Anyone else taking Intermediate Number Theory AoPS online class?

[lewelma]

DS just started today and is pretty excited.  It is his first online class and so far so good.  Just curious if there is any other hive kids in his class.

 

Ruth in NZ

[quark]

Kiddo is signed up too. It's been a while since he's taken an AoPS online class so he forgot that his answers won't always appear/ be chosen to appear on the screen. :tongue_smilie:

[lewelma]

Are you serious!?!?!  That is soooooo cool.  DS only said hello and thanks so far.  :lol:  But I think he will be motivated next time, because he only got a yellow bar for participation!

[Tattarrattat]

DS was there as well  :huh:

[quark]

Are there colored bars for participation level? I learn something new about AoPS ALL the time lol.

[Tattarrattat]

Are there colored bars for participation level? I learn something new about AoPS ALL the time lol.

 

 

Yes, it's the same as homework. Red for missed class, then I think yellow, green and blue depending on the participation level. Some teachers tend to include more kids and post more answers to the same question, some not.

[quark]

Thanks T! DS's last AoPS class was 3 years ago (C&P). Things have changed a bit it seems.

[lewelma]

The class runs for us from 1:30 - 3 on Friday! Don't you love the date line. I am embarrassed to say that it took me a full 30 minutes to make sure we had the right time before I paid the money. Day light savings is the opposite direction here which really mucked me up. We sprung forward while the USA fell back, but this does not happen in the same weekend.

[lewelma]

DS was there as well :huh:

What did he think about it? Ds told me it was hard.

[quark]

Kiddo attempted 5 or 6 of the homework questions today. Spent almost 90 minutes, submitted answers twice and only got one right. :hurray: I'm so happy lol.

 

ETA: hit submit too quickly. That's crazy about the time diff Ruth. It would make me go :willy_nilly: too. In fact I keep rechecking the PT vs ET diff despite being only 3 hours off. :001_smile:

[Tattarrattat]

What did he think about it? Ds told me it was hard.

 

I asked him, and he said they taught something that he had learned before but had barely used, in more depth. He said it makes him work hard.

[kiwik]

I find the time distances really confusing. First I have to work out which US time zone it is, then how many hours ahead we are at the moment. Once I calculated it backwards and figure something would be mid-day Sunday and it turned out to be late Tuesday. Oh well.

[quark]

Would something like this timezone converter help? I liberally use these because I have family all over the world. It's also handy that in some laptops, you can set the laptop clock for several (I think up to 3?) different countries so that it can show you instantly what time it is where. Or you can customize a widget like this one and park it on your blog or other website.

 

I find these tools easy for world time zones. It's remembering US time zones (I moved here in my 30s, didn't grow up here) when I'm away from my computer that stumps me. :)

[lewelma]

So first week is done and the homework took quite a lot of time.  10 hours to do 8 out of 11 questions (he skipped 3 short answers), plus 2 hours to write up the proofs in latex.  Is this to be expected?

 

I'm asking because he is doing this as a summer school course, and I'm not sure he is committed to 12 hours per week, plus I am assuming it is going to get harder and possibly take even more time.

[Tattarrattat]

So first week is done and the homework took quite a lot of time.  10 hours to do 8 out of 11 questions (he skipped 3 short answers), plus 2 hours to write up the proofs in latex.  Is this to be expected?

 

I'm asking because he is doing this as a summer school course, and I'm not sure he is committed to 12 hours per week, plus I am assuming it is going to get harder and possibly take even more time.

 

Ruth, 

 

Based on our experience, I think it's normal to spend that much time on weekly homework, maybe even more sometimes when DS got stuck on a problem, and he usually insisted on solving all of them. Over the years, he has learned to seek help on the message board, and occasionally solve together with a couple of classmates using the open classroom. When he first took AoPS classes, he worked on his own. But for the most recent classes, he got better at asking questions. 

 

For the first week's assignment, he spent many hours each day for the past two days working on them, and a little bit on Monday. He's now writing the second proof and has one short answer problem left. We have a busy schedule today, hopefully he will be able to finish them soon. 

 

If they all continue with this class, maybe we can have all three kids(yours, quark's and mine) work together sometimes in the classroom. I think AoPS encourages kids to work together. In the past, if it was a proof problem, my son usually wrote a note at the end saying he had worked with his classmates on this problem (or his mom when I helped him a couple of times).

 

I understand that 10 hours and more a week in summer on one course seems quite a lot. We now try to avoid taking AoPS classes in summer because DS prefers some free time during the break. It'd be nice though, if all three kids take the class together:)  I asked DS if he wanted to continue, it seems he wants to continue, at least for now. He took a peek at next two weeks' assignments, and said  they didn't look harder(actually might be a little easier). It was only a glance, he might find it much harder later on:) I think the difficulty level depends on the specific topics, not necessarily on the order of the topics.

[quark]

Kiddo has spent about 5+ hours so far and done about 4 questions I think, including one of the proofs. I don't believe he will be able to finish his homework at this pace. He also has two other classes for math both with homework and one of them with an equally tight schedule. He has to study for a physics exam and prep for a linguistics competition as well so I have no illusions that he is going to find it easy with this class. I am completely open to him not doing well in this class as long as he does the best he can. I hope he will be okay with it being so hard though. And we have been discussing redoing the class after he finishes the last week just to give him a better grasp at the material the second time around. But you know what? I'm SO happy! I am glad he has this opportunity to work on something really hard for him. :) All his other classes, although requiring effort, are not hard for him at all.

 

DS also said the same thing about week 2 looking easier. He refuses to ask for help from the forums. I've been gently nudging but am leaving the decision up to him. It's good that you mentioned your DS's experience, T. I will be hopeful that kiddo will learn it's okay to ask when you need to. He's completely fine asking his mentor for help for the other math classes but is not comfortable asking the AoPS folks, I have no idea why.

 

Does anyone know if the group theory class will be offered at all? I took a look at the upcoming textbook's table of contents and there are a number of topics there that kiddo is currently covering with his mentor and enjoying very much. It will be awesome if he could try the group theory class in 2015 because his current class with his mentor is probably one level easier and it will be good for him to be challenged higher in that area.

 

So glad for AoPS. Really, really glad. Nothing like a truly tough class to keep you well-grounded. :D

[quark]

T, I forgot to reply about your idea for the kids to work together. Thanks for suggesting it! I will ask kiddo again from time to time. Right now, he's still in doing-it-solo mode. He might change his mind if it continues to be super hard. ;)

 

By the way, is there info somewhere on how and when the longer response/ proof questions are marked?

[lewelma]

Thanks for the feedback.  It has made ds much more comfortable knowing his experience this week is normal.  For some reason we thought there was only 5 hours of homework per week.

[Tattarrattat]

Kiddo has spent about 5+ hours so far and done about 4 questions I think, including one of the proofs. I don't believe he will be able to finish his homework at this pace. He also has two other classes for math both with homework and one of them with an equally tight schedule. He has to study for a physics exam and prep for a linguistics competition as well so I have no illusions that he is going to find it easy with this class. I am completely open to him not doing well in this class as long as he does the best he can. I hope he will be okay with it being so hard though. And we have been discussing redoing the class after he finishes the last week just to give him a better grasp at the material the second time around. But you know what? I'm SO happy! I am glad he has this opportunity to work on something really hard for him. :) All his other classes, although requiring effort, are not hard for him at all.

 

DS also said the same thing about week 2 looking easier. He refuses to ask for help from the forums. I've been gently nudging but am leaving the decision up to him. It's good that you mentioned your DS's experience, T. I will be hopeful that kiddo will learn it's okay to ask when you need to. He's completely fine asking his mentor for help for the other math classes but is not comfortable asking the AoPS folks, I have no idea why.

 

Does anyone know if the group theory class will be offered at all? I took a look at the upcoming textbook's table of contents and there are a number of topics there that kiddo is currently covering with his mentor and enjoying very much. It will be awesome if he could try the group theory class in 2015 because his current class with his mentor is probably one level easier and it will be good for him to be challenged higher in that area.

 

So glad for AoPS. Really, really glad. Nothing like a truly tough class to keep you well-grounded. :D

 

quark, seems your DS has quite a lot on his plate:) My DS feels the same way about AoPS classes being harder than his other classes, including the AP chemistry he's taking. I backed up all his course work at the end of all the AoPS classes he took. This way, he can access to the materials in the future.

 

As for the group theory class, According to this link, it was scheduled for Fall but got canceled. 

 

 

T, I forgot to reply about your idea for the kids to work together. Thanks for suggesting it! I will ask kiddo again from time to time. Right now, he's still in doing-it-solo mode. He might change his mind if it continues to be super hard. ;)

 

By the way, is there info somewhere on how and when the longer response/ proof questions are marked?

 

 

Don't worry, whenever he feels comfortable. It took my kid quite a while before he felt comfortable to post. They do offer the option to post anonymously on their message board. The time it takes them to grade the proof problems varies from time to time, depending on the graders' work load. Sometimes it takes less than a week, occasionally it may take longer than that. They will notify you by email once all of them are graded.

 

DS finished the rest of the problems earlier today. Will see how second week goes.

[quark]

Oh my T, your DS is a force of nature! :) Mine hasn't finished his homework but we are quite ready to accept that this might be the case for this course. It will be interesting to see how much kiddo grows from this experience. :) Thank you for clarifying how grading the proofs works!

[Tattarrattat]

Currently this is the only math course he's taking. So I guess he can afford more time on this:)

[lewelma]

We are s

               i

                 n

                    k

                        i

                          n

                              g

 

Kill me now.

[Tattarrattat]

:grouphug:  That's a familiar feeling we've had from time to time since my DS started taking his AoPS courses. Just take a deep breath, you will be fine.  Mine is also working on this week's problems right now.

 

Not sure how your DS usually posts questions. When you ask a question on the message board, it'd be better if you use the message board tab from the class overview page and fill the blank under " Ask a question on message board". This way, not only the board moderators can see the question, but the global moderators can also see it and sometimes provide faster help. 

 

Also, if he needs a study buddy, mine is available:) Or if he checks in the classroom sometimes, there might be already a couple of kids there. My DS and another kid occasionally chat about random math problems and maybe also off topics there in the evenings.

[daijobu]

Are you using the Intro NT book?  We're just finishing chapter 6, working at her own pace at home, no online class.  I had to laugh about the formula for finding the product of a number's divisors, described on p. 101.  I mean, it's pretty cool, and a lot of what we learn in math is not particularly relevant to anything, but finding the product of a number's divisors seems an exercise that's particularly lacking any real-world utility.  But as I said, it is a really cool way to look at numbers!  

 

Little did I know that in chapter 6 we would learn how to find the highest power of a prime number in the factorial of some other large number.  One of those burning questions I've always harbored, lol!  

[quark]

Are you using the Intro NT book? 

 

This is the Intermediate level. No textbook yet.

[quark]

Mine is doing better because...........wait for it.........he was doing SO VERY BADLY at first. :lol: But his better might still be worse than other kids in the class. For once I see him really stumped with math of his own choosing and it gives me so much joy. It makes me feel like such an evil mom but I know it's so good for him.

 

ETA: when I signed DS up for this I forced myself to think about it as an experiment and purely as a learning experience. I guessed it was going to be one of the hardest things he's ever done and that has really helped me to not freak out. I also have my expectations on a very low level atm. I know I will be hitting the chocolate much more often otherwise. Just wanted to let you guys know that in case you're wondering why I have so many smileys in this thread. It's not because I'm celebrating DS doing well but more to help me, convince me, to think of it as a positive thing that he's stumbling and that he really will be okay. :grouphug:

[cjzimmer1]

I've been researching this class for my oldest for next year.  I was pretty sure it would be a good fit.  But he will be taking AP chem next year and he's the kind of kid who has a melt down when something is so hard that he can't figure it out (AP Calc BC and AP Stats have been a test of endurance for me), now I'm worried this will overload him.  FOr those of you with kids in the class I'd love to hear continuing reports as you progress through the class, if you find it worth it or just too over the top.

[lewelma]

You might not have realized that Quark and my son are much younger than yours.  I would think that a kid who has do AP calc and AP stats would find Intermediate Number Theory easier than my son has found it, not because of the stuff learned in those classes, but because of having more mathematical maturity.  

 

My son has made it to the top of green or into blue, every single week, so the work is doable.  Depending on the week, he is doing 12 to 20 hours.

 

Ruth in NZ

 

 

 

 

[quark]

Edited for privacy.

 

Perhaps you could have him preview the Intro to NT book if he hasn't done that yet? If it is too easy, you could return it within the return policy window. If it isn't, then you will have a better idea of placement. In addition, there are Are You Ready? and Do You Need This? pre- and post-tests to help you decide. Kiddo could only solve about half of the Are You Ready? questions btw, but he was determined to take this Intermediate course (he had already read and tried many of the Intro problems) and this is why we signed up for this level.

 

Good luck!

 

ETA: Link to pre- and post-tests

[Tattarrattat]

Stephanie, mine loves this course, challenging yet fun! Today we actually just checked the number theory class offered by Stanford OHS to see if that'd be a good follow up down the road though the price tag of that one seems way too high (I remember Kathy in Richmond mentioned that one before.) My DS is also taking AP Chem this year and found both manageable. He started Chem first, got familiar with the pace and format before he added Inter NT a few months after. He's concurrently taking AoPS Precal which overlaps with NT for about 8 weeks. Based on the time he's spent on his homework, I think for him, Precal is relatively easier than this NT course, at least for the first a few weeks of Precal.

 

As quark mentioned, maybe have your DS take the pre and post tests, let him try out the class and get a feel of the pace and difficulty level. Has he taken any other AoPS courses before? If he's familiar with the format, it might be a little easier for him to handle this one. This one lasts only a few months while AP Chem lasts a whole year. The next NT class starts in May and ends in Aug. If he takes it in Summer, then it will be done before AP Chem starts. This way maybe he won't be overloaded.

[lewelma]

I should clarify. My DS LOVES this class! The first two weeks were all tears because it was just to hard, but he rose to the challenge. Then we had another set back a couple of weeks ago where he had to spend 20 hours to finish the work, but he did it!

 

One of the things I have loved about the class over using the books alone is the human aspect. He wakes every morning, and first thing he looks to see if anyone has responded to his questions. He now talks about arch enemies and his nemesis. He was extra super excited when he caught one of the all knowing sages in an error. Last night he was working in my room until 11 pm, and woke up to tell me about this proof he wrote ( took him a full hour to go through it with me). It has been such a positive experience that he will be taking intermediate algebra starting in three weeks.

 

The main thing I would suggest to people is taking intermediate algebra and intermediate counting BEFORE intermediate number theory. I think this would have made the transition easier for Ds.

[cjzimmer1]

Thanks for the extra feedback.  We have not taken any AOPS classes.  I didn't find out about them until a couple of years ago and by then he was already taking a calc class at home with plans for AP Calc and AP stats the next 2 years.  I had pretty much discarded the idea of them because it seemed like all the AOPS classes would come before Calc and I worried about how is transcript would look if he took an "easier math" for his last 2 years of high school.  I asked on another board and they assured me that Number Theory was NOT an easy class and could appropriately fit where I'm having him take it.  But then I worried maybe it was too much.  I did miss that your kids are younger than mine so hopefully that will help my guy out.

 

I have the placement tests printed but he hasn't had the time to take them yet because he's had competitions every weekend for the past month so his schoolwork has been compressed into 4 days each week so that he could travel without taking homework with him.

 

I looked at the summer classes, but between work obligations, church camps and National competitions we just aren't home enough for us to do schoolwork.  I'm hoping to catch a class starting in Aug/Sept if possible.

[lewelma]

Algebra 3 started today, and it looks like we have definitely done the classes out of order.  I know it is the last week of Number theory and the first week of Algebra 3, but the difference in problem level cannot be overstated.  For Alg 3, DS solved all of the problems (not proofs yet) this afternoon in about 4 hours and is already in green, whereas in week 1 of Inter number theory he required 15 hours to just get into yellow (including proofs and lots of tears).   AoPS does not list any prereqs for Intermediate number theory, except intro number theory, and I am thinking about letting them know that they should rethink the prereqs.

 

So today was 7.5 hours of math..... 2 hour num theory homework, 1.5 hour alg class, and 4 hour alg homework.  plus just a tiny bit of mandarin because I insisted. 

 

He is shooting for a blue overall, but will really have to do well this week to pull it off, and this week is tough!  If they do a moving average, he is fine because all of his bad marks are in the first few weeks.  He has definitely risen to the challenge.  And I am super proud.

 

He is sad to realize that your two kids will not be in his next class.  It is much bigger (as in 3x) and much more chatty.

[quark]

Thank you for the feedback Ruth! Yes, I was wondering the same about number theory. I think there needs to be one level between intro NT and inter NT, or perhaps they should group the latter with their calculus level courses in their marketing emails instead of with other intermediate courses? I wonder what inter CP will be like.

 

I saw that the alg3 class is in full capacity. I don't think they waitlisted anyone for inter NT right? That explains why inter NT felt "smaller". I remember kiddo's intro CP 3+ years ago being a larger class as well.

 

I will miss looking out for their three names appearing in a row. Did you guys notice that? Our three are always listed alphabetically together in the NT classroom. :001_wub:

[lewelma]

We were very disappointed that the intermediate counting class does not dove tail with algebra 3.  not sure my ds will be able to do 2 classes at once.  sigh.  Hopefully they will run one from Dec to Feb - that would be ideal for us.

 

 

[Tattarrattat]

Ruth, DS thinks Algebra 3's difficulty level increased quite a lot later on, which is typical for AoPS courses. Inter NT is probably the exception, where the difficulty level is kind of consistent throughout. To him, Alg 3 was one of the challenging courses he's taken so far. As for the class size, I wish in general AoPS classes could be smaller too. But we noticed that it is not unusual that a few weeks in, the number of students who regularly come to the classroom settles to much a smaller number.

[lewelma]

Ruth, DS thinks Algebra 3's difficulty level increased quite a lot later on, which is typical for AoPS courses. Inter NT is probably the exception, where the difficulty level is kind of consistent throughout. To him, Alg 3 was one of the challenging courses he's taken so far. As for the class size, I wish in general AoPS classes could be smaller too. But we noticed that it is not unusual that a few weeks in, the number of students who regularly come to the classroom settles to much a smaller number.

 

I'm actually really glad to hear this.  The difficulty of inter NT has really caused him to work differently.  Little bits morning, noon, and night.  And weekends!  And he is loving it.  Almost like, when he is bored, he just does math rather than pestering his younger brother. :001_smile:

[bugfree]

 
I love the Nov-Feb classes because they get a break at Thanksgiving, Christmas and NewYears.  It made the classes a bit more managable.