For all those rejection/deferred/wait-listed receivers

[8filltheheart]

Someone sent me this article link. I thought others might appreciate it. I have no idea if it has been shared or discussed in the past or not.

 

http://www.reed.edu/apply/news_and_articles/admission_messages.html

[Laura in CA]

Thank you for that article, 8Fill. I hadn't seen it before.

 

Here are two more that I have found helpful (and very moving):

 

Young, Gifted, and Not Getting Into Harvard by Michael Winerip

 

On Being Unchosen by the College of One's Choice by Joan Didion

 

 

 

 

[8filltheheart]

I had a long reply typed out when my iPad died. :( but, those are two jaded articles about the process. My ds's vested reaction is at least limited to the amt of time he has spent writing his essays and pouring his real love and enthusiasm into them exposed for the readers to see. At least my ds has the consolation of never having made decisions for how they would look on a transcript and that his transcript is authentic him. (Well, other than a couple of Saturdays taking subject tests). Like I have shared with you before, he would never applied to SSP if we had read CC SSP threads before submitting the application. Those kids are intense and targeted.

 

I am definitely isolated from the world of grooming and constant prepping. I guess it is bc it was the walk through the door and take the test approach when I was in high school. We are very state university type people and I am a first generation college student. So, the high stakes roller coaster from our perspective hasn't been focused on actual admissions but purely on cost!!! Guess we got it backwards!!

 

I hope your ds gets a few more amazing acceptances, but you both already know he is amazing just being who he is.

[regentrude]

To be honest: I found the articles utterly discouraging and not inspiring or helpful at all.

OK, so it's not the student but the school. Not much help if you don't belong to a "category".

It still translates into "they did not consider me good enough". Whatever "good enough" means.

 

I do agree that parents play an important role in balancing the impact for their children. But I do hate the entire process and what it does to students.

[8filltheheart]

Regentrude, what I took from the article that I linked was that it is a huge marketing game and bait and switch to a certain degree. I thought the mass marketing and then complete silence was an indictment of how the game is played on their part.

[regentrude]

I also found the claims in the Reed article

 

 

At the risk of redundancy, I need to say again that there are no random or arbitrary decisions in selective college admissions. Every decision is discussed, sometimes again, and again, and again.

 

to be in stark contrast with this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/04/education/edlife/lifting-the-veil-on-the-holistic-process-at-the-university-of-california-berkeley.html?_r=0

 

which seems to be incredibly random. Sure, they discuss and discuss, but the criteria seem to be rather opaque, so that the outcomes are quite random.

If anything, this is the most frustrating aspect of the game: you're trying to hit a moving target that is invisible. Throughout the process, DD kept saying, if they told her it takes xyz to get in, she'd do xyz. But nobody wants to let you know what xyz is, and the people who decide seem to have no clear idea what it is either.

[8filltheheart]

I think it boils down to pretty much 100x more kids than available seats are doing precisely x,y,z and so how to decide amg all the kids that have everything it takes and why this one over that one is the moving target.

 

I have broken all my own rules for myself and have spent time pursuing CC. Now that he has finished applying and is simply waiting I can read it with a different perspective than before now. When reading through the threads, I can see part of wht the Rice article was saying if you look at the segmented population for some groups. It definitely does appear that some students are competing against the select group that meets specific criteria. International,students appear to have the hardest selectivity bc they are being narrowed through the filter of themelves vs. themselves for x spots. So,while they may be 100x more qualified than a large number of American applicants, it really boils down to how did they compare against the other international applicants.

 

Other parts do seem less clear. The kids on CC (adults, too) seem totally fixated on test score stats. I don't think that is the main determining factor for these schools. The stats themselves don't seem to distinguish that way. I really don't know how they decide bc when you look at the accepted/deferred/rejected postings, some of them on the surface don't make sense. I have no idea, but I think the LOR, essays, activities/leadership, and individual courses taken in comparison to your segmented group with each of those having some % weight is more important once you surpass some test score base filter.

[Janice in NJ]

Good Morning,

 

For me, the Berkeley article offers the greatest insight into what is really going on in the belly of the beast.  

 

Berkeley: Accepted 11,130/61,731

 

How can you handle 61K+ applications?  You MUST enlist the help of computer programmers and statisticians.  You have no choice.  Otherwise, the process becomes completely unwieldy.  We have such faith and trust in data.  It makes us feel like our choices are justified. 

 

So I run the admissions department.  61k+ students submit their data.  My job?  To enhance their data by generating 61K+ interim data points that will justify the system output which basically boils down to 11,000 "Yes!" answers from the flow chart and 50,000 "No" answers from the flow chart.  

 

And let's not forget that of those 11,000 students that receive a "Yes!" letter, 7,000 of them will say "Nope!" to me.  A few more than 4,000 of the kids accepted actually enrolled, but that's an entirely separate data modeling software program.  The outputs of the first program became inputs and generate estimates that told me how many of those kids would enroll - on average - very important if I'm going to keep my job.  I can't have ALL of those 11K kids actually enrolling; I would get fired.  I have to accept a bunch of kids that won't actually enroll because of an entirely separate ranking process that makes other folks on campus happy.  Separate program.  I've run the numbers.  The software ensures me that I will keep my job and far less than half of the accepted will attend.  I worry, but I trust the model.

 

Back to the acceptance process.  Generating those interim data fields.  THAT's the part of the process that really bugs me.  Think about it for a minute.  Berkeley prides itself on accepting and educating kids that think outside the box.  Or at least they give that impression.  Actually?  Where did we get that impression that outliers were valuable?  In reality, if you want to keep your job as a "reader" in admissions, your goal is to get as CLOSE to center as possible.  IOW, you are not looking to BE an outlier.  You are looking to find outliers that ALL readers agree are outliers.  You can't see people as people, you must view them as data points.  And you are not allowed to read their applications - not really "read" in the way we think about reading; your job is to turn the non-numerical parts of the application into numbers.  For the computer program.  The program can only sort numbers.  And the numbers you generate are going to be tested against the numbers generated by your peers.  If you fail to match the interim data points generated by your peers, you will lose your job in admissions.  

 

Feel the stranglehold yet?  You should.

 

The readers are not looking for gems.  No treasure hunt.  The readers are looking for safe bets - things that others are easily spotting.  (And remember, they are under a time crunch.  They have to produce X number of completed applications per hour.  NO room for nuanced anything.  This is an assembly line, folks - the place where innovation and creativity goes to DIE!)  

 

I doubt the software offers a "yea, but" field where the reader is allowed to explore their gut.  "This is why I think this student deserves another look.  I get it.  The interim data points are saying 3, 4, 5.  That's because of the way the questions were framed.  Yes, this student logs a '3' in data field 27b.  However, there is no field that allows me to enter the seven 1's this student should be receiving.  WE SHOULD RECONSIDER THIS APPLICATION BECAUSE OF THESE REASONS!"  

 

There is no place to type that.  

 

So the student is rejected.

 

Because the adults who know better just want to keep their jobs.

 

And the only way to change the process is to change the questions for the interim data fields, and that would involve committees and programming expenses.  And research to see how those fields should be weighted in the final calculation based on future estimates of alumni giving and other metrics that matter to other departments.  

 

A ton of work.  

 

It's easier to just fill in the 3's, 4's, and 5's and move on.

 

Why fight for something that doesn't really matter.  After all, I'm just a poor graduate student who is going to need the part time job again next year, and then I will move onto something else.  I might tell the story to my kid if they ever get rejected, but other than that, it doesn't matter.

 

Except when your kid is the outlier who gets rejected.

 

My advice?  Try not to let the statistician's arrow poison.  After all, those folks who are running these admissions departments crave the safety of the interior of the bell curve.  They long for the warmth of the white space.  They fear the edges where the two lines start to merge as the tracks start to threaten to cross.  (What actually would happen if the curve went below the line?  Impossible?  Says who?  Draw it and see what happens.  Harold knew all about that when he chose the purple crayon.  I digress!)  Admissions TOLD your kid to be an outlier.  But they didn't mean it.  When they say "outlier", they actually mean something else.  Very often, that list includes a TON of things you can't control.

 

If you KNEW that, you wouldn't have joined the fray.  (Let's not forget that the application fee ($70 a pop) generates millions of dollars which helps offset the cost of running the department.  Another major consideration if you are an adult who wants to keep her job.)

 

Move on.  Encourage your kids to focus on the things they can control.  

 

Contentment?  Happiness?  Excitement about the years to come?  A couple of thing that come to mind.

 

I'm sure you all have thought of others.  :-)

 

I feel your pain, ladies.  Sending warm hugs for an amazing job.  Well done!  You have taught your children how to be special through your example.  Don't doubt yourself now.  Push through.  Be outliers.  And be happy doing it!!!!  :-)  (Psst…...  I KNOW that you know this.  I'm just saying it in order to help build up critical mass on that side of the see-saw in your brain that is analyzing this whole process.  Feel the warmth and respect in that statement as you place my sentiments in your corner.  Sending HUGS and RESPECT your way!)

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey 

[Teachin'Mine]

Janice from accounts I've read, including the one you posted from UC Berkeley, it seems that the larger state universities tend to use the stats almost exclusively and privates tend to take more time and look at applicants in a more holistic way and actually read the applications.   I agree that it would be pointless to make high school all about fitting the mold, whatever that is, and should be about the students doing what they enjoy.   The more highly selective programs they apply for, the more rejections they're likely to get.  It's part of the process. 

[regentrude]

Janice from accounts I've read, including the one you posted from UC Berkley, it seems that the larger state universities tend to use the stats almost exclusively and privates tend to take more time and look at applicants in a more holistic way and actually read the applications.

 

But then, there is a factor of 10 or more in the admissions rates between large state schools and selective private schools. It makes a huge difference whether a school admits 50%-80% or 6% of the applicants. It seems to me quite feasible to pick the top half (or more) of applicants based on stats (for example by simply having a minimum score requirement) - whereas it takes great scrutiny to select 6 out of 100 high performing students whose high  stats are pretty much identical, allowing no differentiation.

 

[Brenda in MA]

But then, there is a factor of 10 or more in the admissions rates between large state schools and selective private schools. It makes a huge difference whether a school admits 50%-80% or 6% of the applicants. It seems to me quite feasible to pick the top half (or more) of applicants based on stats (for example by simply having a minimum score requirement) - whereas it takes great scrutiny to select 6 out of 100 high performing students whose high  stats are pretty much identical, allowing no differentiation.

I agree, and I think this is why admissions at the top schools seem so random to us observers. I suspect that the actual admissions criteria change from year to year depending on what the school's needs are for that particular Freshman class. Since we are outside the system, we can't know what the focus is for this year, and looking at last year's or the year before's data doesn't really do us any good in trying to figure out how to prepare our student to have a very good chance for admission.

 

My take on the whole process is that from within the system, it is not very random at all. These top schools have so many spaces reserved for athletes, URM, trombone players, kids who want to major in their more obscure departments, people who can pay the entire cost w/o scholarships, etc. -- and these things change from year to year and are out of the control of us and our students.

 

I think the best you can do is make your student aware of how the system works and how unlikely their chance of success is at some of the top schools. I know it's hard to be deferred or rejected, but they need to understand not to take it personally because it's likely due to something not in their control.

 

Brenda

[regentrude]

 I suspect that the actual admissions criteria change from year to year depending on what the school's needs are for that particular Freshman class. Since we are outside the system, we can't know what the focus is for this year, and looking at last year's or the year before's data doesn't really do us any good in trying to figure out how to prepare our student to have a very good chance for admission.

 

That's precisely what I meant by "trying to hit a moving invisible target" :-)

[Teachin'Mine]

But then, there is a factor of 10 or more in the admissions rates between large state schools and selective private schools. It makes a huge difference whether a school admits 50%-80% or 6% of the applicants. It seems to me quite feasible to pick the top half (or more) of applicants based on stats (for example by simply having a minimum score requirement) - whereas it takes great scrutiny to select 6 out of 100 high performing students whose high  stats are pretty much identical, allowing no differentiation.

 

 

Absolutely, but for UC Berkeley, it has an 18% admissions rate which is quite selective.

[Laura Corin]

But then, there is a factor of 10 or more in the admissions rates between large state schools and selective private schools. It makes a huge difference whether a school admits 50%-80% or 6% of the applicants. It seems to me quite feasible to pick the top half (or more) of applicants based on stats (for example by simply having a minimum score requirement) - whereas it takes great scrutiny to select 6 out of 100 high performing students whose high  stats are pretty much identical, allowing no differentiation.

 

 

Just for comparison:  Oxford and Cambridge use the following process -

 

They receive applications including a personal statement (essay), results of exams taken previously and recommendations from the school.  The personal statement is largely academic, talking about aspects of the courses taken at school that particularly intrigued the applicant, or personal research undertaken.  It might mention some personal (academic) achievement, but leadership/extracurricular aspects are a very small part of the essay, if present at all.  Calvin spent about 1/8th of the space talking about his non-academic interests.

 

The universities also set extra subject-based exams that are set at a higher level than standard school exams - the student takes them at his/her own school and they are then sent to the university.  In addition, the student sends in one or more pieces of work that have been marked/graded by the school - this allows the university to assess the standard of teaching at the school to get some idea of how much help/coaching has been going on.  If all this is satisfactory, the applicant is called for academic interview by the actual lecturers at the actual college.  For Calvin's course, about 80% of applicants were called for interview.  He spent five days in Oxford and had five different interviews spread over two colleges.

 

The interview is highly academic, involving (for English) analysing a piece of poetry not seen before.  The course includes one-on-one tutorials, so the university wants to see what leaps and swoops the student can make when in conversation with one of the leading experts in the field.

 

For Calvin's course, 25% (roughly) of applicants are admitted.  There are about 18,000 applicants overall for 3,500 undergraduate places at Oxford.  The admissions process is handled by individual subject departments within each of the university's colleges.

 

So the target is very well-defined: academic ability, original thought and the ability to express.  That's it.

 

L

[regentrude]

Just for comparison:  Oxford and Cambridge use the following process -

 

They receive applications including a personal statement (essay), results of exams taken previously and recommendations from the school.  The personal statement is largely academic, talking about aspects of the courses taken at school that particularly intrigued the applicant, or personal research undertaken.  It might mention some personal (academic) achievement, but leadership/extracurricular aspects are a very small part of the essay, if present at all.  Calvin spent about 1/8th of the space talking about his non-academic interests.

 

The universities also set extra subject-based exams that are set at a higher level than standard school exams - the student takes them at his/her own school and they are then sent to the university.  In addition, the student sends in one or more pieces of work that have been marked/graded by the school - this allows the university to assess the standard of teaching at the school to get some idea of how much help/coaching has been going on.  If all this is satisfactory, the applicant is called for academic interview by the actual lecturers at the actual college.  For Calvin's course, about 80% of applicants were called for interview.  He spent five days in Oxford and had five different interviews spread over two colleges.

 

The interview is highly academic, involving (for English) analysing a piece of poetry not seen before.  The course includes one-on-one tutorials, so the university wants to see what leaps and swoops the student can make when in conversation with one of the leading experts in the field.

 

For Calvin's course, 25% (roughly) of applicants are admitted.  There are about 18,000 applicants overall for 3,500 undergraduate places at Oxford.  The admissions process is handled by individual subject departments within each of the university's colleges.

 

So the target is very well-defined: academic ability, original thought and the ability to express.  That's it.

 

Love it. Clear-cut and to the point and based on academic merit.

No second guessing whether you have the "right" extracurriculars or geographic location or socioeconomic background.

 

[Laura Corin]

Love it. Clear-cut and to the point and based on academic merit.

No second guessing whether you have the "right" extracurriculars or geographic location or socioeconomic background.

 

 

Send your children to college over here!  Oxford costs £9,000 p.a. in tuition for EU citizens....

 

L

[8filltheheart]

Send your children to college over here!  Oxford costs £9,000 p.a. in tuition for EU citizens....

 

L

 

I actually looked into for ds, but the list of APs, etc that they wanted from American students was beyond what ds had.   But, I read a story today about a person whose ds has been granted conditional acceptance to Cambridge (conditional on STEP  scores) without the APs and hoops (and with a very lopsided pretty much just math-focused high school education.)

[Teachin'Mine]

Laura, do they provide financial assistance for the EU students who can't afford the tuition?

[Teachin'Mine]

It may be better in some ways, but it can't be forgotten that all is in the balance based on one test.  I know that several here don't like AP courses because the year's work is evaluated in one test.  Imagine a whole high school education?   I'm sure Calvin will ace it, but not all will, and you find that out in July.   :svengo:

[8filltheheart]

I am assuming that what Laura quoted to Regentrude is different b/c she is German.   I just looked and what I saw as costs were over double that.....£20,790 tuition and £5,000 to £6,500 for fees.   Yikes.  (oops that was for Cambridge, not Oxford.   This what I found for Oxford:  In 2010, international student fees are £12,200-£14,000 tuition and fee of £5,692 per year. No idea what they are now for 2014....too lazy to click on another link. )

 

The $$ aspect is what is going to end up making the decisions for our ds.   It is looking like UA is more than likely going to be where he goes.   No surprise to us, but he didn't make it to the interview round for the Presidential at GA Tech.   Nor did he for the Parks at NCSU.    Even with a large scholarship to CWRU, it is still out of our range.   He is submitting more material for more opportunities there.   But, again, probably unlikely. 

[Muttichen]

That's precisely what I meant by "trying to hit a moving invisible target" :-)

 

Yes, but there are some things that they are always looking for.  First, stats to get into the group they're looking at -- SAT scores, etc. Second, a rigorous high school curriculum -- we did 8-12 APs.  Third -- some kind of national-level award -- ISEF, USAMO, Siemens, etc.  Fourth -- something that makes you "diverse" -- for us, it's homeschooling.  Our kids also had an internship, strong recommendations, sports, etc.   

 

So far, we've had four apply to top schools and they've all gotten in (not every kid to every school, but all to at least one top-tier Ivy).  So there is a target that is hittable. :)

 

ETA -- I know students who have done some amazing volunteer work or entrepreneurial endeavor instead of national competitions.  There is more than one way to stand out to the admissions committee, but you do need to stand out from a group of extremely accomplished kids.

[Laura Corin]

I actually looked into for ds, but the list of APs, etc that they wanted from American students was beyond what ds had.   But, I read a story today about a person whose ds has been granted conditional acceptance to Cambridge (conditional on STEP  scores) without the APs and hoops (and with a very lopsided pretty much just math-focused high school education.)

 

Lopsided doesn't matter in Britain.  Someone in England who is applying for maths would have specialised in maths and maybe physics and geography a couple of years before applying.

 

L

[Laura Corin]

Laura, do they provide financial assistance for the EU students who can't afford the tuition?

 

I don't think so, but you should check - you would also have to see if the European country concerned provided aid.

 

L

[Laura Corin]

It may be better in some ways, but it can't be forgotten that all is in the balance based on one test.  I know that several here don't like AP courses because the year's work is evaluated in one test.  Imagine a whole high school education?   I'm sure Calvin will ace it, but not all will, and you find that out in July.   :svengo:

 

Not quite - he has already completed an extended essay and some coursework, all of which contribute to that final mark.  The first two years of high school are also examined separately - it was those scores that got him the interview at Oxford.

 

L

[Laura Corin]

I am assuming that what Laura quoted to Regentrude is different b/c she is German.   I just looked and what I saw as costs were over double that.....£20,790 tuition and £5,000 to £6,500 for fees.   Yikes.  (oops that was for Cambridge, not Oxford.   This what I found for Oxford:  In 2010, international student fees are £12,200-£14,000 tuition and fee of £5,692 per year. No idea what they are now for 2014....too lazy to click on another link. )

 

The $$ aspect is what is going to end up making the decisions for our ds.   It is looking like UA is more than likely going to be where he goes.   No surprise to us, but he didn't make it to the interview round for the Presidential at GA Tech.   Nor did he for the Parks at NCSU.    Even with a large scholarship to CWRU, it is still out of our range.   He is submitting more material for more opportunities there.   But, again, probably unlikely. 

 

Yes - there is a reciprocal agreement within the EU that makes it cheaper for EU citizens.  The total cost for Oxford for non-EU foreigners is 21,000 - there are extra fees on top of the £14,000.

 

L

[Teachin'Mine]

Laura thanks for explaining about the exams.   I was just trying to point out that there are pros and cons to college admission on both sides of the pond.   I did some searching, which I should have done first, :tongue_smilie:  and Oxford is very generous with aid and loans to lower income UK students.   It seems this is fairly new since 2012 or so to try to attract more students from lower SES.   What is really impressive is the low cost for repayment of loans after graduation. 

[regentrude]

Send your children to college over here!  Oxford costs £9,000 p.a. in tuition for EU citizens....

 

 

We had briefly considered the option and then decided against it because of the tutorial system at the British universities. While this is a great and very effective way of teaching, we felt that our very extroverted DD would prefer a traditional classroom setup with larger groups of students - that's what she loves about college here.

[Laura Corin]

We had briefly considered the option and then decided against it because of the tutorial system at the British universities. While this is a great and very effective way of teaching, we felt that our very extroverted DD would prefer a traditional classroom setup with larger groups of students - that's what she loves about college here.

 

FWIW, the one-on-one system only obtains at Oxford and Cambridge, as far as I know.  Other excellent universities use seminars of five or more students, plus lectures.

 

L

[Hoggirl]

It may be better in some ways, but it can't be forgotten that all is in the balance based on one test. I know that several here don't like AP courses because the year's work is evaluated in one test. Imagine a whole high school education? I'm sure Calvin will ace it, but not all will, and you find that out in July. :svengo:

An entire law school education is based on one test. Becoming a CPA is based on one test. These are the two areas with which I am familiar. I have no idea what types of final, evaluative tests exist for other professions such as those within the healthcare fields. And, yes, I realize the two with which I am familiar are tests to obtain licenses.

 

I know there are many who debate the merits (or lack thereof) of large, cumulative, standardized tests. I also know that there are many worthwhile careers and endeavors that one can do in life that do not require the passing of an exam. But there are certain fields and professions in which massive amounts of material studied over a period of several years are evaluated in one test. I'm not sure what could serve as an alternative.

[Teachin'Mine]

An entire law school education is based on one test. Becoming a CPA is based on one test. These are the two areas with which I am familiar. I have no idea what types of final, evaluative tests exist for other professions such as those within the healthcare fields. And, yes, I realize the two with which I am familiar are tests to obtain licenses.

 

I know there are many who debate the merits (or lack thereof) of large, cumulative, standardized tests. I also know that there are many worthwhile careers and endeavors that one can do in life that do not require the passing of an exam. But there are certain fields and professions in which massive amounts of material studied over a period of several years are evaluated in one test. I'm not sure what could serve as an alternative.

 

A doctor, lawyer, architect, nurse, etc. needing to pass a test is a very good thing!   

 

We could say that here admission does often depend on SAT/ACT testing, but the tests are offered several times during the year and can be repeated for improvement.  One test given on one day puts a lot more weight on the testing ability of the student on that one particular day.   I was just pointing out that as Regentrude and others were praising the UK system, some of them choose not to do AP tests because they wanted to avoid having the results depend on just one AP test.   Sometimes we can see only the green grass and overlook some weeds.  Poor analogy I'm sure.  lol   Just about everything has pros and cons.

 

As for me, I would find the waiting until July for results to be very difficult.  I'm glad we know here usually by March or April and can make a decision by May 1st.  At least that gives a bit more time for planning.  JMO. 

[Caroline]

And all those people--lawyer, doctor, nurse, etc.--can take the test multiple times.

 

A doctor, lawyer, architect, nurse, etc. needing to pass a test is a very good thing!

 

We could say that here admission does often depend on SAT/ACT testing, but the tests are offered several times during the year and can be repeated for improvement. One test given on one day puts a lot more weight on the testing ability of the student on that one particular day. I was just pointing out that as Regentrude and others were praising the UK system, some of them choose not to do AP tests because they wanted to avoid having the results depend on just one AP test. Sometimes we can see only the green grass and overlook some weeds. Poor analogy I'm sure. lol Just about everything has pros and cons.

 

As for me, I would find the waiting until July for results to be very difficult. I'm glad we know here usually by March or April and can make a decision by May 1st. At least that gives a bit more time for planning. JMO.

[regentrude]

   I was just pointing out that as Regentrude and others were praising the UK system, some of them choose not to do AP tests because they wanted to avoid having the results depend on just one AP test.   Sometimes we can see only the green grass and overlook some weeds.

 

Just to clarify: we have opted not to go the AP route because for admissions decisions there seemed to be no clearly discernible advantage of APs over taking courses at a four year university. We were choosing between equivalent options the, for us, preferable one.

If the admission rules were clearly "You will get into XYZ University if you get great scores on 10 AP tests", you can bet that my DD would have done those ten AP tests.

 

As for me, I would find the waiting until July for results to be very difficult.  I'm glad we know here usually by March or April and can make a decision by May 1st.  At least that gives a bit more time for planning.  JMO.

 

A bit more, but not a whole lot. Michaelmas term in Oxford does not start until Mid-October.

 

[creekland]

An entire law school education is based on one test. Becoming a CPA is based on one test. These are the two areas with which I am familiar. I have no idea what types of final, evaluative tests exist for other professions such as those within the healthcare fields. And, yes, I realize the two with which I am familiar are tests to obtain licenses.

 

 

 

Add Civil Engineering.  I remember the hours hubby spent studying to get his PE.  The stuff he was doing daily on the job was no problem, but the test covered a whole lot more.  Actually, one needs to pass another test (EIT) to get started as an engineer too - then needs some time on the job and recommendations before they can even take the PE test.

 

For those who are "poor testers" life is not quite as open.  I know some who really work at perfecting being able to take a test (working on nerves, etc) rather than fall into the "poor tester" category.  It seems like a worthwhile thing for certain job plans or even many college finals.  We worked tests into our homeschool on a regular basis as part of learning, but we don't solely teach to a test.

[Teachin'Mine]

Just to clarify: we have opted not to go the AP route because for admissions decisions there seemed to be no clearly discernible advantage of APs over taking courses at a four year university. We were choosing between equivalent options the, for us, preferable one.

If the admission rules were clearly "You will get into XYZ University if you get great scores on 10 AP tests", you can bet that my DD would have done those ten AP tests.

 

 

A bit more, but not a whole lot. Michaelmas term in Oxford does not start until Mid-October.

 

 

 

In reading Oxford's academic calendar, I'd hardly know it's in English as the terminology is so different from ours.  The full term starts mid-October, but the regular term starts Oct 1.  No idea what the difference is.  But yes, they do start later in the year.

 

 

[Hoggirl]

Just to clarify: we have opted not to go the AP route because for admissions decisions there seemed to be no clearly discernible advantage of APs over taking courses at a four year university. We were choosing between equivalent options the, for us, preferable one.

If the admission rules were clearly "You will get into XYZ University if you get great scores on 10 AP tests", you can bet that my DD would have done those ten AP tests.

 

 

 

Yes, wouldn't it be nice if the rules were clear!!

 

I think circumstances, logistics, and personal preferences play into these decisions significantly. Access to a four-year university is a great resource for homeschoolers. My understanding is that it can also be challenging for homeschoolers to find schools willing to administer AP exams. I wonder if it might be easier to compromise entrance as a freshman if one has too many university courses. We had a friend whose daughter would have had 45 hours of AP credit. She had to give up 15 hours of those in order to qualify as an entering freshman. She simply chose what she wanted credit for. I don't know how that plays out if one has 45 hours of four-year university courses. Seems like one would be considered a transfer student, but I don't know.

 

I do think admissions folks are used to seeing lots of applicants with lots of APs. No idea how that compares with someone who has no APs, but does have university courses. Which is exactly what you are saying! There's no way to know. I would think quantity might play into it. How would a kid who has 10 or 11 AP courses with good grades and good AP test scores compare to a kid who has, say, three or four university courses? Idk.

[Hoggirl]

 

For those who are "poor testers" life is not quite as open.

Very true.

[8filltheheart]

Yes, wouldn't it be nice if the rules were clear!!

 

I think circumstances, logistics, and personal preferences play into these decisions significantly. Access to a four-year university is a great resource for homeschoolers. My understanding is that it can also be challenging for homeschoolers to find schools willing to administer AP exams. I wonder if it might be easier to compromise entrance as a freshman if one has too many university courses. We had a friend whose daughter would have had 45 hours of AP credit. She had to give up 15 hours of those in order to qualify as an entering freshman. She simply chose what she wanted credit for. I don't know how that plays out if one has 45 hours of four-year university courses. Seems like one would be considered a transfer student, but I don't know.

 

I do think admissions folks are used to seeing lots of applicants with lots of APs. No idea how that compares with someone who has no APs, but does have university courses. Which is exactly what you are saying! There's no way to know. I would think quantity might play into it. How would a kid who has 10 or 11 AP courses with good grades and good AP test scores compare to a kid who has, say, three or four university courses? Idk.

As far as I am aware, most schools treat dual enrollment hrs in isolation of freshman status meaning that as long as they were taken in high school, you apply as a freshman. As far as how many they accept and how they compare to AP courses......to the former, it is institution specific, the latter, I' m not quite sure.

 

Fwiw, depending on the school, ds has either 8 or 16 credit hrs from APs (5s on bc and chem) and by the end of this semester he will have 28 credit hrs for 200/300 math and physics courses, so that is 44 hrs on the high end. Schools like UA will give him credit for everything (ds has verified all the credits will transfer as direct equivalencies toward major and not as elective credits.). At GA Tech, not quite sure what would happen. They only give 4 hrs of credit for the AP exams, for example.

 

Another fwiw, GA Tech posted their acceptance stats as AP/IB/or dual enrolled credits, so at least for them I think they see them as comparable.

[Laura Corin]

And all those people--lawyer, doctor, nurse, etc.--can take the test multiple times.

 

 

And one can retake exams in the UK too.

 

L

[Laura Corin]

As for me, I would find the waiting until July for results to be very difficult.  I'm glad we know here usually by March or April and can make a decision by May 1st.  At least that gives a bit more time for planning.  JMO. 

 

If you grow up with it, it seems normal.  What seems odd to me is knowing where you are going early in the year and still working on through high school work thereafter.  I would think that motivation would sag.

 

One 'holds onto' two offers in the UK - one high and one low.  When the exam results come out in July or August, one knows which of those two one will be attending.  So there are only two possibilities in one's head.

 

L

[Muttichen]

I do think admissions folks are used to seeing lots of applicants with lots of APs. 

 

This, exactly, is why we had our kids take them.  Admissions people understand them and expect to see them.  Even if our kids took a course at the CC, we'd have them take the AP exam as well.  We don't have a four year university near us, but if we did, we'd do the same thing.  If you're playing their game, you have to speak their language.

 

They don't say "10 APs are required" because they don't want to discourage kids whose schools don't offer APs.  If a student's school offers them, they expect to see them. 

[creekland]

This, exactly, is why we had our kids take them.  Admissions people understand them and expect to see them.  Even if our kids took a course at the CC, we'd have them take the AP exam as well.  We don't have a four year university near us, but if we did, we'd do the same thing.  If you're playing their game, you have to speak their language.

 

They don't say "10 APs are required" because they don't want to discourage kids whose schools don't offer APs.  If a student's school offers them, they expect to see them. 

 

I think it definitely helps to have a couple AP test scores (at a minimum) if heading to a top level school.  College classes vary so much.  The AP test is standard.  It may not be great, but it is a constant among applicants making it easier to compare.

 

One top school told us they didn't need to see tons (at least, not from homeschoolers).  They just wanted to see something to substantiate grades.  Once a student had showed that they could do well on a couple of tests (SAT/ACT included, but not "alone,") they knew they could do well on pretty much any of them.

 

We used a mix of DE and AP for my "heading toward the top" guy and just DE for my other two.

 

[Gwen in VA]

I think the importance of umpteen AP tests can be overrated. Someone hears of students X, who has 12 AP tests and got into Prestige U, and soon everyone believes that you needs 12 AP's to get accepted.

 

There is a rumor in our state that I have heard from more parents than I can count (public schoolers AND private schoolers AND homeschoolers -- one version of the rumor even involves a letter from the admissions office stating this "fact") that you need a minimum of 7 AP tests in order to be accepted to our flagship U. I am rather amused by this since ds was accepted into their ** Scholars program with several fewer AP exams than that! But rumors get started and then people feel pressured to conform.

 

I totally agree with Creekland that "Once a student had showed that they could do well on a couple of tests (SAT/ACT included, but not "alone,") they knew they could do well on pretty much any of them."

 

You need to look at the colleges your kid is interested in, you need to look at your kid and what his/her goals and priorities are, and then you go forward. What happens in the admissions process happens.

[8filltheheart]

This, exactly, is why we had our kids take them. Admissions people understand them and expect to see them. Even if our kids took a course at the CC, we'd have them take the AP exam as well. We don't have a four year university near us, but if we did, we'd do the same thing. If you're playing their game, you have to speak their language.

 

They don't say "10 APs are required" because they don't want to discourage kids whose schools don't offer APs. If a student's school offers them, they expect to see them.

Ds didn't apply to any Ivies bc none appealed to him, but if the above is true, we still would not have gone this route even if it meant rejection. Unlike Regentrude, 10 APs for admission would have meant we would have walked away to somewhere more interested in whole person and their individual passions than checking off a bunch of collegeboard tests that the schools themselves have discussed as not preparing students well for their equivalent level of study. There are only so many hoops I am willing to make my kids jump through and that most definitely is not one of them. But, again, my kids have never had their heart set on any single school (and they really don't even think about college selections until 11th grade anyway). I can't imagine any of them ever being that way bc we just aren't that kind of family.

 

Fwiw, I do think it is illogical to make the assumption that APs would be more valuable for a couple of reasons. Obviously, APs only cover intro level courses. You can't take an AP for diffEQ or mechanics. Also, the transfer credit policies are pretty much the same across the board for upper tier schools......only x number of hours allowed(including APs) and course description reviews. If APs were more valued, I think the line between the two would be more distinct.

[Hoggirl]

I think the importance of umpteen AP tests can be overrated. Someone hears of students X, who has 12 AP tests and got into Prestige U, and soon everyone believes that you needs 12 AP's to get accepted.

 

There is a rumor in our state that I have heard from more parents than I can count (public schoolers AND private schoolers AND homeschoolers -- one version of the rumor even involves a letter from the admissions office stating this "fact") that you need a minimum of 7 AP tests in order to be accepted to our flagship U. I am rather amused by this since ds was accepted into their ** Scholars program with several fewer AP exams than that! But rumors get started and then people feel pressured to conform.

 

I totally agree with Creekland that "Once a student had showed that they could do well on a couple of tests (SAT/ACT included, but not "alone,") they knew they could do well on pretty much any of them."

 

You need to look at the colleges your kid is interested in, you need to look at your kid and what his/her goals and priorities are, and then you go forward. What happens in the admissions process happens.

I agree with all of this. We cannot know what actually tips the scales for any of our children in the black box of college admissions. I do think if one wants to attend a top twenty school (debating the merits of ranking systems can be saved for another thread :)), you better have "something." My ds has aimed very high in his college choices. He has applied to eleven schools: 3 Big State U safeties which will give him nice merit $ for National Merit, 2 private match schools which should give him some merit $, 5 Top Twenty Research Universities, and 1 Top Twenty LAC. As I posted in another thread, one of my mantras is "Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it." In terms of application items that produce hard data, he will have had 11 AP courses (only 10 exams because of AB/BC Calc) by the time he graduates, although only five exams were reported at application time (though, of course, they could see that his senior year course load included five additional AP classes). He has had two university courses (six hours), he has taken three SAT subject tests, the SAT once (to qualify for NM) and the ACT twice. He will not know the outcome for most of the rest of his schools until March 31/April 1. He may not get in anywhere other than the three Big State Unis where he is already in! And that would be fine! Applying to all these top schools was his choice - not mine. But, failure to check a normally-seen-by-admissions-people box will not be the cause of his not getting into the top 20s. If he doesn't get into any of those it will be because of things mostly outside of his control - essays, ECs, race, geographic location, lack of a hook, etc.

 

I am already weary of the wait.

[Hoggirl]

Ds didn't apply to any Ivies bc none appealed to him, but if the above is true, we still would not have gone this route even if it meant rejection. Unlike Regentrude, 10 APs for admission would have meant we would have walked away to somewhere more interested in whole person and their individual passions than checking off a bunch of collegeboard tests that the schools themselves have discussed as not preparing students well for their equivalent level of study. There are only so many hoops I am willing to make my kids jump through and that most definitely is not one of them. But, again, my kids have never had their heart set on any single school (and they really don't even think about college selections until 11th grade anyway). I can't imagine any of them ever being that way bc we just aren't that kind of family.

 

And those are very valid, conscious choices. We chose to put ds in a B&M charter high school. That was the right choice for our family, but I know many here would never consider that.

 

FWIW, we have chosen to play the college admissions "game." We'll see how that plays out come April 1.

 

Wait, wait, wait.

[Teachin'Mine]

If you grow up with it, it seems normal.  What seems odd to me is knowing where you are going early in the year and still working on through high school work thereafter.  I would think that motivation would sag.

 

One 'holds onto' two offers in the UK - one high and one low.  When the exam results come out in July or August, one knows which of those two one will be attending.  So there are only two possibilities in one's head.

 

L

 

Yes, absolutely.  Whatever we are used to seems normal.  And what you described about senior year is very common as it's called senior slump and senioritis among other names.  Senior grades often suffer so colleges which have admitted students usually require end of year grades and notify students that they may rescind admission if they drop considerably.   The UK system prevents this problem.   Here, senior year work done after acceptances can seem meaningless to some students.   I guess for some the only reason to do well is to get into colleges, so without that motivation the beach and other pursuits take priority.  Just thinking back a few decades.  lol

 

Laura thank you for all your information on the UK system as I find it interesting how it's handled in different countries.  I had assumed the test was only given once, and obviously I'm wrong!   I guess when I hear of needing a qualifying test score, China's system comes to mind and they do administer the test only once a year, but theirs is three days long.  :svengo:

[Muttichen]

Fwiw, I do think it is illogical to make the assumption that APs would be more valuable for a couple of reasons. Obviously, APs only cover intro level courses. You can't take an AP for diffEQ or mechanics. Also, the transfer credit policies are pretty much the same across the board for upper tier schools......only x number of hours allowed(including APs) and course description reviews. If APs were more valued, I think the line between the two would be more distinct.

 

The really upper tier schools (Harvard and Princeton at least) don't give ANY credit for APs or duel enrollment.  Our kids had APs for the intro courses but also took upper level courses like diffEqs.  We saw APs as a way to validate what we were doing anyway.  For example, we did French and German all along, our kids were fluent by 8th or 9th grade, so it was natural and easy for them to take the AP. 

 

I'm not saying APs are the only way to do it.  I'm just telling what has consistently worked for our family.  

[Hoggirl]

The really upper tier schools (Harvard and Princeton at least) don't give ANY credit for APs or duel enrollment. Our kids had APs for the intro courses but also took upper level courses like diffEqs. We saw APs as a way to validate what we were doing anyway. For example, we did French and German all along, our kids were fluent by 8th or 9th grade, so it was natural and easy for them to take the AP.

 

I'm not saying APs are the only way to do it. I'm just telling what has consistently worked for our family.

Exactly. Just as I said in another thread - fewer and fewer (or no) credits for AP as you move up the food chain. But, I think it would be VERY difficult to get accepted into the upper tier schools without AP or dual enrollment. JMO.

[regentrude]

 Unlike Regentrude, 10 APs for admission would have meant we would have walked away to somewhere more interested in whole person and their individual passions than checking off a bunch of collegeboard tests that the schools themselves have discussed as not preparing students well for their equivalent level of study. There are only so many hoops I am willing to make my kids jump through and that most definitely is not one of them.

 

I completely agree. I would not want to make my kids jump through every hoop either, because I do not believe in focusing four years of the student's life solely on the elusive goal of admittance to a highly selective school (and going for AP exams would have meant to compromise the content of our studies and tailor them to match the test)

It's just that my DD would have insisted on jumping through whatever ridiculous hoop there might have been if the result would have been guaranteed. The last being the crucial word.

[Teachin'Mine]

Hoggirl as far as admission status as a freshman or transfer student, we've found that the more selective a college the more lenient their policy on the number of college credits an incoming student can have.  All of the top schools we've looked at allow an unlimited number and will even allow an associates degree as long as the classes were taken while in high school.  Some of the much less selective ones we've seen have had caps even below 30 credits.  We can't consider those colleges as she wants four years and not just two.

 

Like everything else related to giving our individual children the best education we can, there are so many different paths and all are valid.  There's nothing wrong with gearing their high school courses and testing to what the schools they want to attend seem to prefer.  Sounds smart to me.   There's nothing wrong with doing what the student wants to do and ignoring the more traditional paths, but the student needs to know that they're outside the box and that their path may or may not get them admission to some schools.  And there's nothing wrong with coming up with something in the middle.   My dd chose what she wanted to do and it just so happens that I think it will be acceptable to most schools.  Acceptance is another thing entirely as highly selective schools are highly selective regardless of the stats or path chosen.  As they say, they could fill the incoming class with 2400/36 4.0 students, but there's so much more to it than that.  Thankfully!

 

I would have loved for my dd to take a couple of APs to show proof of her mastery, but it didn't seem worth the cost.  Our community college and state university courses are using the same texts and covering the same content.  The major difference is the size of the classes and the student to faculty ratio.  As all state universities must accept the credits from CCs, the standards of content and grading must be maintained.   This does obviously vary somewhat depending on the professors/instructors, but that's true of all colleges and universities.

 

Would be nice to see more of sharing our own paths without discrediting those chosen by others.