Spelling help

[Dory]

My dd is about turn to 9 next month and her spelling is still atrocious. 3 years ago it was relatively phonetic, now it's like she's trying to shove rules in where ever she can so that she's at least using them, but there's no rhyme or reason to her choices.

 

When she was in grade one I was doing AAS with her older brother at home and I often left it until later in the afternoon so that the other two could join in after school (I only kept one home that year). For the last year and a half she's been doing R&S. I didn't use AAS with her because it seemed that nothing was sticking at all. Now it's like she's remembering some of the things she learning from A&S, but not where they fit in.

 

I'm not sure where to go from here. It's not a reading problem, she's above her grade level with that and LOVES to read (although she usually skips over conjunctions and short words like that). Her comprehension is wildly good. She remembers stories and facts she's read like no one else I know and can spout them back (as well as telling me which book and page they were from) no problem. I had hoped that when her reading took off, her spelling would start improving as well but it's not happening.

 

Any suggestions on what to do from here?

[Ellie]

My dd is about turn to 9 next month and her spelling is still atrocious. 3 years ago it was relatively phonetic, now it's like she's trying to shove rules in where ever she can so that she's at least using them, but there's no rhyme or reason to her choices.

 

When she was in grade one I was doing AAS with her older brother at home and I often left it until later in the afternoon so that the other two could join in after school (I only kept one home that year). For the last year and a half she's been doing R&S. I didn't use AAS with her because it seemed that nothing was sticking at all. Now it's like she's remembering some of the things she learning from A&S, but not where they fit in.

 

I'm not sure where to go from here. It's not a reading problem, she's above her grade level with that and LOVES to read (although she usually skips over conjunctions and short words like that). Her comprehension is wildly good. She remembers stories and facts she's read like no one else I know and can spout them back (as well as telling me which book and page they were from) no problem. I had hoped that when her reading took off, her spelling would start improving as well but it's not happening.

 

Any suggestions on what to do from here?

 

Spalding. Always Spalding. :-)

[Dory]

Spalding. Always Spalding. :-)

 

I should have remembered that. You've said it enough times. :D Thanks!

[Ellie]

I should have remembered that. You've said it enough times. :D  Thanks!

 

YW. Now, are you going to do it??? Or do I have to come over there? :D

[Dory]

YW. Now, are you going to do it??? Or do I have to come over there? :D

 

Is that a promise? lol

I'm looking through it this afternoon when I have time to try and figure out what I'll need there. Will I just be able to order the grade she's in or should I be starting her in an earlier level?

[bluedarling]

Have you tried Diane Craft technique? http://www.diannecraft.org/language-arts-writing-program/   I had difficulty getting my child to cooperate with the spelling exercise, but he was older.  The Writing 8 exercise helped with his writing, though.  The fact that she skips words also point to a possible issue with visual processing.  I would have her assessed by a developmental optometrist. (That is what helped the most with my oldest.)  Also, the developmental optometrist told us that spelling usually improved quite a bit later than reading...if she just took off on reading, give her a couple years to catch up in the spelling/writing.

[Dory]

Have you tried Diane Craft technique? http://www.diannecraft.org/language-arts-writing-program/   I had difficulty getting my child to cooperate with the spelling exercise, but he was older.  The Writing 8 exercise helped with his writing, though.  The fact that she skips words also point to a possible issue with visual processing.  I would have her assessed by a developmental optometrist. (That is what helped the most with my oldest.)  Also, the developmental optometrist told us that spelling usually improved quite a bit later than reading...if she just took off on reading, give her a couple years to catch up in the spelling/writing.

 

Thanks for the suggestions. We have an optometrist appointment next month, I'll ask him to refer us to a developmental optometrist.

[Ellie]

Is that a promise? lol

I'm looking through it this afternoon when I have time to try and figure out what I'll need there. Will I just be able to order the grade she's in or should I be starting her in an earlier level?

 

Remember that homeschooled children are ages, not grades. :-)

 

You will need the manual and a set of phonogram cards; if your dc is 8yo or older, she will need a spelling notebook (which is a black-and-white, sewn composition book). You will start at the beginning; if she's younger than 8, you'll teach four phonograms a day; if she's older than 8, you'll teach them as quickly as possible.

 

You do NOT need the teacher guides. Those are quite helpful in a classroom situation, but homeschoolers don't need them.

[pocjets]

Remember that homeschooled children are ages, not grades. :-)

 

You will need the manual and a set of phonogram cards; if your dc is 8yo or older, she will need a spelling notebook (which is a black-and-white, sewn composition book). You will start at the beginning; if she's younger than 8, you'll teach four phonograms a day; if she's older than 8, you'll teach them as quickly as possible.

 

You do NOT need the teacher guides. Those are quite helpful in a classroom situation, but homeschoolers don't need them.

Is the manual The Writing Road to Reading? Which edition is the best to buy? Do you buy the phonogram cards from the Spalding website? Thanks-I have one child that can't spell either.

 

.

[Ellie]

Is the manual The Writing Road to Reading? Which edition is the best to buy? Do you buy the phonogram cards from the Spalding website? Thanks-I have one child that can't spell either.

 

.

 

Spalding is the Method; WRTR is the manual. You do Spalding with your children, not WRTR. :-)

 

I have fourth, fifth, and sixth editions of the manual. The method is the same in all of them; it is only that the sixth edition refers to the teacher guides frequently. You can ignore all references to the teacher guide. :-)

 

I am most knowledgeable with the fourth edition, but I can find things in the others if someone has a specific question. Usually, lol. You can buy the phonogram cards for the current edition of the manual on the website; not sure about the fourth and fifth editions. It is best to buy the same edition cards and manual. Do NOT buy non-Spalding phonogram cards; you can make the cards from different editions work, but it's much trickier with phonogram cards from other publishers.

[pocjets]

Spalding is the Method; WRTR is the manual. You do Spalding with your children, not WRTR. :-)

 

I have fourth, fifth, and sixth editions of the manual. The method is the same in all of them; it is only that the sixth edition refers to the teacher guides frequently. You can ignore all references to the teacher guide. :-)

 

I am most knowledgeable with the fourth edition, but I can find things in the others if someone has a specific question. Usually, lol. You can buy the phonogram cards for the current edition of the manual on the website; not sure about the fourth and fifth editions. It is best to buy the same edition cards and manual. Do NOT buy non-Spalding phonogram cards; you can make the cards from different editions work, but it's much trickier with phonogram cards from other publishers.

Thank you!!! 

[Dory]

Remember that homeschooled children are ages, not grades. :-)

 

You will need the manual and a set of phonogram cards; if your dc is 8yo or older, she will need a spelling notebook (which is a black-and-white, sewn composition book). You will start at the beginning; if she's younger than 8, you'll teach four phonograms a day; if she's older than 8, you'll teach them as quickly as possible.

 

You do NOT need the teacher guides. Those are quite helpful in a classroom situation, but homeschoolers don't need them.

 

Thank you!

[OneStepAtATime]

Also second the Developmental Optometrist screening.  Several unusual vision issues that do not show up on normal vision screening assessments but can really trip up reading/spelling.

 

And when you say she is reading above grade level, is that silently or out loud?  Has she ever been assessed for dyslexia?  Some 2e kids have tremendous gifts in the ability to decode enough words to understand the content of passages read silently but are actually dyslexic and need an OG based reading/spelling system to smooth out decoding, reading fluency and spelling.  And they frequently skip words until retrained...

[Dory]

Also second the Developmental Optometrist screening.  Several unusual vision issues that do not show up on normal vision screening assessments but can really trip up reading/spelling.

 

And when you say she is reading above grade level, is that silently or out loud?  Has she ever been assessed for dyslexia?  Some 2e kids have tremendous gifts in the ability to decode enough words to understand the content of passages read silently but are actually dyslexic and need an OG based reading/spelling system to smooth out decoding, reading fluency and spelling.  And they frequently skip words until retrained...

 

She stumbles and slows down more when I have her read out loud. If she reads silently she does MUCH better. I've wondered about dyslexia for awhile but I'm not even sure where to begin with getting her assessed for that. She reads well enough out loud that she is still acceptable for her age. If I let her she would read encyclopedias and mystery novels all day long silently to herself and remember every detail. If I write for her she narrates beautifully and can put together lovely book reports, although her grammar still has a ways to go. But then all that reading and remembering is done silently and I hadn't really thought of that. She does read out loud to me twice a week yet and that's where I've noticed the simple words being skipped.

 

When my son was assessed for his APD it was all through the school. So where does one go for an assessment like this? Or will talking to my optometrist be a good start with that as well?

 

[Dory]

I know it's silly and immature, and I'm already dealing with it so it shouldn't be that big a deal, but it's almost like the elephant in the room that I wish I didn't have to deal with. I love my kids, I really do, and I'm proud of them, but the idea of two 2e kids makes me want to sit and cry for a second. And the youngest is like a super intense version of the first two in that way. I'm finally starting to realize what some older homeschool moms were talking about when they warned about overdoing it and burning out.

[sbgrace]

:grouphug:
It always overwhelms me entirely when my "much less complicated in every way" son has any issue at all.

 

http://www.dys-add.com/dyslexia.html Here are some signs of dyslexia.

 

Do you think she's decoding well when reading silently? Can she read nonsense words or words she's never seen before accurately?

 

Some kids learn spelling well with rules. If you think she's one of those, pick a rule based program for sure. Spalding wouldn't be my choice if dyslexia is a consideration because of the pacing of material. If it's just that she needs to learn those rules, Spalding would be fine. We used Phonics Road, but it has similar pacing issues. AAS has better pacing for dyslexia. I  post here by Elizabeth B with some good information and various programs--reading and some talk about spelling too http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/183466-elizabeth-b-remedial-reading-question/

 

She may be a child who would learn spelling better with patterns. I have one of those. We did a really strong rule based program and never made good progress. We're doing Apples and Pears Spelling now, and it's been fantastic. Because of her prolific reading, I wouldn't expect the types of spelling errors you seem to be describing if she had a decent visual memory for words. My child with those issues is the one who is finally progressing, I'd say flourishing really, with Apples and Pears.

[Dory]

This is the last thing she wrote. It took her ages, but she was determined to do it because her brother was writing one as well.

 

   I have a pet dog. a girl. She's a Coker Spiknel Her nam it KitKat after her chiklakte clolared fer. If you look stait at her and she reaghlies she'll stare back with her mostern sice eyes. And if I don't bet her to my room fur bed time she'll tack my spot on the bed. When somone hegs me and she reahlizes she'll terie to seraet us. It seams like she's saying "She's mine not yours." It's so funny sometims. I think her faeferit thing to do is stand one The big snow pill wait for a Chichadeet come, and terie to cech it. But she never cot one yet. She's such a funy dog. I wunder why she flows me everywhere. When I play fech with her she'll get the ball but dos not bering it back. She walks past me.

 

 

That's not all of it, but it shows a bit of her imaginative spelling. I find it interesting that she doesn't even spell 'realizes' the same twice.

 

Oh, and the letter sizes are all funky but I can't show that on here as easily.

[Dory]

:grouphug:

It always overwhelms me entirely when my "much less complicated in every way" son has any issue at all.

 

http://www.dys-add.com/dyslexia.html Here are some signs of dyslexia.

 

Do you think she's decoding well when reading silently? Can she read nonsense words or words she's never seen before accurately?

 

Some kids learn spelling well with rules. If you think she's one of those, pick a rule based program for sure. Spalding wouldn't be my choice if dyslexia is a consideration because of the pacing of material. If it's just that she needs to learn those rules, Spalding would be fine. We used Phonics Road, but it has similar pacing issues. AAS has better pacing for dyslexia. I  post here by Elizabeth B with some good information and various programs--reading and some talk about spelling too http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/183466-elizabeth-b-remedial-reading-question/

 

She may be a child who would learn spelling better with patterns. I have one of those. We did a really strong rule based program and never made good progress. We're doing Apples and Pears Spelling now, and it's been fantastic. Because of her prolific reading, I wouldn't expect the types of spelling errors you seem to be describing if she had a decent visual memory for words. My child with those issues is the one who is finally progressing, I'd say flourishing really, with Apples and Pears.

 

Thanks for the links and suggestions. Extra info is always good. I learned spelling with a very rule based program and I've always brought a lot of that into whatever else we are using. It works great for my oldest, with her it doesn't sink any further than it needs to to get through the lesson. We do a spelling lesson, she gets all the words right and then two days later can't spell them anymore. We are just finishing R&S level 2 book right now and she is finally hitting words that she can't hold in her mind long enough to get through the test and only one or two of them.

I haven't ever had her read nonsense words before, I'll have to play around with that tomorrow with her. I don't think her decoding skills are very strong, not because she hasn't been taught phonics rules, but she seems to guess at words she doesn't know based on the first few letters and the words she already knows in the sentence. It works horribly well for her thus far but I know it's hitting it's limits because eventually she's going to be reading books that she won't be able to guess nearly so easily. I think her guessing is why so many suffixes get changed or left off.

[OneStepAtATime]

She stumbles and slows down more when I have her read out loud. If she reads silently she does MUCH better. I've wondered about dyslexia for awhile but I'm not even sure where to begin with getting her assessed for that. She reads well enough out loud that she is still acceptable for her age. If I let her she would read encyclopedias and mystery novels all day long silently to herself and remember every detail. If I write for her she narrates beautifully and can put together lovely book reports, although her grammar still has a ways to go. But then all that reading and remembering is done silently and I hadn't really thought of that. She does read out loud to me twice a week yet and that's where I've noticed the simple words being skipped.

 

When my son was assessed for his APD it was all through the school. So where does one go for an assessment like this? Or will talking to my optometrist be a good start with that as well?

 

 

 

I know it's silly and immature, and I'm already dealing with it so it shouldn't be that big a deal, but it's almost like the elephant in the room that I wish I didn't have to deal with. I love my kids, I really do, and I'm proud of them, but the idea of two 2e kids makes me want to sit and cry for a second. And the youngest is like a super intense version of the first two in that way. I'm finally starting to realize what some older homeschool moms were talking about when they warned about overdoing it and burning out.

Teaching 2e kids can truly be exhausting, especially if you don't really know all of their strengths and weaknesses.  To get a full blown assessment that would actually show you not just weaknesses but strengths too, you would need to go to a neuro-psychologist or edu-psychologist with 2e experience.  Getting concrete answers could help you properly target her weaknesses AND her strengths.  You might read The Dyslexic Advantage by Brock and Fernette Eide for some info and perspective.  There are lots of other books on learning differences, but what you describe sounds very much like a 2e dyslexic, IME, and that book may help you more than the other books I could recommend right at this moment.

 

My son is an excellent narrator and got straight A's in school all the way through until he hit mid-2nd grade.  My daughter made A's and B's but struggled mightily all the way from 4k through 5th.  They are both dyslexic (though we didn't know it at the time they were still in school) but have different strengths and weaknesses so they presented very differently.  The strengths were not being fully tapped and were masking the weaknesses.  The weaknesses were masking the strengths.  Once we had detailed, concrete answers, we started them on a much better program for reading and spelling and were able to target the weaknesses far more effectively as well as give them a chance to thrive in their strengths.  Truly an eye opening experience.

[Dory]

Found and booked an appointment with a psychologist that does psycho-educational assessments. Hopefully it will give us some answers.

[OneStepAtATime]

Found and booked an appointment with a psychologist that does psycho-educational assessments. Hopefully it will give us some answers.

I hope so, too.  You might also consider getting a preliminary vision screening through a Developmental Optometrist to check for heterophoria, tracking and convergence issues, etc.  These do not normally show up on a standard vision exam but can cause difficulties with reading and spelling.  

 

For instance, DS has 20/15 or better vision, but he also has heterophoria (one eye is tracking higher than the other) so he has a lot of eye strain trying to keep his eyes moving together across the page. As fatigue sets in, and his eyes don't track as well together, words get skipped.  Normal vision screenings never showed this issue.  I finally asked specifically for this type of eval through an Optometrist that can provide this type of assessment because much of what I was seeing with him seemed to sound like what many others were seeing with their dc who also seem very bright but have learning issues with regard to reading and spelling.  It was nice to find out another piece to the puzzle and get answers for how to address the issue.

[Dolphin]

I had a similar problem. Fantastic reader, way ahead of his age. Horrible speller. We have happily been using Phonetic Zoo for almost 2 years now, and I love it. Here is a huge review I wrote about it.

[coffeefreak]

Dory,

Does your daughter copy OK?  So, like when you do copywork, are there minimal errors?  I'm curious because my dd writes like your daughter and makes at least one spelling error per copywork assignment.  I knew she wasn't a great speller, but I thought we were doing OK.  However, she's 11, 5th grade and it's starting to hold her back with writing.  This has been a very helpful thread for me (Hi Ellie! :seeya: ).  I didn't think to have my dd evaluated, but now I'm wondering when that decision should be made.  If you feel led, I'd love to know what they say in the evaluation.

 

Blessings!

Dorinda

[Dory]

Dory,

Does your daughter copy OK?  So, like when you do copywork, are there minimal errors?  I'm curious because my dd writes like your daughter and makes at least one spelling error per copywork assignment.  I knew she wasn't a great speller, but I thought we were doing OK.  However, she's 11, 5th grade and it's starting to hold her back with writing.  This has been a very helpful thread for me (Hi Ellie! :seeya: ).  I didn't think to have my dd evaluated, but now I'm wondering when that decision should be made.  If you feel led, I'd love to know what they say in the evaluation.

 

Blessings!

Dorinda

 

Her copywork is much better of course, but she usually has one or two misspelled words in it. Which always baffled me because really, the words right there, just copy the proper spelling down, but obviously it isn't that easy for her.

 

The assessment won't be for a couple weeks, but I wouldn't have a problem with sharing a little of it. The cost has made me choke a little, but I'd rather get it over with now and get some forward movement happening than wait until it was holding her back seriously.