Language Lessons through Literature- questionable assignment

[Mergath]

I haven't read through the LLtL mega-thread, so if this has been covered there, please let me know. ;)

 

I started using LLtL a couple weeks back, because from what I read in the thread and in the samples we tried, it looked like a nice LA curriculum, and dd was bored silly with the other one we'd planned to use.  LLtL been going well so far, but we got to lesson six today and I was a little horrified.

 

Part of the assignment is for the child to draw a picture of the day's Aesop's fable.  Okay, I thought when I read that part, dd will like that.

 

The only problem is that when I read the fable, I found that it consists of an ox crushing and killing a frog, and then another frog trying to tell about it and exploding.

 

Now, I realize fables often have violence and horrible things happen, and I'm okay with that.  But really? This is the fable they pick to have a young child draw a picture of?  Is my dd supposed to draw the frog being crushed to death, or the frog exploding?  Is this kind of assignment common throughout the curriculum?

 

I know the author posts occasionally on this forum, so I'm hoping she'll see this and provide a little insight.  We're not the kind of family that finds violence humorous, so I'm thinking this curriculum might not be for us after all.

[TianXiaXueXiao]

I recommend you hop on over to the Yahoo Group and get clarity there. KathyJo is very quick to respond! http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/barefootragamuffins/conversations/messages (I think this is the right url for the group)

[ondreeuh]

Ha! We did that lesson this morning too, but I didn't ask him to draw it. We just talked about various impossible things that aren't a good idea to try (like him, as a child, trying to drive a car).

 

It certainly isn't the only Aesop fable to be a little gruesome. I assume you've read the original Grimm fairy tales? The original Mary Poppins? It hasn't always been the custom to protect children from reading about harsh things. I think you are being a little sensitive.

[mommymilkies]

I haven't read through the LLtL mega-thread, so if this has been covered there, please let me know. ;)

 

I started using LLtL a couple weeks back, because from what I read in the thread and in the samples we tried, it looked like a nice LA curriculum, and dd was bored silly with the other one we'd planned to use.  LLtL been going well so far, but we got to lesson six today and I was a little horrified.

 

Part of the assignment is for the child to draw a picture of the day's Aesop's fable.  Okay, I thought when I read that part, dd will like that.

 

The only problem is that when I read the fable, I found that it consists of an ox crushing and killing a frog, and then another frog trying to tell about it and exploding.

 

Now, I realize fables often have violence and horrible things happen, and I'm okay with that.  But really? This is the fable they pick to have a young child draw a picture of?  Is my dd supposed to draw the frog being crushed to death, or the frog exploding?  Is this kind of assignment common throughout the curriculum?

 

I know the author posts occasionally on this forum, so I'm hoping she'll see this and provide a little insight.  We're not the kind of family that finds violence humorous, so I'm thinking this curriculum might not be for us after all.

Half of my kids would think that was a hilarious picture to make, the other half would be horrified.  We read a lot of fables, fairy tales, and the like, but yeah, that one might not be the best choice for young kids. 

[LindaOz]

Ha. My boy would think that was a cool assignment; my many girls would not. The author firstly wrote this curriculum for her own kids and she has a number of boys. Just skip it. I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater - so to speak.

[mommymilkies]

Ha. My boy would think that was a cool assignment; my many girls would not. The author firstly wrote this curriculum for her own kids and she has a number of boys. Just skip it. I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater - so to speak.

I wouldn't categorize all kids that way.  My ds is the huge animal lover here who would have been upset by it. Just because they have a Y chromosome doesn't mean they life stories of animal torture/death.

[RootAnn]

I don't have that curriculum, but my first thought would be to switch out the Aesop fable. (My go-to would be the dog with the bone who passes over the brook on the way home & sees another dog with another bone as his reflection in the water.) Sad Aesop fable, but not that big of a deal to draw (even with my dogs looking like small horses).

 

Hopefully you won't run into things like that further in.

 

(Dd#3 would be horrified. My artist (dd#2) who loves animals might be upset, but just as likely would draw both the ox crushing the frog & the other frog exploding just for the experience.)

[Mergath]

Ha! We did that lesson this morning too, but I didn't ask him to draw it. We just talked about various impossible things that aren't a good idea to try (like him, as a child, trying to drive a car).

 

It certainly isn't the only Aesop fable to be a little gruesome. I assume you've read the original Grimm fairy tales? The original Mary Poppins? It hasn't always been the custom to protect children from reading about harsh things. I think you are being a little sensitive.

 

Like I said in my op, I know many of the fables are gruesome, and I'm fine working with that.  I just found this an extremely odd choice to have the child illustrate, because there are only two real events in the story that could even be illustrated, and both are quite gruesome for a young child. 

 

And I know that some kids are fascinated by things that are gruesome and horrible (especially boys, but some girls too) but we really aren't, so I was just wondering if that's going to be a continuing theme in this curriculum.  I don't think looking for more information about that makes me "sensitive."

 

Also, the info I've seen talks about what a "gentle" LA curriculum this is, so this assignment was a little jarring.

[Mergath]

I wouldn't categorize all kids that way.  My ds is the huge animal lover here who would have been upset by it. Just because they have a Y chromosome doesn't mean they life stories of animal torture/death.

 

My dd is a big animal lover too.  We talk often about how bad things happen in the world and that nature isn't always a warm and fuzzy place, but I don't normally follow that up with, "Okay, now go draw a picture of it." ;)

[Mergath]

I think there are plenty of less gruesome fables.  We just read one about a viper and a file.  It would have been a funny picture to draw.

 

I was thinking the same thing.  It just seemed like a very odd choice for that particular assignment.

[TianXiaXueXiao]

I haven't seen anything like this in level 3. Chalk it up to oddity/visual narration.

[KathyJo]

I know the author posts occasionally on this forum, so I'm hoping she'll see this and provide a little insight.  We're not the kind of family that finds violence humorous, so I'm thinking this curriculum might not be for us after all.

 

An actual email to me, or a post on the Yahoo group, would have made sure I saw it. 

 

I know I'll never please everyone, and that's okay. I have been ridiculously accommodating, though, to many customers. If you'd like a refund, I'll give you one. And if many of my customers would like me to swap that fable in future editions, I'm happy to do so.

 

Insight? I guess I simply don't see Aesop's fables in the same way that you do. And, I figure that since there are 70+ fables in the book, parents can quite easily choose another if the one scheduled for narration day isn't to their liking.

 

Please email me if you'd like that refund.

[Mergath]

 

An actual email to me, or a post on the Yahoo group, would have made sure I saw it. 

 

I know I'll never please everyone, and that's okay. I have been ridiculously accommodating, though, to many customers. If you'd like a refund, I'll give you one. And if many of my customers would like me to swap that fable in future editions, I'm happy to do so.

 

Insight? I guess I simply don't see Aesop's fables in the same way that you do. And, I figure that since there are 70+ fables in the book, parents can quite easily choose another if the one scheduled for narration day isn't to their liking.

 

Please email me if you'd like that refund.

 

 

All I really need to know is if there's a lot of that sort of thing in the book.  Honestly.  I could sit down and read through it all myself, but I figured I'd ask here first because several people here use it and you post here regularly, and so I figured someone could let me know.  I don't need a refund if there isn't.  As I said, we've liked it up until this lesson.  Thank you for getting back to me.

 

And Yahoo Groups makes me want to bang my head repeatedly against a wall. :p  It's like a time machine back to the nineties internet, lol.

[teeniebeenie6]

And Yahoo Groups makes me want to bang my head repeatedly against a wall. :p  It's like a time machine back to the nineties internet, lol.

LOL!! I feel exactly the same way about Yahoo Groups!!

[mathnmusic]

All I really need to know is if there's a lot of that sort of thing in the book.  Honestly.  I could sit down and read through it all myself, but I figured I'd ask here first because several people here use it and you post here regularly, and so I figured someone could let me know.  I don't need a refund if there isn't.  As I said, we've liked it up until this lesson.  Thank you for getting back to me.

 

And Yahoo Groups makes me want to bang my head repeatedly against a wall. :p  It's like a time machine back to the nineties internet, lol.

 

Pardon me poking my nose in, but I wonder how is Kathy Jo supposed to know which, if any, of the other stories will offend you or not?  These are classic tales, written during a time when children’s literature wasn’t sanitized, so I would've thought that each family has to decide for themself what's suitable or not.  For me, reviewing the book list was key before deciding to switch to LLTL.  I personally adore the book list for LLTL, and an added plus is that they're all in the public domain so we didn't have to buy anything if we didn't want to, we could just google it on Project Gutenberg and pull it up for free on our computer (as we did the other day when the copy of our book went missing).  We did the particular lesson you're talking about without batting an eyelash, I guess we're familiar with the cartoonishness of Aesop's fables (talking animals anyone?), and there's plenty more along that vein in the colored Fairy books, and IMO those don't even hold a candle to the emotional trauma/violence of the Greek Myths (which we've avoided up til now for that very reason), even if they're done up with gorgeous artwork like the popular D'Aulaire's version (LLTL doesn’t draw from Greek Myths, I’m just sayin’).  LLTL does have you read from the Blue & Orange Fairy books so if you're offended by this fable, you might want to read ahead and see if you're ok with the those.  If it were me and I were truly offended by something in the curriculum, I'd read ahead and substitute.  For us, LLTL has been an absolute godsend.  I love how thorough, efficient, and (for us) independent it is.  My kids are learning grammar and sentence diagramming while reading real literature and think it's fun!

 

FWIW, here’s the literature list for LLTL levels 1-3, and what Kathy Jo had posted about Levels 4-6 (not yet published so could change), maybe it’ll help in your decision:

 

Level 1

Beatrix Potter stories

Just So Stories

Five Children and It

The Jungle Book

Pinocchio

The Orange Fairy Book

The Velveteen Rabbit

Five Little Peppers and How They Grew

some of Aesop's Fables

 

Level 2

The Wonderful Wizard of Oz

The Blue Fairy Book

Peter Pan

The Wind in the Willows

Alice's Adventure in Wonderland

Through the Looking-Glass and What Alice Found There

A Wonder-Book for Girls and Boys

some of Aesop's Fables

 

Level 3

The Story of Doctor Dolittle

The Marvelous Land of Oz

Beautiful Stories from Shakespeare

The Secret Garden

The Princess and the Goblin

some of Aesop's Fables

 

Levels 4-6 NOT yet published, and may change

 

Level 4

Black Beauty

The Book of Dragons

Heidi

Ozma of Oz

Tanglewood Tales

The Reluctant Dragon

 

Level 5

Tom Sawyer

Around the World in 80 Days

The Emerald City of Oz

Little Women

Two short stories by O. Henry

The Happy Prince and Other Tales by Oscar Wilde

 

Level 6

At the Back of the North Wind

Call of the Wild

The Patchwork Girl of Oz

A Christmas Carol

Sherlock Holmes stories

Other short stories

 

 

Wanna give props to WTMer Silver :hurray: , who compiled this book list for the WTM LLTL group

[Hunter]

Mergath, literature is hard. There were times when I was raising my boys, that we didn't use any fiction for "school" at all. The bIble and biographies were our literature. I'm a lot less rigid now, for sure, but I still get gut checked with literature all the time.

 

There have been some good conversations about literature at the Ambleside online forum.

 

I'm teaching mostly LD adults, many who have PTSD, severe bipolar, and even schizophrenia. The most odd things can be a trigger. for me or for them.

 

There are times some of my students will only read the KJV Bible and nothing else, and I'm prepared for that. I plan to just keep moving forward on schedule with the grammar topic, and will substitute an equal volume of Bible text.

 

It helps me, though, to have gone though as many lessons as possible, as written, to develop a rhythm. Then it's easier to tweak. For example a picture study narration every other week. If I look ahead and see a problem, I know I need to download and store an alternative picture on my iPad, to be ready.

[stutterfish]

Yes when I flicked through there were a few of the fables I didn't much like -e.g. one about a farmer beating a dog, as I recall. But we also found some distasteful excerpts in WWE (in the ilk of spanking children etc..). It's always going to be an issue with older literature.

 

In the case of LLTL dd and I discussed one if the less savoury tales, talked about fables and how people saw things differently in the days when Aesop created the stories. She's older, though, so that's possible.

 

// If you have a young child, I'd just skip the fables you don't like. There are plenty of fables in the books, skipping a few won't detract from the book.//

 

It's a gentle curriculum in the sense that it progresses very slowly, and there's no compulsion/obligation to slog over numerous intense narrations, questions etc. You can do as much or as little suits your child. It's not gentle in the sense of being cute and babyish iykwim?

 

Personally I'm loving LLTL and I'll adapt it to suit us because it's worth it :)

[Mergath]

It wasn't the fable itself, but the fact that a the book has the young child draw a picture of it that seems iffy to me. As I said. Fables have inherent value. Having a five or six year old draw a picture of an animal in the midst of a violent death does not, in my mind.
 

But I guess I have a different PoV on this sort of thing for young children than the other people using this curriculum.  I suppose if people can't understand why I find that problematic, I won't get any info on what other assignments might be the same, so it seems I'll just have to read through myself.

 

But at least it's a heads up for anyone else who likes to avoid that sort of thing.

[Hunter]

In classical terms, "gentle" means attention to developmental appropriateness compared to a curriculum that is more top down planned, with the only priority being of gaining access to a selective 4 year college.

 

Waldorf is called "gentle" but grade 1 is based off of some gruesome Grimms Fairy Tales. Grimms is not gentle. What is gentle is that the child is only expected to write in uppercase letters and not expected to be able to read until 8 years old. Instead they learn to knit and paint.

 

Classical curriculum contain literature that is quite harsh, and reflects the harshness of earlier times. Charlotte Mason materials are often written in the 1800s, and while less gruesome, are often quite racist.

 

For anyone that uses a literature based curriculum, the REALITIES of literature are always going to be a problem.

 

In the past I have shied away from literature based curricula, but now that I instruct mostly from my iPad, literature is more attractive to me as a teaching tool.

[Mergath]

In classical terms, "gentle" means attention to developmental appropriateness compared to a curriculum that is more top down planned, with the only priority being of gaining access to a selective 4 year college.

 

Waldorf is called "gentle" but grade 1 is based off of some gruesome Grimms Fairy Tales. Grimms is not gentle. What is gentle is that the child is only expected to write in uppercase letters and not expected to be able to read until 8 years old. Instead they learn to knit and paint.

 

Classical curriculum contain literature that is quite harsh, and reflects the harshness of earlier times. Charlotte Mason materials are often written in the 1800s, and while less gruesome, are often quite racist.

 

For anyone that uses a literature based curriculum, the REALITIES of literature are always going to be a problem.

 

In the past I have shied away from literature based curricula, but now that I instruct mostly from my iPad, literature is more attractive to me as a teaching tool.

 

I don't know.  I think when people talk about a "gentle" curriculum, they mean a bit of both.  It's fairly laid back in pace, and doesn't have material or assignments that might not be age appropriate.  I mean, if someone wrote a K curriculum that required a Toni Morrison book as a read aloud, I don't think we'd call it "gentle" no matter how slow the pace went. ;)

 

And as I said before, it's not the literature itself that bothers me, because there is value in reading fables and fairy tales.  If the page had just said to read the fable, I would have acked a bit at the exploding frog and then got on with my life.  But I just don't see the point in having a child then draw pictures of dying frogs, except that some kids find gratuitous violence funny and would giggle at that.  We don't find that kind of thing funny, though.

[RootAnn]

My son actually traced a group of one c-rod, and a group of 3 c-rod and narrated (I wrote): "A small thing can not be a big thing without help.

 

I find it interesting that this kid (either by himself or at mom's direction) didn't draw a picture of the fable itself, but of his understanding of the moral of the fable.

 

So, theoretically, you wouldn't have to change the fable or the assignment, but simply draw a picture of their understanding of the moral. (I've seen a number of versions of this fable, so I'm not sure what the moral included in LLtL is.)  :coolgleamA:

[TianXiaXueXiao]

I really don't think humor was the point of the exercise. Would you have preferred it if the assignment asked your child to orally narrate the story instead of drawing it? If so, how is the picture formed in the child's mind while listening and retelling different or less troublesome than a visual illustration?

[Hunter]

I've spent too much time living outside of popculture to know who Toni Morrison is :lol:

 

But I have only seen "gentle" at THIS forum used as a developmental term. I have never seen it used for sanitized and sensitive. "gentle" and "rigor" have become TWTM terms that have consistent definitions, Which is pretty funny since non of us can agree what "classical" means. :lol:

 

It was turtles, not frogs, but my son and his cousin "baked" their Teenaged Mutant Ninja Turtles figurines in their toy oven, when they were little. They would have loved drawing this picture. :lol:

 

Literature is HARD. It just is. It's a messy thing to wrestle with. The author, in later editions, probably will think twice and three times now, before writing, "draw". You make an interesting point.

 

In general, do we need/tend to be more sensitive about drawings? What do others think?

[Hunter]

I googled Toni Morrison. She is Nobel Prize winner. There is a society named after her. So she's a writer not a popstar? What am I supposed to know about her?

[TracyP]

In general, do we need/tend to be more sensitive about drawings? What do others think?

 

IMO, yes. The PP suggested that drawing the fable was no different than narrating the fable. That is silly. Let's take it up a notch and pretend we are dealing with a highschooler reading Crime and Punishment. Holding a discussion about the scene where he kills the old lady is completely appropriate and expected. Requesting that the student draw a picture of it would be bizarre.

[TianXiaXueXiao]

Drawing the fable does not imply that the illustration must include violent imagery. The instruction did not say to depict crushed or exploding frogs. There are many possibilities of how one might imagine a scene and draw a scene.

[TracyP]

Drawing the fable does not imply that the illustration must include violent imagery. The instruction did not say to depict crushed or exploding frogs. There are many possibilities of how one might imagine a scene and draw a scene.

 

You're right. I haven't read the fable so there may be other ways to depict it. Still I do think we should be sensitive to what we are asking our children to draw. Drawing and narrating are very different.

[Mergath]

Drawing the fable does not imply that the illustration must include violent imagery. The instruction did not say to depict crushed or exploding frogs. There are many possibilities of how one might imagine a scene and draw a scene.

In this version of the fable, those were really the only two images, and kids that age tend to be too literal to draw a metaphorical interpretation of the underlying moral.

[Mergath]

I told him to "draw what this story means." This is something he's been doing since he could hold a crayon. Drawing the meaning of something, rather than the actual story itself. I assumed that's what all people did when they drew a picture of something?

 

I have to admit that I feel very dumb reading this thread. I don't understand why something can't just be skipped (either the drawing or the whole fable)....since, as in all things CM, the method is more important than the specific thing you're working with that day. And, as I said, I am going to skip all of Pinocchio. I also don't understand how having a preliterate child draw something about a story and put it in his own words is drastically different than a narrations? I also don't understand how a child's drawing is analogous to a high schooler drawing something from a story? Or why a high schooler drawing something from a story would be bad?

 

Not expecting answers to these quasi-questions, just maybe pointing out that we are all evidently working with very different base assumptions. And if the curriculum isn't for you, then it just isn't and I don't that is a big deal. People decline to use things they could be using every moment of every day.

Obviously, it can be skipped. I just thought I'd find out if I'm going to end up having to skip half the book without sitting down and reading the entire three hundred page pdf. I'm lazy like that. ;)

[TracyP]

 

I also don't understand how having a preliterate child draw something about a story and put it in his own words is drastically different than a narrations? 

 

 

You don't have to understand. That is why I wrote "IMO." ;) It isn't at all hard for me to understand.

 

I also don't understand how a child's drawing is analogous to a high schooler drawing something from a story?

 

 

Why not? I don't understand how it would be very different.

 

Or why a high schooler drawing something from a story would be bad?

 

 

Please don't put words in my mouth.

 

Not expecting answers to these quasi-questions, just maybe pointing out that we are all evidently working with very different base assumptions. And if the curriculum isn't for you, then it just isn't and I don't that is a big deal. People decline to use things they could be using every moment of every day.

 

 

I don't use this curric. I'm just bored on a Saturday afternoon and thought I'd answer Hunter's question. (edited cuz I think I sounded snarky which wasn't my intent :) )

[librarymama]

I googled Toni Morrison. She is Nobel Prize winner. There is a society named after her. So she's a writer not a popstar? What am I supposed to know about her?

 

She wrote The Bluest Eye, a common high school literature selection that riles up parents due to the subject content of incest and rape. 

[Chelli]

My dd6 did this assignment. She drew the frog in pieces in the water with the ox wading in. It didn't bother me. It didn't bother her. Neither of us batted an eye.

 

That being said if I knew it would cause problems I would substitute it for a different fable.

 

To answer your original question, I haven't come across anything else questionable for them to draw, but we are only a couple of weeks ahead of that assignment due to Christmas break.

 

I can list the fables that they are asked to illustrate in Level 1 if you'd like for me to. I have them typed up and filed so it would only take a few minutes instead of wading through the pdf.

[Farrar]

I googled Toni Morrison. She is Nobel Prize winner. There is a society named after her. So she's a writer not a popstar? What am I supposed to know about her?

 

She's indisputably one of America's foremost living writers, but her fiction is often brutally honest about sexism, racism, violence, etc.  I think Mergath just meant that she might be the adult equivalent of this fable.  You wouldn't ever call her work "gentle" even if the curriculum studied it slowly and with lots of support.

 

I don't know the program, but I wouldn't let one choice turn me off like that.  Not with fables and fairy tales being what they are.

[Hunter]

Obviously, it can be skipped. I just thought I'd find out if I'm going to end up having to skip half the book without sitting down and reading the entire three hundred page pdf. I'm lazy like that. ;)

Prereading. I end out prereading just about everything. I don't instruct well, when I haven't preread, Never mind the need to sometimes filter.

 

I was just rereading EM Daily Science 1, and there is a lesson comparing a teddy bear to a real bear. I didn't think before I did that lesson with a student, last year. Major trauma, with me picking up the stuffed dog and asking, "living or nonliving?" Warning, do NOT ask some students that question? Was I afraid to use the rest of the curriculum? No? And BFSU is way worse at wanting to trash a student's sense of make believe.

 

No one can preread for ME. Only I can preread for ME.

[Hunter]

She wrote The Bluest Eye, a common high school literature selection that riles up parents due to the subject content of incest and rape.

Thank you. Another member e-mailed me too. I really didn't know anything about this.

[Hunter]

She's indisputably one of America's foremost living writers, but her fiction is often brutally honest about sexism, racism, violence, etc. I think Mergath just meant that she might be the adult equivalent of this fable. You wouldn't ever call her work "gentle" even if the curriculum studied it slowly and with lots of support.

 

I don't know the program, but I wouldn't let one choice turn me off like that. Not with fables and fairy tales being what they are.

Thank you farrar

[MeaganS]

There seems to be some debate about whether "drawing" a picture for a story is any different than just narrating.  I think there absolutely is a good reason why pictures are used in early language arts programs like this both as picture study for narrations and the reverse, drawing a picture as the narration.  Pictures are a way to get around the trickiness of language while still showing a story.  Separating the meaning of the story from the actual words can happen with pictures.  If a child has difficulty narrating, but can draw a picture of what happened, then you know that they understand the story and that their problem is just with talking about it.  It is just one more way to show comprehension.

[Mergath]

My dd6 did this assignment. She drew the frog in pieces in the water with the ox wading in. It didn't bother me. It didn't bother her. Neither of us batted an eye.

 

That being said if I knew it would cause problems I would substitute it for a different fable.

 

To answer your original question, I haven't come across anything else questionable for them to draw, but we are only a couple of weeks ahead of that assignment due to Christmas break.

 

I can list the fables that they are asked to illustrate in Level 1 if you'd like for me to. I have them typed up and filed so it would only take a few minutes instead of wading through the pdf.

 

Thank you.  This is exactly the kind of answer I was looking for. :)  That would be lovely, if it wouldn't be an inconvenience for you.  But please don't worry about it if you don't have the time.  Thanks again. 

[Mergath]

She's indisputably one of America's foremost living writers, but her fiction is often brutally honest about sexism, racism, violence, etc.  I think Mergath just meant that she might be the adult equivalent of this fable.  You wouldn't ever call her work "gentle" even if the curriculum studied it slowly and with lots of support.

 

I don't know the program, but I wouldn't let one choice turn me off like that.  Not with fables and fairy tales being what they are.

 

Yup.  That's it. :)

 

I guess I'm just more sensitive to animal violence than some people.  I'm not making a decision either way yet, just wanted more information.

[Mergath]

Prereading. I end out prereading just about everything. I don't instruct well, when I haven't preread, Never mind the need to sometimes filter.

 

I was just rereading EM Daily Science 1, and there is a lesson comparing a teddy bear to a real bear. I didn't think before I did that lesson with a student, last year. Major trauma, with me picking up the stuffed dog and asking, "living or nonliving?" Warning, do NOT ask some students that question? Was I afraid to use the rest of the curriculum? No? And BFSU is way worse at wanting to trash a student's sense of make believe.

 

No one can preread for ME. Only I can preread for ME.

 

And yet we all ask each other's advice on different curricula here all the time.  If I didn't value the opinions of the people here, I wouldn't have bothered asking.

[Chelli]

Thank you.  This is exactly the kind of answer I was looking for. :)  That would be lovely, if it wouldn't be an inconvenience for you.  But please don't worry about it if you don't have the time.  Thanks again. 

 

Glad to help out! Here are the fables that are supposed to be drawn:

 

The Spendthrift and the Swallows

The Birds, the Beast, and the Bat

The Eagle and the Jackdaw

The Eagle and the Beetle

The Milkmaid and her Pail

The Hares and the Frogs

The Vain Jackdaw and His Borrowed Feathers

The Mischievous Dog

The Fox and the Lion

The Wolf and the Sheep

The Dogs and the Fox

The Lion and the Ass

The Two Goats

The Leap at Rhodes

The Rat and the Elephant

The Sheep and the Pig

The Lion, the Bear, and the Fox

[Mergath]

Glad to help out! Here are the fables that are supposed to be drawn:

 

The Spendthrift and the Swallows

The Birds, the Beast, and the Bat

The Eagle and the Jackdaw

The Eagle and the Beetle

The Milkmaid and her Pail

The Hares and the Frogs

The Vain Jackdaw and His Borrowed Feathers

The Mischievous Dog

The Fox and the Lion

The Wolf and the Sheep

The Dogs and the Fox

The Lion and the Ass

The Two Goats

The Leap at Rhodes

The Rat and the Elephant

The Sheep and the Pig

The Lion, the Bear, and the Fox

 

Thank you very much! :D

[Alicia64]

Ha. My boy would think that was a cool assignment; my many girls would not. The author firstly wrote this curriculum for her own kids and she has a number of boys. Just skip it. I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater - so to speak.

 

My 10 year old boys would be appalled by this assignment. They're huge animal lovers.

 

Alley

[Hunter]

Is it appalling to let a child draw a picture of a Bible story that included a violent act? Just about every Bible story has some violence. And people die more often than animals. It's pretty standard practice to have children who cannot write yet, draw.

 

Do we shelter a child from all violence in literature until he can write? 

 

Year 1 uses picture studies one week, and drawing the alternate week, as the first steps in writing. It's a steady progression that takes years. And it's an efficient and logical plan. The first edition is going to have some humorous moments, where methods might clash with stories for some families.

 

These aren't real frogs! A lot of people think the Bible is true, though. It's a good thing some of you didn't see what my Sunday School kids drew.

 

 

[Hunter]

Does Bugs Bunny and the Road Runner still come on TV? Is Saturday morning still all about mushed animals? I don't know, because I don't have a TV.

[Hunter]

Well, a good thing that came out of this thread for me, is that I found read.gov has a nice compilation of these fables on their website, with the Milo Winter illustrations.  I went looking for the fable so I could read it myself and then read it to my kids if I found it appropriate to see how they responded (mine are older, but extreme animal lovers).  I found it on http://read.gov/aesop/index.htm and funny enough (or not, depending on your persepective), this particular fable has a little interactive picture you can click on to "make" the frog puff up until it explodes.  It's done in a cute, humorous way, if such a thing can be called cute or humorous. Obviously it wouldn't be either with real frogs, but with cartoon frogs in a fable of this nature, it wasn't at all disturbing to my kids.  In any case, my only point in posting is that others using this curriculum (or otherwise using fables), might find the website a good resource.  Looks like they have an app version you can download for your ipad or iphone as well.

 

Thanks! That was so cute! :lol:

[Mergath]

Does Bugs Bunny and the Road Runner still come on TV? Is Saturday morning still all about mushed animals? I don't know, because I don't have a TV.

 

Not in my house.  We don't have cable specifically so we can avoid children's tv filled with violence.  Even as a kid, I thought watching a bunch of animals hurt each other over and over was distasteful.

[NASDAQ]

See, my second-born would want to draw things exploding just because he likes explosions. My first-born cries at weird things and I can't predict it.

 

I think the negative feedback is coming because most of us don't think that being willing to draw a picture of something violent happening to an animal translates to finding violence against animals particularly funny. Which might not have been what you meant, but it does come across a bit like that on a cursory reading.

[Hunter]

I never liked most of the Saturday morning cartoons. They were not funny to me, or interesting in any way. I'm just curious if they are still on, and if their removal is part of a cultural shift in how people think about such things.

 

I've never expected people to share my sense of humor. I've always been differnet that way, sitting stone faced while others laughed. I have never felt above others when I didn't think Bugs and the Three Stooges were not funny. It just wasn't funny. But it never occurred to me to think they were wrong. And many people don't label things that surreal as violence.

 

And I don't think this assignment was written with humor, but the link to the website with the fable is funny to me. I will be using that with this lesson plan. There is nothing violent about that graphic at all.

 

Now Hansel and Gretel is violent! And Little Red Riding Hood. What about the Little Gingerbread man? Is it violent for a cookie to get eaten? Traditional literature is violent. That's why I didn't use it during my very rigid and religious phases. I don't know how you can use traditional literature and CM, Waldorf and other vintage and ancient teaching methods to teach them, without dealing with drawing and retelling violence.

 

For those that won't draw violence, what about retellings? The type where a student creates their own similar story, rather than talking about the story.

[wendyroo]

Slightly off topic, but having nothing to do with animal violence this is not a fable I would want to read to my kids.

 

I have no issues with discussing or depicting fictional frogs dying by accident or suicide.  And that is what it boils down to - the small frog was accidentally stepped on by the ox which is unfortunate, but an unintentional and unavoidable part of life.  The old frog puffed herself up until she burst which was clearly self inflicted.

 

Also, if my child did not want to draw a violent scene I would suggest he draw the scene right before the actions starts (a cluster of small frogs in the muddy pond with the ox nearby) or the scene of the old frog missing the little frog and looking around for him or a picture of the old frog puffing up (before exploding) and asking the little frog if she was as big as the ox.

 

But, aside from all of that, does "Do not attempt the impossible." not strike anyone else as a crappy moral.  How do we know what is impossible until we try?  The old frog did not know how big the monster was and therefore clearly didn't know if it would be impossible for her to puff up that big.  My son spent several hours yesterday trying to make a tunnel for his toy train that did not have any walls (or anything else holding it up or suspending it).  I think in his mind he envisioned the roof of the tunnel just levitating above the train with nothing touching it.  Impossible?  Probably.  But I'm glad he has not learned to not attempt the impossible.  After several hours, plus string, magnets, computer fans, pipe cleaners, balloons and an entire roll of scotch tape he has declared the project hard, but he is certainly not ready to say it is impossible.

 

Wendy