribery issues in China, Taiwan or France.  In Chinese Asia, there's a lot of you'll-scratch-my-back, and bribery certainly exists in business, but I didn't come across it in my personal life.

 

Cost of living: find an expat forum that is specific to the country that you are interested in, and ask for income levels there.  Remember: if you live as an American, then life will be very expensive.  If you really need a specific American breakfast cereal or moisturiser, then you will have to be prepared to pay up to five times the US price for it.  If, however, you live/eat as local people do, your life will be much cheaper (and probably more fulfilling).  

 

Into that cost of living, you need to factor health care, including evacuation insurance and continuing insurance in your home country if you might end up there.  This will be country-dependent: Western Europe has excellent health care, whereas when we lived in China, we had full expat (not vacation) insurance, including evacuation and continuing care.  As a small example: Hobbes broke his arm in China and it needed setting with a metal pin under general anaesthetic.  We decided that we were not happy with the local (provincial) hospital, so flew him out to Hong Kong.

 

It is ILLEGAL for someone to go into a country on a Tourist Visa, set up residence, and then apply for a Residence Visa. 

 

These systems are country-dependent.  In both China and Taiwan, husband or I went in on tourist visas, got jobs (and the necessary paperwork) exited the country and obtained working visas in the nearest consulate, then reentered.

 

L

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We were able to maintain residency in Louisiana by filing state tax forms every year, and keeping a LA voter registration and driver's license. We registered our daughter as a homeschooler in LA, although we lived in Ecuador. She received a state scholarship that covers her tuition. We had to submit copies of everything, and a letter from our m board.

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Or a person of a different culture to marry.

 

I am not an Expat, but my parents were and I grew up overseas.

 

Transition back to the US was very difficult.  Thankfully I went to a Christian college where I found ALL the missionary kids within 2 days' time and hung out with them.  I kid you not.   Those of us girls who grew up in countries where we wore Kangas/Sarongs, wore them around the dorms.  I found out at the end of my freshman year that we were known as "those girls who wear the sheets!"  :lol:

 

I am in my late 40s now and my best friends to this day are STILL those who are not "typical Americans."  Those who are either International or have spend significant time overseas are still who I gravitate to and find I have the most in common with.  

 

I feel my life was greatly enriched by my growing up overseas, but it has made it difficult to do some things, like fit in to some social situations.  That is overall fine with me. Some people I don't want/need to fit in with, but I always feel a bit different.

 

Dawn

 

 

for us, the pros have way outweighed the cons....

 

the con that surprised me, and shouldn't have, is the likelihood that your dc may choose a different culture to live in.

(and the reason it shouldn't have surprised me is that my dc are second generation world citizens, i've lived in many different countries, and have only been in the same country as my mom for ten of my adult years....)

 

i have far more in common with other world citizens than i do with the citizens of any of my "home" countries....

 

fwiw,

ann

 

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My sister's family spent two years in Romania (but over the mountains near the Hungarian border so the culture is much more Hungarian than Romanian where they were) followed by two years in Belgium.  Belgium was easier, but they loved Romania so much.  They took Romanian classes before going, but even so the first few months they were totally still learning the language.  They want to go back to Europe.  They loved it.  Coming back to the US was hard in some ways.  If they had come back right after being in Romania it would have been harder.  She kept a blog the whole time, but unfortunately it is set to private.

 

One of my friends just moved to Switzerland in December.  She keeps an open blog about their adjustment to Swiss life.  http://swissflakes.blogspot.com/  Her husband works for the USDA so this is the third stint they've done outside the US.  They did Brazil and then India before.

 

Neither my sister nor my friend homeschools.  My friend has her kids in an international school.  My nephew went to a regular preschool in Romania (school doesn't start there until age 7 and he was younger than that) and an American School in Belgium.

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We were able to maintain residency in Louisiana by filing state tax forms every year, and keeping a LA voter registration and driver's license. We registered our daughter as a homeschooler in LA, although we lived in Ecuador. She received a state scholarship that covers her tuition. We had to submit copies of everything, and a letter from our m board.

 

Not speaking just to you, but anyone...

I don't really understand how this works (practically and "morally"). I assume it works.  We file taxes every year, but claim foreign residency and are therefore under different rules.  If someone wanted to claim (pretend?) they were residing in a specific state, wouldn't they then lose the foreign residency status?  And because of how it works out, none of our paycheck actually goes into the state tax revenue, is it "fair" then for us to get in-state tuition?

 

I am a "super rule follower", so have a hard time getting my mind around claiming one thing federally, but then trying to get around that in order to get in-state tuition.  Does everybody do this?  If my ds, for example, applies for in-state tuition, how is that going to work if he's living overseas up until he goes?  Doesn't anybody actually check, or am I being stupid? 

 

A lot of people have talked to me about ways around this, but the little voice inside me just keeps saying a) it's not "right" and b ) something will go wrong.  Going about it this way is so against my nature, lol.  I'm the one sitting at a red light for ten minutes at 3 o-clock in the morning at a completely deserted intersection, waiting for the light to turn green...

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Or a person of a different culture to marry.

 

I am not an Expat, but my parents were and I grew up overseas.

 

Transition back to the US was very difficult.  Thankfully I went to a Christian college where I found ALL the missionary kids within 2 days' time and hung out with them.  I kid you not.   Those of us girls who grew up in countries where we wore Kangas/Sarongs, wore them around the dorms.  I found out at the end of my freshman year that we were known as "those girls who wear the sheets!"  :lol:

 

I am in my late 40s now and my best friends to this day are STILL those who are not "typical Americans."  Those who are either International or have spend significant time overseas are still who I gravitate to and find I have the most in common with.  

 

I feel my life was greatly enriched by my growing up overseas, but it has made it difficult to do some things, like fit in to some social situations.  That is overall fine with me. Some people I don't want/need to fit in with, but I always feel a bit different.

 

Dawn

 

I lived abroad for 10 years and had my oldest two while living abroad. My oldest was nearly seven when we moved here. It was a huge culture shock for her that I didn't expect. She lost her friends, her supports, and everything that was comfortable and familiar to her. Everyone looked at her and thought she was just another American, but she wasn't, and that added another factor to the adjustment. 

 

I would LOVE to go live somewhere again, but from our experience last time and knowing the personality of one of our younger children and how out of sorts she was just visiting another country last year, I would be very careful about this decision. Plus, now, I have older relatives to worry about, too, and that would be the biggest thing to hold me back.

 

I think what I'd really like is to go stay somewhere for two months in the summer. Please someone, give me ideas!!!!

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Not speaking just to you, but anyone...

I don't really understand how this works (practically and "morally"). I assume it works. We file taxes every year, but claim foreign residency and are therefore under different rules. If someone wanted to claim (pretend?) they were residing in a specific state, wouldn't they then lose the foreign residency status? And because of how it works out, none of our paycheck actually goes into the state tax revenue, is it "fair" then for us to get in-state tuition?

 

I am a "super rule follower", so have a hard time getting my mind around claiming one thing federally, but then trying to get around that in order to get in-state tuition. Does everybody do this? If my ds, for example, applies for in-state tuition, how is that going to work if he's living overseas up until he goes? Doesn't anybody actually check, or am I being stupid?

 

A lot of people have talked to me about ways around this, but the little voice inside me just keeps saying a) it's not "right" and b ) something will go wrong. Going about it this way is so against my nature, lol. I'm the one sitting at a red light for ten minutes at 3 o-clock in the morning at a completely deserted intersection, waiting for the light to turn green...

Yeah, I agree. Maybe it's an individual state thing? We file a foreign income tax exemption and because we are well under the limit, we pay no federal taxes on our income. On our state return we are listed as a "nonresident filer". But we still vote Michigan and have Michigan drivers licenses. I am not sure how you can do both... File foreign tax status for federal and resident for state. My tax software wouldn't let me do that. It automatically changes it for me.

 

But maybe it is different for missionaries since their income usually comes from the US rather than the country they are stationed in?

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I have heard the problem of re-entry explained this way:

 

Imagine you are a circle.  You live in circle land and everyone around you are circles.

 

You move to square land.  You don't ever become a square, but being around squares all the time starts to transform you....and you become a triangle.

 

You move home.  You are now a triangle in circle land.  Everyone expects you to be a circle, act like a circle, feel like a circle because you were a circle before you left.  But the experience in square land changed you and now you don't quire "fit" in circle land.  You feel different.

 

This is the best explanation I have heard about being a returned expat.

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Not speaking just to you, but anyone...

I don't really understand how this works (practically and "morally"). I assume it works. We file taxes every year, but claim foreign residency and are therefore under different rules. If someone wanted to claim (pretend?) they were residing in a specific state, wouldn't they then lose the foreign residency status? And because of how it works out, none of our paycheck actually goes into the state tax revenue, is it "fair" then for us to get in-state tuition?

 

I am a "super rule follower", so have a hard time getting my mind around claiming one thing federally, but then trying to get around that in order to get in-state tuition. Does everybody do this? If my ds, for example, applies for in-state tuition, how is that going to work if he's living overseas up until he goes? Doesn't anybody actually check, or am I being stupid?

 

A lot of people have talked to me about ways around this, but the little voice inside me just keeps saying a) it's not "right" and b ) something will go wrong. Going about it this way is so against my nature, lol. I'm the one sitting at a red light for ten minutes at 3 o-clock in the morning at a completely deserted intersection, waiting for the light to turn green...

It depends on your situation and what state you're a resident of. Some US expats have to declare a state of residency, and it's not uncommon for a resident to not actually live in the state. There is a lot more to establishing residency for tuition purposes that simply living in the state. It can be perfectly legal and ethical to get in-state tuition even if you've never lived in the state- you just have to weigh the pros and cons.

 

Some states require a long list of things to prove residency- owning property and paying state taxes (which some states will come after fanatically, no matter where you live) are two common ones. Virginia is one state that is very difficult to not pay income taxes to if you have any ties there, no matter where you actually reside in the world (and, sometimes, even if you're exempt from federal taxes). If I were a Virginia resident, I'd have no problem accepting in-state tuition if I'd been paying state taxes.

 

Sometimes we've kept a state of residency when we've been overseas, and sometimes we haven't. It just depends on our situation.

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I really like Cammie's squares and triangles analogy. It's definitely true, although it's not too much of a problem for me since I never felt like a circle in the first place.

 

What is hardest for me is that I feel like I leave huge pieces of my heart in other countries. Sure, everyone expects me to love and miss Jerusalem after living there twice and some people care that I've been there, but hardly anyone thinks I should miss Kyrgyzstan. But there's just as huge a hole inside of me from not being in Kyrgyzstan as there is not being in Jerusalem. And now I'm falling in love with Mexico and I know I can't stay here forever and I'll miss it forever when I have to leave.

 

So every time I'm in the US, I'm missing all of these places, and I don't even get to be in a new place, because falling in love with a new country is immeasurably better for me than being in the US. And it's worst of all right after I move back to the US.

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It sounds like you should travel abroad as a tourist with an eye for moving abroad.  Your questions sound very naive.  I'm not trying to be insulting saying that, it's fine to be naive.  I think the best way to inform yourself is to get a tiny taste for it before you actually jump into your whole plan with both feet.

 

Living in other countries shifts your frame of reference for virtually everything you see and do.  The changes aren't always noticable to you when you are in the other culture, but when you return to your "home" culture in the USA the changes make you fit like a square peg into the round hole you left behind.

 

There is an insular nature to the USA that is hard to understand until you are outside of it.

 

Yes, some places bribing is very real.  You can refuse to be a part of it, but it may make your life very difficult.

 

Being fluent in another language is hard to do until you are immersed in it.  Studying for a few years at a college level beforehand would make a huge dent in the hurdle, but there is the pain of having to transition your brain to thinking in the other language and the exhaustion of translating everything all the time until you finally get to the place where you realize you aren't doing it that way anymore and things really are clicking. 

 

FWIW, if you want to go to a 3rd world country for a couple of years to "save" people with your midwifery expertise, I think it'd be good to reconsider your motives and plan.  If your skills would be that necessary, then your expertise would likely be better served training native people in your skills, so your gift can multiply many times over.  The difference between giving a man a fish and teaching him to fish, sort of thing.  Also, your language barrier and cultural barriers would likely be less of a problem in teaching others than it would be in establishing new relationships with each client throughout your time. YMMV.

 

ETA:  I hope that all didn't sound discouraging - living abroad has been key to who I am and I have loved what it has brought to my life.  I think every American should do it if they have the means to do it.  Things that are wonderful aren't always easy, though.

 

I am naive. :)  48 hours into my research allows me to be naive a bit.  All of my questions thus far have been asked based on questions I have seen on other message boards.  I've never known anyone to spend any sort of time outside the US nor I've never traveled outside the US.  That kind of keeps me in the naive category.  However that is why I am asking questions now.  I don't know what country we want to go to, when we want to do it, or any other sort of important information.  Once we narrow down which country we want to live in, I am sure as we continue on my questions will become much more intelligent.  We do plan to take a couple of vacations before moving anywhere.

 

As for midwifery-  No, I don't plan to save anyone.  In fact a couple of non-profits I have looked at go abroad specifically to train women in the skill so as to help their own communities.  I would rather, as you say, train someone to fish than give them a fish. 

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Dh and I have been talking about moving abroad at some point the future.  I've always wanted to live in a 3rd world country helping with medical care (specifically midwifery).  While dh has never felt a strong pull to international life, he has recently felt that the adventure would be worth it. 

 

For those of you who are expats would you please share some of the pros and cons?  What experiences were you prepared/not prepared for?  What country has fit your family best?  Where would you never want to go again?  What has your work situation been like?  How has it effected your family?  What do you wish you knew beforehand?

 

I am just starting the research process so anything you can share would be helpful.

 

I think the pros and cons really depend on who you are talking to, their nationality, and where they are living as expats.  We are Canadians who moved to the UAE.  We moved here because I wanted to live abroad and DH came across a job opportunity here.  Dubai would not have been my first choice as the city had none of the things that would usually attract me to a place - like historical buildings, famous foods, lovely nature parks.  But we went because he got the job easily and other opportunities seemed to involve a lot more red tape.  The first and most important pro about living in Dubai is the high salary/benefits packages and zero taxes.  Another pro is that travelling to Asia, Africa and Europe from the middle east is cheaper and faster compared to similar flights out of Canada.  I like the diversity of people here, the variety of restaurants.  I love the weather in the winter and the beaches.  Cons... as non-nationals we don't have the same rights, I miss certain foods and customs from home. I worry about what would happen if DH loses his job and we are given only a month or two to move.  We can't contribute to an RRSPs or RESPs.  Property values are so high here that we likely will never own a home.  We can never ever be citizens so there is a sense of impermanence... like I don't want to paint my walls because it seems silly to spend money on that when we might not live here for more than a year or two.  That feeling is very hard to live with.    

 

With my children and husband I've only ever lived in Canada and the UAE.  Right now, the UAE is the right place for us.  I love it here.  How has it affected family... my mother and MIL miss us.  But they get excited when they come and visit.  We go home to see them for a month every summer.  When we are done in the UAE, we do not plan on returning to Canada right away.  We will retire in Canada, probably.             

 

Re: Culture shock...

 

I was a third culture kid.  I grew up in Germany though I was Canadian.  I had a very tough time adjusting to life when I moved back to Canada because the customs and norms were different.  Fashion was different, slang was different.  I was not cool.  I went from being normal to weird.  I spent a lot of time trying to go back to being an expat, even though I didn't realize what I was doing.  I tried for a while to get my mom to send me off to boarding school in Switzerland.  ;) 

 

As a teen I spent a year in Brazil and once again coming back to Canada was hard.  I went from being relatively wealthy and "special" to a lower middle class average person who talked about brazil too much. Went from having new experiences everyday to an average boring life.  I went from lots of freedom to being underage again.  It was hard.  Some of this was also because I moved from a small town with not much going on, to a big city with lots of awesome things to explore, back to the small town.  I'm a city person so going back to a town with very few activities for teens didn't help getting re-acclimatized.  The other expats I met in Brazil as a teen are still my friends. 

 

Bribes are not a thing in Dubai.  

 

Re: Language... I learnt enough Portuguese to get by in only 3 months, but that's because no one I lived with or spoke with could communicate well in English so I had to learn.  I also spoke some french so I had another romance language that helped with understanding some of the vocab.  I think its great to take a few courses before going someplace, but true fluency will either take years of study or immersion.  

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So every time I'm in the US, I'm missing all of these places, and I don't even get to be in a new place, because falling in love with a new country is immeasurably better for me than being in the US. And it's worst of all right after I move back to the US.

 

 

You move home.  You are now a triangle in circle land.  Everyone expects you to be a circle, act like a circle, feel like a circle because you were a circle before you left.  But the experience in square land changed you and now you don't quire "fit" in circle land.  You feel different.

 

This is the best explanation I have heard about being a returned expat.

 

Its really affirming to know that there are people who understand this and can word it in a better way than I can.  This is pretty much exactly how I felt.  :)

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We did not hide anything. Maybe it differs from state to state. We filed federal taxes on foreign earned income, and also filed state tax forms. The state scholarship board had access to FAFSA, as did the university, so both had our federal tax info,   showing that we lived in Ecuador. I also communicated with both by phone and email, and they knew the whole story.

In fact, I think having a drivers license and voter registration depend on being considered a resident of that state,  so having those implies that you are maintaining residency.

 

Not speaking just to you, but anyone...

I don't really understand how this works (practically and "morally"). I assume it works.  We file taxes every year, but claim foreign residency and are therefore under different rules.  If someone wanted to claim (pretend?) they were residing in a specific state, wouldn't they then lose the foreign residency status?  And because of how it works out, none of our paycheck actually goes into the state tax revenue, is it "fair" then for us to get in-state tuition?

 

I am a "super rule follower", so have a hard time getting my mind around claiming one thing federally, but then trying to get around that in order to get in-state tuition.  Does everybody do this?  If my ds, for example, applies for in-state tuition, how is that going to work if he's living overseas up until he goes?  Doesn't anybody actually check, or am I being stupid? 

 

A lot of people have talked to me about ways around this, but the little voice inside me just keeps saying a) it's not "right" and b ) something will go wrong.  Going about it this way is so against my nature, lol.  I'm the one sitting at a red light for ten minutes at 3 o-clock in the morning at a completely deserted intersection, waiting for the light to turn green...

 

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I found this on Collegeboard.com

 

Are there special requirements for U.S. citizens living abroad?
U.S. citizens currently living abroad who seek admission to a public university in a state where their family has existing ties may be eligible for in-state tuition. If the student and/or student's family own real property in that state, are registered to vote there, file a resident income tax return, hold a state driver's license or motor vehicle registration, and can demonstrate prior residence of at least 12 months, he or she may qualify for state residency for tuition purposes. Such cases are determined individually.

 

 

 

Thanks for your comments, cricket, it doesn't really make sense to me logically but that doesn't mean anything, does it?  lol  I wonder if it's a state-by-state thing, there are so many possible variables coming into play now that we are in the high school years...

 

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