Tohru Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I have a long and complicated backstory and now at a point trying to sort this out... I think Jesus fulfill the sacrificial requirments, (thanks to Rob Bell, although that is all I can agree with him on right now.) But actually going from that to accepting the trinity...hmmm. Is it possible to believe that Jesus came as the ultimate sacrifice to satisfy the sacrificial requirements of all the laws, but not actually accept that Jesus is God? ...Well, I know it's possible to believe that, but I guess what I mean, is there a "religion" that has that view? Or maybe just a guide me to where I can find a clear explanation somewhere as to Jesus=God. Everything I've read just doesn't make it clear, nor does it make sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xuzi Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (aka Mormon) believe in a Godhead, with Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost as three distinct persons working in complete unity to fulfill the Plan set forth by Heavenly Father. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I have a long and complicated backstory and now at a point trying to sort this out... I think Jesus fulfill the sacrificial requirments, (thanks to Rob Bell, although that is all I can agree with him on right now.) But actually going from that to accepting the trinity...hmmm. Is it possible to believe that Jesus came as the ultimate sacrifice to satisfy the sacrificial requirements of all the laws, but not actually accept that Jesus is God? ...Well, I know it's possible to believe that, but I guess what I mean, is there a "religion" that has that view? Or maybe just a guide me to where I can find a clear explanation somewhere as to Jesus=God. Everything I've read just doesn't make it clear, nor does it make sense. Well, you could believe that, but it wouldn't be the truth. And yes, there are groups which believe that, but they are in error. The whole of Scripture teaches that there is one God, and that He manifested Himself as Jesus. You can't pick just one verse to prove--or disprove--anything in Scripture, and God doesn't expect us to. C.S. Lewis's "Mere Christianity" is a good read. So is Josh McDowell's "Evidence That Demands a Verdict." And then there's always the obvious: The Bible. Start at the beginning and just read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Well, you could believe that, but it wouldn't be the truth. And yes, there are groups which believe that, but they are in error. :lurk5: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilma Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Jesus himself very clearly taught that he was in fact God. So if you were to want the element of him being a sacrificial atonement for sins, you'd have to also consider that you don't believe his statements about who he is... for me it would be incompatible to believe that he was a liar about his identity but that's okay and his sacrifice still makes things right between me and God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolt. Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 It's difficult to find life-changing truth in the idea that Jesus "saves" -- when you find that truth in the same writing that claims his divinity and "One-ness" in God... It would be odd to say, "The Bible is true about what Jesus did, and correct about the significance of his sacrifice -- but it's probably incorrect about who/what he was and the things it teaches about his relation to/in God." The LDS has an entirely different cosmology, involving many being who are "divine" but not "one" with God -- and those ideas do *somewhat* explain away *some* of the Bible's references to Jesus' divinity, but it requires quite a lot of jumping through hoops to re-define the unity-relationship that encompassed God, Jesus and the Spirit into a sort of cosmic partnership-project. I don't want to debate that with others who might believe it. I just didn't want to ignore your question regarding whether there are people who hold that view. There are. I don't think it holds water, but your assessment may differ. Mere Christianity is a good recommendation (and free online). I'll try to think about others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan C. Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Its a journey. Everyone won't agree and you will come up with more than one possibility WITHIN the confines of Christianity. I would give up penal substitution before "unGodding" Jesus, since some Christian faiths don't believe in penal substitution, but all believe he is the Son of God. Rob Bell has a great series now that you can access from his facebook page. I also enjoyed Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time, by Marcus Borg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I believe Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe that Jesus is God. I disagree, but you asked so there you go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TracyP Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 The Worldwide Church of God also holds this belief. WCG has many splinter groups that also hold to this. My mom used to be a member, but she started to disagree with other issues over the years. She still believes that there is only one God. She believes that Jesus is the Son of God and as such shares a special relationship with God, but that there is only one God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onceuponatime Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Jesus himself very clearly taught that he was in fact God. So if you were to want the element of him being a sacrificial atonement for sins, you'd have to also consider that you don't believe his statements about who he is... for me it would be incompatible to believe that he was a liar about his identity but that's okay and his sacrifice still makes things right between me and God. Well, somebody's going to say it, it might as well be me. Of all the possibilities to consider, there is also the possibility that Jesus was neither Lord, Liar, or Lunatic, as C.S. Lews claimed he must be, but Legend instead. There are many progressive Christians who do not believe that Jesus was divine, or that the Bible is necessarily the divinely inspired Word of God. Instead they believe Christianity is metaphorical--- an idea with power. Marcus Borg is one of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostSurprise Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 If that's the route you go in, you'll probably end up outside of Christianity. One of the main tenants is Jesus=some form or part of God. Without that tenant it erodes Jesus' authority to the point where he becomes a mildly interesting philosophy. I think one of the main proofs used is how Jesus began to take the kind of authority only God could have. He forgave sins. He raised people from the dead. He promised someone heaven. If you read Matthew very slowly you see that he takes on more and more authority. Definitely the Pharisees understood that he was over-reaching himself as a man and they were scandalized. By the time Paul wrote, he clearly thought of Jesus Christ as a pre-existent form of God. Another thought: perhaps you are debating more of a 'what is the trinity exactly?' or a 'how much did Jesus actually know?' or 'how much of him could be God while he lived on Earth?' or 'did Jesus exist before his incarnation?' Those are questions which have a much wider latitude within Christianity. Interesting perspectives fall within Christology. You may want to seek out books on that study. Tons of scholars, of every Christian tradition, who know the original languages and have a lot better understanding than I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ipsey Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Church of God in Christ Mennonite (Holdermans) believe that Jesus is fully God, but not at all man. I suppose if you want to be given "evidences" that Jesus is God, you could read some of their material and theological works because that's where it will focus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I think it might be also worth it to consider whether Jesus coming in human form was primarily to be a sacrifice for our sins. In the Orthodox church, this is not the case. While there is a degree of that, we primarily see the Incarnation and Resurrection as being for the purpose of healing our souls and delivering us from death. We see it as uniting us with the eternal God (and yes, in Trinity form). We don't believe salvation is like a courtroom where someone (Christ) comes in and rescues us from the "punishment we deserved," but rather like a hospital where we're sick and being given the medicine we need by Christ (and His Body, the Church) to heal us and bring us into communion with God. With a different thought in that vein, there might be different questions to ask and look for answers for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pawz4me Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 The beliefs of the Society of Friends (Quakers) are somewhat hard to pin down, as they don't have any creeds or statements of faith. And they believe that each person should listen to that "still small voice" to decide what is true or not. But in general I believe historically they rejected the concept of the trinity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldberry Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I believe Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe that Jesus is God. This is correct. Jesus is not God, but without his sacrifice there is no salvation possible. We also believe that the Bible supports this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mytwomonkeys Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I'm sure there are several, but I know LDS and Jehovah's Witness are two (as mentioned above) and their off-shoot branches. My dad's side of the family is Reorganized LDS for example. They don't believe in the Trinity, but they are not part of mainstream LDS either. They call themselves Community of Christ. I don't agree with them though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan in MO Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I'm sure there are several, but I know LDS and Jehovah's Witness are two (as mentioned above) and their off-shoot branches. My dad's side of the family is Reorganized LDS for example. They don't believe in the Trinity, but they are not part of mainstream LDS either. They call themselves Community of Christ. I don't agree with them though. Actually, if I'm understanding the information correctly from the RLDS website they do believe in the Trinity. Here is the quote. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) http://www.cofchrist.org/ourfaith/faith-beliefs.asp "God We believe in one living God who meets us in the testimony of Israel, is revealed in Jesus Christ, and moves through all creation as the Holy Spirit. We affirm the Trinity—God who is a community of three persons. All things that exist owe their being to God: mystery beyond understanding and love beyond imagination. This God alone is worthy of our worship." Although I am no longer RLDS (Now Community of Christ), I grew up in the church so I had to check. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mytwomonkeys Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Actually, if I'm understanding the information correctly from the RLDS website they do believe in the Trinity. Here is the quote. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) http://www.cofchrist.org/ourfaith/faith-beliefs.asp "God We believe in one living God who meets us in the testimony of Israel, is revealed in Jesus Christ, and moves through all creation as the Holy Spirit. We affirm the Trinity—God who is a community of three persons. All things that exist owe their being to God: mystery beyond understanding and love beyond imagination. This God alone is worthy of our worship." Although I am no longer RLDS (Now Community of Christ), I grew up in the church so I had to check. That's great to know! My understanding had been that did not adhere to the Trinity, Jesus being God incarnate. I would ask my aunt, but I would offend her - but the official website should know :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris in VA Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Actually, if I'm understanding the information correctly from the RLDS website they do believe in the Trinity. Here is the quote. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) http://www.cofchrist.org/ourfaith/faith-beliefs.asp "God We believe in one living God who meets us in the testimony of Israel, is revealed in Jesus Christ, and moves through all creation as the Holy Spirit. We affirm the Trinity—God who is a community of three persons. All things that exist owe their being to God: mystery beyond understanding and love beyond imagination. This God alone is worthy of our worship." Although I am no longer RLDS (Now Community of Christ), I grew up in the church so I had to check. God as community is not the same as the historical Trinity. Very fine point, but important to define terms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris in VA Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I have a long and complicated backstory and now at a point trying to sort this out... I think Jesus fulfill the sacrificial requirments, (thanks to Rob Bell, although that is all I can agree with him on right now.) But actually going from that to accepting the trinity...hmmm. Is it possible to believe that Jesus came as the ultimate sacrifice to satisfy the sacrificial requirements of all the laws, but not actually accept that Jesus is God? ...Well, I know it's possible to believe that, but I guess what I mean, is there a "religion" that has that view? Or maybe just a guide me to where I can find a clear explanation somewhere as to Jesus=God. Everything I've read just doesn't make it clear, nor does it make sense. To this I would ask two questions-- What do you mean by "Jesus came" and what would make him the Ultimate sacrifice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeachyDoodle Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I have a long and complicated backstory and now at a point trying to sort this out... I think Jesus fulfill the sacrificial requirments, (thanks to Rob Bell, although that is all I can agree with him on right now.) But actually going from that to accepting the trinity...hmmm. Is it possible to believe that Jesus came as the ultimate sacrifice to satisfy the sacrificial requirements of all the laws, but not actually accept that Jesus is God? ...Well, I know it's possible to believe that, but I guess what I mean, is there a "religion" that has that view? Or maybe just a guide me to where I can find a clear explanation somewhere as to Jesus=God. Everything I've read just doesn't make it clear, nor does it make sense. Part of the problem is that, truthfully, the concept of the Trinity doesn't make "sense." :001_huh: I believe it because I believe there is more than enough evidence for the veracity of scripture, but it doesn't make good, logical sense. I'm not sure that you're really looking for evidence from scripture (as opposed to a theological explanation), but Col. 2:9 comes to mind: "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form..." I would second McDowell's "Evidence That Demands a Verdict" as a potential source for information. Or Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry: www.carm.org. Also, you might try searching for explanations of the hypostatic union (the nature of Jesus as both fully God and fully human). It's a hefty theological concept, but you might get something more detailed that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Learning fun Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 There were many early Christians who did not believe in the concept of the Trinity. Until the council of Nice when Constantine decided to try to unify Christianity's beliefs it was not a "given" that if you were Christian you believed in the Trinity. After the council the sects who persisted in not believing "Nontrinatarians" were eventually killed off as heretics and the concept of the Trinity became standard. I only post this to point out that its not a new idea to be Christian and not believe in the Trinity. I think what's most important is a person's relationship with Jesus and their willingness to share His love with others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heidi Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2007/10/the-only-true-god-and-jesus-christ-whom-he-hath-sent?lang=eng See if this explanation makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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