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Yet another prealgebra/algebra question...


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If you can stand it. :) 

 

I’ve spent about an hour searching through old threads but none completely answered my questions so I’m going to start a new thread, although I know there are a ton of prealgebra and algebra threads already out there. 

 

My oldest is in 5th grade. We’ve done Singapore all along, he’s finishing up Singapore 6B and will be finished by the end of the year easily. My initial plan was to have him start Algebra next year. Last year I spent some time researching whether or not to do Singapore 6A/6B or change to a different prealgebra program. I’m planning on having him try AOPS Algebra when he does Algebra but after reading lots of reviews here last year I decided not to do the AOPS PreAlgebra book. Instead he’s doing the Singapore (he does the IP book only and also CWP) and LOF PreAlgebra (in Biology now, not sure if I’ll have him do the Economics one) and I’m having him do Alcumus. He loves Alcumus. 

 

So that’s background of where he is. 

 

From Alcumus I can see that he is really solid on problem solving, basic arithmetic, fractions, ratio, decimals/percents and geometry but is weak on exponents and negative numbers. Which makes sense; none of his curriculum has covered either. And looking at 6B and LOF it doesn’t look like either covers these areas in any kind of depth. 

 

I feel like he understands exponents and negative numbers conceptually fairly well but needs to learn some of the rules. For example, one on of the Alcumus problems he had to multiple numbers with exponents and didn’t know you could add the exponents. I showed him that as well as explaining why it worked and he read the solution to the problem. He understood it quickly but I think he would benefit from going through the rules in a more systematic way. But I really don’t want to buy a whole new curriculum....

 

Some thoughts I’ve had...

-Just have him keep doing Alcumus and expect he’ll learn the “rules†just through having to solve the problems. 

-Have him work through videos on Khan Academy

-Buy something new that might cover these gaps...what? Jousting Armadillos? Key to Algebra? 

 

Something else I haven’t thought of?

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I would definitely use the AoPS Prealgebra videos (did you forget about them?) for exponents, square roots, and practice solving single-variable equations and inequalities, if he hasn't already had that.

 

Negative numbers are another matter, as they are a prerequisite to AoPS Prealgebra.  What's the difficulty with negative numbers, arithmetic generally or in the context of the distributive property?  That might affect what you might use there.  Maybe you just teach him yourself.

 

If he passes (I can't remember what the levels are called) all the Prealgebra Alcumus topics, I think he'll be good to start Intro to Algebra.  If you'd like a complete text to make sure you've got it all covered, I'd probably just go with AoPS Prealgebra, LOL...  A more straightforward option would be Dolciani's Prealgebra, An Accelerated Course - though it doesn't have that AoPS perspective, it gets the job done.  You could probably pick it up inexpensively just for these few topics, though I prefer AoPS for both exponents and square roots.  Try the videos first!

 

I do like to have a variety of materials at my disposal - I have a fifth grader who has gotten hung up in Intro to Alg so we have temporarily switched to Foerster (long story, mostly a lack of motivation hindering learning).  This isn't the first time we have drifted; he'll be back eventually.

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I was going to say AoPS Pre-A because it changed our world. I see you've ruled it out, though. Reconsider? ;)

 

I would definitely use the AoPS Prealgebra videos (did you forget about them?) for exponents, square roots, and practice solving single-variable equations and inequalities, if he hasn't already had that.

 

Negative numbers are another matter, as they are a prerequisite to AoPS Prealgebra. What's the difficulty with negative numbers, arithmetic generally or in the context of the distributive property? That might affect what you might use there.

 

If he passes (I can't remember what the levels are called) all the Prealgebra Alcumus topics, I think he'll be good to start Intro to Algebra. If you'd like a complete text to make sure you've got it all covered, I'd probably just go with AoPS Prealgebra, LOL... A more straightforward option would be Dolciani's Prealgebra, An Accelerated Course - though it doesn't have that AoPS perspective, it gets the job done. You could probably pick it up inexpensively just for these few topics, though I prefer AoPS for both exponents and square roots. Try the videos first!

 

.

 

Fwiw, my daughter worked through AoPS pre-algebra after completing Singapore 6B (along with the supplemental workbooks.) I thought the book was awesome.

I didn't know about the videos! I will definitely check them out, thank you! They might meet our needs perfectly.

 

With the negative numbers, he understands them well conceptually. He's just never covered them in a formal way. He's always thought the idea fascinating so he' s been talking about negative numbers for years. I think for both that and the exponents the issue isn't really understanding. Once he reads through the solution on alcumus he seemed to understand the problems he missed. It's more that I'm not as comfortable with my own math teaching abilities without a curriculum. It's really about the dreaded "gaps". Will I recognize the gaps and be able to fill them in?

 

As for Aops pre-algebra: there were a bunch of threads last spring with what I remember as poor reviews of it. Lots of people seem to say it was wordy and made things more complicated than necessary. And they were people who used the higher level Aops books and liked them. At this point I'm not sure he needs to do the whole pre-algebra book although it might be nice to have as a resource.

 

This is what I'm thinking now:

-keep doing alcumus

-start doing alcumus myself

-look at the videos

- when we are at the point of maybe moving on to algebra have him do the Aops pre-test and then see if he needs more work before moving on....

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As for Aops pre-algebra: there were a bunch of threads last spring with what I remember as poor reviews of it. Lots of people seem to say it was wordy and made things more complicated than necessary. And they were people who used the higher level Aops books and liked them. At this point I'm not sure he needs to do the whole pre-algebra book although it might be nice to have as a resource.

 

- when we are at the point of maybe moving on to algebra have him do the Aops pre-test and then see if he needs more work before moving on....

 

Fwiw, I (my oldest is the only one to finish the sequence at this point) have used all of the AoPS textbooks through calculus with great results, not only on the SAT and SAT II, but the AMC and AIME as well.  I also read those comments about the pre-algebra book and did not agree with them.  YMMV.

 

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One word of warning about the AoPS videos. They had my singapore 6a/6b kid BEG to use AoPS pre algebra, lol.

 

We went from SM 6a/6b to the AoPS prealgebra online class and it was great. Now he is using AoPS algebra (just the book) and it is a great fit.

 

I don't think of him as a traditional AoPS kid, because he's not a super mathy kid, but SM didn't make him work at all. He breezed through 6a6b without breaking a sweat. AoPS has been the challenge he needs. I was very hesitant to take on AoPS because he didn't seem to be their kind of kid, but he loved those videos so much that I changed my mind.

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Fwiw, I (my oldest is the only one to finish the sequence at this point) have used all of the AoPS textbooks through calculus with great results, not only on the SAT and SAT II, but the AMC and AIME as well. I also read those comments about the pre-algebra book and did not agree with them. YMMV.

 

This is my opinion as well (dd is on her sixth AoPS book).

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Fwiw, I (my oldest is the only one to finish the sequence at this point) have used all of the AoPS textbooks through calculus with great results, not only on the SAT and SAT II, but the AMC and AIME as well.  I also read those comments about the pre-algebra book and did not agree with them.  YMMV.

 

 

To add to this, about the wordiness and over-complication, my perspective is that, rather than those lengthy solutions being the primary source of teaching, it is actively doing the lesson problems themselves that teaches the lesson, even if you are doing them together.  The solutions are necessary if the student didn't get what was needed from doing the lesson problems and they rightly add as much explanation as possible; in other words, it's there if you need it.  I think this perspective of mine is also due to the fact that, rather than have my kids do the lessons independently (due in large part to being younger), I tend to use the Prealgebra text socratically, where we do the lesson problems together, or I'm at least present, so that if there's too much struggle, I can flip to the solution myself and ask another question to point in the right direction.  I tend to look through the solutions with my student quickly, pointing out anything I want them to notice, rather than reading word-for-word.  Maybe reading through the lesson problem solutions word-for-word is more of an issue where the student is using the text entirely independently?

Edited by wapiti
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Fwiw, I (my oldest is the only one to finish the sequence at this point) have used all of the AoPS textbooks through calculus with great results, not only on the SAT and SAT II, but the AMC and AIME as well.  I also read those comments about the pre-algebra book and did not agree with them.  YMMV.

 

  

One word of warning about the AoPS videos. They had my singapore 6a/6b kid BEG to use AoPS pre algebra, lol.

 

We went from SM 6a/6b to the AoPS prealgebra online class and it was great. Now he is using AoPS algebra (just the book) and it is a great fit.

 

I don't think of him as a traditional AoPS kid, because he's not a super mathy kid, but SM didn't make him work at all. He breezed through 6a6b without breaking a sweat. AoPS has been the challenge he needs. I was very hesitant to take on AoPS because he didn't seem to be their kind of kid, but he loved those videos so much that I changed my mind.

 

 

Lots to think about. Thanks for the different perspective. How was the online class for per algebra? I've been thinking that it would be good for him to do an online class but was worried about doing it with Aops as the first try because I've heard the classes are a really fast pace.

 

 

To add to this, about the wordiness and over-complication, my perspective is that, rather than those lengthy solutions being the primary source of teaching, it is actively doing the lesson problems themselves that teaches the lesson, even if you are doing them together.  The solutions are necessary if the student didn't get what was needed from doing the lesson problems and they rightly add as much explanation as possible; in other words, it's there if you need it.  I think this perspective of mine is also due to the fact that, rather than have my kids do the lessons independently (due in large part to being younger), I tend to use the Prealgebra text socratically, where we do the lesson problems together, or I'm at least present, so that if there's too much struggle, I can flip to the solution myself and ask another question to point in the right direction.  I tend to look through the solutions with my student quickly, pointing out anything I want them to notice, rather than reading word-for-word.  Maybe reading through the lesson problem solutions word-for-word is more of an issue where the student is using the text entirely independently?

 

.

Thanks that is helpful.

 

Now I'm leaning towards getting the prealgebra book....

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I don't think of him as a traditional AoPS kid, because he's not a super mathy kid, but SM didn't make him work at all. He breezed through 6a6b without breaking a sweat. AoPS has been the challenge he needs.

Discovering Math is harder than Primary Math, especially if you get the workbook. I spent the good portion of an hour looking over a friend's copies of the AOPS pre-algebra and intro to algebra books a few months ago. I didn't think the problems in AOPS looked harder than the ones in DM. I might still get the intro to algebra book as a source of review problems for DD, but at least those two books didn't look more difficult.

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My DD did LOF PA (both books) and Key to Algebra last year, and I decided to have her do AOPS pre-a, and I'm glad I did. There are simply a lot of topics in that book that she hadn't had in SM or in last year's PA/Algebra. I definitely think that picking up those topics through Alumcus or some other program would be a good idea if you don't want to do AOPS PA.

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Lots to think about. Thanks for the different perspective. How was the online class for per algebra? I've been thinking that it would be good for him to do an online class but was worried about doing it with Aops as the first try because I've heard the classes are a really fast pace.

 

 

Thanks that is helpful.

 

Now I'm leaning towards getting the prealgebra book....

The videos are self-paced with Richard presenting all the concepts. He's charming and engaging and has made a fan-girl out of me, er, I mean, DD.

http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Videos/index.php?type=prealgebra

 

The pre-algebra class is split into 2 sessions, 16 weeks each. http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/School/index.php?

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I briefly considered enrolling DD in the pre-a online class, but I will instead use the funds for their Mathcounts class. We were using a combo of SM and MM and I find that the pre-a book is best used according to your child's pace. It's quite a transition; pre-a asks kids to derive rules, not just memorize them. Sometimes you need to take time, think about a concept, and play around with it. I would kick myself if the pace was so fast with the online class that DD gave up on AOPS. I would then have to email Richard and plea for a phone call to DD.

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The AoPS pre-algebra class moves at a reasonable pace. It was taught over two semesters and was pretty much a school year. You pay for each semester separately. The AoPS Algebra 1 class moves at lightening speed. They cover all of algebra in half a semester.

 

The class was pricy but worth it. My dh counts it among the best $ we ever spent on hs'ing.

 

I should admit  that my son did the assignments for class, Alcumus problems and challenge problems, and that was it.  Some kids do the assignment for the class plus all the problems in the AoPS pre-algebra book and all the challenge problems in the book. There just weren't enough hours in the day for him to do all of that. He did very well in the class, much better than we expected.

 

As for the wordyness of the book, I tend to agree with those who find it a bit overdone. However, that may have been more an issue of overload. It was a new program, a new approach, new everything. He had never had to read a math book with so much discussion. The class made it much more straightforward but did a great job introducing him to the method. It was an excellent transition between the two. When he was done with the class he was ready to use the Algebra book on his own.

 

I was hesitant to use AoPS Algebra because of how difficult using the pre-algebra book had been, but others here assured me that it wouldn't be a problem. They were right. There have been no issues (aside from normal learning algebra ones, lol) from using the book alone. Now, I don't know if that is because the book is more user friendly or because that year transitioning to the AoPS method via the online class made the book more accessible.

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The AoPS pre-algebra class moves at a reasonable pace. It was taught over two semesters and was pretty much a school year. You pay for each semester separately. The AoPS Algebra 1 class moves at lightening speed. They cover all of algebra in half a semester.

 

The class was pricy but worth it. My dh counts it among the best $ we ever spent on hs'ing.

 

I should admit that my son did the assignments for class, Alcumus problems and challenge problems, and that was it. Some kids do the assignment for the class plus all the problems in the AoPS pre-algebra book and all the challenge problems in the book. There just weren't enough hours in the day for him to do all of that. He did very well in the class, much better than we expected.

 

As for the wordyness of the book, I tend to agree with those who find it a bit overdone. However, that may have been more an issue of overload. It was a new program, a new approach, new everything. He had never had to read a math book with so much discussion. The class made it much more straightforward but did a great job introducing him to the method. It was an excellent transition between the two. When he was done with the class he was ready to use the Algebra book on his own.

 

I was hesitant to use AoPS Algebra because of how difficult using the pre-algebra book had been, but others here assured me that it wouldn't be a problem. They were right. There have been no issues (aside from normal learning algebra ones, lol) from using the book alone. Now, I don't know if that is because the book is more user friendly or because that year transitioning to the AoPS method via the online class made the book more accessible.

Oh oh, you've made me rethink about the second semester. We haven't gotten to that point in the book yet, but we're used to the book now and it would be nice to have DD meet some other kids using the same book. Is there any interaction in class?

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Well, not really interaction...

 

There isn't cross talk. At the beginning of each class that my son was in there seemed to be an ever escalating arms race of different smilies and emoticons, but ds never took part, he just laughed.

 

They have screen names (their alcumus handle) and they aren't to disclose where they live or any personal information etc.. They don't really interact or meet each other at all. But ds1 did know that he wasn't the only person suffering through math, lol

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I briefly considered enrolling DD in the pre-a online class, but I will instead use the funds for their Mathcounts class. We were using a combo of SM and MM and I find that the pre-a book is best used according to your child's pace. It's quite a transition; pre-a asks kids to derive rules, not just memorize them. Sometimes you need to take time, think about a concept, and play around with it. I would kick myself if the pace was so fast with the online class that DD gave up on AOPS. I would then have to email Richard and plea for a phone call to DD.

 

 

My dd first dipped her toes into the AoPS water in that Mathcounts class ten years ago. That class helped her to go on to win our regional MC meet here.

 

Their problem solving classes make a great starting place. Dd liked it so much that she then went on to take lots (something like 10?) online AoPS classes after that experience (and will be interviewing for a full time position at their headquarters in a few days...) Hope your dd likes it, too. :001_smile:

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My dd first dipped her toes into the AoPS water in that Mathcounts class ten years ago. That class helped her to go on to win our regional MC meet here.

 

Their problem solving classes make a great starting place. Dd liked it so much that she then went on to take lots (something like 10?) online AoPS classes after that experience (and will be interviewing for a full time position at their headquarters in a few days...) Hope your dd likes it, too. :001_smile:

 

Kathy, if you don't mind, what grade and math levels was your dd at when she took that class?  I'm thinking ahead about how I might get my boys hooked (on mathcrack? I just made that up but you know what I mean LOL).  They're not ready for self-motivated problem solving yet even though their math is in/near the right place (one in prealgebra, one in algebra, both 5th gr).  Peer pressure would help.  I'm thinking maybe 6th?

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Kathy, if you don't mind, what grade and math levels was your dd at when she took that class?  I'm thinking ahead about how I might get my boys hooked (on mathcrack? I just made that up but you know what I mean LOL).  They're not ready for self-motivated problem solving yet even though their math is in/near the right place (one in prealgebra, one in algebra, both 5th gr).  Peer pressure would help.  I'm thinking maybe 6th?

mathcrack... :laugh:

 

Dd was 12 years old & in 7th grade during her MC class.  There weren't nearly as many offerings back then (now there are two levels for MC classes alone), so I held her off till I thought she'd be able to keep moving through at an appropriate level. Now I might put a similar kid in that class a year or two earlier.

 

She was quite social in that class & made friends there & also in the blogs. Helped quite a bit with little Miss Social's motivation :glare: Yep, peer pressure can be a good thing sometimes!

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Another perspective on AoPS PreA: having worked through that level of Alcumus and dipped in and out of the book myself, I can say that this book is never in a million years something my 11 yo could use on her own.  It would just frustrate her and make her cry.  But, teaching it, like wapiti describes, with a whiteboard and working through the problems together in the lesson, and using the book (including the solutions manual!) as a reference to myself, it works out fine.  It's just incredibly time and brain intensive to do it this way.  That could be a function of my particular brain, though, so YMMV.

 

All the teaching you need - all the stuff an instructor would actually say - is in the book.  But not all 6th grade kids are ready to take their instructions by reading the words a math instructor would say to themselves, KWIM?  

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Another perspective on AoPS PreA: having worked through that level of Alcumus and dipped in and out of the book myself, I can say that this book is never in a million years something my 11 yo could use on her own.  It would just frustrate her and make her cry.  But, teaching it, like wapiti describes, with a whiteboard and working through the problems together in the lesson, and using the book (including the solutions manual!) as a reference to myself, it works out fine.  It's just incredibly time and brain intensive to do it this way.  That could be a function of my particular brain, though, so YMMV.

 

All the teaching you need - all the stuff an instructor would actually say - is in the book.  But not all 6th grade kids are ready to take their instructions by reading the words a math instructor would say to themselves, KWIM?  

 

That is how my son did it. My dh was his 'math facilitator' and sat with him during the online class, keeping him on track. We are east coasters and the online class started at 7pm our time. So, he was having his weekly math class after a full school day and a 90 min ballet class. He needed someone to keep him on track for the class.

 

Anyway, ds mostly did Alcumus on his own, but is he missed a couple he would hold off until dh got home. Then dh would sit with him in the evenings while ds worked on alcumus problems or challenge problems. DH would mostly remind ds of what had happened in class, reminding him of key phrases, reminding him to write out all his work not to go too fast etc.

 

They are working much the same way with AoPS algebra. DS reads a section and works on the problems. DH comes home and checks his work and has rework any problems with errors. Sometimes ds gets stuck and dh sits with him providing some guidance and acting as a sounding board.

 

All in all, it has been a very good experience for both of them, lol. Ds2 can't wait until he is old enough for algebra so he can work with daddy.

 

But it is time intensive.

 

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