Thank God I Wasn't College Material-thoughts on blog

[Caroline]

About the military, my students who enlisted were all college ready, and in fact had college acceptances. (We're taking 4-5's on AP exams...) they decided to join the military (mostly Marines) because there was no money at all for college. So I guess what I am trying to say is that getting into the military isn't easy, either.

[FaithManor]

It might be genetic... you should see (and would probably be aghast at) our house - one puny bathroom for 5 people and those vintage appliances/carpets, etc?  How in the world did we ever survive? :D   We merely opt to spend our $$ elsewhere (being travel junkies and all).  For some of us, our belongings in a backpack and a passport are pretty close to an ideal world.

Creekland, we are about to embark upon that life.

 

Simplifying, paying off everything, passports for everyone, backpacks, and go. The only thing we have to figure out is care for the dog!

[Sebastian (a lady)]

When you talk about joining the military you are discussing a widely diverse set of specialties. Anything from being an unrated seaman on a ship who joins with no specialty or training outside of bootcamp to a technical specialist like a nuclear trained engineer or avionics technician or military linguist who might have a year or more of school between bootcamp and reporting to their first non-school unit. Some specialties are trade related and almost craftsmen (like my level 1 welders in the Hull Tech rating or the Machinery Repairmen who created parts from stock metal). Others require personal or organizational skills or analysis like the intelligence specialists and meterogists. And this is just within enlisted ratings.

 

There are different requirements and quotas and caps for different ratings. The requirements to join the Navy are different than the requirements to be guaranteed a sought after technical rating with a school after boot camp and more specialty schools during the career.

 

What's more some rating are very competitive for promotion. I had sailors working for me in ratings that only made one or two promotions to Chief Petty Officer per year.

 

It's important to get context of branch, specialty and era of service when someone tells you about how it is in the military. Just in the decade I was active duty we went from a Cold War build up towards a 600 ship navy to a post Cold War draw down and Peace Dividend budget cuts; from restrictions on what ships women could be on (tenders only when I joined) to lifting all restrictions on ships; from a few years post recession to dot com boom to dot com bust. There were small short wars but the Navy's 6 month deployments plus work up cycle was about as long as it got. Now there are folks with several year long deployments under their belts.

 

Many of the enlisted sailors I worked with had degrees or some college. Many more could have but had gone into technical majors instead. And there was a swinging expectation that sailors would be capable of the higher level thinking characteristic of college level readiness. I didn't use to be good at logic puzzles, by aced that part of the GRE because I'd spent so much time creating interlocking watchbill and maintenance schedules.

 

Even the high school only unrated firemen in my boilers division had to be able to follow detailed maintenance directions or use a tech manual to troubleshoot a pump.

 

The era of dropping out of high school or getting into trouble and going before a judge and joining the military are fading away. Especially with the current drawdowns and high unemployment. There are too many want to join or reup to not be picky.

[MBM]

Many of the oil workers do have college degrees. My brothers paid for theirs by working on the rigs but a college degree is not necessary for many of the jobs. If someone is hard working, reliable and very resourceful, they'll do fine out there.

[Erin]

I agree.  Like I mentioned in my first post in the thread, my husband says an easy 1/2 of his co-workers have a degree and have left a career in something else, either voluntarily or in response to the economic slow-down.  

 

 

 

My point on this was that the vast majority of those "most dangerous jobs" were filled with those who didn't go to college.  Is it because they truly like those jobs or couldn't find anything else?  I suspect a combo of both, but what percentage in each end?

I don't know.  I hadn't really thought about that aspect. 

 

I was just responding to the mistaken idea that oil is "among the most hazardous jobs in the world," when it doesn't even make the top ten.  And I thought it interesting that not only is it safer than something like traveling salesman or garbage man, but it also pays considerably better.   

[MysteryJen]

Just a comment about the military as an option for young people. I found myself watching the AFC championship (Go Broncos!) with a group of teenage boys. They are all very different in ability and family situation so I asked them if they had thought about the military as an option after high school.  To a man, they said that their mothers wouldn't let them.  There is a real sense now that the military is dangerous and you could be killed. They all said that college was a safer option.

 

It was a very different reaction from when I was in high school.

[Erin]

We had some neighbors a few years ago with a family of five kids.  That was always the suggestion for the kids; use the military to pay for college.  

The first one to do so joined the Guard in 2000, and started college.  In 2001 he went to Iraq...  

 

Mom and Dad took out loans for the next ones who went to college.  

They refused to support any more kids joining up.  

 

 

 

Ironically, their oldest had married a guy in the Air Force who made the point that if the government ever gave him a gun we'd all better panic because the hordes are at the gate!

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Just a comment about the military as an option for young people. I found myself watching the AFC championship (Go Broncos!) with a group of teenage boys. They are all very different in ability and family situation so I asked them if they had thought about the military as an option after high school.  To a man, they said that their mothers wouldn't let them.  There is a real sense now that the military is dangerous and you could be killed. They all said that college was a safer option.

 

It was a very different reaction from when I was in high school.

 

There was a concerted effort in some schools to keep recruiters out or to be less than honest about opportunities in the military not only because it was perceived as dangerous, but also because of a dislike of the military in general.

 

I can understand the concern as a mom.  There are career paths within the military that I'm not so eager to see my son doing.  But then, the thought of his driving himself to swim practice also gives me chills. I'm not sure I'd be less concerned about his working a job that required a lot of driving or late nights working alone than I would about his flying a jet (his dream).

 

I did have one young man come up at a career fair and ask if the Navy was the safest service. I couldn't help but laugh at the question. If safety is your number one concern, then joining the military in a non-draft era doesn't make a ton of sense. There is always the risk of mishap. Even ships and airfields are industrial settings.  Though of the serious injuries I remember from my active duty (pre September 11th days) most of the injuries were sport and driving related and a high percentage of those involved alcohol (not necessarily on the side of the military member). Suicide was also a leading cause of death, not because the 1990s were rife with PTSD, but because suicide is a leading cause of death for young men and the military has a disproportionate number of young men.

[creekland]

Creekland, we are about to embark upon that life.

 

Simplifying, paying off everything, passports for everyone, backpacks, and go. The only thing we have to figure out is care for the dog!

When our last dog passed away, I VERY firmly told the kids - "No more dogs/puppies!" The only issue we have to deal with right now are college tuitions... then med school (probably)... and this medical issue I'm dealing with (GRR!) - BUT... I got the "ok" to travel with that one, so will be plotting some weekends away at the very least. ;)

[Ohdanigirl]

 

 

ETA: As far as college later being easier: Those of my female students who are mothers to small children would collectively disagree.

 

I have to agree.  I did go to college straight out of high school, but took time off after my first semester  when my brother passed.  I later decided to enroll in a community college. I was 7 1/2 months pregnant, but figured it would be harder if I didn't start getting used to it before my son arrived.  It was a real struggle.  I think I averaged about 3 hours of sleep a night.  I had to learn to be very organized, multi-task like crazy, and pinch a lot of pennies.  Looking back, I don't know how I did it and really admire those that go back to school later in life.  It is not easy.

[Mama Geek]

No, but 50% of the young people happen to be female. What options do women have that would be equally lucrative?

 

If you take 1 drafting course and get into a drafting pool at an engineering company that does oil and gas work, it shouldn't take long to work your way up to designer status.  Contract designers make almost as much per hour as contract engineers and they get paid time and a half for overtime.  I have worked as a lead engineer in an engineering company supporting the oil industry and my dh currently still does.  

 

I do know a guy that went up to the Dakotas when his business in Florida was going under and worked 6 months and came home.  I have known a few people who have worked in the Dakotas and yes you can just get in your vehicle and go up there and find work.  We don't because the oil industry on the gulf coast is paying almost as much and it is much cheaper to live as well as the weather is much better.  

[Mama Geek]

I suppose you could always show up in Dutch Harbor and try to get a job on a crab boat, maybe the Northwestern or the Cornelia Marie. I hear that pays pretty well, although I think you need a connection.

 

Around here, kids who don't go to college work at the Food Depot, the Family Dollar, the taco truck, various Mexican restaurants, Little Cesar's, flip the arrow around on the street corner, and currently, dressing up like the Statue of Liberty and standing on the street corner. Real Estate offices hire office assistants that don't necessarily have degrees, but a degree is preferred. I have had a number of grads go into the military. (I teach high school seniors.)

I know someone that used to fish in Dutch Harbor, you do have to have connections and even then most don't last very long.

[Mama Geek]

For blue collar oil work which may also involve travel I would go to a town that has work, Houston, Beaumont, Lake Charles, Norco, LA, etc. and stop and talk to the workers staying in hotels.  Dh is an engineer and we have stayed in many hotels over the years.  There are so many refinery workers to be found this way it isn't funny.

[Laura Corin]

I was thinking last night at what I was doing at 25 and how frdinca's advice would have worked out for me.  I was, um, here on the boards, getting ready to homeschool!  I had a BA and some grad school and education experience under my belt, and I was ready to do what I was trying to do.  I wouldn't have my happy life now if I had chosen some kind of protracted life based on someone else's opinions.  Frankly, I probably wouldn't even have my kids, because my fertility seems to have decreased radically (along with my health) over the years.  That's not at ALL uncommon for women to wait and later have issues with fertility, etc.  

 

By the time I was 25, I had used my university degree to get jobs teaching English in France, China and Taiwan, had worked my way through two years of language school becoming proficient in Mandarin, was about to start technical writing for Acer, and had just met my husband-to-be.  Getting that degree allowed me to start my life - I would not have got those jobs without it.  The major was not directly relevant to the jobs, but I needed a degree.

 

L

[HS Mom in NC]

I think the goal of K-12 education should be to prepare students for all of the possibilities: college for a useful degree, entrepreneurship, skilled labor, and the military.  Since no one can actually predict what a child will do when (s)he's an adult, nor can they predict what will be in demand in the future economy,  we need to provide academics and life skills that prepare them for all possibilities.

 

Way too many students get college degrees that are too much debt load for their earning potential.  They have to start thinking like adults and do a cost/benefit analysis rather than naively thinking a degree is automatically worth the cost of getting it. 

 

My oldest (18) is studying independently to be a DONA doula then a homebirth midwife. She has a student homebirth midwifery internship lined up for this fall. She'll intern for several years as a student midwife and study for licensing exams and such while working as a doula.  College doesn't make sense for her career path, but I did make her take 1 semester at the community college the last semester of high school last year so she could have a classroom experience.

 

My middle daughter (16) is in community college and is interested in a career in the sciences.  A college degree will make sense for her.

 

My youngest (8) wants to have her own Tae Kwon Do school, which would require a lot of advanced training, but not college. She could change her mind tomorrow, so we'll see. 

 

 

 

[elegantlion]

Another issue is that the reality of what I was told as a teen. My generation (Xers) lack the job stability of their parents. It's unusual to work for one company from graduation to retirement. Not only are some people changing companies, they are changing entire industries. In my working days, I did everything from retail to veterinary assistant to insurance underwriting assistant and a few things in between. 

 

A degree allows some flexibility when transitioning between industries. Obviously there are technical fields that don't have that provision, but for many jobs any degree will get your resume in the pile. 

 

Without a degree or certification it is harder to move from industry to industry. Physical labor is one of those. Yes, many of those fields are necessary, pay well, and are available. What happens if you want to change careers? If you are forced to because of physical reasons? a 20 year old carpenter's life is not so bad, ask them again when they're 50. Bodies break. People change their minds about careers. We're in a technological shift, industries are blooming while others are dying. It is my belief to help my son succeed (whatever that means) in these transitional times, he will need a degree. He may not use it at 22, he may be glad to have it at 40 if he wants to change careers. 

 

Regardless of preparedness it is infinitely easier to continue your education after high school that is it to fit it after you have more adult responsibilities, such as job, household, or family. Some people can do whatever it takes. I'm pretty determined as a 46 year old college freshman, but you know what. I'm tired. I have a thousand other things beside school that need attention and I don't even have little kids or a dh coming home wanting dinner. Now I have to go worry about lunch, late lunch, but lunch none the less. 

[regentrude]

Physical labor is one of those. Yes, many of those fields are necessary, pay well, and are available. What happens if you want to change careers? If you are forced to because of physical reasons? a 20 year old carpenter's life is not so bad, ask them again when they're 50. Bodies break. People change their minds about careers. We're in a technological shift, industries are blooming while others are dying. It is my belief to help my son succeed (whatever that means) in these transitional times, he will need a degree. He may not use it at 22, he may be glad to have it at 40 if he wants to change careers. 

 

I am not sure how terribly useful a 20 year old degree will be if the person has never worked a related job and kept the skills up to date. I'd think one would have to relearn pretty much everything... anybody remember computers and software from 20 years ago?

 

But I absolutely agree with this:

 

 

Regardless of preparedness it is infinitely easier to continue your education after high school that is it to fit it after you have more adult responsibilities, such as job, household, or family. Some people can do whatever it takes. I'm pretty determined as a 46 year old college freshman, but you know what. I'm tired. I have a thousand other things beside school that need attention and I don't even have little kids or a dh coming home wanting dinner.

 

I see this all the time with my non traditional (aka older) students. I have quite a few who start college in their 40s because they can no longer do the physically demanding job, some because of accidents. Much more difficult, especially if they have families.

[creekland]

I am not sure how terribly useful a 20 year old degree will be if the person has never worked a related job and kept the skills up to date. I'd think one would have to relearn pretty much everything... anybody remember computers and software from 20 years ago?

There really are jobs where one just needs "a" degree to check a box though. They don't expect you to actually use anything you learned. They just want it for statistics or some sort of perceived value (I guess). Without "a" degree you can't even apply, or if applying, you'll be overlooked in favor of those who have that piece of paper. In general, as long it's obtained without significant debt, a degree is never worthless.

[kiana]

There really are jobs where one just needs "a" degree to check a box though. They don't expect you to actually use anything you learned. They just want it for statistics or some sort of perceived value (I guess). Without "a" degree you can't even apply, or if applying, you'll be overlooked in favor of those who have that piece of paper. In general, as long it's obtained without significant debt, a degree is never worthless.

 

Because they figure that at least you're literate, since a high school diploma is no guarantee.

[Barbara H]

There really are jobs where one just needs "a" degree to check a box though. They don't expect you to actually use anything you learned. They just want it for statistics or some sort of perceived value (I guess). Without "a" degree you can't even apply, or if applying, you'll be overlooked in favor of those who have that piece of paper. In general, as long it's obtained without significant debt, a degree is never worthless.

 

I agree. Also, even if you find you are in a situation at 40 where you have to retrain, if you are starting with a bachelor's degree in anything you are in a much better situation than if you are starting 100% from scratch. Four years to finish off that bachelor's, but it might be six months to add some computer certification or a year and a half to get a Master's degree. I've seen this quite a bit with homeschool mom friends trying to transition to careers in their 40s.

[PeterPan]

...I did have one young man come up at a career fair and ask if the Navy was the safest service. I couldn't help but laugh at the question....

:iagree:   My dad has a 100% disability after 20 years in the Navy.  It happens.

[MBM]

I do know a guy that went up to the Dakotas when his business in Florida was going under and worked 6 months and came home.  I have known a few people who have worked in the Dakotas and yes you can just get in your vehicle and go up there and find work.  We don't because the oil industry on the gulf coast is paying almost as much and it is much cheaper to live as well as the weather is much better.  

 

The biggest problem in ND/MT is finding housing. The market is still tight and pricey in some areas. If anyone is interested in working there, make sure you have a place to stay.

[Mama Geek]

Places can be found and I do know that people have pulled up camping trailers to stay in, although I wouldn't want to do that without a specially designed camper.

[Erin]

The RV parks in Williston crack me up.  

Most of them have an entrance/lean-to built onto them.  Some of these more than double the size of the camper!  lol A lot of them have hay bales stacked up around them...

[MBM]

Places can be found and I do know that people have pulled up camping trailers to stay in, although I wouldn't want to do that without a specially designed camper.

 

I'm not disputing that places can be found, but rentals are more expensive in some parts of the Bakken Shale than others. Lower rents can be found in towns that are farther away but the commutes can make an already long day a lot longer especially during winter when travel can be more hazardous due to snow storms and icy roads. RV hookups charge per month, too; however, I wouldn't be surprised if some people do live in their cars or camping trailers.

 

My point is that it is prudent to get information, a lot of which can be found on the internet, before traveling out there.

 

ETA: If anyone is interested in oil jobs in MT/ND, check out city-data.com. Here are a few posts discussing housing and jobs in Williston, ND:

 

http://www.city-data.com/forum/williston/1895737-move-williston-still-doable-5.html

http://www.city-data.com/forum/williston/1413475-put-my-2-weeks-notice-then-12.html

http://www.city-data.com/forum/williston/1547486-williston-may-outlaw-living-rvs.html

[Guest maried123]

I know this is an old post, but it is new to me.   Thanks for sharing the link to that article.  It is really something I really needed to read tonight.  

 

My son, whom was homeschooled all his life, is now in his senior year. e should be applying to colleges, but something does not feel right about it.   We're thinking of  a gap year or just giving him time to do work on his own.  He is very ceative and an incredible artist and an animator.    I don't feel like I should rush him nor push him into college, just the same way I did not feel I should push hm in school. 

 

Here is my favorite quote from this article: "You have to put some skin in the game. You have to find your niche and master it. You have to be the best. Conquer it, whatever it is that you want to do. Be better than everyone. Be a visionary while everybody else is checking the handbook. Take risks while everybody else stays cozy and comfortable. Be good at something. Then, once you’re good, become great."

 

[creekland]

I know this is an old post, but it is new to me.   Thanks for sharing the link to that article.  It is really something I really needed to read tonight.  

 

My son, whom was homeschooled all his life, is now in his senior year. e should be applying to colleges, but something does not feel right about it.   We're thinking of  a gap year or just giving him time to do work on his own.  He is very ceative and an incredible artist and an animator.    I don't feel like I should rush him nor push him into college, just the same way I did not feel I should push hm in school. 

 

Here is my favorite quote from this article: "You have to put some skin in the game. You have to find your niche and master it. You have to be the best. Conquer it, whatever it is that you want to do. Be better than everyone. Be a visionary while everybody else is checking the handbook. Take risks while everybody else stays cozy and comfortable. Be good at something. Then, once you’re good, become great."

 

A gap year can be a good choice for many students.  The key to it is to have them work and explore different opportunities available to them.  I often tell students to keep watch and keep an open mind.  When they see something they think is appealing, check into it more.

 

Yesterday after school I was talking with a senior who is heavily into video games and animation.  He went to a conference where different aspects of all of it were discussed in small courses or classes (or something similar) and has decided to go to a small program where students focus on this.  This program has contacts and is good with networking (hearsay - I haven't looked into it myself).  Supposedly previous grads have done well getting into the field.

 

Our world is full of a multitude of niches our kids can fill.  Getting to one they like that will help them be successful (able to support themselves and, if chosen, a family) can sometimes seen bewildering.  If they can find someone who is already there and who knows current "needs" for the job, it's very helpful.

 

Best wishes to you and your son!

[G5052]

I know this is an old post, but it is new to me.   Thanks for sharing the link to that article.  It is really something I really needed to read tonight.  

 

My son, whom was homeschooled all his life, is now in his senior year. e should be applying to colleges, but something does not feel right about it.   We're thinking of  a gap year or just giving him time to do work on his own.  He is very ceative and an incredible artist and an animator.    I don't feel like I should rush him nor push him into college, just the same way I did not feel I should push hm in school. 

 

Here is my favorite quote from this article: "You have to put some skin in the game. You have to find your niche and master it. You have to be the best. Conquer it, whatever it is that you want to do. Be better than everyone. Be a visionary while everybody else is checking the handbook. Take risks while everybody else stays cozy and comfortable. Be good at something. Then, once you’re good, become great."

 

Yes, this is key.

 

I teach at two community colleges, and I would say that about 1/2 of my students probably shouldn't be there for various reasons. Either they aren't committed to the amount of work or they don't have any kind of reasonable goal in mind or they aren't ready academically. There are a host of other reasons too why they aren't into it. I also know that some get there and find "it" and go on. However, this bears out in a 25% or so graduation rate five years after entry. Most don't keep on.

 

In general, I wouldn't send a kid to college who didn't have a goal in mind and who isn't motivated to work hard getting there. It's certainly OK to explore a few fields and even change majors, but if they're deep in the "I don't knows," I would have them work for a year.

 

I talked this morning to one of my husband's brothers whose son is going to work for a year before starting community college. He graduated in May 2015 and was going to do it this fall and would have qualified for significant need-based aid. But he's a kid who isn't into book learning and who basically doesn't have any idea at all what he wants to study. His sister went to college so he thought he would too. When they discussed it further, they realized that he probably should work and let it "simmer" for a year. So they withdrew him and are going to reevaluate six months from now. And I think that's fine.

 

My own 2015 graduate is in college with a major that he's already enjoying and is doing beautifully. He's only a month in and is talking about different things he could do after graduation and what he likes and dislikes about certain areas in his major. Naturally things could change, but his enthusiasm encourages me that we made the right choice to go ahead and send him. We had considered a gap year to work because he felt so uncertain about it all, but now that he's in, he likes it. Just before graduation we worked out a potential major and did some research over the summer, and that paid off.