An interesting summary of the research on cue-parenting vs. cry it out/sleep training............

[Joanne]

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/moral-landscapes/201112/dangers-crying-it-out

 

(I don't like the tone of this one, but I do like some of the info)

 

 

http://evolutionaryparenting.com/proving-the-harm-in-early-sleep-training/

[Guest submarines]

:hurray:

 

Though of course, looking at my oldest,  (never CIO-ed, nursed on cue, always in arms, co-slept--she would have cried a lot if she wasn't with me, but she was with me and she almost never cried) she managed to have a lot of issues that children who CIO might have. Sigh...

 

And I'm sure there will be a lot of people saying they let their babies CIO and their children are securely attached and profoundly gifted.

[SKL]

I always wonder, though, about causation.  Personally I believe CIO is fine for some kids, and the parent is the person to decide if his/her kid is a candidate for it.  Did I use CIO?  I honestly don't remember clearly, because I don't have any traumatic memories regarding sleep.  I figure there was probably a night or two at some point when my kids didn't want to go to sleep and I left them to get over themselves.  But this was fine for them because they were the type who could get over themselves.  Like all the other baby tears, these times have been forgotten because they were so minor in the grand scheme of things.

 

For those whose kids are not able to "get over themselves" easily, I could see a lot of damage being done by leaving them to scream.  These are the cases that are going to hit the radar.  That doesn't mean that kids like mine would have been better off had we hung around and stimulated them when they were supposed to be sleeping.  I'm pretty sure that chronic sleep shortages are worse for the brain than a little occasional crying.

[rainbird2]

And here I am with a 6 month old on my chest who won't sleep unless I hold him. I have the flu, my husband works long hours and I have 3 other little ones to take care of. I am so tired I cannot see straight. I cried this morning because I didn't sleep at all last night...baby won't sleep unless I am holding him. I can't sleep when I hold him...I am afraid of cosleeping. A friend's 6 month old was smothered to death a few months ago. My husband rolled over on our first baby, and I woke up to find him under him. It scared me so much that I bought a cosleeper and put him in there. We did intend on cosleeping, but that changed our minds. Just too many bad experiences to cosleep, sorry.

 

I have the baby in a crib right next to my bed. He won't sleep in there. He just screams until I pick him up, then I can't sleep. Honestly, I want to put him in the study on the other side of the house and come back and get him in 8 hours. But these articles make it sound like I am going to cause him permanent damage if I do so.

 

What gives? I can't handle this anymore. I really think I am not good for anyone right now because I am so much of a mess.

[poppy]

That is absolute hogwash.  CIO take a week, usually.  Are they suggesting a few hours of inconsolable crying caused lifelong emotional damage?  Babies developing brains can absolutely be damage from not receiving appropriate attention - I have seen those studies - they are for chidren who are horribly neglected long term. That the article never reveals that is incredibly telling.

 

And the article makes absolutely  no distinction between the  emotional needs and capabilities of  a newborn vs a six month old vs a 12 month old.   

 

And this:

 

 

Caregiver sensitivity may be harmed. A caregiver who learns to ignore baby crying, will likely learn to ignore the more subtle signaling of the child's needs. Second-guessing intuitions to stop child distress, the adult who ignores baby needs practices and increasingly learns to "harden the heart." The reciprocity between caregiver and baby is broken by the adult, but cannot be repaired by the young child. The baby is helpless.

 

Parents who CIO are incapable of proper parenting, because they CIO.

HOGWASH.

[dirty ethel rackham]

:grouphug: Rainbird, 

 

There are safe ways to co-sleep and unsafe ways. I would research them and figure something out because you can't go on like this.   You could put a mattress on the floor and sleep with your baby there.  Then, when the baby is fully asleep (pick up the baby's arm and let it go - if it drops like a rock, the baby is in a deeper cycle of sleep.)  Then move back into your bed.  You may find yourself moving back and forth between the beds, but that is ultimately a bit safer and more conducive to rest than holding the baby all night. 

 

I co-slept nearly full-time with my younger two.  (My oldest slept better in his own bed.)  We had used the "Arm's Reach Co-sleeper until they were bigger, then we attached the crib to our bed as a side car, making sure that there was no way to create a gap for entrapment.  The baby slept on that side of me. 

[zoobie]

Rainbird, have you gotten the baby checked for reflux? Sometimes wanting to sleep in a more upright (being held) position is a flag for that. My oldest was the same way. Only slept being held. We did wind up co sleeping. Mattress on the floor like crazy hippies ;) which I never would have expected. She didn't have other signs of reflux but now I wish I had pushed for a trial of Zantac or something just to see...

 

Can you get some help to get you caught up on sleep then have the brain power to tackle the problem? I would absolutely put a mattress on the floor so you can get some sleep until you figure out a long term solution that works for your family. You can't go on being sleep deprived!

 

:grouphug:

[SeaConquest]

CIO is learned helplessness. How long it takes depends on how long before your kid gives up on you attending to his needs. A very sad lesson to be taught at such a young age. :/

[Freckles]

Rainbird, I second the reflux possibility. I hope you get some rest soon.

[LinRTX]

Well my babies (except the first) did not CIO until they were 9 months old. It only took 2-3 nights. Because I jumped at every whimper they never learned to sleep through the night until they cried a few nights.

 

My first however could not be soothed in my arms; trying to sooth him by holding, rocking, anything just fueled the crying. He was very easily over stimulated. I could not hold him except to nurse him. The crying would just escalate.  If I put him in a crib, he would settle right back down. If I tried to rock him, the crying got worse and it took much longer for him to settle when I finally put him down.

 

I was a new mom with no family or help nearby. I felt like a failure. He has always been one I just had to figure out. He never did anything the way "normal" babies did it -- the way everyone else's seemed to be behaving.

 

Linda

[ajfries]

Let's be clear: CIO does not  mean leaving the baby in crib all by themselves for however long it takes. I'm sure there are (idiots) out there who do it that way, but that is not what I would consider sleep training.

 

With my son, "CIO" looked like this: Baby cries. I go in, soothe baby, lay him back down. He cries. I leave. I wait 10 minutes, go in soothe, lay him back down. He cries. I wait 20 minutes. Lather, rinse, repeat. At most it took 2 cycles before he fell asleep. Like a previous poster said, it seemed that he got overstimulated easily. His crying would escalate when I held him, not get better. I had to just pat his back. It took 3 nights this. That's all. He slept through the night from then on. I think he was about 9 months old & CLEARLY did not need to eat two times a night. 

 

 

 

 

[FO4UR]

Rainbird, I agree about putting a mattress on the floor to nurse baby to sleep sidelying and then sneaking to your own bed when he's out.  That's what I have done, and it works pretty well.  I keep a blankie between baby & me when we nurse to sleep so that when I slip away, the blankie holds in that body heat so she doesn't wake up immediately.

 

 

 

Another trick is lying in a recliner with baby on your chest and wrapping a receiving blanket over baby and under your arms.  It just gives baby some stability so she doesn't slip out of my arms.  I don't sleep well that way either, but it works well for an afternoon nap.

 

 

Also, it helps to gradually try to let baby self-sooth by unlatching baby before completely asleep but too tired (and cozy) to care. Let that be a slow process.  3 steps forward, 2 steps back.

 

 

And, all of my kids have reached a point where they cried longer if I tried to soothe them to sleep than if I just laid them down. (10-12mo)  They figured out that rocking with blankie or dolly meant sleepy time and they resisted.  I laid them down, and let them cry.  At that point, they cried for less than 5min before falling asleep.  I always get them as soon as they wake, even at 2am.  My current baby is 12mo, and starts the night in her crib but co-sleeps from about 2am-7am.  

 

 

Give yourself lots of grace. :grouphug:   Call a friend and ask her to come and rock your baby while you take a nap. 

[Moxie]

CIO is learned helplessness. How long it takes depends on how long before your kid gives up on you attending to his needs. A very sad lesson to be taught at such a young age. :/

Good Lord. You might want to take it down a notch or two. Do you actually think this comment is kind or helpful??

[Mrs Mungo]

Rainbird, I would definitely have baby checked for reflux first of all. I agree with putting the crib mattress on the floor and you laying down with him until he falls asleep. For us, routine was really a key part of getting my kids to sleep. At bedtime, we'd turn the lights down, get the house quiet, read a story, I'd nurse baby, then dh (when he was home) or I (mostly when he was deployed) would sit with them until they fell asleep. I did it alone a lot. I know how exhausting it can be. Do you have a local La Leche group or mom's group where you could turn for support?

[livetoread]

I know for my poor sleepers, I could get them to sleep and tiptoe out, but that didn't help when they'd wake crying every two hours, all night, every night. For months. Shudder.

 

Mine did have reflux and Zantac bought me three hours instead of two, but they didn't do better until they started walking consistently. Even then, they still needed my presence to resettle until, well, about four or so. I'm so sorry Rainbird. I understand.

[Joanne]

That is absolute hogwash. CIO take a week, usually. Are they suggesting a few hours of inconsolable crying caused lifelong emotional damage? Babies developing brains can absolutely be damage from not receiving appropriate attention - I have seen those studies - they are for chidren who are horribly neglected long term. That the article never reveals that is incredibly telling.

 

And the article makes absolutely no distinction between the emotional needs and capabilities of a newborn vs a six month old vs a 12 month old.

 

And this:

 

Parents who CIO are incapable of proper parenting, because they CIO.

HOGWASH.

The journal article is written based on a survey of the existing research.

 

The commentary is separate from the journal article.

 

The literature survey and research was limited to infants 6 months and younger.

[Guest submarines]

Good Lord. You might want to take it down a notch or two. Do you actually think this comment is kind or helpful??

So what do you think CIO is, then?

[Shellydon]

CIO did not work for any of my children.  They just cranked up the crying  and could never settle.

[SproutMamaK]

Meh, I don't parent by studies. I do what works for my kids. My oldest we didn't even have to deal with a sleep issue, he was great from the beginning. With middle son, CIO would have been horrible. He was a huge, frequently hungry (ACTUALLY hungry, despite eating tons) baby, and when he cried he meant it. CIO with him would have done an enormous amount of damage. Youngest son, on the other hand, we let CIO. He would cry for every little thing. Shadow on the wall? CRY. Too bright? CRY. Hear someone walk past the door? CRY. etc, etc. Keeping up with him would have driven us crazy and only reinforced the crying. We were all, including him, much happier after a little bit of CIO.

 

For some things, parenting philosophies are helpful. For others, like what to do with a little baby who cries, parents just need to learn to trust their instincts and learn about their individual child's needs. I don't think lecturing people and acting like they're destroying their children for life either way is helpful.

 

Edit: That's not meant to imply that you were lecturing anyone by posting this thread, Joanne; just that the Mommy Wars I've seen about this one can get downright nasty.

[Guest]

And here I am with a 6 month old on my chest who won't sleep unless I hold him. I have the flu, my husband works long hours and I have 3 other little ones to take care of. I am so tired I cannot see straight. I cried this morning because I didn't sleep at all last night...baby won't sleep unless I am holding him. I can't sleep when I hold him...I am afraid of cosleeping. A friend's 6 month old was smothered to death a few months ago. My husband rolled over on our first baby, and I woke up to find him under him. It scared me so much that I bought a cosleeper and put him in there. We did intend on cosleeping, but that changed our minds. Just too many bad experiences to cosleep, sorry.

 

I have the baby in a crib right next to my bed. He won't sleep in there. He just screams until I pick him up, then I can't sleep. Honestly, I want to put him in the study on the other side of the house and come back and get him in 8 hours. But these articles make it sound like I am going to cause him permanent damage if I do so.

 

What gives? I can't handle this anymore. I really think I am not good for anyone right now because I am so much of a mess.

 

Rainbird2, of course you can't handle it anymore because it is abnormal. I totally understand because my youngest was the same way. Also, I was so grateful that he was alive because my baby before him died that the thought of putting him down to where he could cry was unthinkable. So for a couple of months, I dozed rather than slept, propped up in bed with him sleeping in my arm cradle. I did not last 6 months in this arrangment. I came to the conclusion you're coming to sooner than that. (Maybe 3 months? I don't recall.) 

 

He did cry at first. I put him in a Moses Basket and then put the basket in the crib (in his room).  I had a video monitor which I STARED at because, as I said, I was afraid my baby could die if I didn't see what was happening. The Moses Basket was meant to provide a "held" feeling - it was more closed around him than laying flat in the crib would have been. Eventually, he went in the crib without the basket.  

 

There was crying involved. He did not like it. I am certain he much preferred being cradled in my arms than alone in a basket. But I am a very practical person and the no-sleep-for-me approach was terrible for all of us. I do not believe that children are so fragile that all the other loving, attentive, caring parenting can be nullified by learning that mom's arms are not a hammock. There are many instances where parents have the superior understanding of what is necessary for the long-term benefit of the child and the family as a whole, though it means the child will cry or be very unhappy for a period of time. I don't see the need for normal sleep as exempt from these lessons of social living. 

 

P.S. That child is 9 years old now and, if he was emotionally or intellectually damaged, it isn't evident. He's a lovely, vibrant and healthy boy who sleeps normally every night in his own bed. 

[MomatHWTK]

My reflux baby (undiagnosed food allergies) slept in his car seat which I placed in the middle of our bed so I could rock him when he fussed. He had to be held all the time otherwise.   Other babies were not so unhappy as I didn't expose them to any of the top 8 allergens.  They slept in a glider bassinet next to me.  I could reach over and give it a push if they fussed. 

[Moxie]

So what do you think CIO is, then?

Depends on the age if the child. Under 6 months, it is probably a bad idea. It doesn't make you evil or a bad, uncaring parent.

 

I've let all my kids CIO at around 1.5-2 years. I've spent lots of time trying other things. CIO is the only thing that finally gets my toddlers to sleep through the night.

[Mrs Mungo]

I don't blame you.  If my kids were still like that as toddlers, I'd just drop dead of exhaustion and probably would not hear them crying and that would be that.  I had a friend who wouldn't let her preschool aged kids cry.  She would lay in their room every single night until they fell asleep.  She just turned into this crazy fog woman because she wasn't getting any sleep.  Sometimes they'd finally fall asleep so she'd leave the room and then they'd wake up and she had to start over again.  And they were WAY past baby and toddler stage.

I never did CIO with my kids, but I never had an issue like this at all, ever. By the time my kids were a year old, we'd do the bedtime routine, put them to bed and they'd go to sleep. I'm not saying that it always happens, but not going through a whole big cry it out thing doesn't automatically mean you'll have poor sleepers.

[Guest submarines]

Depends on the age if the child. Under 6 months, it is probably a bad idea. It doesn't make you evil or a bad, uncaring parent.

 

I've let all my kids CIO at around 1.5-2 years. I've spent lots of time trying other things. CIO is the only thing that finally gets my toddlers to sleep through the night.

 

 

You didn't answer the question, though. If it isn't learned helplessness, then what is it?

[Mrs Mungo]

I didn't do CIO either.  But my kid sometimes did cry and I wasn't there.   He cried all day long.  I sometimes had to go to the bathroom or eat.  LOL

 

Ugh..I do NOT miss those times.

And I think that is sort of normal. Even Dr. Sears says with a crying baby sometimes you just do what you have to do. I didn't have any babies who cried all of the time, thank goodness! I did have one who wanted to be entertained all of the time. She still does, LOL!

[Guest]

You didn't answer the question, though. If it isn't learned helplessness, then what is it?

 

So what if it is learned helplessness? This isn't necessarily a bad thing. All parenting that seeks to extinguish undesirable behavior operates on this theory. If my kids learn to eat asparagus (and they all did) because that's what I made for dinner, so that is the option besides going hungry, then - good. I want them to learn that their pouting or fussing is not going to make me serve Pop Tarts instead. 

[Guest submarines]

So what if it is learned helplessness? This isn't necessarily a bad thing. All parenting that seeks to extinguish undesirable behavior operates on this theory. If my kids learn to eat asparagus (and they all did) because that's what I made for dinner, so that is the option besides going hungry, then - good. I want them to learn that their pouting or fussing is not going to make me serve Pop Tarts instead. 

 

A baby's crying is a way to communicate, it doesn't equate to fussing or pouting when faced with asparagus.

[Moxie]

You didn't answer the question, though. If it isn't learned helplessness, then what is it?

I think it is learning that it is okay to put your head down and fall asleep without Mom.

[Guest submarines]

So what if it is learned helplessness? This isn't necessarily a bad thing. All parenting that seeks to extinguish undesirable behavior operates on this theory. If my kids learn to eat asparagus (and they all did) because that's what I made for dinner, so that is the option besides going hungry, then - good. I want them to learn that their pouting or fussing is not going to make me serve Pop Tarts instead. 

 

Maybe we are not talking about the same thing when we talk about learned helplessness. I'm talking about conditioning when a child learns that his or her efforts to avoid aversive stimuli (punishment) are not effective. This is a pervasive believe that can spread into other areas of one's life.

[Joanne]

I think it is learning that it is okay to put your head down and fall asleep without Mom.

Under normal circumstances (meaning neurotypical and a lack of allergies), I believe it is developmentally and biologically appropriate for infants to need parenting, often mothering, to sleep.

 

At some point, it becomes NOT developmentally appropriate. Parenting a baby to sleep does not create a child who needs to be parented to sleep for the long term; if that happens, other factors are at play.

 

A LONG time ago, I had an infamous blog post about observing a higher level of permissiveness in the attachment parenting community - so I do feel there can be a correlation as kids age and the parent doesn't allow them to mature developmentally.

 

I don't let research dictate my parenting but I do use it to help me make informed decisions. ETA: I am not a fan of behaviorism as a parenting orientation.

[poppy]

The journal article is written based on a survey of the existing research.

 

The commentary is separate from the journal article.

 

The literature survey and research was limited to infants 6 months and younger.

 

I think it is a very shallow and alarmist interpretation of existing research.

I didn't address the commentary at all so not sure why you mentioned that while replying to me?

 

I did CIO at 8 months with my first.  I wouldn't consider doing it earlier than 6 months, and Dr. Ferber (who is the person I most associate with CIO) does not recommend CIO prior to six months.  Following Ferber's advice, I went into her room at frequent intervals. It took a few nights- 3 maybe? And was a very good thing. My daughter learned to fall asleep on her own.   I never did it with my second I was able to successfully do No Cry Sleep Solution-type sleep assistance with him. 

 

I do agree with the idea that letting a little baby scream itself to sleep is a bad idea.

[Guest submarines]

I think it is learning that it is okay to put your head down and fall asleep without Mom.

It is the same as saying that it is learning that no matter what you do, your mother won't come, even if you really need her and communicate in the only way you can. On the very basic level of conditioning this teaches that communication doesn't matter, and you'd rather give up.

 

It is obviously a very charged topic, and I have no delusions that anything anyone would say will change the opinions of the CIO parents, especially those who already used it, but I still feel that it needs to be said, potentially "offensive" or not. You are sugar coating CIO so that it matches with your belief system.

 

I don't think that CIO automatically means that the parent is evil or uncaring. Just ignorant. But as with everything, when we know better, we do better. We really should know better and do better, than thinking that leaving a dependent little person alone in the dark teaches them anything positive.

 

If you were scared or lonely, or just irrationally hormonally upset, and wanted DH's company and comfort and he repeatedly left you alone to cry, it would indeed teach you that it is okay to fall asleep in tears without him.  Of course it is "okay". But it is clearly suboptimal for your relationship with DH, if you learn that no matter how upset you are and how much you need him, he won't come. If you are going to cry, wouldn't you rather DH held you, instead of teaching you a lesson of self-reliance?

 

If scientific research about the negative effects of CIO doesn't reach you (general you), then what about the most basic human instinct of nurturing the ones that are little and alone?

 

It was already clear to me, judging by the ratio of views per responses, that this the kind of thread where folks don't want to express their beliefs, one way or the other, not wanting to offend. Sometimes, however, if everyone is afraid to offend, backward opinions persist.

[Liz CA]

 I am not a fan of behaviorism as a parenting orientation.

 

Behaviorism. Yikes. Well, there may be some positive aspects of it but IMHO not a philosophy to be wholly embraced to the exclusion of other principles.

I suppose knowing one's child and parenting accordingly is always best. Many people here observed different needs among siblings and responded differently to those needs. Results based on research for the purpose of  "parenting" is bound to be 50% "right" and  50% "wrong."

[Joker]

It is the same as saying that it is learning that no matter what you do, your mother won't come, even if you really need her and communicate in the only way you can. On the very basic level of conditioning this teaches that communication doesn't matter, and you'd rather give up.

 

It is obviously a very charged topic, and I have no delusions that anything anyone would say will change the opinions of the CIO parents, especially those who already used it, but I still feel that it needs to be said, potentially "offensive" or not. You are sugar coating CIO so that it matches with your belief system.

 

I don't think that CIO automatically means that the parent is evil or uncaring. Just ignorant. But as with everything, when we know better, we do better. We really should know better and do better, than thinking that leaving a dependent little person alone in the dark teaches them anything positive.

 

If you were scared or lonely, or just irrationally hormonally upset, and wanted DH's company and comfort and he repeatedly left you alone to cry, it would indeed teach you that it is okay to fall asleep in tears without him.  Of course it is "okay". But it is clearly suboptimal for your relationship with DH, if you learn that no matter how upset you are and how much you need him, he won't come. If you are going to cry, wouldn't you rather DH held you, instead of teaching you a lesson of self-reliance?

 

If scientific research about the negative effects of CIO doesn't reach you (general you), then what about the most basic human instinct of nurturing the ones that are little and alone?

 

It was already clear to me, judging by the ratio of views per responses, that this the kind of thread where folks don't want to express their beliefs, one way or the other, not wanting to offend. Sometimes, however, if everyone is afraid to offend, backward opinions persist.

 

I don't get the bolded in regards to CIO, at least as I know it. I did CIO with one dd, and didn't with the other. The one who CIO was not repeatedly left alone to cry and didn't fall asleep in tears. We did CIO when she was about 7 months old and it took two nights. We were soothing her every few minutes until she eventually calmed herself and went to sleep. From that night on she would go to bed smiling and play/talk to herself for up to 30 minutes before nodding off. She's a great teenager now and a wonderful sleeper.

 

Thanks for saying I'm not evil or uncaring, but I'm also not ignorant. I just don't agree with you.

 

[poppy]

It is the same as saying that it is learning that no matter what you do, your mother won't come, even if you really need her and communicate in the only way you can. On the very basic level of conditioning this teaches that communication doesn't matter, and you'd rather give up.

 

It is obviously a very charged topic, and I have no delusions that anything anyone would say will change the opinions of the CIO parents, especially those who already used it, but I still feel that it needs to be said, potentially "offensive" or not. You are sugar coating CIO so that it matches with your belief system.

 

I don't think that CIO automatically means that the parent is evil or uncaring. Just ignorant. But as with everything, when we know better, we do better. We really should know better and do better, than thinking that leaving a dependent little person alone in the dark teaches them anything positive.

 

If you were scared or lonely, or just irrationally hormonally upset, and wanted DH's company and comfort and he repeatedly left you alone to cry, it would indeed teach you that it is okay to fall asleep in tears without him.  Of course it is "okay". But it is clearly suboptimal for your relationship with DH, if you learn that no matter how upset you are and how much you need him, he won't come. If you are going to cry, wouldn't you rather DH held you, instead of teaching you a lesson of self-reliance?

 

If scientific research about the negative effects of CIO doesn't reach you (general you), then what about the most basic human instinct of nurturing the ones that are little and alone?

 

It was already clear to me, judging by the ratio of views per responses, that this the kind of thread where folks don't want to express their beliefs, one way or the other, not wanting to offend. Sometimes, however, if everyone is afraid to offend, backward opinions persist.

 

I do know how to go to sleep on my own, so I don't need a lesson in how to do so from my husband.  My daughter didn't know how.  It made her cry, when I helped her how to learn. She also cried when I buckled her into her car seat sometimes, but I still made her use it.  And when I took her to the doctor, but I still took her.  I hated to see her cry but sometimes good parenting requires it.

[Joanne]

Well, I don't know about you, but in life I've been pretty alone when it comes right down to it. There really are times when I am all I have. But my needs were always met. So if a little kid spends some time being a bit pissed off about nothing...not sure that is the end of the world.

 

 

 

But an infant doesn't have the developmental ability to DO that. You can't impose higher level expectations on baby brains and expect that they will mature several leaps developmentally as a result.

[Moxie]

It is the same as saying that it is learning that no matter what you do, your mother won't come, even if you really need her and communicate in the only way you can. On the very basic level of conditioning this teaches that communication doesn't matter, and you'd rather give up.

 

It is obviously a very charged topic, and I have no delusions that anything anyone would say will change the opinions of the CIO parents, especially those who already used it, but I still feel that it needs to be said, potentially "offensive" or not. You are sugar coating CIO so that it matches with your belief system.

 

I don't think that CIO automatically means that the parent is evil or uncaring. Just ignorant. But as with everything, when we know better, we do better. We really should know better and do better, than thinking that leaving a dependent little person alone in the dark teaches them anything positive.

 

If you were scared or lonely, or just irrationally hormonally upset, and wanted DH's company and comfort and he repeatedly left you alone to cry, it would indeed teach you that it is okay to fall asleep in tears without him. Of course it is "okay". But it is clearly suboptimal for your relationship with DH, if you learn that no matter how upset you are and how much you need him, he won't come. If you are going to cry, wouldn't you rather DH held you, instead of teaching you a lesson of self-reliance?

 

If scientific research about the negative effects of CIO doesn't reach you (general you), then what about the most basic human instinct of nurturing the ones that are little and alone?

 

It was already clear to me, judging by the ratio of views per responses, that this the kind of thread where folks don't want to express their beliefs, one way or the other, not wanting to offend. Sometimes, however, if everyone is afraid to offend, backward opinions persist.

 

So glad you are here to fix us poor backward folks!!

 

 

What I find ignorant is the idea that parenting is so black and white. There is no one right way to raise a child.

 

You seem to have this vision of CIO as some poor baby, stuck in a cold dark room all sad and wondering why she had been abandoned. I assure you that is not how it looks in our home.

[Guest]

You need to tell me your secret.  I have one kid who will eat any veggie.  I have another who won't eat any!  It's a real problem! 

 

But yes I get what you mean in general.  I always find it interesting that we are told to not let our babies cry no matter what (like forget being human and having your own needs and get to that crying baby no matter what because if not they will be messed up).  But then, when they are only slightly older we better be no nonsense otherwise we'll spoil them and we aren't being good parents.

 

I read way too many parenting books and magazines.  I think I would have been better to not read any of it.  I think they caused me more problems than helped me. 

Eh. I probably just got lucky. It's more fun to imagine it was my brilliant parenting skills at work, though. 

 

A baby's crying is a way to communicate, it doesn't equate to fussing or pouting when faced with asparagus.

I do believe it is a way to communicate. If the baby is saying, "I haven't eaten in a while and I'm hungry!" then, yes, they need nursing. If the baby is saying, "I am wet and uncomfortable" then, yes, they need changing. But babies can also cry when they are saying, "I am so tired! I need rest, but I don't know how to settle down and get the rest I need!" I believe it is appropriate to help them learn how to do that. I do believe babies can develop a preference for how they would like to go to sleep. They may prefer to go to sleep with a boob actually in their mouth, to wake up at the slightest attempt to remove it. They may prefer to go to sleep being bounced and patted by mom while she walks endlessly in circle around the nursery; should she attempt to sit down, he starts awake again, begging for his preferred sleep pattern to be put back in place. I know these to be true because I have experienced them and I have seen on boards and IRL hundreds and hundreds of postings and conversations with red-eyed moms who are going through these hoops night after night for months, years, needing a better answer, but fearful that they will ruin their child's desire to ever communicate in the future if they don't keep up this fruitless behavior pattern.  It is not true.  I am not ignorant, or uninformed. I read a gazillion books beginning when I was first-time pregnant and I've read books-worth of internet postings since. I thoroughly understand Dr. Sears and Ferber and have even read Ezzo and TTUAC. I've read Tracey Hogg and Weisbluth and a dozen other authors. I fully understand Attachment Parenting and clock-rigid scheduling and all shades in between. The people with the best results most often fall along the center spectrum. The most extreme AP-style moms I've known did not have good results.  They always had children who could not sleep normally for at least a year or two, if not for years to come. (I'm speaking of those I saw with my own eyes IRL.) The most extreme clock-schedule moms I've known did not have good results, either. They were constantly uptight and angry. Their children were either angry and hateful or downtrodden and dejected. 

 

Maybe we are not talking about the same thing when we talk about learned helplessness. I'm talking about conditioning when a child learns that his or her efforts to avoid aversive stimuli (punishment) are not effective. This is a pervasive believe that can spread into other areas of one's life.

 

No. It does not work that way. A loving and attentive parent does not ruin a child by putting limits in place. Learning to sleep appropriately is a limit just like learning to eat the broccoli, as I was saying earlier.  I doubt anyone is suggesting sticking the baby in a crib and just ignoring them for hours and hours, day after day. Teaching a child "the way we go to bed in our family is like this:" and then walking through a routine that finishes with the baby in their own sleeping space is not wrong, harmful or detrimental, even if the baby does not initially like it much and cries about it some. 

[Parrothead]

When dd was 6 months old she had to figure it out.  By that point she was using me as a human pacifier and she wouldn't go more than an hour without nursing in the middle of the night.  The first night she cried (in my bedroom mind you - not shut away in another room of the house) for 15 minutes two different times. The second night she cried for 10 minutes. From that day on she has slept well through the night. 

 

And I don't want to hear what a heartless b---h of a mom I am because this child either slept in my room or in my bed every night since birth until she was almost 14 years. Yes, YEARS.  Tonight is Friday so that means sleep with mom night.  It is the only way she will agree to sleep in her bed the other six nights of the week.

[ktgrok]

 The most extreme AP-style moms I've known did not have good results.  They always had children who could not sleep normally for at least a year or two, if not for years to come. (I'm speaking of those I saw with my own eyes IRL.) 

 

For the record, I'm a pretty "extreme" AP mom, and my kids did have issues sleeping if you mean they wanted someone with them to fall asleep. I don't htink that is an issue, I think it is biologically normal. It's what other mammals, and other societies of humans, have done for a very long time. I believe we were created/evolved to be held and cuddled to sleep. So to me, that isn't a sleep issue at all. About 3 years old my kids are able to go lay down in their bed by themselves and go to sleep. No tears. The oldest sleeps like the dead. The almost 4 year old has nightmares, so she still wakes sometimes, but that seems to be a genetic trait the women in my family share. So she still wakes now and then at night, but it is because of a scary dream (the other night she dreamt she had a hole in her arm...so weird), not just to be a pain in the butt. 

 

No. It does not work that way. A loving and attentive parent does not ruin a child by putting limits in place. Learning to sleep appropriately is a limit just like learning to eat the broccoli, as I was saying earlier.  I doubt anyone is suggesting sticking the baby in a crib and just ignoring them for hours and hours, day after day. Teaching a child "the way we go to bed in our family is like this:" and then walking through a routine that finishes with the baby in their own sleeping space is not wrong, harmful or detrimental, even if the baby does not initially like it much and cries about it some. 

 

I think what you interpret as "angry baby doesn't like it" others interpret as "scared/loney baby wants mama". When one interprets it as scared and lonely, wanting mama, it seems only natural to pick the baby up, and it is honestly hard for me to fathom doing otherwise. 

 

Now, I will say taht if the baby is just slightly fussing, that is different I suppose...but crying with a desperate "pick me up cry"...I can't imagine ignoring that just to teach some kind of lesson on sleep. Not knowing that they all eventually learn to sleep on their own if you are patient. 

[Sisyphus]

Oh, if only it were that easy. My personal opinion is brain chemistry has far more to do with nature than nurture. We all know the story of the child raised in horrific abuse/war/etc and goes on to be a fabulously well adjusted citizen. We all know the PTSD crippled child of the same circumstances. Why?

 

My child led weaned, co sleeping until choosing to sleep alone children are wildly different. One just as the article describes. One in therapy and on medication for anxiety, add and lds since age 7. Why?

 

I guess it's a small mercy I did co sleep and such, otherwise I would blame myself. Oh wait, I already do, for 100 other reasons in 100 other studies.

 

I am clearly taking this too personally, but cmon- sometimes you just have to let go of the why and deal with the now.

[MysteryJen]

I am wading into this with trepidation, but I think CIO or AP has a lot to do with the mother's needs as well as the child's needs. I needed my kids to go to sleep. I needed them to not be clinging to me when I slept.  My first was like me. Happy to sleep in his crib, would only doze lightly in my bed. My fourth and fifth babies loved to be touched and cuddled and slept best all squooshed up against me or dh.

 

We had to find a happy medium. So, we did a very gentle CIO after I  could not take it any more. I needed to be a happy and functional mother and wife.

 

I know other AP people who need the closeness with their babies, with some of the kids thriving and others not so much, even if it is creating problems for them, either with sleep patterns or marital bed problems.

 

I think you have to both know yourself and your needs as well as your child's needs. Compromise here is not always a bad thing.

[Joanne]

Hey, Quill. I have observed a similar outcome regarding extreme AP types.

[SKL]

It is the same as saying that it is learning that no matter what you do, your mother won't come, even if you really need her and communicate in the only way you can. On the very basic level of conditioning this teaches that communication doesn't matter, and you'd rather give up.

 

It is obviously a very charged topic, and I have no delusions that anything anyone would say will change the opinions of the CIO parents, especially those who already used it, but I still feel that it needs to be said, potentially "offensive" or not. You are sugar coating CIO so that it matches with your belief system.

 

I don't think that CIO automatically means that the parent is evil or uncaring. Just ignorant. But as with everything, when we know better, we do better. We really should know better and do better, than thinking that leaving a dependent little person alone in the dark teaches them anything positive.

 

If you were scared or lonely, or just irrationally hormonally upset, and wanted DH's company and comfort and he repeatedly left you alone to cry, it would indeed teach you that it is okay to fall asleep in tears without him.  Of course it is "okay". But it is clearly suboptimal for your relationship with DH, if you learn that no matter how upset you are and how much you need him, he won't come. If you are going to cry, wouldn't you rather DH held you, instead of teaching you a lesson of self-reliance?

 

Babies cry for different reasons.  Parents can usually tell whether it's communicating an urgent need or something else.  But bottom line, babies cry.

 

Crying often happens when a child (or adult!) is overstimulated or overtired to the point of being unable to find the balance needed to calm down and do the next thing - whether the next thing is sleeping or something else.  When a person (of any age) is in that state, a "good cry" can help a person relax and enjoy the comfort of a quiet, peaceful bed.  In the case of CIO (for a child who can benefit from it), the child learns to find comfort in that quiet, peaceful bed, and stops feeling a need to protest bedtime.  That isn't learned helplessness, it's learned contentment.

 

To answer your question, when I am crying, no, I don't want anyone to hold me.  If I get to that point it's because my head feels f'd up and I need space to reorganize it.

 

Sleep is so important.  You mention an instinct to nurture.  Finding an effective sleep solution for an overtired, overstimulated child is nurturing.  Being a mom who is well-rested (if possible) is also nurturing.

 

I'll say again, I don't believe CIO is for every child, but a caring parent is the person in the best position to decide if it's worth a try.

[kubiac]

 

A LONG time ago, I had an infamous blog post about observing a higher level of permissiveness in the attachment parenting community - so I do feel there can be a correlation as kids age and the parent doesn't allow them to mature developmentally.

 

 

Would LOVE to read if you have a link. Please share if it's still out there. Thanks. ~j

[Snow]

We let ds CIO. It was not what either dh or I wanted to do. He was probably 7 months or so. Twice when driving to work, from sheer exhaustion, I almost fell asleep and nearly swerved into another car. I worked FT and had a 1 hr commute each way. I was getting 3 hours max each night for months.

 

I would never recommend CIO (I'm home now and am still getting up every night with dd3). However, there are circumstances where it's the best option. Most people choose it, not because they are heartless mothers, but because it's the best choice given their situation. Not ideal, but not going to cause trauma, IMO.

[Forget-Me-Not]

I read way too many parenting books and magazines. I think I would have been better to not read any of it. I think they caused me more problems than helped me.

 

Me too. After a time, I really started to feel that all the "expert" advice I was reading got in the way of my own inner parenting voice. So, I came to the conclusion that I was the real expert on my own kids, and I did what felt right to me.

[Ausmumof3]

Hey, Quill. I have observed a similar outcome regarding extreme AP types.

I wonder if this is cause or effect though?

 

I came to parenting thinking we would be routine oriented, strict bedtime, pram people. My ds was clingy and attempting controlled crying he ended up vomiting. After that I started researching and came to a more attachment parent style, which seems to have worked well with the other kids. So the parenting style might be a response to a clingy child not the cause of it. I wouldn't say I'm an extreme attachment parent though.

 

My sister took a CIO approach to bedtime with at least one of hers and he seems pretty well adjusted now.

[jelbe5]

It is such a personal decision. We tried to let our son CIO but he worked himself up into a hysterical frenzy. Both my dh I and just felt that something was not quite right. We took turns holding and sleeping with him. He was about 2 1/2 when he was diagnosed with autism. He is very social and very attached to us - very loving. My dh feels this could possibly be a result of our decision not to let him CIO. All I know is we went with our gut at the time and for us seemed to be the right thing to do.

[Mommyfaithe]

And here I am with a 6 month old on my chest who won't sleep unless I hold him. I have the flu, my husband works long hours and I have 3 other little ones to take care of. I am so tired I cannot see straight. I cried this morning because I didn't sleep at all last night...baby won't sleep unless I am holding him. I can't sleep when I hold him...I am afraid of cosleeping. A friend's 6 month old was smothered to death a few months ago. My husband rolled over on our first baby, and I woke up to find him under him. It scared me so much that I bought a cosleeper and put him in there. We did intend on cosleeping, but that changed our minds. Just too many bad experiences to cosleep, sorry.

 

I have the baby in a crib right next to my bed. He won't sleep in there. He just screams until I pick him up, then I can't sleep. Honestly, I want to put him in the study on the other side of the house and come back and get him in 8 hours. But these articles make it sound like I am going to cause him permanent damage if I do so.

 

What gives? I can't handle this anymore. I really think I am not good for anyone right now because I am so much of a mess.

Take this from a mom of 7 who has btdt! Sometimes....moms health and well-being is and needs to be priority!! Period!!!!

You are not doing your baby any favors by allowing yourself to be exhausted and sick. Your baby will NOT be permanently damaged if you put him in his crib and let him cry for a while....or better yet, if you have a friend or relative who is willing to help, let them take baby for a few hours and SLEEP.

 

I mostly was an on-demand parent. I still am....even with my grown children! However, I have learned to put my health as a priority. If I am ill and I was chronically ill for 10 years, I am no good for anybody! I become crAnky and resentful instead of loving and caring?

 

I hate these studies!! I hate the parenting wars. Love your little people, but for Gods sake, and theirs, love yourself too!! get some sleep ....however you can!!!

 

Sending love and hugs and wishbincould be closer to actually help!

Faithe