Please help me out - does the letter 'a' ever sound

[Tohru]

Have you ever heard the letter 'a' make the short 'e' sound?  Even if it is in a different language.

 

In searching, only these 3 sounds come up (standing by itself), but I'm sure I've heard it pronounced like the short e somewhere before.

 

1. short, 'cat'

2. long, 'ace' (this has the silent e rule, but I couldn't think of another example)

3. ah, 'father'

 

Is there a 4. somewhere prounced short e, like jet?

 

 

 

[Alenee]

In WA, I've heard the accent on the 'a' morphed a bit to sound like a short 'e'.  Words like 'magazine' and 'bag'.  It sort of sounds like a mix of a long 'a' and a short 'e'.  When I moved here, I thought it was hilarious.  :-)

[Laurie4b]

In words like distance, the a sounds like a short e or maybe short i. I think technically that's a schwa sound.

[Dandelion]

The pronunciation of 'a' with an umlaut ('ä') in German sometimes sounds like a short e.

[KathyBC]

It can have a "schwa" sound, as in fortunate.

[Laurie4b]

Also to add to your list, there is the sound a makes in words like above, about, aligned, etc. Sounds like a short u where I am from.

[Ellie]

Have you ever heard the letter 'a' make the short 'e' sound?  Even if it is in a different language.

 

In searching, only these 3 sounds come up (standing by itself), but I'm sure I've heard it pronounced like the short e somewhere before.

 

1. short, 'cat'

2. long, 'ace' (this has the silent e rule, but I couldn't think of another example)

3. ah, 'father'

 

Is there a 4. somewhere prounced short e, like jet?

 

In English, no, although some of our words, such as "distance," are exceptions. IOW, I would *not* teach a fourth sound, but address it as an exception when it shows up in a word.

 

Spalding's Rule 4: a, e, o and u usually say their names at the end of a short word or syllable, as in "au-to-ma-tion," "va-ca-tion."

[Ellie]

Also to add to your list, there is the sound a makes in words like above, about, aligned, etc. Sounds like a short u where I am from.

 

Unless you're doing Spalding, which says "a, e, o an u usually say their names at the end of a short word or syllable;" during the spelling lesson, children would be taught to say "A-bove," "A-bout" (long sound of A) for spelling, and then the way we usually say them, "uh-bout" and so on. IOW, for the sake of spelling, Spalding does not use a schwa. :-)

[SKL]

There is so little difference between the long "a" sound and the short "e" sound, though.  I mean, how does your mouth do "scary" vs. "very"?

[ElizabethB]

In ag, the sound is slightly modified.

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/Phonics%20Lsns/Resources/letter%20sound%20read%20new%202011.pdf

[Lara in Colo]

In teaching phonics to my children I often wonder how many words are just mispronounced. 

I am working harder on being more conscious of how I talk.

[Laura Corin]

There is so little difference between the long "a" sound and the short "e" sound, though.  I mean, how does your mouth do "scary" vs. "very"?

 

Those are completely different vowels to me - the first is much longer and my mouth is wider.  'Fairy' is a trochee [edited because I had this wrong] and 'ferry' is a pyrrhus/dibrach.

 

L

[Ellie]

In teaching phonics to my children I often wonder how many words are just mispronounced. 

I am working harder on being more conscious of how I talk.

 

Oh, yeah. Teaching Spalding made me *totally* conscious of how I pronounce words, especially when I taught in my little one-room school. One of my students, a 13yo girl, came to me without much warning; while I waited for her instructional materials to arrive, I gave her some busy work: writing out numbers (which you wouldn't think a 13yo girl would need to do, but, well, it's a long story, lol). She wasn't doing too badly until she got to the 20s, and she wrote, "twenny," "twenny-one," "twenny-two"... :blink: I realized that people (possibly even me!) often say "twenny" instead of "twenty."

 

So, yes, I am way more conscious now of pronunciations. :-)

[MistyMountain]

No it doesn't make a short E sound

 

The A says

 

short a as in cat

long a as in skate

ah like in water

uh like America or Alaska

[SKL]

But I thought there was a different diacritical mark for words like "care" (a > pointing upward or maybe a horizontal : )?

[Ellie]

No it doesn't make a short E sound

 

The A says

 

short a as in cat

long a as in skate

ah like in water

uh like America or Alaska

 

Unless you're doing Spalding or one of its spin-offs/look-alikes, where it will be pointed out that for spelling, we pronounce the a's in those words with the long sound of "a," rather than "uh." :-)

[SKL]

Dictionary entry: care

Pronunciation: (kâr)

[Laura Corin]

Have you ever heard the letter 'a' make the short 'e' sound?  Even if it is in a different language.

 

In the Pinyin transliteration of Chinese, the 'a' in 'Tian' is pronounced as a short 'e'.  Without the 'i', the 'a' is a short 'a' as in the word 'an'.  So Tiananmen Square is roughly:

 

Tyen-an-muhn.

 

However, this is a transliteration of Chinese characters, not a native script as such.

 

L

[alef]

Carry the fairy to the ferry

 

Carry

Fairy

Ferry

Marry

Merry

 

All have the same vowel sound to me.

[Rosie_0801]

Yes, a New Zealand accent can make an 'a' very nearly into an 'e.'

[SKL]

Yeah, Mary Christmas and Merry Christmas would be pronounced the same in these parts.

 

I knew a lady who named her daughter Merry and most people thought the name was Mary.

[alef]

In teaching phonics to my children I often wonder how many words are just mispronounced. 

I am working harder on being more conscious of how I talk.

  

Oh, yeah. Teaching Spalding made me *totally* conscious of how I pronounce words, especially when I taught in my little one-room school. One of my students, a 13yo girl, came to me without much warning; while I waited for her instructional materials to arrive, I gave her some busy work: writing out numbers (which you wouldn't think a 13yo girl would need to do, but, well, it's a long story, lol). She wasn't doing too badly until she got to the 20s, and she wrote, "twenny," "twenny-one," "twenny-two"... :blink: I realized that people (possibly even me!) often say "twenny" instead of "twenty."

 

So, yes, I am way more conscious now of pronunciations. :-)

But this is assuming that a pronunciation that differs from the written form of a word, or from the way the word is or was pronounced in a different region or time, is necessarily incorrect; it is assuming that spoken language is or should be something static and rigid, and that change and variation indicate error or corruption. That isn't how language works.

 

I see nothing wrong with saying "twenny-one".

[SKL]

What I tell my kids was that pronunciations change over time, but spellings have been pretty constant since the invention of the printing press.  It's OK.  ;)

 

I might be a little more careful with pronunciation than my mom was.  I notice that Miss A always says "them" where I would have said "um" as a kid.  ("Can I see 'em?")

[Ellie]

  

But this is assuming that a pronunciation that differs from the written form of a word, or from the way the word is or was pronounced in a different region or time, is necessarily incorrect; it is assuming that spoken language is or should be something static and rigid, and that change and variation indicate error or corruption. That isn't how language works.

 

I see nothing wrong with saying "twenny-one".

 

Really? You don't see anything wrong with saying "twennie-one"?

 

:huh:

 

[Mrs Mungo]

Carry the fairy to the ferry

 

Carry

Fairy

Ferry

Marry

Merry

 

All have the same vowel sound to me.

 

They all have the same vowel sound to me too. But, that will vary greatly according to region. Laura Corin is from the UK. 

 

I disagree that there's anywhere in the US where saying "twenny-one" is fine. It would be considered improper anywhere in the US. 

[SKL]

Really?  Everyone I know who speaks American English says "twennie-one."  Actually more like "twunny-wun."  They also say "thurdy-ate" and "uhhundrid-ninedy."  No, make that "hunderd-ninedy."

[Jane in NC]

Really?  Everyone I know who speaks American English says "twennie-one."  Actually more like "twunny-wun."  They also say "thurdy-ate" and "uhhundrid-ninedy."  No, make that "hunderd-ninedy."

 

To which I must respond "Really?" as well.  Do you live in an area with a strong regional dialect and few incomers?  Even my part of the rural South has seen a number of people from other parts of the US and world move in. Few words are pronounced uniformly.

 

Do you find standard American English on television or national radio programs to be peculiar given that everyone you know speaks a very strong dialect?  (I think a linguist might be fascinated by your area.)

[Laurie4b]

Really?  Everyone I know who speaks American English says "twennie-one."  Actually more like "twunny-wun."  They also say "thurdy-ate" and "uhhundrid-ninedy."  No, make that "hunderd-ninedy."

I think when people are speaking quickly, those pronunciations are common. I grew up in the Northeast  and now live in the South. Nobody means to talk that way, but speaking quickly, I think those are fair representations of the way the words sound: twunny-wun, thurdy-ate, and uhhundrid-ninedy. (not hunderd though)

[73349]

I hear the same sound an e would make in dollar, tenant, and some other words (though not fairy etc.). I think of vowels as slightly fuzzy.

Funny story: shortly after moving to the South, I overheard one woman asking another for either a pin or a pen--I couldn't tell which. And evidently, neither did the (also Southern) woman she was asking. Her response sounded to me like, "Did you want a pay-un or a pay-un?" I still could not hear a difference. It was like French I all over again. "Ecoutez:          é            è." Okay....

[Laurie4b]

There is so little difference between the long "a" sound and the short "e" sound, though.  I mean, how does your mouth do "scary" vs. "very"?

 

Both of those vowels are affected by the r following.

 

Would you say 'aid' and 'Ed' the same way?

[Berta]

Carry the fairy to the ferry

 

Carry

Fairy

Ferry

Marry

Merry

 

All have the same vowel sound to me.

 

These have three different sounds to me.

 

Really?  Everyone I know who speaks American English says "twennie-one."  Actually more like "twunny-wun."  They also say "thurdy-ate" and "uhhundrid-ninedy."  No, make that "hunderd-ninedy."

 

Same here. "twunny-wun" and "thurdy-ate".

[Halftime Hope]

The vowels with an r after them do all kinds of messy things, so the sounds they make are not the classic vowel sounds.  Some phonics programs refer to them as r-controlled vowels, and the short answer is that all bets are off and they have to be individually learned. 

 

I modified the Spalding method for my children and taught them that a had four sounds, like a previous poster listed them  long a, short a, /ah/ like in father, and /uh/ like in another and banana.

 

I'm thinking about the a = short e thing.    It seems like I ran into a few of those in English, but I'll have to dredge them up. 

 

 

[Word Nerd]

I disagree that there's anywhere in the US where saying "twenny-one" is fine. It would be considered improper anywhere in the US.

In middle America, it's common to say "twunny" in everyday speech without clearly enunciating the t. I doubt most people even think about it at all, much less consider it improper.

[Mrs Mungo]

In middle America, it's common to say "twunny" in everyday speech without clearly enunciating the t. I doubt most people even think about it at all, much less consider it improper.

 

I'm from Oklahoma. Saying lie-berry for library is also common, that doesn't mean it would be considered proper. 

[Jane in NC]

In middle America, it's common to say "twunny" in everyday speech without clearly enunciating the t. I doubt most people even think about it at all, much less consider it improper.

My inner linguist is fascinated. 

 

By "middle America" do you mean the Midwest? I grew up in the Midwest and knew people who did not enunciate consonants at the end of words or syllables, but it was not all or most, just a segment of the population. 

 

Is "middle America" a place or a state of mind?

 

 

Edited January 12, 2014 by Jane in NC

[Jane in NC]

I'm from Oklahoma. Saying lie-berry for library is also common, that doesn't mean it would be considered proper. 

 

My New England mother-in-law said "lie-berry" too.

 

Most Americans do not say February correctly--including media types.  So does saying "Feb-u-ary" make it so?

[SKL]

Not sure which vowels are not enunciated in "twenny-one."  But it is quite normal in everyday US speech to not enunciate the "t" in many words.  Of course if you were calling out words for a spelling test, you would enunciate the "t."  But just hanging around with regular people?

 

plenty => plenny

forty => fordy

ante => annie or andy

listen => lissen

attitude => additude

pretty => priddy

what => sometimes the "t" is exchanged for something that isn't quite a letter...  Same thing happens with but and maybe other words.

 

If I went around enunciating the "t" in every word, people would think I was trying to put on a bad British (Briddish) accent.

[Jane in NC]

Not sure which vowels are not enunciated in "twenny-one."  But it is quite normal in everyday US speech to not enunciate the "t" in many words.  Of course if you were calling out words for a spelling test, you would enunciate the "t."  But just hanging around with regular people?

 

plenty => plenny

forty => fordy

ante => annie or andy

listen => lissen

attitude => additude

pretty => priddy

what => sometimes the "t" is exchanged for something that isn't quite a letter...  Same thing happens with but and maybe other words.

 

If I went around enunciating the "t" in every word, people would think I was trying to put on a bad British (Briddish) accent.

 

While I would agree with you on "listen", I have never heard anyone say "plenny" instead of "plenty".

 

A "t" pronounced as a "d" is common to the industrial Midwest, I believe.  Southerners do not say "fordy" for "forty".  Of course, here in coastal NC there are pockets where the dialect resembles Elizabethan English--but no one would go as far to suggest it is modern British, bad or good. 

 

ETA:  Whether American or British English, the "t" in listen or castle is silent.  I need to correct a previous post in which I wrote vowels when I meant consonants.

[musicianmom]

Where I live, the letter a in words like "hand" approaches a short e sound, enough so that my 6yo has a hard time figuring out which vowel goes in "and" and "hand" and "band." It's not really a short e, but it's certainly a different sound than the a in "Apple."

[Berta]

Not sure which vowels are not enunciated in "twenny-one."  But it is quite normal in everyday US speech to not enunciate the "t" in many words.  Of course if you were calling out words for a spelling test, you would enunciate the "t."  But just hanging around with regular people?

 

plenty => plenny

forty => fordy

ante => annie or andy

listen => lissen

attitude => additude

pretty => priddy

what => sometimes the "t" is exchanged for something that isn't quite a letter...  Same thing happens with but and maybe other words.

 

If I went around enunciating the "t" in every word, people would think I was trying to put on a bad British (Briddish) accent.

 

Same here, I'm from New Jersey.

 

Sometimes a "t" is added just for the heck of it lol.... as in "He went accrost the street."

[8circles]

Not sure which vowels are not enunciated in "twenny-one." But it is quite normal in everyday US speech to not enunciate the "t" in many words. Of course if you were calling out words for a spelling test, you would enunciate the "t." But just hanging around with regular people?

 

plenty => plenny

forty => fordy

ante => annie or andy

listen => lissen

attitude => additude

pretty => priddy

what => sometimes the "t" is exchanged for something that isn't quite a letter... Same thing happens with but and maybe other words.

 

If I went around enunciating the "t" in every word, people would think I was trying to put on a bad British (Briddish) accent.

I agree with this except for listen. I don't think the 't' is supposed to be pronounced.

I'm guilty of all of this in everyday casual speech. I make a point to enunciate clearly during school and most of the time talking with my kids.

[GSOchristie]

We had friends from North Dakota who pronounced short a's like e's. They said begs for bags.

[Matryoshka]

Carry the fairy to the ferry

 

Carry

Fairy

Ferry

Marry

Merry

 

All have the same vowel sound to me.

Nope, those are three very different vowel sounds to me.

[Melissa in Australia]

in Australia a has 5 sounds

a as in cat

a as in mate

a as in ask     like ar

a as in all

a as in was     like o

[alef]

See, the idea that there is one true and correct pronunciation for each word, and that the correct pronunciation is indicated by the traditional spelling of the word, ignores the natural tendency of languages to evolve and change. Spoken English in Arkansas is different from English in California, is different from English in Ireland, is different from English in Australia...and all of those differ from the language spoken in 16th century London not to mention the stuff Chaucer wrote and we won't even consider Beowulf. Language is not a monolithic, static structure. If I say "I'm gonna mee' my friend at the liberry on twenny-first stree' an then we're goin ou' fer icecream" I am not mispronouncing anything--I am merely speaking colloquially in the local dialect, the real living language of the area where I live. The same is true of local variations in grammatical structure.

[alef]

Have you ever considered that the gh in light, night, etc. is there because it used to be pronounced? If that sound can disappear from the spoken form of the word, while continuing to persist in the written form, why could the "t" sound not disappear just as legitimately from the spoke form of "twenty"? Or will you claim that my pronunciation of "light" is incorrect unless I pronounce it like the German "Licht"?

[MistyMountain]

Unless you're doing Spalding or one of its spin-offs/look-alikes, where it will be pointed out that for spelling, we pronounce the a's in those words with the long sound of "a," rather than "uh." :-)

My dd is doing spalding but her school made an adjustment to the letter a to make it how we pronounce it. I probably would have done the same myself.

[KathyBC]

In English, no, although some of our words, such as "distance," are exceptions. IOW, I would *not* teach a fourth sound, but address it as an exception when it shows up in a word.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm thinking about the a = short e thing.    It seems like I ran into a few of those in English, but I'll have to dredge them up. 

 

We are working in Megawords book 3, titled Schwa Sound, right now. The diacritical mark used is an upside-down 'e'. There are over 200 words listed with 'a' making the schwa sound. 

[Ellie]

We are working in Megawords book 3, titled Schwa Sound, right now. The diacritical mark used is an upside-down 'e'. There are over 200 words listed with 'a' making the schwa sound. 

 

I know that other methods promote the use of the schwa. :-) But ITA with Mrs. Spalding's assessment, that often it's just a sloppily pronounced vowel. But that's purely for the sake of spelling, which is the same regardless of regional pronunciations or dialects. :-)

[newlifemom]

My understanding was that the schwa was for unaccented syllables.  It isn't mispronunciation, but more of a lack of it due to stressing another syllable in the word.  As far as I know something like America would be written phonetically with a schwa for the first letter and the stress mark on the second syllable.