Late to Playdate/Hanging Out?

[regentrude]

There are people who lack the ability to gauge the passage of time, they really don't have a sense for how long five minutes or an hour is and have a hard time judging what needs to be done when and how much time it will take to do something like getting ready and out the door to go somewhere.

 

May I ask a question? I do not mean to be snarky, I really have  a hard time understanding what that means.

 

Getting ready to leave the house is, for an adult, a recurring event, and I don't see how having a sense of the passage of time is necessary after the first one or two times. The tasks needed to get ready are the same every time, and they take pretty much the same amount of time every time.

For example, from experience I know I need 20 minutes to fix breakfast, set the table and wake the kids (30 minutes if I allow myself to pop on the computer and check email).  10-15 minutes to eat and have coffee, 12 minutes to brush teeth,shower,dry hair and get dressed, 3 minutes to gather coat, shoes, and purse and out the door. I do these same actions every.single.day - so after timing them once or twice, I don't have to rely on any feelings about passage of time: I look at the clock to make sure I am not running behind.

I don't suddenly end up in the bathroom for 30 minutes because the things I do in there do not take this long to be accomplished, and I don't suddenly decide to do other things there like clean out the towel closet  that are unrelated to getting ready.

(When the kids need to leave too, we have scheduled time slots for morning tasks and I'd call out time - but a timer would work just as well. I know that when I am done eating and heading for the shower, the kids must be called down for breakfast or otherwise they won't be ready in time, because that's how long they take. Every. single. day. )

 

So, where does the passage of time feeling come in? Is it that people add extra activities to their getting-ready-routine for which no time is planned (such as spontaneously deciding to straighten the towel closet even though the bathroom morning time slot does not plan for this)?

Or does the time they need to drink their coffee or get dressed really vary dramatically from day to day?

Thanks for helping me understand.

 

[Garga]

This has always bothered me, and recently I have found myself friends with people who are late or randomly cancel things.  I like so many things about them that even though the lateness/cancelling would normally be a deal-breaker, isn't in this case. My dh and I simply make a point of not expecting them to come through. We never, ever depend on them.  

 

For instance, for my birthday I was going to meet a group of about 10 women at a restaurant.  My late friend said, "Can we carpool together?"  I told her no.  I would not be made late to my own party.  I arrived on time, she arrived 15 minutes later, and that was fine.  I won't set myself up for disappointment.  I'll just drive myself.  We all got to spend time together, late friend included, and I didn't have the stress of being late to my own dinner.

 

Whenever DH and I make lunch plans with them to go out to a restaurant, we know they are always late so dh and I eat a snack so we are not starving by the time we get to the restaurant.  We all still get to enjoy the restaurant and DH and I are not starving and crabby when we arrive.  No biggie.

 

Never in a million years would I have thought I would have tried to be friend with unreliable, late people.  I have always had such disdain for that rudeness.  But I like these people so much for all their wonderful qualities that I quietly work around their lateness. The only way it works is that I will not allow it to affect me.  Even cancellations:  We had planned a little party at their house to watch the Doctor Who 50th anniversary special.  About 2 hours before the show, they called and said, "We can't do it today."  There had been a big argument in their house and they were all upset.

 

DH and I quietly followed through with our backup plan, which was to watch the show at another friend's house (we don't get BBC on our TV.)  We sent a couple of texts making sure they were ok from the argument, but when the show began we didn't allow the drama to interfere with our event.  Not out of meanness or anger, but just so we didn't grow resentful.

 

So, the way we handle it is this:  

We have backup plans

We don't rely on them to be there on time

We drive ourselves

We make sure we eat when we're hungry.  

 

If my children were to get upset if they didn't show, I wouldn't tell the children the people were expected  I would always let it be a surprise, to save my children from the disappointment.

 

It's worked out very well for us.  We can be friends with them without getting resentful. We simply live as we would, whether or not they are there with us.

[Occasionally]

I also said that life doesn't always give me the option of planning as far ahead to be on time, as work days did. And I also said that when it does, I take those same steps to be on time to "real life" events.

 

I'm not picking on you, Ripley, but you bring up a point that makes me curious. Why are "real life" events treated differently? I mean, what isn't "real life" to the chronically late person may well be "real life" to the wait-er. When someone is chronically late, it feels like they're making a value judgement, and the wait-er is deemed unimportant.

 

Full disclosure: before kids, on time was late for me. Now, I'm usually on time, but occasionally a few minutes late. I was practically having panic attacks when we were running half an hour late to my niece's birthday party recently.

[Tmhearn]

May I ask a question? I do not mean to be snarky, I really have a hard time understanding what that means.

 

Getting ready to leave the house is, for an adult, a recurring event, and I don't see how having a sense of the passage of time is necessary after the first one or two times. The tasks needed to get ready are the same every time, and they take pretty much the same amount of time every time.

For example, from experience I know I need 20 minutes to fix breakfast, set the table and wake the kids (30 minutes if I allow myself to pop on the computer and check email). 10-15 minutes to eat and have coffee, 12 minutes to brush teeth,shower,dry hair and get dressed, 3 minutes to gather coat, shoes, and purse and out the door. I do these same actions every.single.day - so after timing them once or twice, I don't have to rely on any feelings about passage of time: I look at the clock to make sure I am not running behind.

I don't suddenly end up in the bathroom for 30 minutes because the things I do in there do not take this long to be accomplished, and I don't suddenly decide to do other things there like clean out the towel closet that are unrelated to getting ready.

(When the kids need to leave too, we have scheduled time slots for morning tasks and I'd call out time - but a timer would work just as well. I know that when I am done eating and heading for the shower, the kids must be called down for breakfast or otherwise they won't be ready in time, because that's how long they take. Every. single. day. )

 

So, where does the passage of time feeling come in? Is it that people add extra activities to their getting-ready-routine for which no time is planned (such as spontaneously deciding to straighten the towel closet even though the bathroom morning time slot does not plan for this)?

Or does the time they need to drink their coffee or get dressed really vary dramatically from day to day?

Thanks for helping me understand.

I'm not the poster, but I have a few thoughts on these questions. First, let me say that I am a super on-time person. :-) But, I have a lot of experience with a chronically late person - my mom. And boy was that a nightmare growing up. I definitely had a reputation (and the school detentions to prove it) for being late, when I wasn't even the one driving myself.

 

I think in your morning routine example above you hit on several problems. Yes, these people are easily distracted. So, possibly they do get involved with projects that are unrelated to the task at hand. Yes, they might alter their routine. Picking out an outfit now takes 15 minutes when yesterday it took 5. But, additionally, sometimes they just don't have the same sense for the passage of time. Like, they think it takes 10 minutes to put makeup on, when really it takes 23. They think it will take 15 minutes to drive 5 miles, but lack the foresight to account for traffic. They really don't seem to have a good grasp on estimating the time it actually takes to do something.

 

And finally, they can sometimes be a bit self-absorbed. No offense intended to the poster above who has outed herself as a chronically late person, but my experience with these types of people has been that they are more concerned with themselves than really thinking through how they are affecting other people. I agree that the intent isn't disrespect, but that's still the outcome.

 

On another note, my mom did manage to curb her terribly chronic late problems as she got older. I think it took a few people who wouldn't put up with it to make her realize that whole aspect of how disrespectful it was to the other person. So, yes, she then had to work harder at something that didn't come naturally to her. But, isn't that part of growing up and bettering yourself as a person??

[OneStepAtATime]

May I ask a question? I do not mean to be snarky, I really have  a hard time understanding what that means.

 

Getting ready to leave the house is, for an adult, a recurring event, and I don't see how having a sense of the passage of time is necessary after the first one or two times. The tasks needed to get ready are the same every time, and they take pretty much the same amount of time every time.

For example, from experience I know I need 20 minutes to fix breakfast, set the table and wake the kids (30 minutes if I allow myself to pop on the computer and check email).  10-15 minutes to eat and have coffee, 12 minutes to brush teeth,shower,dry hair and get dressed, 3 minutes to gather coat, shoes, and purse and out the door. I do these same actions every.single.day - so after timing them once or twice, I don't have to rely on any feelings about passage of time: I look at the clock to make sure I am not running behind.

I don't suddenly end up in the bathroom for 30 minutes because the things I do in there do not take this long to be accomplished, and I don't suddenly decide to do other things there like clean out the towel closet  that are unrelated to getting ready.

(When the kids need to leave too, we have scheduled time slots for morning tasks and I'd call out time - but a timer would work just as well. I know that when I am done eating and heading for the shower, the kids must be called down for breakfast or otherwise they won't be ready in time, because that's how long they take. Every. single. day. )

 

So, where does the passage of time feeling come in? Is it that people add extra activities to their getting-ready-routine for which no time is planned (such as spontaneously deciding to straighten the towel closet even though the bathroom morning time slot does not plan for this)?

Or does the time they need to drink their coffee or get dressed really vary dramatically from day to day?

Thanks for helping me understand.

Although I have EF issues, I have learned to cope with those fairly effectively and almost always arrive on time, although there are days I badly misjudge how long it will take to get us out the door.  It is a challenge every day to stay completely organized, but I know I have this issue and have learned coping mechanisms.  I have to be OVER organized to stay on task.  

 

But once I started homeschooling my kiddos, I realized there was something more off than just EF issues with my daughter.  She has no concept of time passage.  Therefore, when she is doing math problems, for instance, and I tell her we are leaving in 25 minutes to go to the dentist, she cannot judge how long it will take her to finish even one problem, much less 25.  She has no idea if she can finish those math problems before we leave or not.  This is a neurological issue with processing and can cause a lot of problems as an adult.  Even with a watch and a calendar, this is still an issue and a serious one.  If you need further information, you might read "My 13th Winter" by a woman who is dyscalculic.  She has this same issue and it is quite enlightening to read about it from inside the mind of someone who has had to deal with it all of her life.    

 

Do I think everyone who is chronically late has dyscalculia or no sense at all of the passage of time?  No.  Even if someone does not have dyscalculia but does have EF issues, do I think that having EF issues is a good excuse for being late?  No.  I have those issues and strive hard not to let those issues cause us to be late.  Being chronically late to events involving other people or even just me and my children is a terrible habit to get into and negatively impacts others as well as myself and my kids.  It is a priority to set a good example and to show respect to others by being on time.  We don't always succeed, but it is definitely a priority and I work on it every.single.day.

 

If someone is having a lot of difficulties planning their day and staying organized, though, they may not have the ability to structure how to get out the door in an effective manner without external help.  And if no one actually mentions to them that their chronic lateness is an issue, they may not be consciously aware that this is an issue (and may not want to admit to themselves that they are continually failing their friends and colleagues).  I recommend for anyone with this issue that they read books like "Smart But Scattered" that address these neurological differences and help them to develop strategies that give them the external structure they need to function effectively on a day to day basis.  With guidance like that and a willingness to implement those strategies, they can turn these issues around.  Is it work?  Yes.  Is it worth it?  Of course.

 

So much of what we consider common sense and "easy" to do is based on critical neurological processes occurring behind the scenes of our brains, if you will. When those processes are not functioning well, or at all, it can be truly difficult even to stay focused long enough to cross a room and get a glass of milk.  For Neurotypical people that seems ludicrous...but for those who face these issues it can be embarrassing and debilitating.  That is why I try to recommend certain EF books to others when they seem to be struggling in this area.  I sympathize and understand how difficult it can be.

 

Hope that helped a bit but I don't know that I clarified much.  Sorry.  Typing on the fly.

Best wishes to all.

[Garga]

Of course it is your prerogative to do this and certainly I think with a mild case I could get over it too, but look at your list of fairly elaborate coping mechanisms.  You are going through quite a bit to accommodate these people, but they can't be bothered to go through anything to just show up on time once in awhile.  I can't help but want to tear my hair out at this thought.  LOL

 

Yup!  I'm flabbergasted myself.  I have always loudly railed against late people.  

 

But they pay thousands of dollars each year to care for the husband's mother.  Let her live in their home and tend to her, even though she is a crabby old woman.

 

When the wife's friend died and left a 6 year old daughter behind with an incompetent dad, this family has taken on the bulk of raising the little girl--this child now lives in their house half of the time and they fund most of her needs. 

 

They have guided a considerable number of young adults/teenagers through their childhoods/teen years and have helped them navigate heartbreaking situations, like rape.  When these young people come to visit, which they do often, the young people leave with "I love you" on their lips and heartfelt hugs.

 

When I'm sick or feeling bad, they're right there to ask how I am, to offer to watch the kids, to make food.  

 

So....they might end up coming late to dinner, or they might have a huge blow out with the crabby mother and have to cancel our TV show watching party, but if I die, my children will be tenderly cared for.  They will bend over backwards to raise my kids the way they think I would want them raised (homeschooled, in the church, etc.).  Yes, I asked them officially to be the kids' guardians.  If I'm sick, they will make food, if we need money, they will give it (not that I'd ask.  But they would.)

 

So, I'm finally understanding that just because people are late doesn't mean it's necessary to write them off.  This time last year I would have written off late people.  But I've since learned differently.  I've never met such caring people.  They love everyone around them and take real action to improve peoples' lives.  I've never met anyone quite like them.  

 

So, yes.  We accommodate.  And I'm ok with it.

[SKL]

It depends on the individual and the situation.  I generally manage things so that friends' punctuality does not matter.  Mainly because I'd be holding too many grudges otherwise.  ;)

 

I personally hate being late, but nevertheless it happens all too often.  I am terrible at judging how long something will take.

[SKL]

I used to have a joke that I was born 2 days late, and I'm still catching up.

 

As far as whom I can be friends with, I tend to be happier with people who are able to relax and not sweat the small stuff.  The ironic thing is that my most uptight, judgmental ex-friend is the most un-punctual person I know (without a good excuse).  She also just didn't bother to show up at all half of the time.  Needless to say I didn't work too hard to keep up that friendship.

 

My mom has a lot of trouble getting places on time.  She has agoraphobia and it can render her unable to move when she has to go to a gathering.  So people fully expect her to be an hour late to the grandkid birthday parties etc.  Or to send word at the last minute that she's too sick to come.  But I know this isn't your basic "I don't care about you" kind of thing.

[poppy]

I do think it's a bit unfair to say it's easy for everyone and just impossible for others.  Getting out on time with multiple young children is a massive pain for many, many people.  I had to make charts for myself, set multiple alarms, and I'm still chronically a few minutes late.  I do not consider myself disabled in this area at all. 

 

One difference between myself being chronically late and the people who 'lack the ability to tell time', from what I can tell, is that I'm really embarrassed to be late and it makes me feel like I'm being rude when I inconvenience others.  So I set up systems with lots of trial and error to make myself a little better. I've spent a lot of time on this. I know from reading posts here that I'm not alone in this area. Anyone who is FREQUENTLY very late, and doesn't view this as a problem (if not explicitly scolded for it by someone,) seems to lack the ability to consider others OR lack empathy for others OR simply be, as a PP said, really self-absorbed.

 

 

Now this is not the same as saying that being always late is always rude.  PP talked about living in a culture where clock-watching is not at all emphasized.  In that context, it's fine. And I can see that'd be a really hard adjustment.

[HS Mom in NC]

Normalizing Wiggle Room

 

Generally speaking, chronically a few minutes late to something that isn't a doctor's appointment, a funeral or wedding,a class, etc. is no big deal to me. I think everyone should be willing to tolerate a few minutes from the actual start time if it's not an example I just gave. I also have no problem with setting up get togethers with something like, "I'll get there between 5 and 5:15." or if it's really going to be a challenge, "I'll get there between 5 and 5:30." and then asking if that's workable for the other party. Then, if that doesn't work for the other party, they can say so up front.  Someday I want to live a lifestyle almost completely free of clocks-right now with 5 people on 4 different schedules, it's not a realistic option so I adapt accordingly.

 

No Sense of Time

 

I lost all sense of the passage of time for about 6 months after my crash c-section and massive blood loss with my middle daughter (now 16.)   I don't know if the surgery and recovery were the cause of it or if it was just coincidental, but I honestly could no longer tell you if it had been 30 minutes or 3 hours since I last nursed her, so I've been there.  The difference is, I learned to deal with it in a way that didn't make it her problem.  The first time she fussed to eat and I looked up at the clock and was shocked that 3 hours had passed when I honestly would've guessed it had been about 30 minutes, I immediately figured out how to adapt appropriately. I then became married to my clock.

 

At first, because I was still bedridden, I used the clock alarm to make sure I never went more than 2 hours between nursing sessions. Then, for months I compulsively checked my watch all day long until my sense of time returned. It had actually become such an ingrained habit I had to stop wearing a watch and work on calming myself down and thinking about how long it had been now that my sense of time was back.  Then I checked a clock to make sure I was about right to reinforce that I could trust myself again.   Most adults have the cognitive skills to figure out a way to adapt and make it work.  The real question is, Are they willing to make appropriate changes and follow through with what works?

 

The chronically late people I personally know are people with serious life management issues who refuse to make changes.  I have a friend who's been married for 20 years and she and her husband still fight about neither of them getting their bills paid on time because each thinks the other will do it and neither can keep track of when the bills are due.  Most couples work out who will pay which bills by when and have a system for keeping track of when they're due within 2 months of establishing a joint household. They don't lack intelligence.  They lack a willingness to make a change and follow through-a common theme in their other life management issues.

I still have a clock in my bathroom and I use it every day because I could stand in a hot shower or soak in a hot bath for hours and feel like I just got there.  If I'm not a vacation, I have to look at the clock as I get ready during that part of my morning routine or I'm behind.  That's just my reality and I plan accordingly. My teenaged daughters have a clock in their bathroom because they seem to lose track of time getting ready.  Now they have no excuse and manage to get places on time the vast majority of time.

 

Life Management Habits

 

Very few people with time management skills habits will tell you it's easy to learn them. Time management is work in itself. It's easier after developing that skill set than it is learning it at first, but it's never categorically effortless or easy. 

 

We have a centrally located calendar on the fridge.  I look at it twice a day: first thing in the morning and at lunch to make sure I know where I need to be and when every. day. When I wake the kids up, I tell them what's going on for the day and what time we're walking out the door for the older ones (now 18 and 16) and have since they were late elementary school aged.  I keep the little one (now 8) moving along with what she needs to do next and how long it will be before I come upstairs and check that she's done it. If she had a hard time estimating it, I'd use an egg timer that shows the numbers getting smaller as the time runs out so she has something to help her understand.

 

Our cleaning routine is based on my calendar of events.  I sat down with my older daughters and had them figure out what days were best for which chores and we wrote it on the calendar.  My oldest (18) is a nanny and studying to be a doula. My middle (16) is full time at the local community college 4 days and has 3 archery practices per week.  My youngest (8) has 3 days of Tae Kwon Do and 1 day of PE per week.  Every 2nd, 4th and 5th Tuesday it's Art class. All that it written down and taken into consideration as we plan the monthly chore rotation.  Then they know what has to be done by when. If a schedule change happens, we plan accordingly.

 

I only schedule one morning and either one afternoon or evening activity a day at most if I'm the one doing the driving.  Other than that, someone else has to drive to the other event and back because it's just too much otherwise. There have been a few rare exceptions to this.  Whining and pleading from children who want to add more rather than choosing two events for the day almost always fall on deaf ears. Modern life usually means making choices-deal with it.

 

 

I have check lists for camping and make sure everything that can be is packed up after dinner the night before so we only have to get dressed, eat breakfast  and pack the ice chest and put it in the next morning. I can be at my brother's house 20 minutes away at 7 am sharp-and I'm not a morning person. I have detailed check lists (what has to be done 2 weeks in advance, a week in advance, 3 days in advance, 1 day in advance and the actual day) for getting Thanksgiving lunch on the table at exactly noon because my brother who works has only 2 hours, from 12-2 to eat with us.  I host 20-30 people each year.

 

 

[OneStepAtATime]

And just to clarify, I do think there are those who just really don't give a d@#n whether they are late or not or how inconvenient it may be for the other person.  And I have a hard time putting up with that.  Even though poor DD has no sense of time and organization is challenging for her, she tries hard every day and HATES being late.  The last thing she wants is her own personal difficulties to cause inconvenience to someone else.  (And I feel the same way.) Which is why it is my job to help her learn coping skills and how to provide herself with the scaffolding needed to function independently as an adult, and that includes how to get places on time, or at least within a reasonable few minutes of on time, despite the fact that this may not be terribly easy for her (or me).  It is still important...

[Jenny in Florida]

 

My family is so surprised that I chose a job that required regular air travel. But I never missed a flight - ever. I had to give myself an extra two hours :lol: but I was always there for boarding! I had to leave hotels two hours before my co-workers, I had to leave home four hours before departure to ensure I was in the boarding lounge on time (everyone I worked with left two hours early if driving, one if being dropped off). When my regular life permits, I take the same steps to arrive on time (doctors, weddings, funerals, volunteering) but my life doesn't always permit.

 

I'm sorry your friend was late, and even more sorry if it's a chronic issue with her. I'm mostly sorry for your daughter because I know that stinks for her. All I can suggest is that while it may feel personal and disrespectful, it isn't always meant to. And most people like me know they have a problem and will understand if invites get skipped or spaced out given a proven history of tardiness - it's par for the course, and reasonable enough.

 

I'm sorry, but the fact that you can be on time when you really need to do so does not actually back up your argument that being late to other things isn't personal and disrespectful. In fact, I'd argue that it suggests the exact opposite. You've never missed a flight apparently because, to you, being on time for that obligation is important. Being on time for a get-together with a friend, though, isn't.

[OneStepAtATime]

Yup.  And to be on time, yes you have to anticipate, prepare, plan ahead, and leave earlier than you think.  Maybe I should create steps for being on time and write a self help book.

 

I admit I kind of have the opposite problem   I'd love to be able to let go of the whole "gotta be there, gotta be there exactly on time, eeeeeek, crazy" feeling.  If I have to be somewhere tomorrow at 9 am, I am already thinking about what I have to do the day before.  If I have to be somewhere at 4pm, I start getting ready at 8am that day.  Not entirely ready, but just the little things I know I gotta do (like make sure everyone knows where their shoes are, are my clothes clean, do I need cash, do I need more gas in my car, etc.). 

I had a great grandfather that was, well, very punctual.   If anyone was visiting and they said they had to be at the bus station by 9am, he had them up at 4, fed them by 5 and out the door by 7, tops.  For a 15 minute drive.  His reasoning?  You just never know when something will happen on the way.... :) He was short, and not very big, but I don't think anyone ever argued with him.  And NOONE was ever late getting to the bus station while staying with him.

[Captivated]

I am a reformed "late person."  If I can change ANYONE can.  My dad used to say I'd be late to my own funeral.  14 years ago that changed.  I got married to an always on time person.  :)  I hated the fact that I was always late.  So I asked my hubby why he thought I was always late.  He said, "I don't think you have a healthy reality of how long it take to do something."  That was eye opening for me and he was exactly right.  I started slowly making small changes like asking his advice for what time I should leave if I wanted to get somewhere on time.  I still do this to this day.  I started packing the night before.  I made lists upon list upon lists.  I worked hard at this and now I am rarely late.  If I'm late it is a BIG deal.  We usually arrive everywhere 10 mins early and have to wait in the car.  I bring something to read or do for me and the kids.  

 

All this to say, if a late person wants to change they can.  It isn't easy and takes lots of learning and planning but it is possible.   I have little patience when someone is chronically late but won't even try to make changes in their lives to make it better.  

[JudoMom]

I'm another that thinks it's just rude to be chronically late.  Sure, things happen now and again.  But to let that be your norm is saying that you don't care about the other person.  There's no excuse.  Hang a clock in every room.  Heck, wear one on your wrist.  Set alarms.  Plan the day before. 

 

And no, I don't think having lots of littles is a reason to be late.  It's becoming a pet peeve of mine.  Somehow I was able to make it to 99% of things on time, even when mine were ages 0-6.

[Jenny in Florida]

LOL, this reminds me of my Dad, who told me that if I wasn't 5 or 10 minutes early to everything, I was actually late.  

 

 

My own family of origin is chronically late, but I reformed my habits as an adult after I married a man who finds being late very stressful. It's a good thing, too, since my kids are theatre nerds who have had drilled into them the idea that, "Early is on time, on time is late, and late is fired."

[Laurie4b]

Another point of view here: "Lateness"is  culturally defined. WPT (white people's time) in the US allows that 5 min late is perfectly fine and 15 min late is the max. In other countries, an hour late in many other countries or in certain ethnic niches in the US is very acceptable and no one gets worried or bent out of shape for another hour or so.

 

Additionally, people, including adults, with problems with executive function end up being late a lot. They don't have the same wiring in their brains as "nearly always on time" people. I was in my mid-20s before I realized that I was always 15 min late because I didn't include travel time when I was planning to go somewhere (and I lived about 15 min from wherever I was going.) It really was a revelation. Some of you would say, "Duh!" Both my parents were totally on -time people. I've got a lot of ADHD traits but not fullblown ADHD.

 

Simple solution involving no judging or "consequences" and no high blood pressure : tell her to meet you an hour earlier than you want her to come. So if you want to start at 2:00, ask her to come at 1:00.  A friend of mine runs super late and we all love her so we just adjust our expectations by adjusting the time announced as the meeting time. Or we tell her the real time and plan to be late ourselves. Either way works.

[OneStepAtATime]

Another point of view here: "Lateness"is  culturally defined. WPT (white people's time) in the US allows that 5 min late is perfectly fine and 15 min late is the max. In other countries, an hour late in many other countries or in certain ethnic niches in the US is very acceptable and no one gets worried or bent out of shape for another hour or so.

 

Yep.  When we moved here, the kids and I were invited to a birthday party.  I didn't know the area and even though we left early, we arrived about 15 minutes late.  And the birthday family wasn't there.  Neither were any guests.  For another 20 minutes.  Because coming late is expected for certain cultures here (there are several, so it gets tricky).  Culturally, for this group, if you arrive on time it looks like you are desperate for friendship and have nothing better to go to.  And apparently you do NOT want people thinking that of you.  Weird from my cultural perspective, but there you go...

 

Just this weekend we attended another birthday party, different cultural group, at a museum.  We got there exactly on time.  The museum staff admitted they hadn't seen anyone from the birthday party yet, but they were certain they would arrive eventually.  Sure enough, 30 minutes later, the birthday girl and her family arrived.  A few minutes after that others started arriving.  They were still arriving an hour later....

[LMV]

I kind of see both sides of this.  DH and are both in professions where punctuality is imperative and that generally transfers and translates into the other areas of our lives.  We're usually the family that shows up a few minutes early and just takes a few moments to get settled before we really have to be somewhere (or take a few minutes to explore something that looked really interesting to a three year old on the way from the parking lot to the venue). DH even managed to get three little girls five and under all ready and dressed for church, get them and their two older sisters (9, 14) safely secured in the car, and get to church on Sunday (when I was working another ED shift) in time to set up music before the ceremony.  

 

Of course there are also a few times when life as a physician intrudes into the rest of my life.  I've stuck around after ED shifts when there has been a large volume major trauma and I was really needed and sometimes I've stayed a little extra to finish something up rather than pass it off to another colleague.  Generally this isn't a problem because I don't usually schedule things for immediately after an ED shift.  I will also say that the larger the family the more likely that something may come up that will necessitate a change of plans.  I hate to say it but this is just reality and our usual approach is to deal with the unexpected situation and reschedule as necessary.  We completely understand that others' time is valuable so we call as soon as we know a complication has arisen and adapt the plan with those involved from there.  Ideally we would like others to offer us the same consideration but we realize that some people/families are better at this than others.  We also realize that sometimes crises happen of the degree and proportion that it just isn't possible to anything more than attempt to deal with the crisis.

 

I will also say that if you essentially invite yourself/children over for a play date so you can swim in our pool,  essentially refuse to accept us rescheduling for another day when one of the children your children want to play with has an unexpected urgent orthodontist appointment (because one of the wires on her braces broke), and I cave and agree that we will just call you when we're leaving the orthodontist so we can all meet at our house, then I consider it poor form to launch a dozen complaint tweets, write an entire forum post, and blog (complete with pictures of our closed front gate) about how much all of this inconvenienced you and how disrespectful our family was of  your time.  Yes, this did happen to our family last summer.  

 

[Amira]

I totally agree with lateness being culturally defined. Even though I am an on time person, between my sister and living in countries where lateness doesn't matter (really, most of the world doesn't care), I just cannot get worked up about other people's sense of time.

 

I honestly think it's a bit of a luxury to insist on promptness. It's easier to consistently be on time if you own a car instead of walking or relying on public transportation. It's ever so much easier to predict when a meal will be ready for guests if your kitchen is filled with appliances and sinks with running hot and cold water and with reliable electricity and a fridge full of food you bought at the grocery store that is always stocked with the same products. Sure, it's not impossible to be prompt in these situations (because I have been), but living that way made me realize that there are very good reasons why most of the world can't or won't insist on it. I can't insist on promptness anymore even when I'm living in the US. Even if everyone around you thinks you have every reason to be on time.

[Haiku]

Fortunate, too, I suppose, that they don't make the same tiresome leaps that others may make in the same situation. 

 

Honestly, most of the people I know are on time most of the time. They are on time because they make being on time a priority. The few people I know who are chronically late always have a truckload of excuses as to why they are chronically late, but it basically boils down to one thing: being on time is not a priority. Every time I see a discussion like this, those who are chronically late point out how they aren't late to the things that they simply can't be late for. That's because for those occasions, they make being on time a priority. Things that don't entail huge consequences for being late (like missing a flight) don't make the priority list. It's really not that huge of a leap to suggest that if you are chronically tardy, you have deemed the things you are tardy to low-priority things.

[HS Mom in NC]

I totally agree with lateness being culturally defined. Even though I am an on time person, between my sister and living in countries where lateness doesn't matter (really, most of the world doesn't care), I just cannot get worked up about other people's sense of time.

 

I honestly think it's a bit of a luxury to insist on promptness. It's easier to consistently be on time if you own a car instead of walking or relying on public transportation. It's ever so much easier to predict when a meal will be ready for guests if your kitchen is filled with appliances and sinks with running hot and cold water and with reliable electricity and a fridge full of food you bought at the grocery store that is always stocked with the same products. Sure, it's not impossible to be prompt in these situations (because I have been), but living that way made me realize that there are very good reasons why most of the world can't or won't insist on it. I can't insist on promptness anymore even when I'm living in the US. Even if everyone around you thinks you have every reason to be on time.

 

I agree if you're in another country, culture or subculture.  I agree if you have to walk or rely on public transportation.  That's not the situation for most people in America.  Here in the SW US, there is no public transportation-you have to have your own car to get around here.  Everyone I ever met here has electricity, running water and access to grocery stores, so I'm comfortable with making those demands.  I'm not going to hold someone in upper middle class suburbia to the same standards as people without modern living and conveniences nor will I hold people without them to the same standards as people who do. If I went to another country or a different local subculture I would do my homework and familiarize myself with the cultural norms and act accordingly.  I would expect it the other way around too-if you choose to live in and participate in this culture, you should adapt to the cultural norms for group activities.

 

Here there are churches that run 6 services every Saturday and Sunday-they can't start late or let it run long, it has to run like clockwork. They don't have the money for bigger or additional buildings. My daughter's college classes have to run on time because she has other classes that start very shortly afterward and other classes that start in the classroom she just finished in.  Our PE class is 1 hour long, then the coach drives to another location to do another one-several times a day.  No starting or ending late is allowed. An hour late is a waste of your time and money-the coach won't be there after an hour. That may not be the case in other parts of the world, but it's reality here and people can only deal with the reality at hand, not wish it were different.

 

Other people's senses of time isn't just about being married to the clock for its own sake.  Many of us have schedules that require us to use shorter segments of time.  I don't have nothing to do all day.  I had 2 cars to share between 4 drivers to get 5 family members with 5 different schedules to different places for the last 6 months. Now I have a 3rd car because my oldest works and will be on call 24/7 for births for her doula certification.  My husband's work demands are what they are. He's a contractor that writes software.  He works for several different companies sometimes on site now and he'll work for other companies in the future.  Employee carpooling and public transportation aren't an option. Neither is walking. So are my 3 kids' different schooling and work schedules. I wish it were all neatly lined up so I didn't have to run from here to there and I wish we had public transportation options but we don't. The other option is to not do activities away from home and tell my daughters not to be educated beyond high school. That's a bad idea in this culture.

 

[alef]

May I ask a question? I do not mean to be snarky, I really have  a hard time understanding what that means.

 

Getting ready to leave the house is, for an adult, a recurring event, and I don't see how having a sense of the passage of time is necessary after the first one or two times. The tasks needed to get ready are the same every time, and they take pretty much the same amount of time every time.

For example, from experience I know I need 20 minutes to fix breakfast, set the table and wake the kids (30 minutes if I allow myself to pop on the computer and check email).  10-15 minutes to eat and have coffee, 12 minutes to brush teeth,shower,dry hair and get dressed, 3 minutes to gather coat, shoes, and purse and out the door. I do these same actions every.single.day - so after timing them once or twice, I don't have to rely on any feelings about passage of time: I look at the clock to make sure I am not running behind.

I don't suddenly end up in the bathroom for 30 minutes because the things I do in there do not take this long to be accomplished, and I don't suddenly decide to do other things there like clean out the towel closet  that are unrelated to getting ready.

(When the kids need to leave too, we have scheduled time slots for morning tasks and I'd call out time - but a timer would work just as well. I know that when I am done eating and heading for the shower, the kids must be called down for breakfast or otherwise they won't be ready in time, because that's how long they take. Every. single. day. )

 

So, where does the passage of time feeling come in? Is it that people add extra activities to their getting-ready-routine for which no time is planned (such as spontaneously deciding to straighten the towel closet even though the bathroom morning time slot does not plan for this)?

Or does the time they need to drink their coffee or get dressed really vary dramatically from day to day?

Thanks for helping me understand.

I see some other posters have responded, I hope their replies were helpful. I don't have personal experience or a lot of knowledge about how a person without a sense of time functions, but I do have executive function difficulties and what I have seen is that people with good executive function abilities generally cannot imagine not having them--executive function skills seem so obvious and straight forward that only laziness or lack of caring could account for failure to use them. Examples in my own life include being in the middle of a task and noticing something else that needs to be done so I drop the first task and start the second but then a child cries and I go to take care of that and never come back to tax one or two. I frequently forget what I am doing, what I went into a room for, what I was talking about a minute ago, I forget that I pulled out an outfit to wear and go look for a different outfit, only moments after finding the first. This kind of chaos of thought is as far as I can tell not something that everyone experiences on a regular basis, nor is it something I can just decide to stop doing. My family tends to get places on time or nearly so only because my oldest daughter has strengths that compensate for my weaknesses. Left to my own devices, I doubt I would do so well; your example of timing your morning routine and checking the clock would be extremely difficult for me because I would forget to get the coffee going, would find myself without clean pants, would get distracted in the middle of breakfast by the realization that I never ran the dishwasher last night, and would not be able to locate my keys and wallet when it was time to head out the door. I imagine all of that sounds easy to fix from your perspective, but the fixes would not be easy at all for me. Add a lack of time sense on top of that (not a problem I struggle with) and keeping a schedule might be nearly impossible. I have enough struggles of my own that am extremely hesitant to judge the lives of others.

I have strengths as well, and I know how hard it can be to understand someone whose weakness is my own strength. I am by nature calm and content 99% of the time, and it seems to that being calm and happy should be an easy thing for everyone--but it is obvious that a great many people find such a state nearly impossible to achieve. I wouldn't be wise to condemn them because what comes easily to me does not come easily to them.

[DawnM]

Sometimes it is really a personality issue.

 

I have a friend who often cancels on me completely or shows up late.  The thing is, she isn't bothered if I have to do the same thing, even though I am overly apologetic (even if we are sick) because I HATE this sort of thing.  I am on time almost all the time, even early sometimes, and I find it rude to think my time not worthwhile enough so that you waste it.

 

I now do NOT plan to meet her somewhere at a particular time unless I am prepared to wait there.  It is far better to meet at one of our houses so that tardiness is not such a huge problem.

 

Dawn

[regentrude]

I see some other posters have responded, I hope their replies were helpful. I don't have personal experience or a lot of knowledge about how a person without a sense of time functions, but I do have executive function difficulties and what I have seen is that people with good executive function abilities generally cannot imagine not having them--executive function skills seem so obvious and straight forward that only laziness or lack of caring could account for failure to use them. Examples in my own life include being in the middle of a task and noticing something else that needs to be done so I drop the first task and start the second but then a child cries and I go to take care of that and never come back to tax one or two. I frequently forget what I am doing, what I went into a room for, what I was talking about a minute ago, I forget that I pulled out an outfit to wear and go look for a different outfit, only moments after finding the first. This kind of chaos of thought is as far as I can tell not something that everyone experiences on a regular basis, nor is it something I can just decide to stop doing. My family tends to get places on time or nearly so only because my oldest daughter has strengths that compensate for my weaknesses. Left to my own devices, I doubt I would do so well; your example of timing your morning routine and checking the clock would be extremely difficult for me because I would forget to get the coffee going, would find myself without clean pants, would get distracted in the middle of breakfast by the realization that I never ran the dishwasher last night, and would not be able to locate my keys and wallet when it was time to head out the door. I imagine all of that sounds easy to fix from your perspective, but the fixes would not be easy at all for me. Add a lack of time sense on top of that (not a problem I struggle with) and keeping a schedule might be nearly impossible. I have enough struggles of my own that am extremely hesitant to judge the lives of others.

 

Thank you for explaining, I appreciate you taking the time. And you are absolutely right, for somebody else it is very hard to imagine living with such a challenge. It sounds like this would make it extremely difficult if not impossible to have a normal job.

 

[marbel]

I agree if you're in another country, culture or subculture.  I agree if you have to walk or rely on public transportation.  That's not the situation for most people in America. 

 

<snip>

 

I agree with all this.

 

The OP didn't indicate that she was living in a place where people don't live by the clock.  If she had posted that her family just moved from Los Angeles to Antigua and people were driving her crazy being late all the time, the responses would have been different. 

 

It doesn't really matter what other cultures do.  If I moved to a culture where keeping time wasn't so important, I would have to learn to adjust.  if I befriended someone who moved to the US from a place like that, I would expect them (and help them) to learn how to live within our cultural norms. 

 

Maybe this is a better spinoff post but I'm curious how things really work in places where being on time is not so important.  Surely doctors and lawyers don't work that way, unless they have open office hours and people just line up and wait to see them (which is probably the case in some places).  I suspect there are more places where keeping on time for social engagements is not so important but is for business appointments.   But I actually don't know and would be interested in that.

[Amira]

I agree it doesn't matter what other cultures do. It's just that *for me* living in those cultures and loving a chronically late person has taught me to refuse to see lateness as disrespect. Everyone else here is welcome to disagree. :)

 

As for doctor's appointments, they can be late too. I had a 4:30 dentist appointment a few weeks ago. Her office officially reopens at 4:00, but the dentist didn't arrive until 5:00. I do admit to rolling my eyes when I learned around 4:50 that the dentist wasn't in the office, but I returned to my book and really didn't mind waiting.

[regentrude]

As for doctor's appointments, they can be late too. I had a 4:30 dentist appointment a few weeks ago. Her office officially reopens at 4:00, but the dentist didn't arrive until 5:00. I do admit to rolling my eyes when I learned around 4:50 that the dentist wasn't in the office, but I returned to my book and really didn't mind waiting.

 

But how does anybody get anything done if society operates like this?

 

[Amira]

But how does anybody get anything done if society operates like this?

My teeth got cleaned, and I assume that anyone else with an appointment saw the dentist too. It's not the end of the world if a store opens late. I honestly don't feel like I get less done here because people aren't as prompt. It's actually nice to be in a place where I don't have to be fanatically on time. It can be a relief.

 

And not everything in my life is so late here. Our guitar teacher is never more than 10 minutes late (he comes on the bus), and our Spanish teacher is always exactly on time (he has a car). Our piano teacher has never been more than 5 minutes late. Church always starts exactly on time, although many people are late, especially those who have an hour bus ride to get there. It actually annoys me that church is so prompt because the poorer members of the congregation live much futher away than the wealthier members with cars.

[Ellie]

I totally agree with lateness being culturally defined. Even though I am an on time person, between my sister and living in countries where lateness doesn't matter (really, most of the world doesn't care), I just cannot get worked up about other people's sense of time.

 

I honestly think it's a bit of a luxury to insist on promptness. It's easier to consistently be on time if you own a car instead of walking or relying on public transportation. It's ever so much easier to predict when a meal will be ready for guests if your kitchen is filled with appliances and sinks with running hot and cold water and with reliable electricity and a fridge full of food you bought at the grocery store that is always stocked with the same products. Sure, it's not impossible to be prompt in these situations (because I have been), but living that way made me realize that there are very good reasons why most of the world can't or won't insist on it. I can't insist on promptness anymore even when I'm living in the US. Even if everyone around you thinks you have every reason to be on time.

 

I have never lived somewhere that it was possible to depend on either walking or public transportation to get where I wanted to go (except when I was a child and I walked to school...where, BTW, I still had to be on time). I have always lived where the kitchens are full of appliances and sinks with running hot and cold water and reliable electricity and a fridge full of food I bought at the grocery store that is always stocked with the same products.

 

Most people on this forum live the same way.

 

So, yes, I expect promptness. It is the norm in this society. There is nothing wrong with its being our norm.

 

If you lived where I do, and you thought so little about the importance of being on time, then we might be friends, but I would not invite you to events that had a start time; I would hope that you would not volunteer to help with activities that had schedules, because you would not be trustworthy.

[OneStepAtATime]

Thank you for explaining, I appreciate you taking the time. And you are absolutely right, for somebody else it is very hard to imagine living with such a challenge. It sounds like this would make it extremely difficult if not impossible to have a normal job.

Challenging.  But not impossible.  You just need extra scaffolding in place.  Lots of alarms on the phone, for instance.  And supportive family/friends.  Adding lots of structure that is not internally driven.  And you need to be willing to put in that work... :)

 

Also, someone on the LC board was showing that people can test themselves to see if their internal clock is off by sitting without a clock visible and using a stop watch to stop when you think 1 minute is up, then record how close you were.  Then 5 minutes.  Then 10 minutes, etc.  If your internal judge of time is getting further and further off, then you know that you need to add extra time to any estimate you make for how long something will take to do.  If you cannot judge the time at all, then you know it may be better to ask others to help you estimate a particular situation, especially if you have not done it before, or not often, or parameters change.

 

Interestingly, I have an excellent internal sense of time.  What I lack is the linear flow.  Like the PP, I get sidetracked immediately, so I have to keep clearly laid out lists with me and alarms on my phone.   This was not as bad before cancer and two botched surgeries.  And I had a great job (several, in fact) all very dependent on time, to the second in some instances, since I worked in the television industry.  Now, after the health issues, things are a bit more challenging.  My brain would probably be diagnosed with ADD issues.  :)

 

My DD, however, cannot sense any passage of time so for her 5 minutes is the same as an hour.  It will be more challenging for her as she grows up. but she is very bright and very determined and very creative so we are working to help her help herself.

 

Best wishes to all.

[Amira]

If, in addition to being prompt (which I am), I have to insist on it in others, then maybe I'm even less American than I thought I was. ;)

[BlsdMama]

I have the sweetest friends in the entire world. She almost always runs late. She is definitely not narcissistic. She is certainly never, ever, ever meaning to be disrespectful. Far from it. Before I knew her well, I think this could have driven me crazy, utterly nasty, though I am not a perfectly on time person.

 

I ended up adjusting my expectations. I expected lateness, scheduled things so it didn't matter, at first because my children enjoyed hers so much. However, I can honestly say it involved into one of the best friendships I've ever had and I'm so grateful I didn't miss out on it. She was worth it. ;) So I'd this is something worthwhile, change and adjust the plans. Do relaxed dates at your house where you can putter around and get things done whether she shows up at one or two. Just set deadlines for leaving about a half hour before she needs to go because well meaning, good natured, sidetracked folks still get, well, sidetracked. ;) Tell child you expect her "around" a particular time and be vague.

 

It could be something special. Mine is.

[regentrude]

My teeth got cleaned, and I assume that anyone else with an appointment saw the dentist too. It's not the end of the world if a store opens late. I honestly don't feel like I get less done here because people aren't as prompt.

 

What I was thinking of  was: if I plan to be an hour away from work for my dental appointment, but the dentist is late and it takes me two hours instead, that makes me late getting back to work which then delays every person who depends on me being there.

So, just curious: does the laid back sense of timing then also mean that employees routinely stay a few hours longer at work to finish up the things that could not get done because there were delays throughout the day? Do people not mind getting home at 9pm instead of 7pm? or does stuff then simply not get done?

[MomatHWTK]

Thank you for explaining, I appreciate you taking the time. And you are absolutely right, for somebody else it is very hard to imagine living with such a challenge. It sounds like this would make it extremely difficult if not impossible to have a normal job.

It is, that's why I homeschool. LOL!

 

Oddly, when I had a job I often became the default office manager. Even though I was constantly distracted, I also had the ability to keep track of what 4-5 other people were doing or needed to do and could change gears on the fly.  We ran an office with ongoing tasks that were often interrupted by emergency tasks and I was good at getting those needs taken care of quickly.  Working for someone else when I wasn't "in charge" of my own schedule didn't work out so well.  :)

[Amira]

What I was thinking of  was: if I plan to be an hour away from work for my dental appointment, but the dentist is late and it takes me two hours instead, that makes me late getting back to work which then delays every person who depends on me being there.

So, just curious: does the laid back sense of timing then also mean that employees routinely stay a few hours longer at work to finish up the things that could not get done because there were delays throughout the day? Do people not mind getting home at 9pm instead of 7pm? or does stuff then simply not get done?

 

The laid back sense of timing does affect how things are scheduled at work for dh.  He works for a US institution that operates on US business hours, but they've had to be flexible.  The way they've worked it out is to schedule the bulk of the intense work earlier in the day.  Since doctors are commonly available in the late afternoon and early evening, it's possible to simply leave work a little early instead of trying to block out an hour for an appointment and returning promptly afterwards. Everyone at the office is dealing with the different time perception, so everyone is willing to be reasonably flexible. But no one would be allowed to take non-emergency sick leave for a doctor's appointment at 10 AM in the middle of the busy part of the day. 

 

The hardest part for me, actually, isn't so much the laid back sense of timing, but that mealtimes are quite different here than in the US. Dh has to work US business hours that completely conflict with Mexican mealtimes. 

 

I do think productivity is going to be less in a place where people aren't as concerned about promptness and packing as much into a day as possible as USians are.  I imagine my dentist sees fewer patients than she could if she were more prompt.  I assume she (and many others here) feel they are doing enough on a more relaxed schedule.

[lea_lpz]

My mother is routinely late and that will never change so people who constantly are significantly late is a bit of a pet peeve for me. I think it's rude but not likely a behavior your friend will change. I would accept it or not be friends with her.

[SKL]

What I was thinking of  was: if I plan to be an hour away from work for my dental appointment, but the dentist is late and it takes me two hours instead, that makes me late getting back to work which then delays every person who depends on me being there.

 

 

This exchange reminds me of a little issue I'm working on.  My kids have horse riding / archery lessons on Saturday mornings.  Then they have a swim lesson.

 

The horse people are super mellow, laid back people.  They do not believe in ever rushing anything.  (And the lesson includes the kids having to groom the horse, clean the stall, etc., so if the horse poops at the wrong time, there goes x minutes....)  Meanwhile, the swim instructor gets crabby if everyone isn't dressed and poolside at least 2 minutes early.  LOL.

 

I work on Saturday mornings, so my nanny (Latin American culture + afraid to drive over 40mph) drives my kids (7-year-olds) to these activities.  I should also note that I'm not a morning person and I have a really poor sense of time.  In high school, I was disciplined for having the worst attendance record in the history of the school.

 

So between all of us, we have to figure out how to get the kids to the horse barn waaaaay early so that they can finish their lessons with a comfortable cushion so that the swim teacher doesn't hyperventilate.

 

It's a work in progress.  LOL.

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

I'm laughing at the cultural references.  I'm married to a Filipino.  I understand cultures that have a different sense of time.  All family gatherings have someone who tells us if the invitation is on "American time" or "Filipino time".  It is not an issue for me if I know what cultural norm we are following.  My friend and her daughter are not of a different culture that follows a different time.  

 

I'm reading all the posts with interest but for me, the issue is resolved.  I was ticked at the time - mainly because of the impact on my daughter and because if they had come even 20 min. later than they did, I would have had to call them and tell them to turn around and go home because of unavoidable time commitments of my own.  I have a feeling that both girls would have had a hard time with that.  I am very flexible.  I purposely scheduled the arrival time with some "give" so that it wouldn't matter if they were late.  I just didn't plan on that "give" being an hour and a half.  I don't know why they were late.  No excuse was asked for or given.  And really, I don't think it is my place to figure out what that problem might be.  

 

As to the friendship itself, I am impacted greatly but still feel like the main issue is between my daughter and her friend.  I need to help my daughter learn how to set boundaries and how to communicate better.  Both of these are long-term issues for her.  I'm not totally sure how to help her to set those boundaries and how to communicate her feelings (especially).  

 

[AngieC]

I do think productivity is going to be less in a place where people aren't as concerned about promptness and packing as much into a day as possible as USians are.  I imagine my dentist sees fewer patients than she could if she were more prompt.  I assume she (and many others here) feel they are doing enough on a more relaxed schedule.

 

 

So how does the dentist react when all of the patients arrive at various time - 5 minutes late, 30 minutes late, and hour late, etc..  How would they ever make and attempt to adhere to a schedule if they never know when your patients are going to arrive?

 

Or are patients expected to arrive on time and it's only the professional who is entitled to arrive at his leisure?

 

My husband had a family practitioner cancel his appointment a couple of years ago because it was a new doctor and location for him and he got lost on the way.  When I called for directions, they said he was already past his scheduled appointment and he would have to reschedule. 

[OneStepAtATime]

I'm laughing at the cultural references.  I'm married to a Filipino.  I understand cultures that have a different sense of time.  All family gatherings have someone who tells us if the invitation is on "American time" or "Filipino time".  It is not an issue for me if I know what cultural norm we are following.  My friend and her daughter are not of a different culture that follows a different time.  

 

I'm reading all the posts with interest but for me, the issue is resolved.  I was ticked at the time - mainly because of the impact on my daughter and because if they had come even 20 min. later than they did, I would have had to call them and tell them to turn around and go home because of unavoidable time commitments of my own.  I have a feeling that both girls would have had a hard time with that.  I am very flexible.  I purposely scheduled the arrival time with some "give" so that it wouldn't matter if they were late.  I just didn't plan on that "give" being an hour and a half.  I don't know why they were late.  No excuse was asked for or given.  And really, I don't think it is my place to figure out what that problem might be.  

 

As to the friendship itself, I am impacted greatly but still feel like the main issue is between my daughter and her friend.  I need to help my daughter learn how to set boundaries and how to communicate better.  Both of these are long-term issues for her.  I'm not totally sure how to help her to set those boundaries and how to communicate her feelings (especially).  

I am glad they actually did show up, and in time to at least give the girls a bit of time together.  Sorry it couldn't have been more and that this is an ongoing issue.  Interesting how your post has spawned such a discussion.  It kind of took on a life of its own.  :)

[Jean in Newcastle]

I am glad they actually did show up, and in time to at least give the girls a bit of time together.  Sorry it couldn't have been more and that this is an ongoing issue.  Interesting how your post has spawned such a discussion.  It kind of took on a life of its own.   :)

These threads do that, don't they!  

 

The girls did have a good visit.  I just had to drop them off at another venue on the way to my appointment and the timing of that was non-negotiable.  Since they were in time, I was able to drop them off and they had fun.  It just meant that they didn't have any hanging out time before the venue at our house.  So, it did work out in the end.  

[Jenny in Florida]

What I was thinking of  was: if I plan to be an hour away from work for my dental appointment, but the dentist is late and it takes me two hours instead, that makes me late getting back to work which then delays every person who depends on me being there.

So, just curious: does the laid back sense of timing then also mean that employees routinely stay a few hours longer at work to finish up the things that could not get done because there were delays throughout the day? Do people not mind getting home at 9pm instead of 7pm? or does stuff then simply not get done?

 

Right, and what about those of us who have commitments and appointments that DO start on time, for which we cannot be late, who are trying to deal with people like this aforementioned dentist who didn't show up on time?

 

I have a son who is dual enrolled at a community college. He has classes five days a week, classes which start on time and in which his grade will suffer if he is late.

 

He also has dance classes -- a couple of which he teaches -- four days a week, classes which must start and end on time so as not to throw off the schedule for subsequent classes each day.

 

My daughter works two part-time jobs and does not drive (anxiety issues). She words an average of six days a week. Neither job is accessible by public transportation. If she is late to either one, her pay will be docked and a notation will be made on her record. If she loses enough "points" at her primary job, she will not be eligible for raises or promotions and is in danger of being fired.

 

Both of these teens depend on me to get them where they need to be, on time and every day. If I need to squeeze in a doctor's appointment and allot a certain amount of time to do so and then the doctor is late, that creates a cascade of lateness for me and for everyone who depends on me, with potentially serious consequences.

 

For me, it's not a question of needing to work a couple of hours late in order to make up for that late doctor's appointment or having to delay dinner. It's about not being where I need to be in a way that means my son misses a test and flunks a class or my daughter loses a promotion because she's been late to work too often.

 

My son's dance studio is family owned, and both owners have full-time jobs in addition to running the studio. They also have two young children who have school and activities schedules of their own. If my son doesn't show up on time for class or rehearsal, or if I am late picking him up and someone has to stay with him until I get there, it creates chaos for that other family, too, and, by extension, for whoever is teaching or caring for their children while they wait around for me to collect mine.

 

I truly don't understand how people put up with that on a regular basis?

[SKL]

I had a dentist cancel my appointment.  I was going to the dentist in my parents' village because they had my history, and I would schedule it on a day when I was going there anyway.  It's well over an hour drive; hit road construction, bad weather, or a freeway accident - let's just say a lot can happen even if you leave early.  So I called them and said I was on my way but running a little late due to unexpected road construction delays.  They said fine.  I was 9 minutes late.  They canceled me!  Needless to say I never returned there!  :p

 

Funny that they think it's OK to make you wait every time, often half an hour or more, but you can't be 9 minutes late one time.  Ridiculous.  Respect goes both ways.

[SKL]

I don't even schedule doctor or dentist appointments for times when I have to be somewhere soon afterwards.  That's just asking for trouble IME.

[OneStepAtATime]

Somehow, whenever my husband schedules a drs appt, he is in and out in half an hour.  And when I am scheduled, they take at least an hour, sometimes 2 before I am even seen.  And we go to the same doctor....Ferris Bueller anyone?

 

Back to Jean's OP, though, I guess everyone has their own comfort level regarding lateness.  There have certainly been a lot of viewpoints expressed here.   And it has been interesting reading them and participating in this exchange.  Thanks, Jean. :)  Not sure any of us helped you much, but ...

[Amira]

So how does the dentist react when all of the patients arrive at various time - 5 minutes late, 30 minutes late, and hour late, etc..  How would they ever make and attempt to adhere to a schedule if they never know when your patients are going to arrive?

 

Or are patients expected to arrive on time and it's only the professional who is entitled to arrive at his leisure?

 

My husband had a family practitioner cancel his appointment a couple of years ago because it was a new doctor and location for him and he got lost on the way.  When I called for directions, they said he was already past his scheduled appointment and he would have to reschedule. 

 

Since I haven't been to the doctor or dentist very often here yet, and never in other countries I've lived in (for reasons other than a lack of promptness), I don't really know how they work this out.  I expect I'll find out soon because my children are getting braces and we're going to have lots of chances to see how the orthodontist who works at the same office as my dentist works this out. All I know is that we'll be on time with books in hand and that we'll be flexible. 

[Jenny in Florida]

I don't even schedule doctor or dentist appointments for times when I have to be somewhere soon afterwards.  That's just asking for trouble IME.

 

Unfortunately, if I took that approach, I could never go to the doctor or dentist. There is no business day when I don't have to be somewhere in the morning, afternoon and evening.

[...................]

True Story: I am always always early because I don't like getting anxious and nervous about being late. I plan ahead etc

 

One time about 8 years ago a friend set me up with a homeschool lady who lived in the neighborhood across the street. Walking distance. My kids were 3 and 4. I called the lady and arranged to meet her at the park. I had it in the calendar and was so excited because I thought we had so much in common.

 

I totally forgot. The day of the park date she called me after the appointed time and asked what napped. I profusely apologized and said that I had been totally looking forward to it, it was on my calendar but I just got busy with our daily routine...so she graciously set up another date at the same park near her house.

 

I blew it AGAIN!!!! I have no idea why or how as, She left a message telling me that she had gotten back from the park and she guessed I wasn't able to make it.

 

I felt like poop. But I decided then and there that for whatever reason it was not meant to be! I'm sure she decided the same thing lol. I did call back and leave a message apologizing but I decided not to try her patience a third time.

 

Wired true story.

[SKL]

Calming Tea, I have this irrational (?) fear that I might have done that to some old friends whom I haven't seen in years.  Our lives have all changed a lot, but we used to periodically exchange emails trying to find a date that would work for a lunch or dinner.  Mom brain did a lot of strange things to me when my kids were little.

 

A couple times I've completely forgotten work conference calls.  Yikes.  Sometimes I wonder if it's time to retire....