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For all those rejection/deferred/wait-listed receivers


8filltheheart
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Our community college and state university courses are using the same texts and covering the same content.  The major difference is the size of the classes and the student to faculty ratio.  As all state universities must accept the credits from CCs, the standards of content and grading must be maintained.   This does obviously vary somewhat depending on the professors/instructors, but that's true of all colleges and universities.

 

Which still does not mean that the rigor of two courses who cover the same content, using the same textbook and adhering to the same grading standard is identical - unless the assignments and tests are identical as well. I am not saying that this is the case for your schools, but as a college instructor, I can not emphasize it enough that two courses that use the same textbook can vary greatly in depth and problem difficulty.
 

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Exactly. Just as I said in another thread - fewer and fewer (or no) credits for AP as you move up the food chain. But, I think it would be VERY difficult to get accepted into the upper tier schools without AP or dual enrollment. JMO.

 

Yes, for most students it would be very difficult.  The exception would be for students who come from school districts which do not offer any APs or dual enrollment.   The colleges, the ones which look for such students,  know what they're looking for in these cases as exceptional students tend to look exceptional no matter where they went to school.

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Hoggirl as far as admission status as a freshman or transfer student, we've found that the more selective a college the more lenient their policy on the number of college credits an incoming student can have. All of the top schools we've looked at allow an unlimited number and will even allow an associates degree as long as the classes were taken while in high school. Some of the much less selective ones we've seen have had caps even below 30 credits. We can't consider those colleges as she wants four years and not just two.

 

Like everything else related to giving our individual children the best education we can, there are so many different paths and all are valid. There's nothing wrong with gearing their high school courses and testing to what the schools they want to attend seem to prefer. Sounds smart to me. There's nothing wrong with doing what the student wants to do and ignoring the more traditional paths, but the student needs to know that they're outside the box and that their path may or may not get them admission to some schools. And there's nothing wrong with coming up with something in the middle. Acceptance is another thing entirely as highly selective schools are highly selective regardless of the stats or path chosen. As they say, they could fill the incoming class with 2400/36 4.0 students, but there's so much more to it than that. Thankfully!

 

 

Would be nice to see more of sharing our own paths without discrediting those chosen by others.

Wow! Very interesting on what you have found on schools accepting credits. The top LAC my ds applied to limits credits to the equivalent of one semester. Another of his top twenty research university limits the student to 15 hours from any source. I haven't looked at all of them. Just like always it's a YMMV situation, and one must check the policies of the individual schools.

 

So true - admission to top schools is ridiculously hard no matter what!

 

I certainly hope I have not come across as discrediting anyone on this thread. That was absolutely not my intention, and I apologize if I came across that way. I can't speak with any authority at all since the end result of all this is still unknown to us.

 

I think at this point my struggle is the WAIT. There is nothing left to do, and I think that idleness makes me start second guessing EVERYTHING about how we have approached things. For me, it is hard not to look at others and feel insecure and wonder, "Gosh, should we have done *that* instead?"

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I completely agree. I would not want to make my kids jump through every hoop either, because I do not believe in focusing four years of the student's life solely on the elusive goal of admittance to a highly selective school (and going for AP exams would have meant to compromise the content of our studies and tailor them to match the test)

It's just that my DD would have insisted on jumping through whatever ridiculous hoop there might have been if the result would have been guaranteed. The last being the crucial word.

 

I hope you didn't take my post personally, R, b/c I didn't mean it that way.  :)   Thing is that if a school ever said that, every single student with the same goals as your dd would insist on doing the same thing.   There really is no way around the fact that there will always be more students willing to do whatever it takes than there are available spots.  I guess it is why I see it really as a hoop vs. anything of real value.   If the only purpose is a filter, than they will never be able to adequately filter all the able applicants.  

 

FWIW, one of the reasons I am unenamored with UA is the fact that they are so numbers driven.   I really want ds to attend a school where he is accepted as a person vs. a number filler-in-er.   FWIW, I don't think that MIT is strictly a numbers school and really does look at the person factor b/c if they were strictly a numbers school, ds would have been rejected vs. deferred.    If he is rejected, I don't think it really means anything more than he didn't fill whatever it is that they are looking for and it will have nothing to do with his SAT/ACT scores.

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About acceptance of AP and other credit taken during high school --

 

One thing that I can't quite figure out is

1) My older two went to a top-20 LAC that accepted all of their AP scores and all credits taken at a 4-year college, though none of their community college credits transferred. (We didn't have an issue with that.)

 

2) Now my youngest is applying to college. She looked at two of the "Colleges That Change Lies" colleges very closely. They are much lower-ranked than the college my older kids attended, but they are much fussier about AP credits and will only give a MAXIMUM of 6 classes' worth of credt -- period. I am still scratching my head over this -- lower ranked yet fussier about AP credit and a very low maximum amount of transfer credit.

 

Transfer credits aren't the be-all-and-end-all, so dd is applying to one of the two schools, but I am still wondering how a significantly more "academic" college can be so much more generous with AP and transfer credit than one that is less academic!

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I know of three seniors who got into Stanford early decision at my son's school. Two of them (they are best friends) are very good in math, science and computer science. Those two took almost all level 4 classes (honors) all four years as well as summer school and classes at a nearby university. They had a really heavy schedule.

 

The third kid took almost all level 3s which is what most kids take. At this high school, it's unusual to get in to a school like Stanford without having taken mostly level 4s. He's one of those kids who did something unique. My son only knows about him through a chess friend so I don't know what exactly he did. My point is that unusual passions can get students in to schools even if they don't take the challenging classes. They're not all hoop jumping.

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Wow! Very interesting on what you have found on schools accepting credits. The top LAC my ds applied to limits credits to the equivalent of one semester. Another of his top twenty research university limits the student to 15 hours from any source. I haven't looked at all of them. Just like always it's a YMMV situation, and one must check the policies of the individual schools.

 

So true - admission to top schools is ridiculously hard no matter what!

 

I certainly hope I have not come across as discrediting anyone on this thread. That was absolutely not my intention, and I apologize if I came across that way. I can't speak with any authority at all since the end result of all this is still unknown to us.

 

I think at this point my struggle is the WAIT. There is nothing left to do, and I think that idleness makes me start second guessing EVERYTHING about how we have approached things. For me, it is hard not to look at others and feel insecure and wonder, "Gosh, should we have done *that* instead?"

 

NO!   I've never read you doing anything but sharing your path!   None of us knows what the outcomes will be.  Yes, waiting with such uncertainty is hard.  Yes, the hindsight is a killer.   I hope my choices, in what I've limited, haven't adversely affected my dd's options.  Most choices were made with financial considerations.  But last I checked, it's still not growing on trees.  lol

 

I hope you mean accepting the credits for transfer credits and not for admission.  If this isn't what you mean, would you mind sharing the name of one of them either here or in a PM?   I may have not looked closely enough.   More hindsight!   What I was referring to was the limit, or lack thereof, of the number of credits the student is allowed to take while dual enrolled and still be considered an incoming freshman.  Most of the top universities don't accept any of these credits and enroll the students as freshmen.  We want freshman status.  The transfer of credits and placement is secondary and for dd to work out when she gets there, if they even allow any.

 

 

Looking back at my post which is causing problems, I should have said freshman "versus"  transfer instead of "and".  Sorry I wasn't clear. 

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Laura thank you for all your information on the UK system as I find it interesting how it's handled in different countries.  I had assumed the test was only given once, and obviously I'm wrong!   I guess when I hear of needing a qualifying test score, China's system comes to mind and they do administer the test only once a year, but theirs is three days long.  :svengo:

 

 

The tests are usually given twice a year in May/June and November or February.  If you are taking a full set of exams, the exam season lasts about a month, with two or three two-hour exams for each subject.  It's a pretty major undertaking.  This is an IB timetable.  The good thing about the multiple exams for each subject is that if you are not on top form one day, you can partially redeem that in the other exams.  Almost all exams are essay-based.  You will not, to my knowledge, find a multi-choice at this level.

 

If someone doesn't get a high enough mark to fulfil the university offers, they can either join 'clearing', where universities that have extra places offer them at the last minute to students who are placeless, or they can retake in the winter and then apply for university again the next year, this time with firm grades in hand.

 

L

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Interesting!

 

IB is very rigorous and time consuming here too, both throughout the year and with testing. 

 

It's great that if a student misses their mark they can apply to others with openings, or re-test for the next year.  And they do have the benefit of knowing ahead of time what score they need to get, whereas here it's more ambiguous.

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I know of three seniors who got into Stanford early decision at my son's school. Two of them (they are best friends) are very good in math, science and computer science. Those two took almost all level 4 classes (honors) all four years as well as summer school and classes at a nearby university. They had a really heavy schedule.

 

The third kid took almost all level 3s which is what most kids take. At this high school, it's unusual to get in to a school like Stanford without having taken mostly level 4s. He's one of those kids who did something unique. My son only knows about him through a chess friend so I don't know what exactly he did. My point is that unusual passions can get students in to schools even if they don't take the challenging classes. They're not all hoop jumping.

 

This is actually my pt.   I don't think the more select schools are filtering just by numbers.   I do think they do review complete applications and try to see beyond the surface.   I don't think the AP course list vs. college courses is going to tip the scale on way or the other.   It think how it all fits together in the larger picture does.

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Which still does not mean that the rigor of two courses who cover the same content, using the same textbook and adhering to the same grading standard is identical - unless the assignments and tests are identical as well. I am not saying that this is the case for your schools, but as a college instructor, I can not emphasize it enough that two courses that use the same textbook can vary greatly in depth and problem difficulty.

 

 

 

University students who have taken courses at the community college comment that they are very similar in depth and difficulty; some have complained that they are harder.  As my last sentence stated, this can vary based on the professor/instructor as it can at any college or university.   If the state universities found that students coming from a particular community college are not well prepared for the upper level courses, then I'm sure that the course content/rigor would come into question.  States where this is a problem generally do not have automatic credit transfer from the CCs to their universities.   Are the samples worked during class and the tests given to all students standardized at your university?   They are in some classes my dd has taken, but it's the exception rather than the norm. 

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To me, aiming for top tier means you have no guarantees. That said, Muttichen has a great point. Doing the things her kids did seemed to be a way to significantly increase the odds of acceptance, and like Muttichen said, her kids have all been accepted to the Ivy League so far. Of course, doing the things Muttichen listed would be no small feat IMO. How many kids win international competitions?

 

With regard to some colleges/universities using stats almost exclusively or appearing to do so, it seems they are really mostly interested in academic credentials, and that's where they mainly look. Get this score, and we will probably give you this $. However, top schools want to see those high stats, too, in most cases. Once you have that, they then want to see what else you have. I would think it is very tough for someone to break into the Ivy League (or comparable schools) with less than stellar scores/academic credentials unless you have some other major hook going for you. Being a wonderful smart productive kid probably isn't enough most of the time--or that's how it seems to me. 

 

I've repeatedly said to my kids there is no perfect fit school, and goals can be achieved in a wide variety of ways. :)

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  Are the samples worked during class and the tests given to all students standardized at your university?   They are in some classes my dd has taken, but it's the exception rather than the norm. 

 

They are standardized for some large introductory courses with multiple sections. For instance, all 450 students in our engineering physics will listen to identical lectures, have identical homework, and take identical exams, even though they are enrolled in different lecture and recitation sections. The additional practice problems for use in recitation are also coordinated among recitation instructors, (although the occasional instructor chooses to structure his recitations differently, which does create an issue). The exams are graded collectively by the entire group of instructors involved in teaching the course.

Concurrent exams and concurrent grading for that many students pose a logistic challenge, but students appreciate the "fairness" of the process. They complain about courses in other departments where different sections of the same introductory course have different assignments and different exams and the grade can depend on who your instructor is. Our department finds the consistency very important and strives to maintain it.

 

If I recall correctly, a similar push towards unifying instruction has been made for the introductory English classes, of which there are multiple sections. I believe chemistry is unified too, and possibly calculus (not sure since the details change every now and then)

 

Did I understand your question correctly: is this what you meant?

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About acceptance of AP and other credit taken during high school --

 

One thing that I can't quite figure out is

1) My older two went to a top-20 LAC that accepted all of their AP scores and all credits taken at a 4-year college, though none of their community college credits transferred. (We didn't have an issue with that.)

 

2) Now my youngest is applying to college. She looked at two of the "Colleges That Change Lies" colleges very closely. They are much lower-ranked than the college my older kids attended, but they are much fussier about AP credits and will only give a MAXIMUM of 6 classes' worth of credt -- period. I am still scratching my head over this -- lower ranked yet fussier about AP credit and a very low maximum amount of transfer credit.

 

Transfer credits aren't the be-all-and-end-all, so dd is applying to one of the two schools, but I am still wondering how a significantly more "academic" college can be so much more generous with AP and transfer credit than one that is less academic!

Well, I have a theory. Who knows if it is accurate. I would assume that a top-20 LAC would have a much more substantial endowment than those found in the Colleges That Change Lives (my alma mater is one of those). Lower endowment means more tuition money is needed. Limiting the number of credits they will give through AP ensures more tuition money. You have to be there longer to graduate. That means they receive more tuition $ from you.
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This is actually my pt. I don't think the more select schools are filtering just by numbers. I do think they do review complete applications and try to see beyond the surface. I don't think the AP course list vs. college courses is going to tip the scale on way or the other. It think how it all fits together in the larger picture does.

I think the numbers are a threshold. If you don't meet that threshold, you are automatically rejected. If you meet the threshold you get into the read pile. How important numbers are at *that* point, I do not know.

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I can look at Naviance and see from years of our school's statistics on individual students, what sort of numbers colleges want to see from a student. It's not written in stone, of course, but it does give an idea of what they're generally looking for.

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I think the numbers are a threshold. If you don't meet that threshold, you are automatically rejected. If you meet the threshold you get into the read pile. How important numbers are at *that* point, I do not know.

 

I agree.  When I read CC, the kids seem to think the numbers are all that matter--that a 2400 and 14 APs  should have been a guaranteed acceptance and make them stand out amg all the other applicants and can't understand why they were rejected or deferred.   Or if they score a 750 or a 780 on a subject test that they need to retake it for a 800 or they will be rejected.   But when you look at the bigger picture of acceptances and deferred/rejections, it just doesn't look that way.   My ds's test scores aren't bad by any stretch.   But nor are they a 2400.   I think the fact that he wasn't rejected means that he surpassed whatever threshold they were looking for when combined with all of his upper level work.  It looks like there is a threshold number and then it is impossible to interpret anything from just stats.   I think it is where the essay and LOR and filling in that niche makes the difference.   But, what that actual magical "whatever" is that pushes one ahead of another, I have no idea.

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They are standardized for some large introductory courses with multiple sections. For instance, all 450 students in our engineering physics will listen to identical lectures, have identical homework, and take identical exams, even though they are enrolled in different lecture and recitation sections. The additional practice problems for use in recitation are also coordinated among recitation instructors, (although the occasional instructor chooses to structure his recitations differently, which does create an issue). The exams are graded collectively by the entire group of instructors involved in teaching the course.

Concurrent exams and concurrent grading for that many students pose a logistic challenge, but students appreciate the "fairness" of the process. They complain about courses in other departments where different sections of the same introductory course have different assignments and different exams and the grade can depend on who your instructor is. Our department finds the consistency very important and strives to maintain it.

 

If I recall correctly, a similar push towards unifying instruction has been made for the introductory English classes, of which there are multiple sections. I believe chemistry is unified too, and possibly calculus (not sure since the details change every now and then)

 

Did I understand your question correctly: is this what you meant?

 

Yes, that's what I meant.   In one of her classes which did have identical exams, the teachers still taught in different ways, so it's not as standardized as at your university.   For the classes which do have the same tests, the students don't get to have the exams after they're graded, but still it seems like it would be hard to prevent cheating by those who are so inclined, because as you say administering the test at the same time would be logistically challenging, or likely impossible at her college.

 

I would think it would be important for the recitation instructors to be coordinated as all those students are essentially in the same class.  We haven't come across that as all her classes have been very small with only one instructor.   She'll experience a large lecture for the first time next fall, but in the classes which are strictly lecture and not discussion, she doesn't think it will make a difference. 

 

Honestly, unless she attends the state university herself and sits in on the same classes, she won't know how they compare.  But again, it would likely vary by instructor anyway.

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I can look at Naviance and see from years of our school's statistics on individual students, what sort of numbers colleges want to see from a student. It's not written in stone, of course, but it does give an idea of what they're generally looking for.

 

I know that Naviance is used by high school guidance counselors to help guide students and to know which ones have a better chance of being admitted.

 

I wish Naviance had one just for homeschoolers.  lol   It would not only help with knowing the chances, but it would probably be a good indication of just how "homeschool friendly" a college is regarding admission and whether homeschoolers are held to different standards than the general pool of high school students.  

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I know that Naviance is used by high school guidance counselors to help guide students and to know which ones have a better chance of being admitted.

 

I wish Naviance had one just for homeschoolers. lol It would not only help with knowing the chances, but it would probably be a good indication of just how "homeschool friendly" a college is regarding admission and whether homeschoolers are held to different standards than the general pool of high school students.

Our GC says that our charter school is too small (about 70 per grade) to get much benefit out of it, so we don't have it.

 

I know we have a college acceptance thread. Perhaps we (or those who continue to homeschool high school - my input might not help since we didn't) should consider compiling a sort of "results" thread after all acceptances are in??? Just a thought.

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Here is what author Michele Hernandez, in A is for Admission, says about test scores: "So, what colleges are saying, in effect, is the SAT counts for everyoneÂ Ă¢â‚¬â€¹so long as you're not one of the 40 percent who fall into special categories, in which case they'll overlook them, but then in order to keep the class average high, virtually the entire 60 percent remaining in the class has to have super-high SAT scores to bring up the average." Michele Hernandez goes on to quote Peter Schmidt, author of Color and Money: How Rich White Kids are Winning the War over College Affirmative Action, who says most kids who resort to pulling strings do so because they have "failed to make a decent showing in a game systematically rigged in their favor."  

 

Michele Hernadez also writes: "If you can read and write well, the rest will follow. Those who are gifted in math but are weak readers and writers will ultimately stand a lesser chance of acceptance to a top college (unless they apply to very technologically oriented colleges such as Cal Tech and MIT), since it is far more typical to see a strong math/science student than to see a standout humanities student." She goes on to say, "A love of learning and reading is almost always instilled in students in the home, not in school." She points out that children who score an 800 on the critical reading section are usually life-long readers. It isn't something they can work on in a short time and achieve.   

 

A few days ago, I read a section on college admissions in a local magazine on parenting teens. One piece of advice given (and I have read/heard this before) was that extracurriculars are only important to a few schools. What matters most, in order of importance--grades, rigor of curriculum, and scores on the SAT or ACT.

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A few days ago, I read a section on college admissions in a local magazine on parenting teens. One piece of advice given (and I have read/heard this before) was that extracurriculars are only important to a few schools. What matters most, in order of importance--grades, rigor of curriculum, and scores on the SAT or ACT.

 

I am sceptical whether the bolded is still the case, since everybody complains about the rampant grade inflation in high school.

And for us homeschoolers, I am sure that test scores definitely trump mommy grades.

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Colleges offer hints.  

 

For example, click on this link for Berkeley:

 

https://bigfuture.collegeboard.org/college-university-search/university-of-california-berkeley

 

On the left, choose Applying.  

 

Then scroll down and click on the What's Important tab.  Note that Berkeley claims GPA is "Very Important" while Test Scores are only "Important."

 

Peace,

Janice

 
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^I can't get that to open - it keeps spinning around - ha ha! But, my guess is that information is the stuff that comes directly from the CDS, Question C7. Here is Princeton's (it's on page 7):

 

http://registrar.princeton.edu/university_enrollment_sta/common_cds2012.pdf

 

For any school one is interested in (that publishes a Common Data Set) one can find how that school weights different factors in its admissions decisions.

 

I don't think any blanket statements can be made about what is or is not considered or is or is not important. As always, the answers are "It depends," or "YMMV." ;) So doing research about particular schools of interest should be done, I think.

 

ETA: JMO, but I think all schools are looking to see how much grades, test scores, and rigor align with each other. High grades with marginal test scores could certainly indicate the *possibility* of grade inflation. High test scores with low grades could certainly indicate the *possibility* of lack of motivation, work ethic, etc.

 

Whether grades and test scores are valid or desirable ways to evaluate an applicant can be debated. What is not debatable is that the use of numbers cannot be wished away whether one agrees with their use or not. There are test optional schools out there.

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What is most important according to my son's guidance counselor is GPA/rigor. Then test scores. Then ECs. Sometimes unusual activities or talents are give a lot of weight. Sometimes unusual circumstances get extra weight, too. It just depends.

 

Universities that recruit at high school campuses generally know what sort of student from that high school will succeed at their university. That is, they can see how past students from that high school have historically performed at their university, so they know what to look for in a candidate. The recruiters have a good idea what the classes cover, how difficult they are, whether the school engages in grade inflation and if the school's ECs are meaningful. (About 500 schools recruit at my son's high school, IIRC.)

 

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I think one of the questions is what is a good score vs what is a weak score. I personally do not believe that a 2250 is that much different from a 2400 which is where a lot of the shock seems to come in from the kids posting onCC. A 2250 could be a 750 in each section. I do not believe that missing a total of just a few questions on a Sat morning bubble test makes someone less desirable than a perfect score in the way admissions read the entire application. That is where I think a lot of the kids on CC are confused. They think those scores are radically different. What exactly is a weak score? A 2100? With every score starting with a 7, students are somewhere above 94th%. You have to get to the mid 600s to hit the 90th%.

 

So is a child in the mid 90s with stronger courses, fab LOR, and thought-provoking essay less qualified than the 2400?

It really makes no difference to me if yes is that answer bc I will never have 2400 kid to find out one way or the other. ;)

 

Seriously, I would not change anything we have done one way or the other as far as academics go. Ds is happy with what he did in high school and has no regrets. The only thing I might do differently would be to pursue extra time for testing. But, I really don't think it would have made any difference bc I don't believe his scores have held him back at all one way or the other which is why I think they just want to see kids in the upper 90s, not just the 99th. I think the picture is different bc I don't think he would have been accepted into GA Tech as an OOS student if test scores weighed more heavily than the rest of the application or receive as much of a merit scholarship as he did from Case. I think the deferral at MIT is as simple as everyone just can't be accepted.

 

But, as I have said before, admissions doesn't stress me out as much as cost.

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Well, I'd say what is a "weak score" depends on the school! I say that often, don't I!

 

I'm going to answer with the use of a data point, which I know you don't like, 8FilltheHeart, but I don't know any other way to answer it - not that you are necessarily asking my opinion anyway. Lol! I like looking at those CDS numbers to get an idea of whether a child is in the ballpark at all. You get a kid with a high enough test score, and they are going to be in range anywhere. At that point, yes, I think there are MANY other factors involved. But you have to start somewhere. I like using the middle 50% range of scores. The closer one is to the 75th percentile the better. The closer one is to the 25th percentile the weaker. If one's score is below that 25th percentile, then I would consider that a "weak score" *for that school* even if it is the 90th percentile nationally. I compared MIT and Princeton. The SAT total for the 25th percentile at MIT is 2090 and at Princeton 2120. They are made up rather differently as MIT's math scores are much higher. In fact, both their CR and Writing 25th percentile numbers start with 6's. Princeton's is more evenly divided among the three sections, and all start with a 7. The 25th percentile for MIT is a 32 and for Princeton a 31. So, I would say that a person applying to these schools with scores below those 25th percentiles would have "weak" scores. That's just my opinion. Obviously people get into these schools below those thresholds and people far above those thresholds get rejected. But, I would explain the reality of the numbers to a kid who was below that 25th percentile.

 

ETA: And I would explain the reality to ANYBODY that admission rates at an Ivy, or Stanford, or MIT, or CalTech are EXTREMELY low for everyone, just as you said 8Fill. There just isn't enough room for all the wonderfully bright and accomplished kids out there.

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Well, I'd say what is a "weak score" depends on the school! I say that often, don't I!

 

I'm going to answer with the use of a data point, which I know you don't like, 8FilltheHeart, but I don't know any other way to answer it - not that you are necessarily asking my opinion anyway. Lol! I like looking at those CDS numbers to get an idea of whether a child is in the ballpark at all. You get a kid with a high enough test score, and they are going to be in range anywhere. At that point, yes, I think there are MANY other factors involved. But you have to start somewhere. I like using the middle 50% range of scores. The closer one is to the 75th percentile the better. The closer one is to the 25th percentile the weaker. If one's score is below that 25th percentile, then I would consider that a "weak score" *for that school* even if it is the 90th percentile nationally. I compared MIT and Princeton. The SAT total for the 25th percentile at MIT is 2090 and at Princeton 2120. They are made up rather differently as MIT's math scores are much higher. In fact, both their CR and Writing 25th percentile numbers start with 6's. Princeton's is more evenly divided among the three sections, and all start with a 7. The 25th percentile for MIT is a 32 and for Princeton a 31. So, I would say that a person applying to these schools with scores below those 25th percentiles would have "weak" scores. That's just my opinion. Obviously people get into these schools below those thresholds and people far above those thresholds get rejected. But, I would explain the reality of the numbers to a kid who was below that 25th percentile.

 

ETA: And I would explain the reality to ANYBODY that admission rates at an Ivy, or Stanford, or MIT, or CalTech are EXTREMELY low for everyone, just as you said 8Fill. There just isn't enough room for all the wonderfully bright and accomplished kids out there.

Fwiw, I have zero problem with data pt sets. I am just pointing out that the scores are only a single reference pt and simply saying the 25-75 range is only part of the picture. if you look at MIT's website, the numbers actually tell an interesting story. http://mitadmissions.org/apply/process/stats

 

Just using math here......

750-800 Applied= 8512. Accepted= 1051. 13%

700-740 applied = 3011. Accepted= 231. 8%

 

If the scores were more important then the rest of the application, would those 7461 rejected students have been accepted before the 231? (MIT didn't list a similar breakdown for the composite score, but the distribution over CR and writing was fairly similar).

 

For the ACT composite, it looked like this:

 

34-36 Applied 2,914 accepted 384. 13%

31-33. Applied 2,347 accepted 178. 8%

28-30 Applied 1,037 accepted 47. 5%

 

While the 25-75% scores tell part of the story, I think the above gives a bigger picture. Every group has a large number of rejections. Is is as simple as saying that the score determines acceptance/rejection?

 

That is my only pt. fwiw, I don't want to give the impression that my ds's scores are low, bc they aren't. I just believe that the whole application is very important, not just the scores.

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Fwiw, I have zero problem with data pt sets. I am just pointing out that the scores are only a single reference pt and simply saying the 25-75 range is only part of the picture. if you look at MIT's website, the numbers actually tell an interesting story. http://mitadmissions.org/apply/process/stats

 

Just using math here......

750-800 Applied= 8512. Accepted= 1051. 13%

700-740 applied = 3011. Accepted= 231. 8%

 

If the scores were more important then the rest of the application, would those 7461 rejected students have been accepted before the 231? (MIT didn't list a similar breakdown for the composite score, but the distribution over CR and writing was fairly similar).

 

For the ACT composite, it looked like this:

 

34-36 Applied 2,914 accepted 384. 13%

31-33. Applied 2,347 accepted 178. 8%

28-30 Applied 1,037 accepted 47. 5%

 

While the 25-75% scores tell part of the story, I think the above gives a bigger picture. Every group has a large number of rejections. Is is as simple as saying that the score determines acceptance/rejection?

 

That is my only pt. fwiw, I don't want to give the impression that my ds's scores are low, bc they aren't. I just believe that the whole application is very important, not just the scores.

It is absolutely not as simple as saying that the score determines acceptance/rejection! The telling point is that, exactly as you said, every group has a large number of rejections. And, you are SO correct that the whole application is important!

 

For us, I am happy that there *are* schools that are numbers driven, because that is where my ds has received merit $. I like having those known to us NOW. We will pay full-freight at most of his other schools. Most of them do not offer any merit-based aid at all, and, even if they do, I don't think he would receive any. He'll be lucky just to be accepted!!! He's applied for any and all scholarships that they may have, but I am counting on full-pay at any school that is a top-20.

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but it should also be noted that - as it has frequently been reported on these boards - some of the "test optional" schools still require tests from homeschooled applicants.

Glad you pointed that out. Wish there were a "dislike" button for schools that take that stance. :/

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There are test optional schools out there.

 

 

but it should also be noted that - as it has frequently been reported on these boards - some of the "test optional" schools still require tests from homeschooled applicants.

 

and I recall hearing that some of the test optional schools still require a test (after acceptance) from all applicants for placement purposes.

 

Regards,

Kareni

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Three things I think it is worth remembering:

-Some families do as basic education what would be considered jumping through hoops in another family.

-Colleges compare apples to apples. As homeschooling oranges, we need to provide colleges with enough apple-ness to allow them to feel safe taking a chance on our unusual children.

-When colleges say they are looking for out-of-the-box thinkers (or some other unusualness), what they really mean is that they want that unusualness ON TOP OF well documented usual things not INSTEAD OF the usual things.

 

What constitutes a "hoop" is not the same for each student. For my homeschooled family, it was no big deal to take the PSAT twice and the SAT twice. This was not something any of us perceived as a "hoop". Yes, it was a bit inconvenient to have to devote the Saturdays (one child missed a family wedding) but other than that, it was no big deal. For mine to take community college classes or prep for and take APs or SAT2s tests would have been more of an inconvenience in terms of time and money. We were quite sure we needed to do at least one of those things for college admissions and decided to close a bunch of doors and just pick ONE of them. Once picked (cc classes), we did eight or twelve, trying to hit most major subjects so colleges would something they could use to compare our children to other students. But the point I want to make is that although we used the cc classes as a "hoop", it wasn't actually a hoop. My children took classes that they needed to take anyway for their education. We didn't prep them for AP classes. We chose to let them walk around in foreign countries instead. So in their case, community college classes were much more suitable than AP classes. They weren't headed for ivies anyway. Doing more of those things, doubling up by having them do both AP bio and cc bio 1 WOULD have been jumping through hoops for college admissions. The same goes for all those AP classes some students take. Yes, their guidance counselors probably have a magic number of APs in mind and steer students that way, but it isn't actually an inconvenience because the students have to take US history and calculus in any case. The same for the parents - although they have college admissions in the back of their mind, this is the education they want for their children whether they go on to Harvard or not. On the other hand, for a homeschooled student living in the boonies with no money who wants to apply to Harvard, trying to figure out a way to prep for and take AP calc rather than just taking the ACT and working through his Dad's old calculus book at home IS jumping through hoops just for college admissions.

 

Most of what seems like jumping through hoops to homeschoolers is just colleges trying to find enough commonality in their students that they can compare them. The burden is on the applicants to show colleges that they are academically prepared and able to complete the degree, and that they will contribute something interesting to their fellow students. The more selective colleges count on students to educate each other as much as on their classes. I know one of the reasons we wanted youngest at the school he is at is because of who his fellow students would be. (Horrible sentence - sorry lol - but you get the idea.)

 

I have seen more than one homeschooling IRL aquaintance become excited about a college because the website admissions page is full of rhetoric about wanting unusual students. They are sure that this (very selective) college will want their student because their student is indeed very unusual. What they don't understand is that colleges want that unusualness IN ADDITION TO all the usual good-student stuff - the high test scores and high grades in calculus, four years of foreign language, bio, chem, physics, etc. There are schools out there that will take students who have unusual educations, but they only will take them if they have concrete proof that they are able to manage high level ACADEMIC learning.

 

Muttichen's family's formula for being accepted to the ivies does these things. It provides the schools with a way to compare her unusual unusual children with the other applicants, assurance that her students can handle high level academics, and outside proof that they are unusual human beings (international competition) who will add interest to their class and bring prestige to their alma mater in the future. (And as she said, that education is what she would probably have done anyway with her children, so it doesn't really seem like "hoops". Instead, it is just a familiar education.) We tend to think of colleges as taking students and TURNING THEM INTO highly educated unusual people, but the highly selective colleges have so many applicants that they can afford to BEGIN with highly educated unusual people. If you want to send your child to a school like that, you have to prove to the school that your child is highly educated and unusual. Academically educated, not just hands-on educated. And that means that if your child has worked alone and avoided things like testing, international competitions, and outside classes, it is probably worth thinking about how you as the guidance counselor are going to give schools some way of comparing your student's academic abilities to all those of all the other appliants. Otherwise, they may decide to accept a less risky applicant. This applies to some extent to non-ivies as well, unless they are they are open-enrollment.

 

This whole post sounds very unsympathetic to the wait-listed or deferred or rejected. I don't mean it that way at all. All three of my children set their hearts on one unusual college and we had to go through the process of hoping that they got in. One was deferred. It is heart-wrenching. I just think that as homeschoolers, there are a lot of misconceptions about how college admissions works. It isn't all just marketing and money (although that naturally enters in). Some of it has to do with how hard it is to compare a homeschooled student to regular ones, how risky it is to accept a homeschooled student, and how we misread the advertizing information. And it isn't a fair system. It never was. It probably never will be. Even a system that accepts students only on their academic merits fails to take into account late bloomers.

 

Hugs to everyone,

 

Nan

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I have seen more than one homeschooling IRL aquaintance become excited about a college because the website admissions page is full of rhetoric about wanting unusual students. They are sure that this (very selective) college will want their student because their student is indeed very unusual. What they don't understand is that colleges want that unusualness IN ADDITION TO all the usual good-student stuff - the high test scores and high grades in calculus, four years of foreign language, bio, chem, physics, etc. There are schools out there that will take students who have unusual educations, but they only will take them if they have concrete proof that they are able to manage high level ACADEMIC learning.

 

 

This was my attitude too.  Universities seem to have been really pleased to see Calvin's unusual background (home education, living abroad, poetry competitions) but without the exams it would, I think, have seemed a bit loosey-goosey to them.

 

L

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-When colleges say they are looking for out-of-the-box thinkers (or some other unusualness), what they really mean is that they want that unusualness ON TOP OF well documented usual things not INSTEAD OF the usual things.

 

 

I agree with this statement 99%. I'm sure there are students who could get into college based solely on their NYT best selling novel, Olympian status, Carnegie Hall performance, or Intel Science award; however, such would not be the case for most out of the box students.

 

My daughter also jumped through a number of hoops for college admission (SAT subject tests, for example); however, the colleges she applied to generally required testing of all applicants, not just of homeschoolers, so the requirement did not seem unfair to her or to us.

 

Regards,

Kareni

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Three things I think it is worth remembering:

-Some families do as basic education what would be considered jumping through hoops in another family.

-Colleges compare apples to apples. As homeschooling oranges, we need to provide colleges with enough apple-ness to allow them to feel safe taking a chance on our unusual children.

-When colleges say they are looking for out-of-the-box thinkers (or some other unusualness), what they really mean is that they want that unusualness ON TOP OF well documented usual things not INSTEAD OF the usual things.

 

What constitutes a "hoop" is not the same for each student. For my homeschooled family, it was no big deal to take the PSAT twice and the SAT twice. This was not something any of us perceived as a "hoop". Yes, it was a bit inconvenient to have to devote the Saturdays (one child missed a family wedding) but other than that, it was no big deal. For mine to take community college classes or prep for and take APs or SAT2s tests would have been more of an inconvenience in terms of time and money. We were quite sure we needed to do at least one of those things for college admissions and decided to close a bunch of doors and just pick ONE of them. Once picked (cc classes), we did eight or twelve, trying to hit most major subjects so colleges would something they could use to compare our children to other students. But the point I want to make is that although we used the cc classes as a "hoop", it wasn't actually a hoop. My children took classes that they needed to take anyway for their education. We didn't prep them for AP classes. We chose to let them walk around in foreign countries instead. So in their case, community college classes were much more suitable than AP classes. They weren't headed for ivies anyway. Doing more of those things, doubling up by having them do both AP bio and cc bio 1 WOULD have been jumping through hoops for college admissions. The same goes for all those AP classes some students take. Yes, their guidance counselors probably have a magic number of APs in mind and steer students that way, but it isn't actually an inconvenience because the students have to take US history and calculus in any case. The same for the parents - although they have college admissions in the back of their mind, this is the education they want for their children whether they go on to Harvard or not. On the other hand, for a homeschooled student living in the boonies with no money who wants to apply to Harvard, trying to figure out a way to prep for and take AP calc rather than just taking the ACT and working through his Dad's old calculus book at home IS jumping through hoops just for college admissions.

 

Most of what seems like jumping through hoops to homeschoolers is just colleges trying to find enough commonality in their students that they can compare them. The burden is on the applicants to show colleges that they are academically prepared and able to complete the degree, and that they will contribute something interesting to their fellow students. The more selective colleges count on students to educate each other as much as on their classes. I know one of the reasons we wanted youngest at the school he is at is because of who his fellow students would be. (Horrible sentence - sorry lol - but you get the idea.)

 

I have seen more than one homeschooling IRL aquaintance become excited about a college because the website admissions page is full of rhetoric about wanting unusual students. They are sure that this (very selective) college will want their student because their student is indeed very unusual. What they don't understand is that colleges want that unusualness IN ADDITION TO all the usual good-student stuff - the high test scores and high grades in calculus, four years of foreign language, bio, chem, physics, etc. There are schools out there that will take students who have unusual educations, but they only will take them if they have concrete proof that they are able to manage high level ACADEMIC learning.

 

Muttichen's family's formula for being accepted to the ivies does these things. It provides the schools with a way to compare her unusual unusual children with the other applicants, assurance that her students can handle high level academics, and outside proof that they are unusual human beings (international competition) who will add interest to their class and bring prestige to their alma mater in the future. (And as she said, that education is what she would probably have done anyway with her children, so it doesn't really seem like "hoops". Instead, it is just a familiar education.) We tend to think of colleges as taking students and TURNING THEM INTO highly educated unusual people, but the highly selective colleges have so many applicants that they can afford to BEGIN with highly educated unusual people. If you want to send your child to a school like that, you have to prove to the school that your child is highly educated and unusual. Academically educated, not just hands-on educated. And that means that if your child has worked alone and avoided things like testing, international competitions, and outside classes, it is probably worth thinking about how you as the guidance counselor are going to give schools some way of comparing your student's academic abilities to all those of all the other appliants. Otherwise, they may decide to accept a less risky applicant. This applies to some extent to non-ivies as well, unless they are they are open-enrollment.

 

This whole post sounds very unsympathetic to the wait-listed or deferred or rejected. I don't mean it that way at all. All three of my children set their hearts on one unusual college and we had to go through the process of hoping that they got in. One was deferred. It is heart-wrenching. I just think that as homeschoolers, there are a lot of misconceptions about how college admissions works. It isn't all just marketing and money (although that naturally enters in). Some of it has to do with how hard it is to compare a homeschooled student to regular ones, how risky it is to accept a homeschooled student, and how we misread the advertizing information. And it isn't a fair system. It never was. It probably never will be. Even a system that accepts students only on their academic merits fails to take into account late bloomers.

 

Hugs to everyone,

 

Nan

Love this post, Nan. I think it also demonstrates that we need to have an idea near the beginning of high school what sort of approach our students are going to take and what those decisions mean. Some decisions mean our students won't be really qualified to apply to certain schools if we decide to not follow certain guidelines bc they are sort of like a delineation mark.

 

That does not mean those decisions are wrong. They are simply choices that lead to alternative paths for individual preferences. Sort of like we need to be comfortable in the clothes we live in. I am a blue jean, t-shirt, sandals, pony tail kind of person. I could never be a glamorous woman in high heels. It is so not me. It is really a choice though. My oldest dd, otoh, is 100% opposite. She is high heels, stylish, and polish queen. ;) When we go shopping together, we both leave with what we want, but we do our shopping in different parts of the store. But, we both leave happy.

 

Different schools are definitely geared toward different students. We need to make sure our students are aware of how the choices influence those options, but they also need to know that there are options that fit them. Taking the pony tail path and trying to fit into the glamour school are decisions that are going to probably lead to an unsettling sr yr experience. ;)

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I should have added something to my post - If your student was deferred or rejected or wait-listed, you can keep in mind the possibility that the student met the qualifications needed to attend that school and the deferring or rejecting was because the school either was unsure about that or because the school considers homeschoolers (including your student) more risky and doesn't want to admit many of them, in case they don't work out.

 

This was true in our case with the deferral.  The engineering school said they wanted my son but felt unable to admit him until they had seen his fall semester physics and calc grades.  We couldn't really blame them.  If they hadn't specifically said that, I would have assumed that they had decided my son was not a good enough candidate that they wanted to admit him early action, before they had seen all the rest of the candidates, but that all might still be well in the end, provided there weren't too many extra fabulous regular decision candidates.

 

Nan

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