Lukeion Latin?

[skimomma]

Cross-posted in the Logic Stage board.

 

Has anyone's child taken the Lukeion Latin classes as early as 6th grade?  If so, I have more questions for you but will refrain from asking until I know there is someone out there to ask.

[OhioMomof3]

My sixth grader is taking Latin 1 through Lukeion this year.  It's a challenging course, but it is doable. 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

My son was 8th grade when he started. Our neighbor had a 7th grader in the Latin 1 course.

 

Much depends on the student, their language background, grammar background and ability to work hard.  It may be one of the hardest high school Latin programs out there. (I've heard that Lone Pine also uses Wheelock's.) 

 

To give you an idea of pace, the class generally covers a chapter per week. There are 15-30 sentences plus a paragraph or two in translation each week. There is an online quiz each week (which includes verb and noun exercises and translation as well as questions that require students to match words or phrases to grammatical concepts - such as identifying the case of each noun in a list). The tests are time limited and my kids have sometimes needed every minute.

 

The other consideration is the pace. The class is tied to a weekly schedule of online classes. There is a midterm and a short break in each semester (spring break and Thanksgiving). But other than that, the schedule does not allow for extra time while the student catches us or is sick or is traveling. We have sat in Starbucks and Chick-Fil-A using their Wi-Fi so my sons could take Latin quizes while we were traveling. The first semester final always lands on the same weekend as a major swim meet, so my swimmer has his flashcards and Latin book for evening study in the hotel room.

 

Not the experience of a 6th grader, but I hope some info that helps you decide what will work for your kid.

[skimomma]

My sixth grader is taking Latin 1 through Lukeion this year.  It's a challenging course, but it is doable. 

 

What was your child's Latin and grammar background?

 

Would you consider your child accelerated and/or gifted?

 

Has your child ever taken a non-mommy class before this?

 

Sorry for all of the questions!  I am data gathering for figuring out next year's plan.

[skimomma]

My son was 8th grade when he started. Our neighbor had a 7th grader in the Latin 1 course.

 

Much depends on the student, their language background, grammar background and ability to work hard.  It may be one of the hardest high school Latin programs out there. (I've heard that Lone Pine also uses Wheelock's.) 

 

To give you an idea of pace, the class generally covers a chapter per week. There are 15-30 sentences plus a paragraph or two in translation each week. There is an online quiz each week (which includes verb and noun exercises and translation as well as questions that require students to match words or phrases to grammatical concepts - such as identifying the case of each noun in a list). The tests are time limited and my kids have sometimes needed every minute.

 

The other consideration is the pace. The class is tied to a weekly schedule of online classes. There is a midterm and a short break in each semester (spring break and Thanksgiving). But other than that, the schedule does not allow for extra time while the student catches us or is sick or is traveling. We have sat in Starbucks and Chick-Fil-A using their Wi-Fi so my sons could take Latin quizes while we were traveling. The first semester final always lands on the same weekend as a major swim meet, so my swimmer has his flashcards and Latin book for evening study in the hotel room.

 

Not the experience of a 6th grader, but I hope some info that helps you decide what will work for your kid.

This is all very helpful!  

 

My dd has a pretty solid Latin and grammar background.  It is the maturity and/or non-mommy-class aspect that has me a little concerned.  She has been homeschooled from day one and I have never employed tests/exams/etc.....  She is very responsible and mature for her age but not necessarily gifted.  She did take the Latin placement test on their website.  The site says a score of 70 or above indicates "readiness" for Latin 1.  She got a 92% and had no trouble with the online test format or manipulating it without help.

 

We also travel a lot.  Dd is in a travel sport and we will be out of the country for part of the next school year.  But we are also quite tech-savvy and have the gear/knowledge for her to access the class as needed.  Time zones might be a bigger problem.

 

It looks like your ds is now in Latin 2?  Dd likes Latin now and thinks she is interested in continuing it all the way through Latin 4.  Keeping in mind that I am dealing with a 10yo who may not really understand what that means or how challenging it could get, I am wary about setting her up for failure in the future.  Latin 3 and 4 look pretty intense and might require maturity that a 13/14 yo might struggle with.  What is your take on the acceleration so far?  Does your son (or you) feel like he is ready to tackle Latin 3 and beyond?

[Sebastian (a lady)]

This is all very helpful!  

 

My dd has a pretty solid Latin and grammar background.  It is the maturity and/or non-mommy-class aspect that has me a little concerned.  She has been homeschooled from day one and I have never employed tests/exams/etc.....  She is very responsible and mature for her age but not necessarily gifted.  She did take the Latin placement test on their website.  The site says a score of 70 or above indicates "readiness" for Latin 1.  She got a 92% and had no trouble with the online test format or manipulating it without help.

 

We also travel a lot.  Dd is in a travel sport and we will be out of the country for part of the next school year.  But we are also quite tech-savvy and have the gear/knowledge for her to access the class as needed.  Time zones might be a bigger problem.

 

It looks like your ds is now in Latin 2?  Dd likes Latin now and thinks she is interested in continuing it all the way through Latin 4.  Keeping in mind that I am dealing with a 10yo who may not really understand what that means or how challenging it could get, I am wary about setting her up for failure in the future.  Latin 3 and 4 look pretty intense and might require maturity that a 13/14 yo might struggle with.  What is your take on the acceleration so far?  Does your son (or you) feel like he is ready to tackle Latin 3 and beyond?

 

We haven't decided what the language plan going forward will be. That's actually on the table for the next couple of weeks. Right now, both older boys take Latin 2 and German 2 (through Oklahoma State University). But I'm looking to create some room for the oldest to do more computer programming. I'm not sure where that time will come from.

 

The online classes are recorded. But it is possible that there could be a glitch with a recording. In that case, students are supposed to be able to continue using the book.

 

For your planning purposes, there are three online contact points. One for the class, one for the homework (by the Friday after class) and one for the quiz (by the Monday after the class). The class runs a little over an hour. The homework takes my sons between a couple and several hours to complete. It takes about 15-30 min to submit, using the Quia website. The quiz lasts about an hour (I think the clock actually is set for 1:15). A couple times they have taken the full time period or even not had time for the bonus translation.

 

I do think they have learned a phenomenal amount of Latin as well as English grammar. They have also learned diligence and bouncing back after lack of study brings poor performance as a natural consequence. I would call it rewarding but relentless.

 

I do really appreciate the Barr's attitude that deadlines are deadlines and strong results requires hard work. The tip sheet for how to get the best results out of Latin and Greek that Amy sent at the beginning of class was 25 pages long and chock full of good suggestions and observations.

 

But something that is a good choice eventually might burn out a younger student.

 

There are a few spring 2014 workshops on history that are still available. That might give you a sense of how well the online class format will work for your family. Though it is still a question of how your son would do with the homework and quizzes.

 

I have also found the Barr's very open to questions. They want their students to have goals that match what they are offering. So if you have questions about the classes, do email and ask.

 

Another thing you might do is get a copy of Wheelock's (the class uses the new 7th edition, but there are often 6th editions in libraries and used book stores) and have your kid try out the first couple of chapters. Would he be able to do a chapter a week (including the end of chapter translations)?

 

FWIW, the FAQ at Lukeion gives the guidance that students in their semester long courses should be working at the high school level.  That doesn't necessarily mean high school age. On the other hand, there was an article recently by Amy Barr on why they suggest students wait until high school for Latin study.  It boiled down to the fact that in their experience, years of earlier Latin study didn't result in deeper or better Latin ability.

 

[skimomma]

We haven't decided what the language plan going forward will be. That's actually on the table for the next couple of weeks. Right now, both older boys take Latin 2 and German 2 (through Oklahoma State University). But I'm looking to create some room for the oldest to do more computer programming. I'm not sure where that time will come from.

 

The online classes are recorded. But it is possible that there could be a glitch with a recording. In that case, students are supposed to be able to continue using the book.

 

For your planning purposes, there are three online contact points. One for the class, one for the homework (by the Friday after class) and one for the quiz (by the Monday after the class). The class runs a little over an hour. The homework takes my sons between a couple and several hours to complete. It takes about 15-30 min to submit, using the Quia website. The quiz lasts about an hour (I think the clock actually is set for 1:15). A couple times they have taken the full time period or even not had time for the bonus translation.

 

I do think they have learned a phenomenal amount of Latin as well as English grammar. They have also learned diligence and bouncing back after lack of study brings poor performance as a natural consequence. I would call it rewarding but relentless.

 

I do really appreciate the Barr's attitude that deadlines are deadlines and strong results requires hard work. The tip sheet for how to get the best results out of Latin and Greek that Amy sent at the beginning of class was 25 pages long and chock full of good suggestions and observations.

 

But something that is a good choice eventually might burn out a younger student.

 

There are a few spring 2014 workshops on history that are still available. That might give you a sense of how well the online class format will work for your family. Though it is still a question of how your son would do with the homework and quizzes.

 

I have also found the Barr's very open to questions. They want their students to have goals that match what they are offering. So if you have questions about the classes, do email and ask.

 

Another thing you might do is get a copy of Wheelock's (the class uses the new 7th edition, but there are often 6th editions in libraries and used book stores) and have your kid try out the first couple of chapters. Would he be able to do a chapter a week (including the end of chapter translations)?

 

FWIW, the FAQ at Lukeion gives the guidance that students in their semester long courses should be working at the high school level.  That doesn't necessarily mean high school age. On the other hand, there was an article recently by Amy Barr on why they suggest students wait until high school for Latin study.  It boiled down to the fact that in their experience, years of earlier Latin study didn't result in deeper or better Latin ability.

 

There is so much good info here!  Thanks!

 

I have been back and forth with Amy over the last few days and she has been very helpful.  I am also looking for advice/experiences from other parents who school similarly to us.

 

I agree that plowing through Latin earlier rather than later does not have any real advantage.  Dd's goal (again....she is 10 so not exactly concrete) is to take on another language in high school.  Our local university is a very real option for her but also requires college-level work load.  I would prefer she be done with Latin before she starts another language....which is why we are looking at starting now.  Like your son, dd has many interests and cannot do it all.  We do also have the option of just not continuing past a certain point.

 

The other somewhat strange reason I am torn is that we are stumped as to what to do the year we would wait for dd to be 12 (rather than 11) to start the classes.  She is not warming up to the idea of taking a year off of Latin.  She likes it and is concerned she will lose what she has learned.  But we have reached the point where I cannot help her much anymore.  And I don't really know what sort of one-year material I could use for her level.  My back-up is to find some light translation exercises for her to do in the gap year with some time spent reviewing the conjugations, declensions, and vocabulary she already knows.

 

Our library does have a copy of Wheelock's and I will grab it to see what dd thinks.  She is finishing up Latin for Children C right now (which she loves) and I understand it is also based on Wheelock's.

[Elise]

My two oldest daughters began Lukeion Latin 1 together in 8th and 6th grades.  Dd1 continued through Latin 3, and dd2 is in AP Latin 4 this year as a 9th/10th grader (we haven't decided whether to call this year 9th or 10th--jury is out!).  Dd1 is a very strong student and did extremely well throughout the classes (high A).  Dd2 is a highly motivated, accelerated student, and she has done equally well despite being younger.  

 

Both girls had a very solid background in grammar and had done several years of Latin with me at home prior to joining Lukeion (some Latin for Children, Minimus, Memoria Press, and Galore Park Latin Prep.)  I do think that those years at home gave them confidence going in to the course (our first online class experience.)  The first few months were mostly review for them, but by second semester, all the material was new.  Second year Latin picked up the pace, especially the second semester.  Both girls were doing many hours of Latin per week (maybe averaging 2 per day) that semester.

 

Latin 3 and 4 are definitely intense.  These classes require good writing skills for the papers and essays (3 per semester.)  While dd2 is capable of handling the AP workload at 14-15 (she is taking two other AP classes this semester), I don't think that my other daughters would be.  There's definitely no harm in waiting! 

 

I'm happy to answer other questions. :001_smile:   We love Lukeion and recommend them to everyone we know!   

[Corraleno]

My son started Greek with Lukeion in 7th, and that was with no background in foreign language and no grammar other than Lukeion's intensive grammar class the summer after 6th. It was intense and took up a LOT of time, but he loved it, and he added Latin (as well as Greek 2) in 8th. He's continuing with Lukeion in both languages. I don't think 6th grade is too young IF the student is really motivated and can put in the hours required. We also travel a lot and haven't found that to be a problem — in fact, DS logged into his Latin 2 class this morning on his laptop in our hotel room. 

[Corraleno]

(I've heard that Lone Pine also uses Wheelock's.) 

 

Actually Lone Pine uses Lingua Latina as the primary text for Latin 1 & 2; I think they just use Wheelock's as a grammar supplement for Latin 3 and above. At least that was the case when I looked into them a couple of years ago. 

 

Skimomma, if you decide you want something lighter/gentler, with a somewhat slower pace, you might check out Lone Pine Classical. Their AP course is Latin 5, whereas Lukeion's AP is Latin 4, so Lone Pine would give you an extra year before AP. Also, on the LP website it says that homework should not take a student more than 4 hrs/wk, whereas Lukeion says to allow 8-12 hrs/wk for work outside of class, and that has been DS's experience (~8 hrs for Latin, closer to 10-12 for Greek). We are big Lukeion fans, but if I had a student who was younger or needed a slower pace, I would definitely consider Lone Pine; it's a very different approach but their students also do really well on the NLE.

 

Jackie

[Corraleno]

Corraleno  as you did Greek, can you tell me about the format?

Is it a powerpoint with audio voice?

Or do you see the teacher teaching ?

 

We follow Meet the Romans now, as a try out, and dd is a little bit disappointed about it.

She likes the AoPS video's better ;)

We don't mind if it is pre-recorded, we do mind how lively the teacher teaches.

 

You don't see the teacher, but the classes are live, not recorded. It is like a powerpoint, but the "slides" are more than just text on a screen, there are a lot of photos, charts, diagrams, etc., and Regan asks questions for the student to answer, as well as answering questions from students, throughout the class (and throughout the week via email). There are also a lot of class-linked games and activities on Quia for grammar and vocabulary practice. Weekly homework is due by Friday, and there's a quiz every Monday.

 

Who teaches the Romans class, is it Amy or Regan? They have somewhat different styles: Amy tends to be stricter and more serious (although she also has a wicked sense of humor when it comes out), whereas Regan is a bit more laid back and funnier.

 

Greek 1 & 2 use Athenaze, which is a terrific text — covers the grammar thoroughly but also offers a lot of reading and translation from day 1. There are whole pages of translation every week; it is adapted Greek which starts simply and gets more complex as you progress. As with Latin texts like Ecce Romani or Cambridge, the passages follow a particular Greek family and tell a story. DS found it much more enjoyable than translating random sentences in Wheelock's.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Actually Lone Pine uses Lingua Latina as the primary text for Latin 1 & 2; I think they just use Wheelock's as a grammar supplement for Latin 3 and above. At least that was the case when I looked into them a couple of years ago.

 

Skimomma, if you decide you want something lighter/gentler, with a somewhat slower pace, you might check out Lone Pine Classical. Their AP course is Latin 5, whereas Lukeion's AP is Latin 4, so Lone Pine would give you an extra year before AP. Also, on the LP website it says that homework should not take a student more than 4 hrs/wk, whereas Lukeion says to allow 8-12 hrs/wk for work outside of class, and that has been DS's experience (~8 hrs for Latin, closer to 10-12 for Greek). We are big Lukeion fans, but if I had a student who was younger or needed a slower pace, I would definitely consider Lone Pine; it's a very different approach but their students also do really well on the NLE.

 

Jackie

Thanks for the correction.

[chiguirre]

The other somewhat strange reason I am torn is that we are stumped as to what to do the year we would wait for dd to be 12 (rather than 11) to start the classes.  She is not warming up to the idea of taking a year off of Latin.  She likes it and is concerned she will lose what she has learned.  But we have reached the point where I cannot help her much anymore.  And I don't really know what sort of one-year material I could use for her level.  My back-up is to find some light translation exercises for her to do in the gap year with some time spent reviewing the conjugations, declensions, and vocabulary she already knows.

You could look into a slower paced high school level class instead of Lukeion. I'm planning for Trinqueta to take Landry Academy's Latin 1-3 sequence starting next year. They use Jenney's Latin 1 for 2 years and then finish up Latin grammar with Wheelock and 38 Fabulae. At that point, I'm hoping T could try Lukeion's Latin 3 or continue with another Latin Reading course to prepare for the AP.

 

This year T has been doing First Form Latin at MP Online and has enjoyed it a lot. They offer Henle Latin geared to high schoolers and that might work for you too. I'd stick with them except that Henle is not as close a fit to the Latin AP exam as Wheelock.

[Brenda in MA]

I'd stick with them except that Henle is not as close a fit to the Latin AP exam as Wheelock.

This isn't exactly true any more. The current AP Latin exam is half Vergil and half Caesar. Henle is all about learning to read Caesar, so there is a lot of practice with typical Caesar vocabulary and typical Caesar sentence structure. My son loved the Vergil half of AP Latin -- Vergil is just so poetic and beautifully done. He found the Caesar part pretty straight forward due to his previous exposure to Henle.

 

My son used Henle at home with me through the end of Book 2 (with MODG syllabi), and then he switched to Lukeion for Latin 3 & 4. He did very well with Lukeion after Henle. His grammar background was rock solid, but he did struggle a bit with increasing his vocabulary, particularly during the Latin 3 year. As the others have said, Lukeion's Latin courses are time-consuming and challenging, but he learned so very much and went on to score well on the NLEs and AP exam.

 

HTH,

Brenda

[OhioMomof3]

Hi again.

 

My DD (11, turning 12) is taking Latin 1 this year.  She had little Latin background and average grammar preparation before beginning this course; she partially used Latin for Children A, but we didn't finish the book.  This was her first online experience, so I sat with her as she participated in the first few classes (in case she had any problems).  Because she was so excited to take this online class, she has been very motivated.  My daughter is not gifted; I wouldn't even say she is accelerated necessarily.  I think she is just motivated right now with "her first online class," and she enjoys Mrs. Barr.  I have been exceedingly pleased with the Lukeion Project. The instructors clearly teach the subject, and they thoroughly outline student expectations.  The only way that my daughter has struggled with the course is in her typing ability/speed; she gets frustrated sometimes that others are able to type their answers faster than she can.  This is just a personal annoyance to her; it doesn't affect her participation grade.  My daughter will focus on typing this summer, so that she is more comfortable going into Latin 2 next year.  When I hear others comment on the intensity of Latin 3, 4, and AP, I wonder if my DD will struggle when she starts these courses at 13, 14, and 15.  However, I think if she continues to work hard as she has learned to do with Latin 1, she will succeed.

 

Hope this helps,

Melissa

[skimomma]

Hi again.

 

My DD (11, turning 12) is taking Latin 1 this year.  She had little Latin background and average grammar preparation before beginning this course; she partially used Latin for Children A, but we didn't finish the book.  This was her first online experience, so I sat with her as she participated in the first few classes (in case she had any problems).  Because she was so excited to take this online class, she has been very motivated.  My daughter is not gifted; I wouldn't even say she is accelerated necessarily.  I think she is just motivated right now with "her first online class," and she enjoys Mrs. Barr.  I have been exceedingly pleased with the Lukeion Project. The instructors clearly teach the subject, and they thoroughly outline student expectations.  The only way that my daughter has struggled with the course is in her typing ability/speed; she gets frustrated sometimes that others are able to type their answers faster than she can.  This is just a personal annoyance to her; it doesn't affect her participation grade.  My daughter will focus on typing this summer, so that she is more comfortable going into Latin 2 next year.  When I hear others comment on the intensity of Latin 3, 4, and AP, I wonder if my DD will struggle when she starts these courses at 13, 14, and 15.  However, I think if she continues to work hard as she has learned to do with Latin 1, she will succeed.

 

Hope this helps,

Melissa

 

Yes, this helps!  Thanks!  I have a lot to think about......