Thank God I Wasn't College Material-thoughts on blog

[Erin]

Yeah I wonder what kind of jobs are out there for non college grads.

 

Well...since you asked....

 

 

 

My DH has a bachelor's in agri-business.  He's run a couple of ranches, he's had an offer to run a large grain handling facility, but he's currently driving a semi in the oil field in North Dakota, hauling frack sand.  Needless to say there is no need for college, though a good 50% of his co-workers have a Bachelors or higher.  

Bottom end pay for this type of work is about $80K.  Bottom end.  There are guys who are making upwards of $150K with some experience and hauling more dangerous loads, like crude.  

A CDL is nothing more than a glorified driver's license.  There is a booklet that needs to be studied, a long-ish written test to be taken, and a driving test that most people flunk the first time. ;)  You are not required to go to driver's school, though that's one way of getting a license and some experience.  Trap got his many years ago when he was 20 and, ironically enough, working a college job for the county road department.  

 

We have a friend who has never gone to school who works on rigs, instead of for service companies (which is how Trap's job is defined).  He makes about $120K a year, never having gone to college.   However, unlike a truck driver, working on rigs is considerably harder on the body.  Brian made the comment recently that he's thinking about going back to school for engineering.  That way he can hang out in the engineer shack, monitoring computer screens and watching Netflix instead of on a drill rig in -30º weather...  He said, the guys with some REAL experience, as well as that degree, can work as consultants and make $1000+ a day.  

 

 

This conversation has been VERY fresh in mind the past couple of months or so.  The kids and I went to ND over Thanksgiving this year and Trap took us along on a load.  Being middle management in his company, he knew the higher-ups on the frack site and got permission to take us up on a platform to overlook the site and get a "tour."

Buck, standing up there in his borrowed hard hat, made the pronouncement that he hopes the boom is still going when he gets out of high school...  I'll also add that when his father mentioned we should have gone in the engineer shack to see what THEY do, I was more than a little disgusted.   :001_rolleyes:  

Good grief, Dad!  Show the boy the guys that are out here on this cool site and are RUNNING THE SHOW because they went to college. 

 

 

But my point is, just because someone doesn't go to college doesn't automatically mean McDonalds is their only option.

[Crimson Wife]

Having seen firsthand the good that the military, service programs like City Year, and missionary work have done in helping immature teens I know grow up and become responsible adults, I'm actually somewhat sympathetic to the idea of mandatory service like a lot of countries have after high school. Maybe our society could pay for 2 years of college or trade school after the completion of 2 years of service.

[regentrude]

Having seen firsthand the good that the military, service programs like City Year, and missionary work have done in helping immature teens I know grow up and become responsible adults, I'm actually somewhat sympathetic to the idea of mandatory service like a lot of countries have after high school. Maybe our society could pay for 2 years of college or trade school after the completion of 2 years of service.

 

While I agree that this can be very helpful for immature teens, I am opposed to the concept of mandatory anything.

[PeterPan]

That is a pov worth considering. I would very much like to know how a parents gets a high schooler to be more independent. My son is an 8th grader....so I am almost upon those Hs years.

You know the humor in this is that those of us who have very independent kids sometimes wish we could chill them out and make them a LITTLE less self-determined, lol.  It does come with consequences.   :lol:   

 

I really don't know how my kid ended up that way.  Frankly, I think it was because I rejected the parent-knows-best infant parenting practices the church near me was doing (in the name of it Turning Kids Out Right) and went with a very responsive style from day one.  We've always encouraged her to take responsibility and own decisions.  When my ds asks me for something, I ask him if he has money.  When he says no, I ask him when he's going to get a job.  I give him NOTHING simply for existing.  I give him anything he needs or I deign to, simply because I'm a kind, benevolent parent, but my kids get no allowance or anything simply for EXISTING.  They also are told upfront they own nothing, that the house is mine, to treat my stuff responsibly, etc.  

 

​I have no clue if any of that is why my dd is so blazing independent.  I can tell you she is.  At 5 or 6, I forget which, she packed up a suitcase and went to Grandma's to live permanently.  Grandma returned her of course.  Call me a negligent parent, lol.  

 

You've got what you've got.  Encourage the value of work.  Don't give handouts.  Have them take responsibility for decisions.  Give them opportunities to make decisions and then have them OWN the consequences of those decisions.  My dd buys the groceries every week and has for years.  She's decisive and the kind of person who can get things done.  My ds is trying to be the inverse, wanting people to run the tv for him, blah blah, simply because he can't read.  He said that today, and I told him to GO FIGURE IT OUT.  I will not do for you, what you can do for yourself if you try.  A lot of moms DO for their kids and the kids love it and stay young.  They cook for them and wash for them and...  I don't know, you can call me a bad parent.  Go ahead, because maybe there's some truth to it.  :) 

[creekland]

Maybe I have been hanging around WTM boards too long, but it feels like most people push college. Yes I totally agree kids probably need something. I am thinking ds could benefit by getting auto-cad certification while still in high school....he could support himself with it and decide if he wants to put the effort into engineering.

 

I am in a situation where I really need to go to work when ds gets launched.....maybe I need to look into some of those training programs!

 

It does seem like we push 4 year schools, but I know most of us actually mean post high school education of some sort.  It's just easier to type "college."  Two or four year schools, trade schools, or, for some who can find them, apprenticeships all can work.

 

What is really difficult to do much with is the plain ole high school diploma.  One can enlist in the military if they qualify, work in a family business - or with connections - other businesses (construction, etc), do farming (many farmers here actually send their kids to 4 year schools for Ag degrees of some sort), work retail, work fast food, and probably a few other things I'm not thinking of, but the list is rather short and one often needs connections to get a good-paying job with just a high school diploma in today's world.  The blog writer made it seem like it was the path to take as a default.  I, personally, don't feel it is a wise choice for many.  Fifty years ago?  Sure.  2014?  I don't think so

 

[elegantlion]

Another issue I had a hard time with as a young adult was finances. My parents showed me the emergency checkbook and we knew not to bug dad while he did taxes, yet aside from that we didn't learn how to manage money. During that time period creditors would mail you credit cards without being asked. To an untrained 18 year old making minimum wage working in retail (my face around consumerism all day), who would pass up a "free" $500 to your favorite store. As mentioned above, I knew how to work well, had ethics, but no financial training. 

 

To that end, ds has been getting allowance since he was two and could help me unload the dishwasher. It was vital to us that we teach him how to operate well financially. At 16, it's old hat. He saves, buys cash, has his own debit card, and manages money well. If we had started with the money management as a teen, I feel it would have been lost amid all the other responsibilities he needs to learn. 

 

Right now he's in a dilemma of trying to fix an expensive headset. He doesn't want to spend all his money on it, so he's trying every fix possible. Aside from holding tape, I'm staying out of it. He has a lot of freedom of choice. Part of it is intentional training, part of it is because I don't have the sanity left (or desire) to micromanage his life. Hopefully, by the time he applies to college it will simply be a continuation of where is he maturity wise. 

[kiana]

Having seen firsthand the good that the military, service programs like City Year, and missionary work have done in helping immature teens I know grow up and become responsible adults, I'm actually somewhat sympathetic to the idea of mandatory service like a lot of countries have after high school. Maybe our society could pay for 2 years of college or trade school after the completion of 2 years of service.

 

While I don't really like the idea of mandatory, I think the idea of 2 years of service (not necessary military) gives 2 years of tuition at any public school or university is a really great idea. It's a huge carrot but they don't HAVE to do it.

[creekland]

Other things we did was to give her as much freedom of movement as we could safely allow, and to put her in charge of organizing her activities. When she was 12 years old, we let her use public transit across a city with half a million population in Germany - as all kids her age were expected to do. We did not feel the need to supervise her on a university campus as a young teen. She would get dropped off and picked up, she arranged to have lunch and study sessions with class mates. Now, as a 16 year old, we have just let her travel by car out of state for three days to visit a friend. (And  yes, that was difficult for me)

 

Some people will consider us crazy for what we allow our teens. We see it as a preparation for a young, almost adult, woman who, in half a year, will move across the country away to college and be on her own. To us, developing independence is a main objective of the later high school years.

 

 

My kids have been free range for as long as I can remember - mainly because I was the independent sort myself from a young age (wandering the woods behind our house by age 3 - it was a mile across to the next road and I knew the deer paths to get there... I also know I was 3 because my sister was 4 and not yet in school).

 

We've chosen to live rural so we can bring our boys up similarly.  They've had a wide range.  We've traveled with them a bit - and they've traveled on their own occasionally since age 13ish.  My youngest went on the Paris trip with his French class and was utterly surprised at how many couldn't use public transit.  He helped them and was soon unofficially promoted as the leader and "go to" person for anything.  Actually, it wasn't all unofficial as the French teacher definitely encouraged it and "used" him to help with the others too.

 

My kids also started working here on our farm as soon as they were able.  There are always chores to be done.  They've helped hubby with his engineering fieldwork too.

 

I'm not at all surprised that mine are independent by age 18, ready for college, and have had no problems avoiding the "other" college stuff (drinking, etc) while taking advantage of opportunities they do have.

 

As Americans (general) we coddle our kids WAY too much.  Most of the "kid" problems are made possible due to boredom IMO.  Most kids WANT to do meaningful things.  Well... let them!

[Scarlett]

I do realize the path to independence begins long before Hs. My son is very content to do the least he can get by with. Right now he is sitting in the floor playing with his Legos. He would never get up and shower, make his bed, start school on his own. How do you get a kid to DO stuff without being told? That is probably another thread.

 

I was independent. I started supper before my mom got home, cleaned the house without being told....I got through Hs without much help from my mom.....later she told me she thought I was doing the best I could....um no I wasn't, I never studied and I hated school with a passion. So I thought more hands on with my son would help....homeschool etc....but who knows if it will make a difference in the end.

[Scarlett]

Really? What is there to be ready for? What must one do to "be ready"? If you are mostly among those of that age, seems like an ideal place to be. It's like high school except your parents hopefully nag you less.

I think I am talking about the focus. And knowing what field they want to work in. But maybe I am not giving kids enough credit.....maybe I've just known a bunch of slackers.

[Scarlett]

You made it sound like you can't imagine your son being ready at 18, but that he is very smart and good at math. Why have you already written him off? You don't think other boys his age act similarly?

Oh no, I absolutely haven't written him him off! I think he has great potential. But kids are different.....he has no initiative.....my step son who is a year younger is probably not as smart but he just jumps in to help people.

[Indian summer]

I have a hard time deciding just what to teach my kids about this very topic. I guess it will depend on what their individual goals are when the time comes (they're still young).

 

I feel like one almost needs a degree these days to be taken seriously and not end up in a low skilled/low paying job. But then I see those exceptions. My dh got a two year trade certificate and today, we are successful business owners within his trade. But, he has hired, in recent years, high school grads and has apprenticed them within that trade, so they have the same opportunity without the certificate. I like the idea of apprenticeships - it gets one working straight away without dropping big bucks for college.

 

And I like the idea of entrepreneurship. There are cheaper alternatives to a business degree where one can learn just as much and gain hands on experience. Working for a small business is one way and thus being paid for your education. And the are night courses offered by local entrepreneurs teaching everything from marketing to accounting etc.

 

And I've also considered having the kids and I open a second business when they are in their teen years to teach them how it's done and maybe give them a start, if they can agree on a type of venture.

 

There is a part of me that resents the way our society almost demands university degrees and certification where they weren't necessary in the past. It really is ridiculous in many cases. I am tempted to protest this by steering the kids away from university unless, of course they choose something that obviously should require higher ed, like medicine or something similar.

 

The biggest reason for my annoyance at the system is that university is less and less affordable all the time and while I can afford to send my kids there, I feel it's a social justice issue that irks me. All the debt many young adults and coup,ds are starting out with these days is such a huge burden and I'm thankful that dh and I never had to go through that. Dh and I paid for our own college/university as we went with part time jobs, you almost can't do that today.

[SKL]

What jobs are there for people without a degree?  The same ones that are out there for college students.  Factory work, retail work, food service, nurse's aide, outdoor work, child care, etc.  I did most of these before I completed my education.  The pay varies; the goal at that point isn't to be rich or single-handedly support a large family.

 

I have a brother without a college degree who has always worked in computers - since he was in high school 30+ years ago.  He supports his family and has a kid ready to go to college next year.

 

Another brother got his bachelors in his 30s-40s, while bringing up his daughter and some of his step-grandkids.  Before that, he worked in geriatric patient care, and then had a job in manufacturing where he showed the bosses he could do engineering.  He had a house, acreage, a horse, and an expensive hobby (music) all before he had a college degree.

 

A third brother wasted a lot of time in college before he found his true calling as a hospice nurse.  I'm sure that if he had it to do over, he would not have bothered with the first several years of his education.

 

My sister had a job in accounting and was the acting controller of a manufacturing company at age 18 (in her first year of college).

[FaithManor]

Creekland, I can relate. We've tried to raise kids who are capable of taking care of themselves without molly coddling as well as gaining by experience enough confidence to try something new without angst while keeping enough hold that they are relatively safe in the grand scheme of things. I am amazed at the number of parents who think we are nuts. We live in a nearly zero crime neighborhood. The kids, three teen boys, roam the state land with 30 mile walkie talkies, water, snacks, and a small first aid kit and to listen to the parents at church talk, we are, in their estimation, Nuts!

 

The current list of things we are considered permissive and liberal for allowing:

 

Allowing dd to spend two months on a reservation with my 23year old, colege graduate, very mature sister who was teaching in a mission school.

 

Allowing her to come home on Amtrak with same sister. Apparently, these adults have watched too many Mission Impossible movies and believe it's a normal occurence be tossed off the train by murderers or something.

 

Space Camp which just cracks me up because if ever an organization provided a lot of supervision it's NASA! The security is amazing and frankly, I do not know how they think these kids are going to sneak alcohol or drugs onto campus! Cameras everywhere, adults everywhere, no corner unwatched...I'm pretty certain the bathrooms are monitored! So this one just makes my brain twitch.

 

Working as a paramedic before her 20th birthday.

 

4H camp, capitol experience with numerous, properly vetted 4H leaders, Washington D.C. with the rocket team....seriously, with the security there, I am not worried about losing a 16 year old boy inside the Russell Senate Building. He'll find usnor we'll find him or he'll stick his head into an office and a staffer will send security find us, or.....We had to take his cell phone away from him because mommy called every 30 to 60 minutes all day long!

 

Letting them bike around the state park without an adult.

 

Using public transportation in D.C., Chicago, and Manhatten.

 

Taking our son to Iceland.

 

Letting the nearly 17 year old boy to house sit homes in safe neighborhoods. Allowing the 15 and 13 year old boys to farm sit for a friend who only lives 3 miles from my house. Letting same 15 year old stay here with the dog while his brothers went fishing with grandpa for three days and we helped move DD to New Jersey...he had emergency contact numbers, neighbors willing to help if he had an issue, and has always been uber mature.

 

And my personal favorite...being criticized THOUGH IT HAS NOT EVEN BEEN DECIDED YET for considering allowing our middle boy to take a National Geographic work trip.

[FaithManor]

I just do not understand the American propensity to treat them like 5 year olds until they are 18 and then suddenly expect some msgical switch to flip and bam...they are mature, focused, self- sufficient individuals!

[SKL]

Yes, but do you know a lot of young people NOW who are pulling this off?  I too know adults (mostly older at this point) who have managed without degrees.  I'm just wondering if moving forward people would have the same results. 

 

 

I don't know a lot of people in their 20s right now.  But yeah, actually, in my business we have a young woman of 20 who has a pretty important job.  We have others younger than me who have jobs that sustain their lifestyle.  I also know college graduates who are frequently or chronically unemployed.

 

I think there is still an opportunity to take a humble job in a company and prove oneself without a college degree.  Or to start one's own business without a college degree.

 

[mamaraby]

There are jobs for people who are willing to work. They're blue collar and sometimes involve moving or being willing to work long hard hours or risk your health. They're work, and I'm not sure we're a culture of work anymore, with 60% of those able to work not working and people quibbling over how many years someone should be allowed to live on unemployment.

I'm sorry, but this entire section screams "citation needed" to me. If you're going to make outlandish claims like this then you're going to have to back it up. Otherwise, I'm just going to assume it's your own privilege speaking.

[Scarlett]

I just do not understand the American propensity to treat them like 5 year olds until they are 18 and then suddenly expect some msgical switch to flip and bam...they are mature, focused, self- sufficient individuals!

 

 

I think a lot of it is the fear of the authorities getting involved in your/our business.  I didn't think anything on your list was particularly outlandish for responsible teens of that age, but if something had gone wrong CPS could be knocking on your door....maybe I watch too much tv!  LOL

 

That was hilarious about the concerns of your dd on the train.  :)

[kiana]

Well,

 

One of my relations got a job a few years ago as a delivery driver. He has a college degree although most of the people he works with do not. The job is hard and physical. The hours are random and he will frequently get told 'Oh, we need you tomorrow, so you need to come in' or 'Oh, you need to work until 11pm today and come back at 6am.' In other words, the hours are completely random and it would be pretty much impossible for anyone to do school at the same time unless it was completely flex-paced and online. It does pay $13/hour which is about the only saving point.

 

He is location bound and cannot move at the moment due to family commitments. He has been looking, for some time (i.e. well over 2 years) for a job with similar pay but with a fixed schedule, so that he would have some time on the side to get his small business going (he has a good idea but needs health care while he gets it up and running), but the only jobs he has found with a fixed schedule are under ten dollars an hour.

 

While there definitely is work available in the area, it is all either skilled labor (i.e. requiring certifications), very low wage, or part-time.

[creekland]

I think a lot of it is the fear of the authorities getting involved in your/our business.  I didn't think anything on your list was particularly outlandish for responsible teens of that age, but if something had gone wrong CPS could be knocking on your door....maybe I watch too much tv!  LOL

 

That was hilarious about the concerns of your dd on the train.  :)

 

We've found the more rural you live, the better chances you have with free ranging without the authorities caring much.  The few times we've had any involvement with authorities (never "bad" involvement) here they've all told us, "keep doing what you're doing," and "I wish more people would teach kids responsibility."

 

Ours roamed our property (73 acres when they were young), fished, hiked, camped (without parents once they knew how), had BB guns and archery stuff, watched the place when we weren't home (once for three days - the "worst" thing is they didn't shower - in summer :glare: ), checked and repaired fence, returned ponies to their pastures when they escaped, cleaned chickens, and more I'm sure I'm not thinking of right now.

 

They started going to overnight camps (alone, but in organized groups) at age 8.  They started overseas trips (with friends and an organized group) around age 13.  They were 14, 12, and 10 when they got scuba certified.

 

They can handle themselves in campgrounds or large cities.  They are content in Motel 6s or resorts.  They can go to McDonald's or top restaurants.  They know how to navigate airports (even unfamiliar ones) or any sort of public transport (when youngest helped in Paris, it was his first time in France) or even just calling a cab.

 

When kids are raised with a "can do" attitude, they tend to know they can do things - perhaps not always (there can always be a genetic component), but definitely a majority of the time.

 

The college experience (again, not drinking, drugs, etc) has been enjoyable for my older two.  Youngest is eager to get his chance this fall.

[Scarlett]

Here is an example of a manufacturing job that a non college graduate could get.  $12 an hour.  Lets be generous and assume the company pays 100% for the benefits (which I doubt, but let's be totally optimistic).  This is a job that pays under $25K per year if the government doesn't take a single dime of taxes (which they will so it will be less).  The average income of a person living in Ballston Spa is about 42K in 2011 (which I actually find hard to believe because it's a fairly swanky area compared to where I live).  The average house price is 187K (edit, that is actually the median value, not price).  Nobody on that salary could buy a house like that.  Ballston Spa is also basically in the middle of freaking nowhere and I do not know of any public transportation that goes there.  I think that is a fairly low paying job for someone who needs to live on it.  I wouldn't call someone at a job like this as "making it". 

 

Production Assistant (Ballston Spa)

 

Our client, a long standing specialty material manufacturer and distributor, is currently seeking candidates for an assembly/forklift operator position on their first shift (8:00 am - 5:00 pm.) This is a temp to hire opportunity with one of the more stable and reputable employers in the area.

 

Requirements:

- Forklift experience is a must

- 6 months prior experience in a production or assembly setting is preferred

- Ability to measure material, weigh material to exact tolerances is required

- Ability to perform addition, subtraction, division, multiplication problems with a high level of accuracy

- Prior experience packaging orders in a production environment is preferred

- Ability to understand and communicate verbal and written English is required

- Ability to stand long periods and lift up to 50 lbs throughout the course of a full shift.

 

Pay rate will begin at $12.00 an hour. Pension, health benefits, etc... for those who go permanent with this company.

 

 

My nephew just went to work in CO near Denver for $11 an hour...his half of rent is $465.  I hope it will be a good wake up call.  This is the same kid who had a full ride scholarship and didn't last one semester. 

[Jane in NC]

I don't know a lot of people in their 20s right now.  But yeah, actually, in my business we have a young woman of 20 who has a pretty important job.  We have others younger than me who have jobs that sustain their lifestyle.  I also know college graduates who are frequently or chronically unemployed.

 

I think there is still an opportunity to take a humble job in a company and prove oneself without a college degree.  Or to start one's own business without a college degree.

 

 

Considering that I have a 21 year old son and that I have been a volunteer with youth in my community for almost two decades, I can say that I know a lot of young people in the teens and twenties.   I cannot tell you their precise incomes because I do not ask those questions.  But I know what some parents have told me and can make some reasonable estimates in other cases.

 

One of the non-college grads I know is a front-end assistant at the local grocery store.  I looked up her hourly because I figured it was more than a cashier was making ($7-$10 per hour).  Glassdoor reports $8-$12 per hour for the position.  Her husband is in the military or Coast Guard.  I don't know what level he is but even the military is closing the doors to many without specific skill sets or aptitudes.

 

I know a twenty-something who makes pizzas at Dominoes.  $9-10 per hour?

 

I took a look at the local Craigs List.  There are part time bookkeeping jobs that pay $10-12 and require what looks like basic experience to me (Quickbooks). Daycare centers are requiring two year degrees or daycare credentials and a driver's license that allows a person to operate a fourteen passenger van.  A copier repair technician earns $14 per hour plus a commission on stuff they sell.  (I suspect credentials for the job can be gotten without a degree.)  Security guards start at $8.  Hey those wacko sign spinners can make up to $15 per hour!  (Imagine doing that 40 hours a week!)

 

As I said earlier, there are computer related jobs for those without degrees; but, in order to work at the Fortune 500 company where my husband works a degree is necessary.  They are not even going to interview you without a relevant degree.  One of the clever guys who did a college student internship at my husband's company (by the way, they pay $20 per hour to engineering interns) fixed laptops on the side.  He was self taught.  Good part time gig.

 

Starting a business is an avenue for a smart young person however if the business requires capital, then let's hope Mommy and Daddy can help.  I know of no bank that loans money to an eighteen year old with an entrepreneurial vision. Mowing lawns is a great job for a teen or a college student with minimal capital investment.  It is seasonal work though so it might be hard to pay rent on the income.  Suppose a kid wanted to become an arborist.  I am not even sure how he would go about getting bonded without some sort of educational experience and safety training.

 

A traditional industry where I live is seafood.  Shrimp, clam and oyster are nouns and verbs here.  Most boats are family operations.  I suppose that a family friend might get an occasional job but fishing families can hardly make it these days with cheap Asian imported seafood. 

 

There was a recent thread on newspaper delivery people.  A college student delivers my morning paper. When I read how little these folks net, I increased my Christmas gift to him.

 

So we will all agree that there are jobs for the willing.  I am just not convinced that many of these jobs will lead to a level where a family can be supported--even with two parents working.

 

ETA: I know several kids who want to work in agriculture.  They are from farm families--there are no delusions on how hard this work is.  These kids are my heroes.  No matter how much money one has or land one owns, everybody has to  eat.

[MBM]

When trying to understand what teens and young adults are experiencing, adults could be enlightened if they would question their own assumptions. Much has been learned in the past decade or so and it explains what is really going on and, more importantly, what can be done to help teens and young adults.

 

If you want to learn more, neuropsychiatrist Dan Siegel's book Brainstorm: The Power and Purpose of the Teenage Brain explains what is happening neurologically. In a nutshell, teens are going through a lot of changes in their brains. Ideally, the goal is to get their brains to integrate properly and fully during this rebuilding phase.

 

I also think parents of teens (and parents themselves) could be helped by reading Dan Goleman's book Focus: The Hidden Driver of Success.

[Erin]

Yes, but do you know a lot of young people NOW who are pulling this off?  I too know adults (mostly older at this point) who have managed without degrees.  I'm just wondering if moving forward people would have the same results. 

 

 

Yes 

As stated in my last post, I know young people who are pulling in $100K+, today, working in the oil field with NO COLLEGE.

[Erin]

.

[Erin]

Yep, and they are also among the most hazardous jobs in the world. 

 

 

Nope. 

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacquelynsmith/2013/08/22/americas-10-deadliest-jobs-2/

 

The 10 Deadliest Jobs:

1. Logging workers

2. Fishers and related fishing workers

3. Aircraft pilot and flight engineers

4. Roofers

5. Structural iron and steel workers

6. Refuse and recyclable material collectors

7. Electrical power-line installers and repairers

8. Drivers/sales workers and truck drivers

9. Farmers, ranchers, and other agricultural managers

10. Construction laborers

 

Interestingly, most of the above with a few exceptions, also pay fairly low...

Being a garbage man or cowboy is more dangerous than a rough neck.

 

[creekland]

These are skills specific to your area and way of life.  We have skills specific to our area and way of life.  It's just different.  I don't think it's fair to say parents coddle because they don't let their kids go wondering busy city streets alone.  KWIM?  Here it's scary just to cross streets because there are so many idiots who run the lights, etc.  You get to know which areas are the worst and how to deal with it.  You don't assume that because you have the right away someone won't run you over.  It's a harder thing for little kids because for one thing they are even harder to see. 

 

 

Things should be age appropriate (to some extent) of course.  But my guys were able to handle city streets without parents by the time they were teenagers - well before college age.

 

In the country one NEVER assumes they have the right of way as a pedestrian or cyclist.  ;)

 

Free ranging doesn't actually mean we just open the door and tell the kid to go outside as soon as they can walk.  Kids are taught what to do, supervised for a time or two, then allowed to do it.

 

By "coddling" I refer to America as a whole.  Why can't a kid "work" before age 14?  These rules don't apply within a family, so I started work (for pay) when I was 8 helping my dad with his beekeeping stuff (he had 500 hives).  My kids started quite young helping hubby.  Then, of course, there were all the farm chores (feeding and watching critters mainly). 

 

I don't feel we should open up sweatshops and have young kids working 6 or 7 days per week for long hours, but I see no reason the average 8 or 10 year old can't be hired for a few hours on a regular basis to do a job they are able to do.

 

Here, one can't legally work at all (for pay outside the family) until they are 14, then jobs are really, really limited so almost no one will hire 14 year olds unless they have a good contact.  At 16 more opens up, but again, many jobs are still off limits to "minors" so many can't do much until they are 18.  Meanwhile, many 12 - 18 year olds find themselves bored and need something to do.  What do they do? Many times it's video games for hours, drinking, general mischief... And this is supposed to be better?  We're ruining their childhood to expect otherwise?

 

Hardly.

 

(A few enterprising kids do open their own businesses, but again, it's not the majority and often those businesses - such as lawn care - are seasonal.)

 

FWIW, the students who tend to do the best at the high school where I work are those who stay active - either working for their parents, with a job outside the house (since I'm in high school, many do get jobs, but not until 16), or with band/orchestra or certain clubs/sports.  It's rarely the video game expert.  Some enjoy the clubs/sports/music and I'm all for that.  These start young and keep going.  Some would prefer working.  Why can't they also start younger?

 

But yes, it is just what I see and what I've experienced.  YMMV

 

[creekland]

 

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacquelynsmith/2013/08/22/americas-10-deadliest-jobs-2/

 

The 10 Deadliest Jobs:

1. Logging workers

2. Fishers and related fishing workers

3. Aircraft pilot and flight engineers

4. Roofers

5. Structural iron and steel workers

6. Refuse and recyclable material collectors

7. Electrical power-line installers and repairers

8. Drivers/sales workers and truck drivers

9. Farmers, ranchers, and other agricultural managers

10. Construction laborers

 

Interestingly, most of the above with a few exceptions, also pay fairly low...

 

And few need a college degree...

 

[Erin]

The North Dakota, Colorado, Pennsylvania, Alaska, etc. fields aren't "off shore."   ;)

 

 

 

And few need a college degree...

 

True.  
But I'm not entirely sure I'm understanding your point.
 

[Jane in NC]

Yes 

As stated in my last post, I know young people who are pulling in $100K+, today, working in the oil field with NO COLLEGE.

 

There have been a number of news stories on the North Dakota fracking economy.  (I don't know where you live, Erin.)  Yes, young people are making $100K+ on the oil fields and apparently strippers are doing really well too.

 

With not enough workers, McDonalds is paying $15+ per hour.  One little problem though.  Rents in some ND towns have quadrupled.  So a $400 apartment is now a $1600 apartment--McDonald's hourly still won't cut it.

 

I do think though that North Dakota offers great promise for young people beyond the oil fields. The boom is bringing health care and education jobs too.

 

That may be the solution for some young people although I will issue a caution.  How long will the ND boom last?  When I was an undergrad, Oklahoma had an oil boom.  One of my friends moved there with her husband.  When the industry crashed, it crashed hard.  Houses were impossible to sell.  But it did provide an excellent economic opportunity for my friends when they were starting out.

[regentrude]

Not sure what sort of person can do that sort of work or get that sort of job.  I don't see it as something that just anyone can walk off the street and get hired.  I assume it's very hard work for someone with the physical endurance to do it.

 

But I admit I know very little about oil anything.

 

I know very little about oil fields, too, but what little I do makes me think most parents would not want to send their daughters to an oil field so they can mature for college :-)

[Jane in NC]

Maybe I should have a spin off thread..

 

Erin or others who live in oil boom zones:  How do young people find jobs on the oil fields?  Can a kid just show up, find an apartment or rent a room and submit applications?  Do you have to be connected to the industry in some way?  Do you need certifications or safety classes?  Truck drivers obviously undergo a certification, but what about everyone else?

 

Parents who are seeking non-college track occupations for their kids might be interested in hearing more about this.

[Erin]

I know very little about oil fields, too, but what little I do makes me think most parents would not want to send their daughters to an oil field so they can mature for college :-)

I didn't suggest anything of the sort. 

 

The question was posed asking what types of jobs are available to those without college.  The (mistaken) assumption being that one will be stuck in something low-paying.  I was merely correcting that confused idea.  

 

Um yeah, doing a quick search for oil jobs those that pay the best seem not to be the entry level laboring positions.  Maybe one can work their way up, but no the starting positions are paying what other starting factory jobs pay (12ish dollars an hour). 

 

Um no.

You're looking for "rough neck."  That's a starting position and if it pays as low as $12hr, that's an intro/probationary wage.  It rises quickly.  

 

Rents in some ND towns have quadrupled.  So a $400 apartment is now a $1600 apartment--McDonald's hourly still won't cut it.

 

I do think though that North Dakota offers great promise for young people beyond the oil fields. The boom is bringing health care and education jobs too.

 

That may be the solution for some young people although I will issue a caution.  How long will the ND boom last?  When I was an undergrad, Oklahoma had an oil boom.  One of my friends moved there with her husband.  When the industry crashed, it crashed hard.  Houses were impossible to sell.  But it did provide an excellent economic opportunity for my friends when they were starting out.

Rent is indeed high, though it's starting to come back down as apartment complexes get finished.   And to be sure, I wouldn't buy permanent housing up there unless I paid WAAAY below current market price.  Even if it doesn't crash like it did in the mid-80s, the field will cool.  

[regentrude]

OK, so jobs in the oil industry are probably a viable option for some young people. But seeing that the starting point of this spin-off was to find work for young people to bridge the time until they are mature enough to go to college, it raises the question for me:

why would moving to ND and working in an oil field require less maturity than going to college???
 

[regentrude]

I didn't suggest anything of the sort. The question was posed asking what types of jobs are available to those without college.  The (mistaken) assumption being that one will be stuck in something low-paying.  I was merely correcting that confused idea.

 

No, but 50% of the young people happen to be female. What options do women have that would be equally lucrative?

 

[Erin]

Erin or others who live in oil boom zones:  How do young people find jobs on the oil fields?  Can a kid just show up, find an apartment or rent a room and submit applications?  Do you have to be connected to the industry in some way?  Do you need certifications or safety classes?  Truck drivers obviously undergo a certification, but what about everyone else?

North Dakota still has enough of a boom that showing up ready to work is probably the best approach.  

They usually have to make-do in a temporary job like stocking shelves at WalMart ($17 hr the last I heard), but once they start hitting job fairs and networking, they're usually hired within a couple of months.  

Because rent IS so high, most oil and frack companies either offer a housing allowance or have company housing of some sort available.  Service companies are more of a crap-shoot, but many of them offer something as well.  

 

Other fields like Colorado and Texas work similarly, but I can't make a guess at time frame.  I DO know that it's one of the businesses where knowing someone is your best shot.  That's why networking is so important.  

 

To women, they're definitely  less common (just like other male-dominated industries like logging or ag.), but they're still there.  Trap's company of about two dozen drivers has three women...   The procedure is the same.  Though, completely anecdotally, it seems like women are hired more quickly and without a connection, than men are.  The novelty of having a woman on the crew?  The conscientiousness of women?  I don't know.  Just seems that way...

[Erin]

OK, so jobs in the oil industry are probably a viable option for some young people. But seeing that the starting point of this spin-off was to find work for young people to bridge the time until they are mature enough to go to college, it raises the question for me:

why would moving to ND and working in an oil field require less maturity than going to college???

 

:confused:

 

I'm not sure why you're addressing me.  I didn't say it was.

 

My point was very simple:  There are options that will pay quite well, that don't require a degree.  There's a reason I included a quote in my initial post...  

[SKL]

People need to look at college as an investment, and like all investments, risk is involved.  Those who are willing to take more risk will, on average, end up wealthier.  Those who are too risk-averse to put any money or time into higher education will end up less wealthy.

 

It's OK.  Everyone doesn't have to own a big house.  People can live in humble dwellings, share, pursue affordable leisure activities, and so on as they keep looking for their niche.  People can do it until they die of old age, even.  It's not a tragedy IMO.

[TracyP]

North Dakota still has enough of a boom that showing up ready to work is probably the best approach.  

They usually have to make-do in a temporary job like stocking shelves at WalMart ($17 hr the last I heard), but once they start hitting job fairs and networking, they're usually hired within a couple of months.  

 

 

But where do they live in the meantime? If they can find a rental, which is an if in a place like Williston, how do they afford the deposit on a rental? how do they pay rent while they search for a more lucrative job?

 

I think for families who already live out there, there are options for young people. For those thinking about moving there to find work, I'm not so sure. There are a lot of jobs that pay decent (road and home construction for example), but housing is a HUGE issue.

 

And while it might not make the top ten, there is no denying that working in the oil field is a dangerous line of work.

http://www.npr.org/2013/12/27/250807226/on-the-job-deaths-spiking-as-oil-drilling-quickly-expands

[Jane in NC]

OK, so jobs in the oil industry are probably a viable option for some young people. But seeing that the starting point of this spin-off was to find work for young people to bridge the time until they are mature enough to go to college, it raises the question for me:

why would moving to ND and working in an oil field require less maturity than going to college???

 

 

Well it seems that there are parents on this board who are seeking alternatives to college for the kids.  Given that many of us feel our communities offer limited opportunities for high school grads, I think it is valuable to discuss the options. 

 

I too am curious to learn if parents who feel that their teens are not ready for college are ready to launch them in other ways.  It is sort of the American thing to go where the jobs are--now the oil fields, once upon a time the gold mines or the car factories.  Or forty acres and a mule..

 

I am curious if this is what parents have in mind if they don't see college (4 year, 2 year or certification) as an option for their kids.

[Erin]

Of course it is.  But it's not among the "most hazardous jobs in the world," which was the point I was debating.  Traveling salesman is more dangerous.

 

To housing, yeah, you have to come up with something temporary, just like moving to any new place.  I really wouldn't suggest pulling up  stakes and heading somewhere with just a quarter in your pocket, ya know?

[Scarlett]

OK, so jobs in the oil industry are probably a viable option for some young people. But seeing that the starting point of this spin-off was to find work for young people to bridge the time until they are mature enough to go to college, it raises the question for me:

why would moving to ND and working in an oil field require less maturity than going to college???

 

 

 

It is just an option that doesn't cost money.  And it would definitely make a kid wake up and face reality about life.  Maybe he would like it and make a life there....or maybe he would come home and go to college and get serious about it.

[Scarlett]

Well it seems that there are parents on this board who are seeking alternatives to college for the kids.  Given that many of us feel our communities offer limited opportunities for high school grads, I think it is valuable to discuss the options. 

 

I too am curious to learn if parents who feel that their teens are not ready for college are ready to launch them in other ways.  It is sort of the American thing to go where the jobs are--now the oil fields, once upon a time the gold mines or the car factories.  Or forty acres and a mule..

 

I am curious if this is what parents have in mind if they don't see college (4 year, 2 year or certification) as an option for their kids.

 

 

I think my ds will be ready for some sort of schooling at 18.  He will have to do something of course....we won't support him just laying around the house playing video games.  We will have some suggestions but ultimately he will have to decide what he wants to do. 

[Caroline]

I suppose you could always show up in Dutch Harbor and try to get a job on a crab boat, maybe the Northwestern or the Cornelia Marie. I hear that pays pretty well, although I think you need a connection.

 

Around here, kids who don't go to college work at the Food Depot, the Family Dollar, the taco truck, various Mexican restaurants, Little Cesar's, flip the arrow around on the street corner, and currently, dressing up like the Statue of Liberty and standing on the street corner. Real Estate offices hire office assistants that don't necessarily have degrees, but a degree is preferred. I have had a number of grads go into the military. (I teach high school seniors.)

[Jane in NC]

I suppose you could always show up in Dutch Harbor and try to get a job on a crab boat, maybe the Northwestern or the Cornelia Marie. I hear that pays pretty well, although I think you need a connection.

 

Around here, kids who don't go to college work at the Food Depot, the Family Dollar, the taco truck, various Mexican restaurants, Little Cesar's, flip the arrow around on the street corner, and currently, dressing up like the Statue of Liberty and standing on the street corner. Real Estate offices hire office assistants that don't necessarily have degrees, but a degree is preferred. I have had a number of grads go into the military. (I teach high school seniors.)

 

While waiting for my son's delayed plane within the past year or two, I struck up a conversation with a Navy recruiter (waiting for his girlfriend on the same flight) who told me that it is getting harder and harder for high school grads to join the Navy.  The jobs are getting so technical that they want people with specific skill sets.  He often has to deal with frustrated parents and grandparents who had served in the Navy who want to see their child/grandchild in that branch of the service.

 

I know of one young man locally who has joined the Air Force, another who became a Marine.  It surprises me that I don't know more.

[MBM]

Some of my family members have worked in the oil industry in Barrow, Alaska, and North Dakota/Montana where the Bakken Shale is located. If you know someone who wants a job there, look up Bakken Shale jobs. Facebook has some info, too. For the right person, it can be a good opportunity.

 

Two of my brothers worked in the oil industry and were able to retire in their 40s. A few years ago, one of them started a business in ND with a few friends that works directly with the oil companies; however, they also knew the companies would need this business. They are now making money hand over fist. Not everyone knows the oil business that well, but even entry level jobs can eventually lead to good opportunities. My brothers all began with entry level positions.

 

Women can get jobs out there but they should investigate to find out what the job would entail and what life would be like for them. One of my female cousins has been working on the rigs in the Sidney (Montana) area for decades. She's tough as nails. Several of her brothers and her husband work on them, too.

 

The oil is expected to last for a few decades, possibly longer. (There are actually three layers.) No one knows for sure how long it will last, though. At this point, production is curtailed in part because it's difficult to get it transported out easily.

[Scarlett]

Some of my family members have worked in the oil industry in Barrow, Alaska, and North Dakota/Montana where the Bakken Shale is located. If you know someone who wants a job there, look up Bakken Shale jobs. Facebook has some info, too. For the right person, it can be a good opportunity.

 

Two of my brothers worked in the oil industry and were able to retire in their 40s. A few years ago, one of them started a business in ND with a few friends that works directly with the oil companies; however, they also knew the companies would need this business. They are now making money hand over fist. Not everyone knows the oil business that well, but even entry level jobs can eventually lead to good opportunities. My brothers all began with entry level positions.

 

Women can get jobs out there but they should investigate to find out what the job would entail and what life would be like for them. One of my female cousins has been working on the rigs in the Sidney (Montana) area for decades. She's tough as nails. Several of her brothers and her husband work on them, too.

 

The oil is expected to last for a few decades, possibly longer. (There are actually three layers.) No one knows for sure how long it will last, though. At this point, production is curtailed in part because it's difficult to get it transported out easily.

 

 

Where do people apply for those jobs?

[MBM]

Where do people apply for those jobs?

 

The internet is a good place to start. Do a lot of inquiring.

[Scarlett]

The internet is a good place to start. Do a lot of inquiring.

 

 

LOL....good idea.

[creekland]

 

True.  

But I'm not entirely sure I'm understanding your point.

 

 

My point on this was that the vast majority of those "most dangerous jobs" were filled with those who didn't go to college.  Is it because they truly like those jobs or couldn't find anything else?  I suspect a combo of both, but what percentage in each end?

 

The oil job possibilities are a good one to point out IMO.

 

People need to look at college as an investment, and like all investments, risk is involved.  Those who are willing to take more risk will, on average, end up wealthier.  Those who are too risk-averse to put any money or time into higher education will end up less wealthy.

 

It's OK.  Everyone doesn't have to own a big house.  People can live in humble dwellings, share, pursue affordable leisure activities, and so on as they keep looking for their niche.  People can do it until they die of old age, even.  It's not a tragedy IMO.

 

While your last paragraph sort of sounded like a "dig," it is also true... my youngest (heading for a low paying career WITH a college degree) has no desire for high cost dwellings or other such things.  To him, living on the water (likely in a boat) is "high class."  It might be genetic... you should see (and would probably be aghast at) our house - one puny bathroom for 5 people and those vintage appliances/carpets, etc?  How in the world did we ever survive? :D   We merely opt to spend our $$ elsewhere (being travel junkies and all).  For some of us, our belongings in a backpack and a passport are pretty close to an ideal world.