Out of Ideas (Behavior Issues)

[toawh]

My eldest ds (7) has been very difficult lately. I am seriously at my wits end with how to react to his disobedience and lying. It seems that nothing I have done so far has worked. I have punished, shown disappointment, ignored. There are just so many lies. I find myself not even asking him not to do certain things because, if I do, I know he will turn around and disobey me. I try not to ask him if he has done stuff because he will lie to me, but still he volunteers lies blaming his actions on his younger brothers.

Last night we baked cookies and his younger brother thoughtfully put one aside for dh since they are his favorite. Ds offered to put the bowl in the kitchen for daddy and made a big display of saying how much daddy would enjoy it, etc.. During the night sometime he woke up and ate it. When I noticed out loud that the cookie was missing he chimed in saying how strange it was and that it was there last night. I told him I already knew it was him as the other two kids can't reach the top of the fridge. He insisted it wasn't him until a video started that he wanted to go see. A few minutes later, I found him using my laptop. He has his own and mine is off limits as I use it for work and he knows this well. As I was talking to him about the computer usage he handed me a bowl of what I had made for lunch and told me the toddler had taken it from the fridge and that he was bringing it to me, which he later admitted wasn't true. He was eating spaghetti on the sofa is why he lied.

None of the things he does is huge on its own but one after another they drive me nuts. At this point I am doing nothing. A cookie, or stained sofa, or even a broken laptop are not what bother me. I'm worried this habit of lying will fossilize into his character. 

What am I not seeing here? Or what has worked for other kids who had similar behavior issues? I'm willing to try anything. 

[Melissa in Australia]

I would think that each of these lies was huge. I don't know but perhaps if there was no argument about the first incident and straight into some punishment then the other incidents might not have happened. for the running off to watch a video while he was still being spoken to I would ban him from watching any videos. for using your laptop I would  confiscate his laptop and stop all screen time in general. For the spilt spaghetti I might make him clean the sofa.

 

 I never had a child lie to such a degree. I can only remember one time that my children lied, and that was about who cut up someone's bike tyre with a hacksaw. They were around the age of 4, 6 & 8 at the time. DH asked each of them who did it, they all just  shock their head and said they didn't know. DH commented that the air must have really rushed out of the tyre when it was cut. then ds 6 replied it came out really fast with a whooshing sound, so he was caught. He had to pay for his brother's new tyre and was so impressed with DH's ability to know that it was him that lied that he never lied again.

 

 

[kiwik]

I feel your stress. I have one that lies too. His lies are in some way understandable so i am working on making it more pleasant to tell the truth. i honestly don't think a kid who can't work out why lying is a bad idea has enough impulse control to think last time i lost the computer so i won't do it this time - you would have to constantly remind them.

[toawh]

I would think that each of these lies was huge. I don't know but perhaps if there was no argument about the first incident and straight into some punishment then the other incidents might not have happened. for the running off to watch a video while he was still being spoken to I would ban him from watching any videos. for using your laptop I would  confiscate his laptop and stop all screen time in general. For the spilt spaghetti I might make him clean the sofa.

 

 I never had a child lie to such a degree. I can only remember one time that my children lied, and that was about who cut up someone's bike tyre with a hacksaw. They were around the age of 4, 6 & 8 at the time. DH asked each of them who did it, they all just  shock their head and said they didn't know. DH commented that the air must have really rushed out of the tyre when it was cut. then ds 6 replied it came out really fast with a whooshing sound, so he was caught. He had to pay for his brother's new tyre and was so impressed with DH's ability to know that it was him that lied that he never lied again.

 

He didn't actually spill the spaghetti, just offered to lie about whose it was. Neither did he he leave while I was talking to him, I let him go once he owned up to the crime. My point is that the lies are petty. He would never cut someone's tires with a hack saw, but the lies bug me just the same. I think part of the problem is that he just does whatever he feels like doing whenever he feels like it regardless of who or what it will effect negatively. The lies are his solution for fixing the problems he creates. What kind of a punishment or consequence would you suggest? His idea when I asked him was no sweets until January. So unrealistic with holidays coming up and he would just sneak them anyways. 

[Melissa in Australia]

He didn't actually spill the spaghetti, just offered to lie about whose it was. Neither did he he leave while I was talking to him, I let him go once he owned up to the crime. My point is that the lies are petty. He would never cut someone's tires with a hack saw, but the lies bug me just the same. I think part of the problem is that he just does whatever he feels like doing whenever he feels like it regardless of who or what it will effect negatively. The lies are his solution for fixing the problems he creates. What kind of a punishment or consequence would you suggest? His idea when I asked him was no sweets until January. So unrealistic with holidays coming up and he would just sneak them anyways. 

I see, I read the first post wrong.

 

 I still think stealing a cookie that was clearly marked as Dad's then lying about it is not petty at all but a big issue.

[toawh]

I feel your stress. I have one that lies too. His lies are in some way understandable so i am working on making it more pleasant to tell the truth. i honestly don't think a kid who can't work out why lying is a bad idea has enough impulse control to think last time i lost the computer so i won't do it this time - you would have to constantly remind them.

 

How do you remind in a way that doesn't nag?

[saw]

DS7 goes through phases of lying, particularly about food issues. I don't think he means to be "bad", he just takes the easiest/most convenient approach. What works somewhat is telling him that I can no longer trust him and that I will be monitoring his every move. So if he lied about brushing his teeth, then I will make sure to watch him brush his teeth every time and tell him why I'm doing it. With something like the cookie, I think I'd say, well, I obviously cannot trust you to put this aside so I will have to lock it up or put it well out of your reach. It seems to be working -- it worked in the past, and now we're having a recurrence of the lying over the last few weeks (triggered by having to restrict food because of a stomach virus, which triggered DS's food issues related to adoption). Do you talk to DS about not being able to trust him anymore if he lies? 

I don't really punish him too harshly because I think that punishing him will cause him to lie more -- he knows he's done something he shouldn't do, and he lies to cover up, but if he knows he will be punished for his actions and his lying he will I think just become better at lying. I've encouraged him to own up to what he's done, praise him for being honest and give a mild consequence for the action. I'm also trying to remove temptation, so not leaving sweets within reach because I don't think he is capable at this age and with his food issues of withstanding temptation.  

[Deee]

I agree with Melissa: I don't see his lies as petty. They look petty because he's seven and life at seven is largely mundane, so there isn't much big stuff to lie about. If he's dobbing his siblings in and trying to get them into trouble, that's not petty, that's mean and there should be consequences. Why is he watching a video after mucking up and lying? He should be outdoors shovelling up dog nuggets (or something else unfun) not kicking back in front of the TV.

 

Makes me wonder if your son is quite smart. Smart kids, especially cunning smart kids, are really exhausting to parent! How good is your follow through? Do you give adequate consequences and do you check repeatedly that your requirements have been met? Teeth cleaning is one example here: DS has dyspraxia, so sometimes he just can't be bothered cleaning his teeth properly because this sort of fine motor work requires quite a bit of energy and concentration. If I don't ask and do random checks, he ends up with breath like the gates of hell. I find following through really boring and draining, especially if I've had to do it all day for school work already, but its essential to build good habits.

 

As for punishments, I would explain that lying is a trust issue. Because you can't trust him, he loses some freedom and must stay closer to you. He also needs to prove that he can be responsible so he needs to do chores, including chores that help his younger siblings (this is a requirement of all functioning humans, not a punishment and I would make that very clear). I wouldn't be angry with him, just the behaviour. And I would make a big deal of his position as the oldest. But you choose the punishments, not him. This is not a negotiation.

 

BTW, I think the hacksaw story is hilarious. I'll share it with DS in the morning.

[marbel]

He didn't actually spill the spaghetti, just offered to lie about whose it was. Neither did he he leave while I was talking to him, I let him go once he owned up to the crime. My point is that the lies are petty. He would never cut someone's tires with a hack saw, but the lies bug me just the same. I think part of the problem is that he just does whatever he feels like doing whenever he feels like it regardless of who or what it will effect negatively. The lies are his solution for fixing the problems he creates. What kind of a punishment or consequence would you suggest? His idea when I asked him was no sweets until January. So unrealistic with holidays coming up and he would just sneak them anyways. 

 

Be careful with that.  I have known many parents, myself included, who believed "my kid would never do x" until they find out it's done.

 

I would have stronger consequences for lying.  Took Dad's cookie?  No cookies for you today, or the next two days,  or whatever.  Don't make it impossible to enforce.   And yes, as a pp said, find a way to make it right.   Restitution is important.

 

He has his own laptop; do you monitor how he uses it?  Maybe he is watching things that somehow encourage lying, or seem to him to encourage it.

 

[bolt.]

I usually answer a lie (or what I believe to be a lie) with a simple, "I don't believe that." -- Then I proceed to whatever I would normally do about the actions themselves, regardless of any protests. (Including 'making things right' as a strong component, as pp mentioned.)

 

I expect my children to lie. I don't feel like my trust has been betrayed because I was never under the impression that I was dealing with people if honesty and integrity in the first place. My DH says it like this (CC to follow): Peter the disciple if Jesus denied Him and lied three times. Expecting children not to lie is like you expect them to be more righteous already than Peter was after 3 years if direct discipleship. Absurd. So, I supervise and don't ask questions that invite lying into the equation. That helps a lot.

 

OtherwiseI discourage it -- 1. 'in the moment' primarily by seeing to it that lies are unsuccessful and useless at changing a situation. 2. Through teaching the value of honesty by a variety of kid friendly angles at other times -- including, but not limited to 'godly' angles. 3. Discussing the idea of temptation ("wanting two things at once") and encouraging solid values-based decision making skills, as they gradually replace impulsiveness in a child... Also not 'in the moment'.

 

Don't allow yourself to extrapolate and sensationalize his behaviour. He's got a practical mind and in a practical sense, lies make a lot if sense. You are his coach in this issue (and all issues) so he needs you to worry less, be less reactive, and have a plan to carry him through a lot of years "towards" him personally adopting the value of honesty, at least in his close relationships. Only *him* choosing honesty as a value (and having the mental toughness to stick to it) will change the heart if this behaviour... So, it's a long term thing, and its a "him, not you" thing. If you can tie the valye if honesty to ideas like faith and/or duty -- and therefore to self-image and identity, that will be a strong thing... But it's not exactly a 7 year old thing. Patience is a virtue!

[Amy in NH]

In our house the honest truth told about a problem or issue gets leniency while a lie told gets double-punishment. 

 

You stated in your OP that you avoid asking him even small questions because you know he will lie.  IMO, you are going about it backwards. 

 

1.  You want to catch him in the small truths and lies to apply rewards and punishments as often as possible in this case.  Use natural and logical consequences as much as possible for the punishments, and follow through every time. 

 

2.  Talk about how hard it is to do the right thing sometimes, and how important it is to do it anyway.  Offer a lot of praise when you catch him in a difficult truth. 

 

3.  I'd also be cutting back on his freedom - in a tomato staking way if necessary.  More supervision should cut back on the small mistakes and disobedience that lead to lies, and also allow you to know the truth before the words come out of his mouth.

 

 

[PeterPan]

Btw, you should have a password on your computers if you're wanting to control access.  Even on his, set up an admin account with a password to let you track him with parental controls, etc.  

 

[Amy in NH]

...My point is that the lies are petty. He would never cut someone's tires with a hack saw, but the lies bug me just the same. I think part of the problem is that he just does whatever he feels like doing whenever he feels like it regardless of who or what it will effect negatively. The lies are his solution for fixing the problems he creates. What kind of a punishment or consequence would you suggest? His idea when I asked him was no sweets until January. So unrealistic with holidays coming up and he would just sneak them anyways. 

 

It seems like you have a big problem.  I think the solution he came up with - no sweets until January - is a big punishment.  While it's an unreasonable punishment for eating someone's cookie, I think it is a fitting punishment for all the lying.  I'd probably have a long talk with him about the disobedience and lying, and then implement this punishment.  It will be hard for both of you - because you'll have to step up the parenting to make sure he doesn't have the opportunity to sneak them.  Being constantly reminded throughout the holiday season that he is being punished for lying (not verbally, just in the denial of special sweets) should make a big impression on him.

[mytwomonkeys]

I would not take all sweets away through January. I understand he suggested it, but I would not let that be his punishment.

 

Lying IMO is more of a heart issue. When my kids (really my son especially) struggles with behavioral issues I find there is often something deeper going on.

[PeterPan]

Now see we're just the opposite in our house.  We don't do extended punishments, because we feel the person should repent and be made right, with nothing hanging over their head.  No one wants to go through the holidays with something hanging over their head, and I wouldn't do it.  There can be a logical consequence, but losing sweets for a month isn't quite that to me.  I'd tell him no to the month of punishment and get one serious thing that deals with it and gets it over with.  In our house, that would involve a stern talking from Dad with a call to repentance and then follow-up teaching, such as Scripture memory.  

 

Dd once did a huge mask job/lie that included breaking something exceptionally expensive.  She lost a Christmas present over that, since it was right before Christmas. (The item had to be paid for/replaced, so the value of the toy went toward it.)  In your case though he's just sort of lawless, doing what he wants.  Takes a lot of energy to step up to that.  I'm sympathetic to that, because my ds is sort of lawless unless you step up, which takes a LOT of energy with him, oy.  Unless he has a neurological or glandular problem making him a compulsive liar, I would step up with less free time, more tomato staking, and the daily (or more as needed) recitation of the verses against lying.  You want to be prophylactic and heading it off at the pass, so it becomes something that's on his mind.  He's still young enough to want to please, but you have to TEACH him the way to go.  Some kids need a lot more teaching, lol.

[Lisa in Jax]

Lying is developmentally normal in early elementary school. It's not right, and it's still frustrating, but it's not *abnormal.* He'll likely outgrow it. 

 

Given the kinds of lies he's telling, I'd do two things:

 

1. When he lies and you *know* he's lying, say something like, "Oh, you lied just then. Soon, you'll be strong enough to tell the truth." (Then, don't lecture etc., just point out the lie and tell him you know he'll be able to stop lying when he's a bit older.) 

 

Consequence the lying in whatever way you normally would. He's not getting away with something; you're just not wasting your time lecturing. 

 

2. The next time he lies, wait until he asked you for something, then say, "Yes," to whatever it is -- then give him something *different.* 

 

For example, "Mom, can I have pancakes for breakfast?"

"Sure, son."

Give him eggs instead of pancakes.

"Mom, I asked for pancakes..." 

"Oh, son, I thought you were lying about what you wanted just like you lied earlier/yesterday (whenever). Darn."

 

Let him stew on that for a while. Don't lecture or explain further. Just let him eat eggs (or whatever "other" you gave him) and happily go on with your day.

 

Lisa

 

 

 

 

[bolt.]

In my opinion, most punishments are petty. Over-punishment, specifically, tends to undermine children instead of encouraging better behaviour, plus it can begin to erode the affection of the relationship.

 

The best you can hope for with a punitive response is the simple science of behaviourism. If the goal is transformation, you need a much more robust strategy that works towards personal change: preferably one that is aligned to developmental stages and customized for his individual characteristics.

 

Generally speaking, those strategies draw on a strong parental bond as a source if strength and motivation for the child -- which is why mixing in some punishments (for the behaviourist effect) is a temptation best avoided (or at least minimized).

 

I see the best external behaviour in children of two kinds of philosophy; the 'pure behaviourist' (as harsh as it needs to be to be effective, parent as police), and the 'pure supportive' (parents slightly helicopter-ish, firm but helpful, never adversarial). I see struggling parents when they are either incredibly lenient (neither firm nor supporting changes of misbehaviour, just not worrying about it) or trying sometimes to be transformational, but falling back on punishments often enough that the relationship isn't strong enough to really carry out the supportive helpful role that is required.

 

All that theory, just to say my thought, "You can follow punitive advice if you want to, but you need to expect a growing nessesitiy to rely on that tactic alone... Because kids who come to feel like you are their opponent rather than their helper are less likely to feel motivated towards good behaviour through simple teaching and encouragement." Since teaching and encouragement are (generally) more pleasant, more strategic, and more likely to work when no one is watching... That's why I recommend them.

[Farrar]

This is so tough.  I don't think the lies are that big a deal for now, but I agree that lying can become a big deal down the road.  I feel like there are two approaches and I'm not totally sure which is right.  On the one hand, you can say, it's natural for kids to go through a period of fibs - it's just testing boundaries and kids this age don't have as firm a sense of reality as we sometimes think they do.  He should be called out on it, but not overly punished for the lies themselves - treat them like they're not okay, but that you will always see them in the end - just give consequences for the actions that aren't okay.  I think taking a cookie can mean no cookies for a time.  The lying doesn't have to be involved.  The danger I think is that kids could just keep getting sneakier about the lies and keep doing them.

 

On the other side, give a consequence for the lies every time.  Really call them out on it.  Make it clear that lying is not okay.  I think the danger with that is that it becomes completely oppositional and a kid can get angrier and more bitter about it as time goes on.  It could make him feel like a criminal all the time and like you're just constantly policing him, suspicious.

 

I would tend toward the first method myself.  But my boys are like Melissa's.  They bizarrely never lie.  When they were littler, they were just painfully truthful sometimes.

[Dandelion]

I've only skimmed the previous responses, so maybe some of this has been mentioned already.  Below is what stood out to me.

 

 

I find myself not even asking him not to do certain things because, if I do, I know he will turn around and disobey me. 

 

Some kids don't do well with being told what *not* to do.  They respond better to being told *what* to do.   Instead of telling him "Don't do X" or "Stop doing Y", tell him what you'd like him to do instead.  My DS is like this.  If I say "Don't run in the house", he only hears "Run in the house" and keeps on running.  If I say "Looks like you have a lot of energy to get out. Please go run outside" he'll go outside.  It's like he can't hear the "Don't" at the beginning of the sentence.  

 

Try rephrasing your instructions to your DS and focus on what you want him to do (vs. what you don't want him to do).  I think the saying "You get more of what you focus on" is right on.  ;)

 

When I noticed out loud that the cookie was missing he chimed in saying how strange it was and that it was there last night. I told him I already knew it was him as the other two kids can't reach the top of the fridge. 

 

I would stop setting him up for lies.  When you noticed out loud that the cookie was missing (even though you already knew he did it), that was setting him up to lie.  I'm sure you didn't intend to set him up, but given his current pattern/habit of lying, that's what is going to happen.

 

IMO it would be better to say up front "I know you took the cookie.  We agreed it was for dad.  What can we do differently next time to make sure dad gets the cookie we set aside for him? And how can we make this right for dad?"  Identify the problem and ask your DS to be a part of the problem-solving/solution.  Also ask him how he would like to make it up to his dad.

 

At this point I am doing nothing. A cookie, or stained sofa, or even a broken laptop are not what bother me. I'm worried this habit of lying will fossilize into his character. 

What am I not seeing here? Or what has worked for other kids who had similar behavior issues? I'm willing to try anything. 

 

Another shift in approach that can be helpful is to make sure the rewards for telling the truth are greater than the rewards for telling lies.  

 

Also, I'd stop reacting to the lies.  What I mean by that is make sure the "energy" he gets from you for lying is minimal.  You should still respond to the lying, and address it, but don't react to it or get worked up over it in a big way.

 

Some kids thrive on parental energy and will seek it out at all costs, whether it's positive or negative.  If lying has elicited a big response in the past (i.e. you or your DH getting upset about the lying, spending a lot of time talking to your DS about the lying, coming up with big consequences for the lying, etc.) your DS may have gotten hooked on the big reaction he can get when he lies.  If you think that might be the case, minimizing your reaction to lying (but making a big deal out of when he's honest about something difficult), can reverse that trend.  My DS is one of those kids that goes for the biggest payoff in parental energy - I've had to shift my responses to react in a big way to positive things but give out little to no energy in my reaction to negative things.  It's counter-intuitive but it works with kids who are wired that way. 

 

[toawh]

DS7 goes through phases of lying, particularly about food issues. I don't think he means to be "bad", he just takes the easiest/most convenient approach. What works somewhat is telling him that I can no longer trust him and that I will be monitoring his every move. So if he lied about brushing his teeth, then I will make sure to watch him brush his teeth every time and tell him why I'm doing it. With something like the cookie, I think I'd say, well, I obviously cannot trust you to put this aside so I will have to lock it up or put it well out of your reach. It seems to be working -- it worked in the past, and now we're having a recurrence of the lying over the last few weeks (triggered by having to restrict food because of a stomach virus, which triggered DS's food issues related to adoption). Do you talk to DS about not being able to trust him anymore if he lies? 

I don't really punish him too harshly because I think that punishing him will cause him to lie more -- he knows he's done something he shouldn't do, and he lies to cover up, but if he knows he will be punished for his actions and his lying he will I think just become better at lying. I've encouraged him to own up to what he's done, praise him for being honest and give a mild consequence for the action. I'm also trying to remove temptation, so not leaving sweets within reach because I don't think he is capable at this age and with his food issues of withstanding temptation.  

 

After I read your reply I started thinking about the lying and, with a few exceptions here and there, ds's lies are mostly food related or laziness related. He does not lie about accidents that happen or that sort of thing. He's really thin and is going non-stop all day. I don't mind his eating between meals, but maybe I should make snacks more available so there is no need to crouch under the table eating. It's weird because I don't punish him for eating but for some reason he always tries to sneak food. It's not just sweets either I have explained to him a million times why I don't want him drinking vinegar on an empty stomach and that it's not sanitary to drink from the bottle I cook with, but then I find the drips leading from the bottle... The other stuff like telling me he brushed his teeth or hung his coat I will have to do with him or check myself before we go on to the next activity as I cannot trust it gets done, and I will explain this to him gently. At least he loves homework and it is truly always finished when I ask.

 

Ask him not how he should be punished, but how he can make things right (like buying dad a cookie from the store). :

 

I love this idea of not punishing but having him fix the situation "on his own". Buying daddy a cookie with his allowance will remind him without me "punishing him". I like the idea of real life consequences rather than punishments.

 

 

In my opinion, most punishments are petty. 

 

You put it so well. I think fixing his behavior is going to take a lot of effort on my part actually. Steering him toward ways to remedy the situations into which he puts himself. I'm the kind of mom that just rushes in and "fixes" everything. Maybe he needs a chance to clean up after himself a bit. it's good practice for real life. 

 

I feel hopeful. Going to buy that cookie tomorrow!

And for those who mentioned it I do have passwords on both computers, just had stepped out to hang the laundry and left it open and on. Will remember to let it hibernate when leaving.

[PeterPan]

Have you checked his weight and height and used the charts or calculators for percentiles?  That would let you know if he's unduly thin or dropping percentages.  He might be in a growth spurt.  My dd would sneak food.  Yes, keep more available.  Nutritionists usually want people to eat every 2 hours.  So he might benefit from a mid-morning snack, a mid-afternoon snack, and a bedtime snack.  We like bananas and dried fruit for our mid-morning snack.  They're very filling.  Avocado is always a winner at dinner, because it has good fats.

[SKL]

I think most kids will lie occasionally, but yes, this does sound like a pattern.  It sounds to me like he is insecure or has too much time on his hands.  (Assuming he isn't just really hungry.  ;))

 

I have a kid who was getting really bad about this (both lying and stealing) a year ago (age 6), then reformed, and now periodically I will see it happen again.  I wish there was a magic bullet.  I of course tried many things, and eventually it stopped, but I can't say for sure which of my actions (if any) made it stop.

 

Personally I'd take him aside and ask him to look inside himself and think about why he does this.  I'd do this *after* giving a consequence (if a consequence is going to happen), so he isn't afraid to admit what's going on.  Listen and let him think out loud.  If possible, try to respond without judgment regardless of what comes out of his mouth during this moment.

 

One thing that gave / gives me comfort.  When my kids' afterschool monitor saw how upset I was about this, she reassured me that it was not uncommon, and because my kids have plenty of other things to do / think about, she was certain it would not become a long-term thing.  She's worked with many kids over 25 years and seems pretty wise.  Does your son have any particular interests / hobbies / sports that he could spend more time on?  Maybe plan a long-term (not-for-school) project that is really interesting?

 

PS, I said this is again happening periodically here.  When it does, I don't allow any discussion.  I tell her that I know XYZ is true and I'm going to consequence (or not) based on XYZ.  I really try to prevent situations that would motivate them to lie.  I feel that this is something most kids do (to some degree) and most kids outgrow.  I remember being occasionally dishonest myself until I was about 12, and then I became the biggest prude ever.  ;)

[Melissa in Australia]

 

BTW, I think the hacksaw story is hilarious. I'll share it with DS in the morning.

It was hilarious. I don't know how DH managed to keep a straight face. I know I had to quickly leave the scene of the crime.

[Ausmumof3]

Your son drinks vinegar from the bottle???!

 

I have never heard of that before!

[Pippen]

Sometimes when my kids were in a pattern of problem behavior, what they really needed wasn't more discipline, but more one-on-one parent time. We'd start to be deliberate in getting out with that one child to do something like hang out at the bookstore, or spend special time together when siblings were napping or had gone to bed (ie sneaking a pizza with Dad). It tends to be inconvenient and a bit difficult to gather up the motivation to spend time with them at their most obnoxious point, but was well worth it.

 

Does your son have any difficulties following other types of instructions, such as schoolwork or those given by other people (such as a coach)?

[Guest submarines]

Sometimes when my kids were in a pattern of problem behavior, what they really needed wasn't more discipline, but more one-on-one parent time. We'd start to be deliberate in getting out with that one child to do something like hang out at the bookstore, or spend special time together when siblings were napping or had gone to bed (ie sneaking a pizza with Dad). It tends to be inconvenient and a bit difficult to gather up the motivation to spend time with them at their most obnoxious point, but was well worth it.

 

Does your son have any difficulties following other types of instructions, such as schoolwork or those given by other people (such as a coach)?

 

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

[Lisbeth]

oh my...so many of you are more lenient than I am. We are strict, but not harsh. My kids would have a field day with these non-consequences. Maybe they just have grifter souls or something.;)

[Ausmumof3]

Btw I didn't mean to sound dismissive there... I just don't have anything helpful to add that hasn't already been said

[toawh]

Sometimes when my kids were in a pattern of problem behavior, what they really needed wasn't more discipline, but more one-on-one parent time. We'd start to be deliberate in getting out with that one child to do something like hang out at the bookstore, or spend special time together when siblings were napping or had gone to bed (ie sneaking a pizza with Dad). It tends to be inconvenient and a bit difficult to gather up the motivation to spend time with them at their most obnoxious point, but was well worth it.

 

Does your son have any difficulties following other types of instructions, such as schoolwork or those given by other people (such as a coach)?

 

Okay, this is hard to hear but true. Since starting my work he gets less time with me and I know he craves it. When I'm home unintentionally my time is more devoted to the younger two as they are not self-sufficient as he is. It's very possible part of the issue to to get my focus on him. Thanks for reminding me of this.

 

Your son drinks vinegar from the bottle???!

 

I have never heard of that before!

 

Ha, yes. He is faithful to remind me when we run low that it needs to be added to the shopping list, and he gets me to try all different kinds. His favorite is Balsamic Vinegar, but they all taste wonderful to him. He'll put it on his meat and stuff too at meals much like other kids would use ketchup. I remember liking it plain at his age too. 

[Guest submarines]

Okay, this is hard to hear but true. Since starting my work he gets less time with me and I know he craves it. When I'm home unintentionally my time is more devoted to the younger two as they are not self-sufficient as he is. It's very possible part of the issue to to get my focus on him. Thanks for reminding me of this.

 

 

So here you go, your solution is right there. It is both incredibly simple in concept, and yet very difficult in application. :grouphug:  BTDT (for different issues.). He's 7. He's still little. Even if he's older and seems to be so capable, his behavior is telling you that he is not self sufficient.

 

[bluedotsmom]

Wiser moms than me have replied, but the comment below really struck me.  Please don't compare his heart, compassion, etc... to another sibling.  Maybe you mentioned something about saving a cookie for DH and younger ds heard it.

 

When we let our minds consider our 'bad' versus 'good' children, I believe we can do much harm.  They can read our emotions & body language far better than we want to believe.  We can all fall into this on occasion.

 

 

Last night we baked cookies and his younger brother thoughtfully put one aside for dh since they are his favorite. Ds offered to put the bowl in the kitchen for daddy and made a big display of saying how much daddy would enjoy it, etc..

 

It sounds like you may have found part of the issue & will try to spend more time with him.  Good luck on your journey!

[Plink]

I tend to answer lies with questions.

 

Are you afraid you are going to get in trouble?

Are we pretending right now?

Are you ready to tell the truth now?

 

I never let a lie slide, and I never ask them why. Lies are appropriate for little kids, but that doesn't mean that they are acceptable.

 

If they immediately recant their lies, then we simply deal with the original source of tension. If they refuse, then they serve one punishment for the lie, and then a second for the original offense.

[bolt.]

oh my...so many of you are more lenient than I am. We are strict, but not harsh. My kids would have a field day with these non-consequences. Maybe they just have grifter souls or something.;)

I'm sure your kids have gorgeous souls!

 

I just really want to share the "feel" of the moment when I realized that it was perfectly fine for kids to have a field day and experience non-consiquences... As long as whatever I was doing as a 'not-unpleasant discipline/discipleship moment' did indeed accomplish the goal of decreasing future misbehaviour. The freedom of that thought opened up worlds if creativity for my parenting! Wonderful stuff.

 

Absolutely not "lenient" -- just more interested in the future than the past (of any particular misbehaviour)... Focused on 'what do I want instead of this?' rather than 'how should I react to this?'

 

Anyhow, you put it so well into words that I felt like sharing, that's all.

[SKL]

I too have a very self-sufficient, independent second-grader and another, needier kid.  I have to remind myself that the higher-functioning kid still needs to feel worthy of my time.  She very much notices the difference in mom time and, though she understands why, she still hurts.  One can see a huge difference in her demeanor when I take the time to read with her (even though she doesn't need it) or just cuddle or play a silly game.

 

I hope this is what it is and that you are able to address it.  Good luck.