New ish here, reading WTM and now LOTS of questions *HELP*

[Above The Rowan]

Ooookay. 

 

So I pulled my two kids out of public school in the third week of September, and we have been in the "deschool and detox" phase. 

I had initially just assumed that I would 'unschool' as some of our most beloved friends are unschoolers of various degrees, our closest friends are quite on the radical end of the spectrum. It just felt like that was where I would naturally go. 

 

However, it's not where I'm finding myself headed. So when I started to realize that the kids AND myself were all wanting some structure, we started looking more into curricula etc. 

 

Anyhoots, long story short (there's a lot more I could ramble on about but that's the basic background) - I decided that I would read WTM. I had been lurky lurking on here since September pretty much, and what I was getting as far as the general idea behind classical education just seemed to be connecting with me. So I borrowed a copy from a friend, and am making my way through it. I had to stop though, part way through the section on the Grammar Stage (which is where both of my littles fall right now). 

 

Here is my confusion:

I have a 7.5 yr old son who is frighteningly behind on all things language related, for a whole host of reasons. But the point here is that he is NOT anywhere near 2nd grade level (which is the grade I pulled him out of). I have a 5 year old daughter who is bright and eager and I was just presuming she woudl sit in when she can on our history, science, etc and I will be starting her language arts program soon also. 

 

I have decided we will purchase Logic Of English - it seems to be what (after months of looking) will work best for his particular needs and struggles are in language. We will also begin my youngest on that as well quite soon I would think. 

 

So... where do I start with them as far as implementing the WTM "philosophy"? 

 

We are planning to use:

LoE for language arts

MM for math (already purchased, seems to be going well)

SOTW Vol 1 for history

RSO Level 1 for science

 

I love the basic idea behind classical education but now as far as what to start with and when, and keeping in mind our "catching up" that needs to be done? Where do I go? How can I work both my kids into a classical model while taking their wonky struggles into account?

 

Or does it matter really? I may "want" to do this the classical way, but maybe we can't start there - maybe we need to catch up and then reassess? Maybe we should just work on what we want to and to hell with whether it's classical or not?

 

I hate when I read something new, something that gets me SO excited, and then I'm like "but where does this fit in to my ACTUAL life?" I was truly inspired by what I've read so far. I was loaned a few of the "unschooling manuals" by my friends when I first pulled the kids - and all the way through them I kept "rebutting" them to my DH as I was reading. But WTM just made sense for me and for my kids and it's exciting. I just have no idea how to start it or make it work for us. 

 

I need a classical education coach. 

And I LOVE you if you have made it to the end of this rambly mess of words. If you can help, or offer anything at all, I'm forever grateful :) 

 

Thanks!

[Angie in VA]

I hate when I read something new, something that gets me SO excited, and then I'm like "but where does this fit in to my ACTUAL life?"

You will fit in well here. :D

 

And good coaches abound here. They will post. Promise.

[Starr]

What are you trying to catch up on? Your children are young and need a solid foundation. Start where they are and move at their pace. You want them to enjoy learning (the appeal of unschooling) My dc loved SOTW and the activity guide. Enjoy!

[Above The Rowan]

What are you trying to catch up on? Your children are young and need a solid foundation. Start where they are and move at their pace. You want them to enjoy learning (the appeal of unschooling) My dc loved SOTW and the activity guide. Enjoy!

 

Mostly his language. In a nutshell, he is almost 8 and can hardly read. Cannot spell, his handwriting is truly like its own language. At their PS, there was no phonetics in their LA program - just sight words and memorization. And he shows some classic signs of dyslexia. Also as a preschooler was in intensive speech therapy to get him to age level before he started school. So we're facing a few hurdles. I am confident we will catch him up, he's really eager to do it (after we deschooled the negative associations with language out of him a little). It just makes it weird for me to look at the schedule that is laid out in WTM and figure out where we fit into it. 

 

When I see the basic "layout" in WTM, for his age, I think "yeah no. he's nowhere near that". 

[Twigs]

… 

When I see the basic "layout" in WTM, for his age, I think "yeah no. he's nowhere near that". 

Start him at his level (not his ps grade or his age). Start at the beginning of 1st grade if you need to. That's the beauty of homeschooling. It is ok.  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug: 

[Pen]

I use an "eclectic approach", which includes classical aspects, but is more particularly whatever seems to work for my son--and in some areas where he is self-propelled as a learner we essentially are like unschoolers. My son had reading issues when I pulled him from school and we started homeschooling, so some of WTM did not fit him well.  Thus I used some of its ideas, but certainly not all. For us it was not just a matter of starting in with 1st grade materials as advocated by WTM, because he needed different approaches entirely in some cases including particularly in LA.

[Melissa in Australia]

welcome

 

When I first started homeschooling my oldest was 10, in grade 5 and could hardly read or write. He has Dyslexia.

 I started him right back at the beginning with phonics, and grade 2 for everything, grammar, writing, history, etc.  apart from Math and science, his strong points. same thing with his younger siblings, right back at the beginning. We then schooled year round, As soon as one book (year level) was finished, they would get a week off that subject then start right into the next book.

 

 

 

 

[sbgrace]

Welcome!

 

I am going to suggest you might also post on the learning challenges board.

 

My thoughts/advice (I have a student who also develops un-evenly and has special challenges):

If you suspect dyslexia, you take a dyslexia friendly approach. I think LOE is dyslexia friendly, right? Then you go at the pace of your student. Throw out the time tables. You can't rush development. Given the unschooling approach surrounding you, this will hopefully be easier than it might be otherwise. I hope. There really isn't any other option anyway. Start where they are and focus on building a strong foundation and tailoring approaches to their needs. Take the time it takes. I do school year round, with breaks for vacations and similar. This helps me not to stress about where we are or how long it is taking.

 

Side note: I'd make sure the the science and history are enjoyable experiences. You are likely going to find that other academic areas will be struggles at times. It helps to have "school work" that brings consistent enjoyment to balance. At least that has been my experience.

 

If you continue to struggle/begin to suspect more, consider testing. Information is almost always a good thing.

 

[Above The Rowan]

Welcome!

 

I am going to suggest you might also post on the learning challenges board.

 

My thoughts/advice (I have a student who also develops un-evenly and has special challenges):

If you suspect dyslexia, you take a dyslexia friendly approach. I think LOE is dyslexia friendly, right? Then you go at the pace of your student. Throw out the time tables. You can't rush development. Given the unschooling approach surrounding you, this will hopefully be easier than it might be otherwise. I hope. There really isn't any other option anyway. Start where they are and focus on building a strong foundation and tailoring approaches to their needs. Take the time it takes. I do school year round, with breaks for vacations and similar. This helps me not to stress about where we are or how long it is taking.

 

Side note: I'd make sure the the science and history are enjoyable experiences. You are likely going to find that other academic areas will be struggles at times. It helps to have "school work" that brings consistent enjoyment to balance. At least that has been my experience.

 

If you continue to struggle/begin to suspect more, consider testing. Information is almost always a good thing.

Yes I believe LoE is dyslexia friendly.

I spoke quite a bit with the woman who creates LoE and it just seems perfect for him. I suspect dyslexia but at a minimum he has similar language struggles so that's what we will work on. Testing is in the back of my mind but I want to see first if it was simply a matter of the public school not being the right learning style for him. We had him screened for ASD and got the results when he was 5 that he was not on the spectrum but they had said for some other issues to revisit it as he gets older. Some of his quirks he has outgrown and some have stuck around.

 

We are also planning to school year round :)

 

Thanks everyone. I wish we could just fit ourselves neatly into the WTM timeline as it just looks like how I want to teach them. But we are where we are and this is where we have to start from.

 

For all subjects Evan has been an active part if the selection of curriculum so while we may not be unschoolers, I like to think of us as democratic homeschoolers. I'm honest with them both about what i think they can do, what I feel they should do and then they get a say in how we go about it.

 

I will finish reading WTM and see how much we are able to implement. Or at a minimum it will be another resource that I am able to draw some inspiration from.

[PeterPan]

Mostly his language. In a nutshell, he is almost 8 and can hardly read. Cannot spell, his handwriting is truly like its own language. At their PS, there was no phonetics in their LA program - just sight words and memorization. And he shows some classic signs of dyslexia. Also as a preschooler was in intensive speech therapy to get him to age level before he started school. So we're facing a few hurdles. I am confident we will catch him up, he's really eager to do it (after we deschooled the negative associations with language out of him a little). It just makes it weird for me to look at the schedule that is laid out in WTM and figure out where we fit into it. 

 

When I see the basic "layout" in WTM, for his age, I think "yeah no. he's nowhere near that". 

Hi Phoenix, welcome to posting on the boards!   :)  Honestly, I think you should come over to the LC board and talk through your ds's issues, because there may be more going on than you realize.  You need to do the Barton pre-test to make sure there are no underlying skills that need to be addressed.  LOE is fine, but he may have things going on that need more powerful tools.  He may need to do LIPS or some other program.  I've taken it from my sig, but my ds5 has verbal apraxia.  If they've had a serious speech problem, it ABSOLUTELY affects how they're hearing sounds and processing language.  LOE is great, but it might not be what you need for him, not just yet.  First do the Barton pre-test.  Personally, I would buy what fits your dd for your dd and not try to combine them.  

 

Has he had a psych eval yet?  He's 7.5?  It's time.  I would get a full psych eval for dyslexia, etc., etc. ,BEFORE you start your interventions.  That way you have a baseline.  It's not fun to intervene and realize you made the problem harder to pin down.  Some really bright kids are extremely hard to sort out.  So I would DEFINITELY get some evals.  It will show you what's going on and help you pinpoint your efforts.  Right now you're just guessing, and I can tell you from personal experience you don't realize all the things BEYOND a label good evals will tell you.  He probably has a lot more going on than you realize (word recall, working memory, motor control, etc. etc.), and you don't have that info without evals.  So get them.  Don't wait till he's 12, struggle along teaching him, trying tons of curricula, and then finally get the evals.  Get them now.  You know you have the problems, so get them.  It's called a neuropsych eval.  Travel if you have to, and get someone who's well-regarded for dyslexia.  In fact, when I called Barton and talked with her (she'll talk with you!!) about our pre-test results, she told me to get somebody who had specific experience with ds's speech problem as well.  That speech issue very well could be affecting how he processes language, and there are a lot of nuances the psych can sort out.  Almost everything you'll do for the next 10 years with him is language-related, so you're going to WANT that info from the evals.  You want to know all those nuances about how he processes language so you can use that info to target and teach better.  

[TLC]

You have a wonderful plan, and your ds is motivated to start.  I think you'll be surprised how well it goes.  As a former public school teacher I can confirm that many students do not learn to read without using a structured phonics approach.  It wouldn't surprise me if your ds's struggles with reading turn out to be mostly an instruction problem.   Your LOE plan should provide the instruction he needs, then if he still struggles you can reassess.  Your dc should enjoy the science & history you have chosen. Go at his rate, come here for support, and remember a structured approach is preparing your dc for the excitement and joy of learning.

 

I read the other advice above after posting, and it may be helpful to evaluate, etc for LD.  But, most people do not learn to read without instruction.  Only you know if his public school experience provided him instruction in reading.  Unfortunately, some do not. 

[PeterPan]

Hehe, democratic homeschoolers, that's good!  Seriously, it's OK to find inspiration with the structure and orderliness of WTM but use that in a way that fits your kids.  Many bright 2E/SN kids have opinions on what they want to learn.  Sometimes they aren't interested broadly/superficially the way WTM wants them to be but want to dig in on one aspect or time period.  So it's OK to work with them!  Let WTM inform you on how skills can progress, but then stop and apply those skills more creatively (like I did with my dd) or to the particular topics they're interested in.  

 

You mentioned a disparity between level of function and age.  Don't think of it this way.  Go through WTM and find the K5 or 1st gr skills and just start at the beginning.  Apply them to material that fits the dc's level of maturity and interest.  So easier skill, more complex content.  Nothing says you have to do WTM straight!  

 

Also nothing says you have to do WTM exactly as it says.  For instance, when my dd was young, I'd tally all the writing amounts in WTM and then do the narrations other, more creative ways.  A narration is a narration whether it's a boring thing on a sheet of paper or a big scroll or a captain's log while you sit in your huge cardboard ship or a play to go with your homemade puppet, kwim?  So think out of the box.  You want them doing the skills, but that doesn't mean there's ONLY ONE WAY to get there.  It's ok to be more creative or more engaging.  Some kids really melt and die without creativity.  :)

 

Btw, when you have kids with any form of SN, it can help to transcribe for them and see if that changes what you're getting.  On that spelling, same deal, try more modalities.  Do it with tiles, a letter app on an ipad, orally backwards using Freed's techniques in RightBrained Children in a LeftBrained World etc.  When you connect the writing to the language, you're adding motor control, working memory, etc.  If those things are at all weak, they're going to pull down what seems to be coming out.  WWE for instance ties those things together.  Writing for spelling, the way LOE, SWR, and whatnot want you to ties writing and spelling.  You want to disconnect them and see what happens, at least until you know if there are any weaknesses there.  For instance my dd, when we got the psych eval, turned out to have motor control that was not automatic for handwriting.  She was 12.  No wonder writing to learn was not a good method for her!  We did SWR for years, oy, and I had no clue.  When the motor control is not automatic, it means their brains are focusing on that and having that eat up their processing speed and working memory rather than the content.  Oh mercy, total rabbit trail, because now we're back to the value of evals!  7 is NOT too young.  You'd much rather have that info now than thunk yourself later.  

 

It's also not too young to start typing.  You might and see what happens.  My dd was flopping at QWERTY, despite all our efforts, so we finally went to Dvorak in an act of desperation.  I found it looking for options for dyslexics.  It's a simple toggle, eliminates hunting and pecking because he won't have key labels to look at, and eliminates the bilateral issues of QWERTY.  I highly recommend typing and I highly recommend Dvorak if he (or anyone in your family) seems to have issues with typing.  Usually this stuff is genetic, unless he had oxygen deprivation at birth or some such thing causing it.  So if you can tell where it came from, then talk with them about their school experiences, etc. to see where potential problem areas are.

[PeterPan]

http://www.bartonreading.com/students_long.html#screen

 

This is the link for the Barton pretest.  I always have a terrible time finding it on the site.  Do it, because it can help you pinpoint holes that would require backing up to a different program first to work on phonemic awareness.  Some kids with speech problems are very glitchy on phonemic awareness, and a regular program may not be adequate.  The test is free and doesn't take long.

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

Don't discount a period of time needed to de-school - that is, for kids to mentally transition from ps to hs. That took us maybe half or more of the first year (7 years ago). With primary grade kids, it can manifest in all different ways, but in general, if you get signals that it's too much too soon, throttle back and know that in the overall ebb and flow, you'll still get it all done...maybe not in order....and one year won't look like another....but that's ok, and also kinda the point.

[Above The Rowan]

Don't discount a period of time needed to de-school - that is, for kids to mentally transition from ps to hs. That took us maybe half or more of the first year (7 years ago). With primary grade kids, it can manifest in all different ways, but in general, if you get signals that it's too much too soon, throttle back and know that in the overall ebb and flow, you'll still get it all done...maybe not in order....and one year won't look like another....but that's ok, and also kinda the point.

 

I knew we'd need time to deschool, but how MUCH? I had completely underestimated. 

I (and everyone around Evan) had pegged him as the kid who would freak out without the structure of school and expectations etc. And for a week or two after we pulled them, he did resist and was all sorts of angry about not doing anything. I at one point thought "this was a mistake, he needs school" but we stuck it out. Now, he's fully in deschool/detox mode. And the amazing things it has done for him has floored me. He is flourishing the more time that we put between he and school. His anxiety and stress level are almost non existent now, he's excited about finding new things to learn, he's ASKING to read better - he has things he wants to read on his own and can only read a portion of the text so he is motivated to get to a certain point. 

 

Now, he's asking to start certain things: he wants to read, write, we talked about using cursive instead of printing and he's on board and thinks he would love that. He wants to start "doing science" and "doing more math" (he's a VERY mathy kid). 

 

In the new year, we're planning to start adding more structure, but we will still take it in small steps. We all need a bit more structure, and both kids are asking for it (I have been focusing on Evan, my oldest, but Abby is still here and is BEGGING for more work). 

 

 

 

I also want to say that I LOVE this board. I have gotten so much good info in here to think about and chew on, so thanks so much everyone :) 

[Harriet Vane]

Just wanted to encourage you with two thoughts:

 

First, Elizabeth's advice is spot on.

 

Second, remember that slow and steady wins the race. You'll find that the process of putting in the time each day works a magic all its own.

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

I knew we'd need time to deschool, but how MUCH? I had completely underestimated. 

I (and everyone around Evan) had pegged him as the kid who would freak out without the structure of school and expectations etc. And for a week or two after we pulled them, he did resist and was all sorts of angry about not doing anything. I at one point thought "this was a mistake, he needs school" but we stuck it out. Now, he's fully in deschool/detox mode. And the amazing things it has done for him has floored me. He is flourishing the more time that we put between he and school. His anxiety and stress level are almost non existent now, he's excited about finding new things to learn, he's ASKING to read better - he has things he wants to read on his own and can only read a portion of the text so he is motivated to get to a certain point. 

 

Now, he's asking to start certain things: he wants to read, write, we talked about using cursive instead of printing and he's on board and thinks he would love that. He wants to start "doing science" and "doing more math" (he's a VERY mathy kid)

 

 

It is cool to watch, though, huh?

 

If you have SOTW, I'd get the activity guide, into which you can dive as deeply as you want to (or not).

 

I'm also a huge fan of Dr. Nebel science for the same reason -- lot's of ways to branch and pursue and explore (although Nebel is definitely NOT a plug-n-play science curriculum, and does require teacher prep.).

 

DD is mathy, and we've stuck with the original Saxon editions with great success.

 

There are a gazillion cursive sources, but ZanerBloser has a freebie page generator we still use to practice.   Free is good.

[Above The Rowan]

It is cool to watch, though, huh?

 

If you have SOTW, I'd get the activity guide, into which you can dive as deeply as you want to (or not).

 

I'm also a huge fan of Dr. Nebel science for the same reason -- lot's of ways to branch and pursue and explore (although Nebel is definitely NOT a plug-n-play science curriculum, and does require teacher prep.).

 

DD is mathy, and we've stuck with the original Saxon editions with great success.

 

There are a gazillion cursive sources, but ZanerBloser has a freebie page generator we still use to practice.   Free is good.

 

The good thing is, we haven't purchased anything yet. We just recently all came to a plan, and I'll be ordering some stuff to have here by the time we want to start when the holidays are over. 

 

We're using Math Mammoth and it seems to be working well so far, but I find it dry and awkward to instruct. But the kids both seem to like it quite a bit. 

 

I'll check out the other suggestions you gave. 

And it is definitely cool to watch - he is like a version of himself that I have never been able to see before. 

 

Back to WTM - - I think I like most the fact that at each stage, all the learning is interconnected. I can still follow that same model, and make all of our subjects intertwine when they can. His spelling and reading are something we need to work on, but otherwise I am sure we can find a way to make the classical model work for us in some ways. 

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

I'll throw out one more link -- ReadTheory.  I just got it from DW's colleague (PS eng teacher, 6-8), and we're kinda testing it out -- and it's free.  I loved First Language Lessons for our early grades.

[PeterPan]

Phoenix, just for an interesting perspective, you might go read (or download if necessary) The Right Side of Normal.  I don't agree with everything she says, but it might give you a fascinating take on why he craves structure but is blossoming now, with more room to do what suits him.  

 

Craving structure is typical of kids with EF (executive function) deficits, and being hyper-creative is typical of kids that are VSL/right-brain dominant/pick your label.  It's sort of a trick to provide the structure they need to be comfortable while giving them the freedom to pursue the things they really engage with.  It will be a journey for you.  :)

 

[Above The Rowan]

Phoenix, just for an interesting perspective, you might go read (or download if necessary) The Right Side of Normal. I don't agree with everything she says, but it might give you a fascinating take on why he craves structure but is blossoming now, with more room to do what suits him.

 

Craving structure is typical of kids with EF (executive function) deficits, and being hyper-creative is typical of kids that are VSL/right-brain dominant/pick your label. It's sort of a trick to provide the structure they need to be comfortable while giving them the freedom to pursue the things they really engage with. It will be a journey for you. :)

I will check that out.

I am surprised though by how LITTLE he seems to be craving structure the way we had assumed he would.

 

Thanks for the recommendation - parenting Evan has been a journey from the get go lol. The typical was never for him - intense baby, intense toddler, absolutely the most empathic child I know, and a deep thinker so the typical answers you give to children are never adequate for him.

 

I can see that homeschooling will be the same with my kids - always interesting and never typical. It's exciting though!

[PeterPan]

That intensity can be from high IQ, a SN, or both (2E).

[Jackie]

I wish we could just fit ourselves neatly into the WTM timeline as it just looks like how I want to teach them. But we are where we are and this is where we have to start from.

 

 

I just wanted to say I got a good laugh from this bit. It was a sympathetic kind of laugh :)

 

I'm not much help to you in the advice department. But I also have a child who won't ever fit neatly into the WTM timeline. In fact, the more I read here, the more I realize that it seems more rare to have a child that fits the timeline fully than to have one a bit more all over the map!

 

You're already choosing curricula from different publishers rather than attempting an all-in-one boxed curric, which was one of the first lessons I had to learn. The other thing that worked for my daughter and I was to add in one thing at a time rather than jumping in with both feet. We started with literacy/reading. When we hit our stride with that, we added fine motor. As that became routine, we added math. And so on. If you start to get overwhelmed, remember that you don't have to start everything at once - adding a little at a time and then a little more can be easier to adjust to.

[Alicia64]

I would start with lots of daily read alouds. My favorite book to start with is Jim Trealease's the Read Aloud Handbook.

 

It really explains why reading aloud is so awesome -- it builds background information, increases vocab, gives a shared experience etc.

 

He also explains the benefits of reading aloud into a "child's" 20's or beyond!

 

Alley

[Above The Rowan]

I would start with lots of daily read alouds. My favorite book to start with is Jim Trealease's the Read Aloud Handbook.

 

It really explains why reading aloud is so awesome -- it builds background information, increases vocab, gives a shared experience etc.

 

He also explains the benefits of reading aloud into a "child's" 20's or beyond!

 

Alley

 

Oh this looks like a good book - and its in stock in my local Chapters store! I'll have to go check it out. 

I am intrigued about reading aloud into your adulthood. I think that's worthwhile. I know I have a hard time reading aloud and retaining what I'm reading - I always read quietly and to myself, and now when I read aloud to my kids its like my ability to comprehend gets overshadowed by the reading out loud. Interesting. Thanks for the recommendation!

[AtMyWhitsEnd]

Pheonix, I'm so glad you posted this! I am in the same boat.  I am planning on pulling my kids out of public school at Christmas break.  I'm starting to feel a little overwhelmed.  I'm glad to know I am not alone out there. I have so many questions and concerns too.

[Melissa in Australia]

Just remembered another thing I did when I first started homeschooling mine.

 what I did was  started off with the core subjects of Mathematics, reading and  then added a new subject in each week. So I then added phonics, then grammar, then spelling then history and so forth. That way both the students ( my children)and I had time to get familiar with each text and we all were not completely overwhelmed.

[ElizabethB]

Before you buy something expensive or do any testing with your 7 year old, try my remedial methods.  

 

I've remediated hundreds of children over the  last 19 years, if they are coming out of schools that teach sight words and other whole word elements, they often have symptoms of dyslexia but are actually suffering from poor teaching methods, not true dyslexia.  With a lot of nonsense words and a bit of spelling and a heavy dose of phonics, you can quickly get them up to speed.  Most of my students gain a grade level or two after working through the program on my how to tutor page, and can work through it in 10 hours or less.

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/howtotutor.html

 

It is free, just print things.  If you are Christian, even easier is to just watch my free online phonics lessons with him.  They use the book of Romans.  The things on my how to tutor page have optional scripture verses that can be used.

 

One fun thing to start soon is my game, you can play it with your children at first and then just help keep score and make sure they are sounding out words correctly.  It uses both real and nonsense words, which helps break the guessing habits caused by sight words.

 

Students with underlying speech difficulties, even ones that have been remediated, usually do better with a marked print.  I like the 1908 Webster's speller and the 1879 McGuffey readers, they have been reprinted and are also free online from Gutenburg Press.  They are the ones with orange and blue covers, not the older ones with brown covers.