Math and Future Engineering Majors

[Mom2boys]

After reading the thread on "How Much Math is Necessary for a STEM Major", I have a question regarding my ds. Can a student who does not excel at math do well as an engineering major? My ds loves robotics, and would like to work in this field some day, so he wants to major in engineering. However, math has always been his weakest subject and he is finding his Honors Physics class to be pretty challenging. He took the ACT this fall, and his math score was the lowest of the four sections. I'm concerned that majoring in engineering isn't a realistic goal for him. What do you all think?

 

Background: Ds is currently a junior and is finishing Algebra 2 in the next month or so, with the goal of taking precalc at the community college next semester. He plans to take calculus there his senior year. He has earned A's and B's in high school math so far, but we use Teaching Textbooks with automated grading, which gives the student two chances to answer each problem. I think his grades would be lower without the second chance option. 

 

 

[Teachin'Mine]

No btdt, but my thoughts are that an engineering major will not survive if they're not really good at math.  But that doesn't mean that a 10th grader can't get good enough at math to major in engineering.  Is he a weak math student because of the curricula, or is it a "natural" weakness?   Does he enjoy math?   I would wait to see how he does with the community college math classes.  If he does well, then I would think he'd be fine to give it a go.  From what I hear, engineering is one of the most challenging majors, so even those who are good in math don't necessarily last.  I would think that being able to work hard and persist would be the more important traits.  And I would also think that it would be a lot more fun if someone enjoyed math.  IOW, it's probably too soon to tell.  Some on here have had students who didn't become good in math until college.   Physics would be hard for him if he struggles with the math.   I'd make sure that he's getting the concepts well as he can improve his math over time.

[Joules]

I wouldn't rule it out yet, if that is his passion.  I spent years tutoring students in math and physics at an engineering college.  There are definitely some who enjoy (and are better at) the engineering aspect more than the math, but they can still be successful.  Some end up in tutoring for every single math class and have to work much harder, but it's worth it if they love what they are doing.

 

There are also vastly different levels of "a student who does not excel at math."  Does he "get" it and it just takes him longer?  Does he never really feel like he understands it?  A student finishing Algebra II as a junior with an A/B average doesn't raise red flags.  And is his ACT math really low or were his other scores just higher?  Keep in mind the ACT (unlike the SAT) covers advanced algebra, trig and some topics that are in pre-calc (depending on the curriculum).  His score may be relatively lower because he just hasn't had the material.

 

I'd say take the pre-calc and a semester of calc before you let him rule out engineering.  (Actually, I'd leave the door open through freshman or sophomore year of college, but I think it's fine to discover your passion once you are at college.  But in that case, you might not want to consider schools that only have engineering programs.)

[Twigs]

… with the goal of taking precalc at the community college next semester. …

 

I will let others with more experience address your other concerns, but is the precalc taught in an accelerated summer session? (All the summer math classes at my local cc are accelerated - the same material taught in 15 weeks in fall and spring condensed down to 5 weeks in the summer.)

 

If it is accelerated, I would suggest strongly not doing it in the summer. He will need time to "ponder" the material.

 

Best wishes.

[regentrude]

If he finds algebra based physics challenging because of math, he is very likely going to have a problem with the required math and science courses for his engineering major. He may be fine with his engineering courses later on, but he will have to pass two semesters of calculus based physics and several semesters of calculus, and those pose an obstacle for weak math students.

 

ETA: For a student who is not strong in math, I would not consider taking precalculus as a one semester course at college, but rather as a full year high school course, which will allow him to take more time for processing and understanding the concepts. Solid precalculus is, again, much more important than calculus.

[Running the race]

This thread is scaring me. My son has wanted to major in Engineering as long as I can remember. He has struggled mightily with Precalculus, Physics, and Calculus. He is graduating this year. He also has ADD and processing issues. I'm sure hoping that hard work and perseverence can help him overcome his limitations.

[Mom2boys]

I will let others with more experience address your other concerns, but is the precalc taught in an accelerated summer session?

 

No, it would be a 15 week class from January to May. 

[Twigs]

No, it would be a 15 week class from January to May. 

Good!

[Mom2boys]

I wouldn't rule it out yet, if that is his passion.  I spent years tutoring students in math and physics at an engineering college.  There are definitely some who enjoy (and are better at) the engineering aspect more than the math, but they can still be successful.  Some end up in tutoring for every single math class and have to work much harder, but it's worth it if they love what they are doing.

 

There are also vastly different levels of "a student who does not excel at math."  Does he "get" it and it just takes him longer?  Does he never really feel like he understands it?  A student finishing Algebra II as a junior with an A/B average doesn't raise red flags.  And is his ACT math really low or were his other scores just higher?  Keep in mind the ACT (unlike the SAT) covers advanced algebra, trig and some topics that are in pre-calc (depending on the curriculum).  His score may be relatively lower because he just hasn't had the material.

 

I'd say take the pre-calc and a semester of calc before you let him rule out engineering.  (Actually, I'd leave the door open through freshman or sophomore year of college, but I think it's fine to discover your passion once you are at college.  But in that case, you might not want to consider schools that only have engineering programs.)

 

Thank you for sharing this! I am encouraged to hear that there are engineering students who need tutors for math and physics. I thought students who struggled in those subjects didn't get accepted into engineering programs.

 

Math takes him a long time, but eventually he does get the majority of the concepts. And when I say "eventually" I mean that sometimes it is months later, after repeated exposures, before a concept clicks for him. I worry that this slow pace will hamper him at college. His ACT math score was a 23 in September. He plans to retake it in June after finishing precalc.

[Mom2boys]

If he finds algebra based physics challenging because of math, he is very likely going to have a problem with the required math and science courses for his engineering major. He may be fine with his engineering courses later on, but he will have to pass two semesters of calculus based physics and several semesters of calculus, and those pose an obstacle for weak math students.

 

ETA: For a student who is not strong in math, I would not consider taking precalculus as a one semester course at college, but rather as a full year high school course, which will allow him to take more time for processing and understanding the concepts. Solid precalculus is, again, much more important than calculus.

 

Regentrude, I think you make a very good point about the length of the precalc class. My problem is that I am not remotely qualified to teach this subject to my son, nor to answer any questions he may have. I thought he would benefit from having an actual teacher he could ask questions of, rather than using a video course (like Teaching Textbooks or Chalkdust). Any online classes are already half over, and we don't want to wait until next fall for this class. So that's why I was looking at our local community college. I don't really have another option with an actual teacher that can begin in January. Do you have any suggestions for us? 

[Teachin'Mine]

Not Regentrude, but if he needs a slower pace, maybe he could take College Algebra in the spring and Trigonometry in the fall. These combined are "Pre-calculus" but the material is taught over two semesters instead of one.  He'd still have the next spring for Calculus I.  I'd suggest that he make it a habit to do his math work in the learning center so a tutor is readily available to him for help.   But as far as placement, his placement test should have indicated which math he should take.   I don't know if the tests differentiate between the two options or not.   I'd check with your college advisor.

[lmrich]

My question for you, is does your child love math? Even if your kid is not great at math, but he loves it, then he is on the right track. My son loves math. Missed it the one semester he did not take it. He is good at it, but it is his love for it that makes me think he will work hard when push comes to shove.

[regentrude]

Regentrude, I think you make a very good point about the length of the precalc class. My problem is that I am not remotely qualified to teach this subject to my son, nor to answer any questions he may have. I thought he would benefit from having an actual teacher he could ask questions of, rather than using a video course (like Teaching Textbooks or Chalkdust). Any online classes are already half over, and we don't want to wait until next fall for this class. So that's why I was looking at our local community college. I don't really have another option with an actual teacher that can begin in January. Do you have any suggestions for us? 

 

As Teaching'Mine already suggested: precalculus typically has two components, college algebra and trigonometry, and at many institutions, each is taught  over the course of one semester, making the full precalculus course a year long. You may want to  look for course titles College Algebra and Trigonometry, instead of precalc.

 

[Jann in TX]

How did your son do on the CC placement test?  If he placed into Pre-Calc then he may have a chance...

 

I second the option of taking College Algebra then Trig in 2 separate semesters.  The one semester Pre-Calc course is best for students who already had Pre-Calc in high school OR who are VERY strong in Math.

 

I do not recommend rushing Algebra just to get to Calculus before graduation.  Time would be better spent making sure the foundation is strong-- most Calc errors are in simple algebra!

[kiana]

It's possible, and I wouldn't tell him now that it's impossible. But I would also talk about backup plans.

 

At my grad school (which had an engineering program) I saw a lot of students come in and change their majors in the first year or so. But they often ended up in majors they'd never even thought about in high school - for example, one of mine ended up majoring in theatre technology.

[Mom2boys]

Not Regentrude, but if he needs a slower pace, maybe he could take College Algebra in the spring and Trigonometry in the fall. These combined are "Pre-calculus" but the material is taught over two semesters instead of one.  He'd still have the next spring for Calculus I.  I'd suggest that he make it a habit to do his math work in the learning center so a tutor is readily available to him for help.   But as far as placement, his placement test should have indicated which math he should take.   I don't know if the tests differentiate between the two options or not.   I'd check with your college advisor.

 

Our CC uses the Compass test, and ds placed into precalculus. I like the idea of taking trig one semester and college algebra the next. However, the course description for calculus lists the precalc class as a prerequisite. I'll have to ask the college if he would still be allowed to take calculus after taking trig and college algebra.

[kiana]

Our CC uses the Compass test, and ds placed into precalculus. I like the idea of taking trig one semester and college algebra the next. However, the course description for calculus lists the precalc class as a prerequisite. I'll have to ask the college if he would still be allowed to take calculus after taking trig and college algebra.

 

Usually, trig is precalc (a very few states have different courses, like Florida) and college algebra is the prerequisite for precalc. How close was the placement?

 

If he placed comfortably into precalc I would go ahead and give it a shot. If he was borderline I would do college algebra first. Either way, I would have him continue review over the summer of whatever he takes in the spring, using a free resource like khan academy. That way he can hit the ground running in the fall, while the rest of the students will be trying to remember what they learned in the spring.

[Mom2boys]

As Teaching'Mine already suggested: precalculus typically has two components, college algebra and trigonometry, and at many institutions, each is taught  over the course of one semester, making the full precalculus course a year long. You may want to  look for course titles College Algebra and Trigonometry, instead of precalc.

 

 

Thank you for the suggestion. The CC does offer trig and college algebra. I hadn't realized those two classes were the equivalent to precalculus. But the only prerequisite course listed for calculus is precalc, so we will have to check with an advisor and see if he can indeed take calculus after taking college algebra and trig. 

[kiana]

Thank you for the suggestion. The CC does offer trig and college algebra. I hadn't realized those two classes were the equivalent to precalculus. But the only prerequisite course listed for calculus is precalc, so we will have to check with an advisor and see if he can indeed take calculus after taking college algebra and trig. 

 

I have no idea what state you are in, but in some states trig is a different class from precalc, intended as a terminal course for people who are NOT taking calculus. PM me a link to your cc and I'll look.

[Mom2boys]

Usually, trig is precalc (a very few states have different courses, like Florida) and college algebra is the prerequisite for precalc. How close was the placement?

 

 

 

I'm not sure how close the placement was. I have his scores from the Compass test, but not the ranges to know if he just squeaked over the precalc threshold or if he was comfortably in the qualifying range. Trig is a different course from precalc. And College Algebra (Math 140) is not listed as a prereq for precalc. Here are the course descriptions from the CC website:

 

MATH-110 Trigonometry 3 credit hours, 3 contact hours (3 hours lecture and 0 hours lab) Prerequisite: C grade (2.00) or better in MATH-070 or COMPASS placement This course will cover concepts of trigonometry including the graphing of trigonometric functions. Radicals, exponential functions, and logarithms are discussed. Course is graded on an A-F basis.

 

MATH-150 Pre-Calculus 5 credit hours, 5 contact hours (5 hours lecture and 0 hours lab) Prerequisite: C grade (2.00) or better in MATH-070 or appropriate score on COMPASS placement exam This course is a study of algebraic functions, trigonometry, vectors, conic sections, sequences and series. The course will include the study of polynomial, rational, radical, exponential, logarithmic and piece-wise defined functions, and the trigonometric functions and their graphs . Topics investigated will include domain, range, graphs, inverses, operations, equations, inequalities and their applications. Course is graded on an A-F basis.

[kiana]

OK, I found your community college. Since the trigonometry is only 3 credit hours, it is most unlikely that it would fulfill the prerequisite requirement for calculus. It is very odd that pre-calculus has only a listed prerequisite of intermediate algebra - I would personally recommend him taking both college algebra and pre-calculus before taking calculus. I would recommend college algebra in the spring, pre-calculus next fall and then calculus 1 in the spring. I believe that this would give him a stronger foundation, as attempting to take pre-calculus in one semester may be overwhelming for any but an excellent student.

 

ETA: The precalc course will cover everything in the trig course and more.

[Mom2boys]

It's possible, and I wouldn't tell him now that it's impossible. But I would also talk about backup plans.

 

At my grad school (which had an engineering program) I saw a lot of students come in and change their majors in the first year or so. But they often ended up in majors they'd never even thought about in high school - for example, one of mine ended up majoring in theatre technology.

 

I do tell ds it is possible, but that my concern is he will have to work so hard at his classes, that there won't be time for anything else at college. I don't want him to burn out because all he does is study from sun-up to sun-down. And we are starting to (gently) talk about backup plans. 

 

I always thought this kid had such a strong social sciences bent. He devours books, and he particularly loves history. He knows more history than most adults I know. He knows quite a bit of political geography too (he taught me that the capital of Burkina Faso was Ouagadougou!) and each week he can't wait to get his hands on the latest issue of Time magazine. He is excelling in his AP US History class, and struggling in his Physics class. The only thing about my son that has ever pointed to engineering is his love of legos and participating on Lego robotics teams. 

[Teachin'Mine]

I would definitely talk with an advisor, and maybe someone in the math department.   It sounds like pre-calculus covers a lot more than just college algebra and trigonometry.  If he wouldn't mind taking a summer course, he could do it very gradually and well by taking college algebra this spring, trig in the summer, and pre-calculus in the fall.   The foundation is critical for success in calculus.

 

I would encourage him to pursue both engineering and history at this point.  He should know whether he wants something heavy in math after the community college courses.   I'd suggest that he take a community college course in history, government,  or international relations as well.   Now is the time to keep options open.  

[bettyandbob]

I do tell ds it is possible, but that my concern is he will have to work so hard at his classes, that there won't be time for anything else at college. I don't want him to burn out because all he does is study from sun-up to sun-down. And we are starting to (gently) talk about backup plans. 

 

I always thought this kid had such a strong social sciences bent. He devours books, and he particularly loves history. He knows more history than most adults I know. He knows quite a bit of political geography too (he taught me that the capital of Burkina Faso was Ouagadougou!) and each week he can't wait to get his hands on the latest issue of Time magazine. He is excelling in his AP US History class, and struggling in his Physics class. The only thing about my son that has ever pointed to engineering is his love of legos and participating on Lego robotics teams. 

 

Has your ds considered taking a geographical information systems course? In an introductory course a student would learn how to use computerized mapping software and apply it. My son took it dual enrollment a few years ago. The range of final projects was incredible, because you can  apply it across all disciplines. You could use it medicine to track spread of disease. My did a history project. My neighbor's son is now majoring in this. He's hoping to work on mapping the physical geography changes in parts of Colorado since the flood as an independent project spring semester. 

 

It's not engineering, but it is a field that combing social sciences and technology.

[kiana]

I always thought this kid had such a strong social sciences bent. He devours books, and he particularly loves history. He knows more history than most adults I know. He knows quite a bit of political geography too (he taught me that the capital of Burkina Faso was Ouagadougou!) and each week he can't wait to get his hands on the latest issue of Time magazine. He is excelling in his AP US History class, and struggling in his Physics class. The only thing about my son that has ever pointed to engineering is his love of legos and participating on Lego robotics teams. 

 

If it's possible, I would try and get him into some social sciences classes taught by a genuinely interesting professor as a senior as well. Some courses he might find interesting that are at an elementary level would be cultural geography, anthropology, history (something that's not on the AP, like history of the middle east), or something similar. I would be far more interested in finding a passionate professor than in the precise field at this point.

 

ETA: and after reading Betty's post, they can also talk with him about opportunities for integrating technology into the social sciences, which sound like a brilliant plan for him.

[Mom2boys]

Has your ds considered taking a geographical information systems course? In an introductory course a student would learn how to use computerized mapping software and apply it. My son took it dual enrollment a few years ago. The range of final projects was incredible, because you can  apply it across all disciplines. You could use it medicine to track spread of disease. My did a history project. My neighbor's son is now majoring in this. He's hoping to work on mapping the physical geography changes in parts of Colorado since the flood as an independent project spring semester. 

 

It's not engineering, but it is a field that combing social sciences and technology.

 

Thank you so much for this suggestion! This major sounds really interesting, and our state U offers it, so it is possible ds could take an introductory course his senior year to try it out. 

[Mom2boys]

I would definitely talk with an advisor, and maybe someone in the math department.   It sounds like pre-calculus covers a lot more than just college algebra and trigonometry.  If he wouldn't mind taking a summer course, he could do it very gradually and well by taking college algebra this spring, trig in the summer, and pre-calculus in the fall.   The foundation is critical for success in calculus.

 

 

 

I spoke with one of the CC math professors who taught my son at a math boot camp last summer. She said she thought precalc would be a good fit for him, and that the course covers a lot of algebra. Taking college algebra and then precalc would probably be overkill. 

 

I still like the plan of taking college algebra this spring and then precalc next fall, but I don't want ds to be bored to tears when he gets to precalc. Sigh...

[kiana]

If the CC math prof thinks it's a good fit, I'd go with it.

[Crimson Wife]

Engineering technicians can make decent money (not as much as engineers obviously but $25+/hr is fairly common) and that only requires a 2 year degree.

 

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/architecture-and-engineering/electrical-and-electronic-engineering-technicians.htm#tab-4

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/architecture-and-engineering/mechanical-engineering-technicians.htm#tab-4

 

 

A student who enjoys robotics but who probably doesn't have the aptitude for a B.S.Eng. degree I think would be well-served looking into the engineering tech programs.

[Julie in MN]

Taking college algebra and then precalc would probably be overkill. 

 

I still like the plan of taking college algebra this spring and then precalc next fall, but I don't want ds to be bored to tears when he gets to precalc. Sigh...

 

My ds is mathy and we knew he could have tested out of college algebra in 11th, and really the professors seemed to think he should do that.  However, we wanted him to do math all year (since a college semester course can equal a high school year-long course, some just do one semester of math), and we decided he could use a fairly easy intro to college math.  We are both glad he went ahead and did college algebra.  He said it was like "algebra on steroids."  Topics came at him at a pace much faster than he was used to, and topics were integrated together much more than the usual progression of high school algebra 2.  For instance, you might do the quadratic equation again but add a lot of things into it that hadn't been in there before LOL.

 

The next semester he did precalc and again it wasn't a repeat.  He said the topics were always changing, so just when one was absorbed, he was on a different one.  He felt the pace and the amount of homework was a challenge.  For instance, he turned one assignment in about a day late (less than 24 hours) and had to do a ton of extra credit (really all that was offered) just to get his GPA back to where it had been. 

 

Not sure what your son's background is, but there was a transition for my son and he was glad he wasn't trying to absorb calculus at the same time he was trying to absorb a college pace (he's in calculus now as a 12th grader, his 3rd college math semester -- p.s. I would have preferred he spent a semester doing calc at home before doing it at an actual college, but he just wanted a professor).

 

Julie

[Julie of KY]

I would encourage him to follow his passion, but realistically warn him that engineering is a tough road with a lot of math. Tell him to look over the classes required for many different majors and see if any jump out at him as being really interesting majors. I'd also start down the road of engineering with a possible backup plan if he decides that he doesn't want to do all the math.

[regentrude]

I do tell ds it is possible, but that my concern is he will have to work so hard at his classes, that there won't be time for anything else at college. I don't want him to burn out because all he does is study from sun-up to sun-down.

 

I find it extremely important for college success that students have a realistic expectation of the work load. They need to realize that one hour of class will require about 2 hours or more of work outside of class; a typical 16 hours course load will translate into working 48 hours for coursework, in and out of class. Adding projects and labs, quite possibly more; a one credit hour lab course may take four hours in lab and extra time to prep.

So, the student needs to enter with the expectation that studying is equivalent to a full-time job with overtime. Students who do not anticipate that and plan accordingly will not do well in science and engineering.

[northcoast]

Strong math skills are needed but it's not hopeless.  There has been good advice given here.  If math continues to be an issue, your son might consider Design Engineering Technology which doesn't require as much math.  It's a 2 year program in many places but some schools offer a bachelor's.  My husband teaches this at a university has a 4 yr program that places many of their grads.  PM me if you want info on the university.

[plansrme]

I don't know if engineering is right for him or not, but I will chime in to say that my HS sophomore daughter is taking Calc 2 at Georgia Tech this semester, presumably with an on-campus crew of mostly future engineers, and lots of the Tech kids have tutors.  Plenty of them (possibly most) also attend regular study sessions led by TAs, and plenty of them are not exempting the final, which requires about a 91 average.  The distance calc students in her HS class are doing fine--they're all exempting the final, none have tutors (that I know of), but there are plenty of on-campus students who are struggling more but will still pass.  Also, a friend's son graduated from Tech a couple of years ago after 4 years of sub-par academic performance (he apparently was somewhat addicted to WOW and would "go underground" for days at a time; his buddies would find him when it was test time), and even with his barely-2.0 average, had multiple job offers upon graduation.  So, all that is to say that it is possible that all employed engineers were not tippy-top engineering students.

 

As for class work load, keep in mind that not every class is math.  I would take a look at a  typical schedule for potential majors to see if it looks doable.  He is going to breeze through some of the non-math classes that would be more difficult for an all-math brain (have you ever seen how some of these engineers write?) and take more time in math, and that might even out the work load.  And finally, my observation has been that many, possibly most, engineering majors take more than four years to complete their degrees.  

 

But by all means, encourage him to have a back-up plan--we all need back-up plans.  Plenty of smart people get into engineering without really knowing what an engineer does all day and transfer out after a semester or two.

 

 

[MarkT]

This thread is scaring me. My son has wanted to major in Engineering as long as I can remember. He has struggled mightily with Precalculus, Physics, and Calculus. He is graduating this year. He also has ADD and processing issues. I'm sure hoping that hard work and perseverence can help him overcome his limitations.

 

Do you have a nearby community college that has an Engineering Science program (transfer program)?

Have him start there. If he is not good at math have him take Calculus I there even if he took it in HS.

He will learn soon enough whether he wants to keep going. College is a time of finding out about yourself independent of your parents.

 

Electrical Engineering is pretty much all math.

Industrial Engineering uses more of statistics, etc.

 

Information Systems is NOT Engineering at all but is "STEM".

[JennW in SoCal]

I would never say the die is cast for a student based solely on his or her experience with high school Algebra.  High schoolers are still growing and maturing and higher math may click for some a little later than others. It isn't a fatal flaw that ruins their chances to become an engineer or scientist. My ds is a case in point.  He was ok in algebra, but just ok.  I would have said at the time he didn't excel in it.  I knew he wanted to do something STEM, but we didn't stress out over when he would take calculus or how well he would do in it.  I just had him take the next course as it came.  

 

He was on track to take Algebra 2 in his junior year, when he was 15. He started taking all his math courses at the community college that year, so he took Algebra 2 fall semester, then trig, then college algebra, then calculus. His Algebra 2 professor recommended doing a semester of trig and a semester of college algebra instead of pre-calc.  Don't know if it was good or bad, but that is what he did. But the cool thing is that somewhere along the way he fell in love with math, especially calculus.  He is a sophomore now in college and toying with making his math minor a second major.  He is a straight A math student who really loves all his advanced calculus courses, and often tutors his friends.  I NEVER could have predicted this when he was in 10th grade and am so glad I didn't make any assumptions at the time about his abilities or potential for a STEM major.  

 

So don't assume that a teen who doesn't excel in high school algebra has no chance of making it as an engineering major.  Let the poor kid finish growing up and maturing while continuing through the sequence of math courses, and let the kid then figure out for himself whether it is the right major or not.

 

[Running the race]

Do you have a nearby community college that has an Engineering Science program (transfer program)?

Have him start there. If he is not good at math have him take Calculus I there even if he took it in HS.

He will learn soon enough whether he wants to keep going. College is a time of finding out about yourself independent of your parents.

 

Electrical Engineering is pretty much all math.

Industrial Engineering uses more of statistics, etc.

 

Information Systems is NOT Engineering at all but is "STEM".

 

We do have community colleges nearby, so that is an option. Because my husband is a professor, he has the possibility of getting free tuition at a few nearby four-year universities, so that factors into his decision. He is currently interested in mechanical or aeronautical engineering. Community college is certainly not ruled out at this point. Thanks for your advice!

[Mom2boys]

I would never say the die is cast for a student based solely on his or her experience with high school Algebra.  High schoolers are still growing and maturing and higher math may click for some a little later than others. It isn't a fatal flaw that ruins their chances to become an engineer or scientist. My ds is a case in point.  He was ok in algebra, but just ok.  I would have said at the time he didn't excel in it.  I knew he wanted to do something STEM, but we didn't stress out over when he would take calculus or how well he would do in it.  I just had him take the next course as it came.  

 

He was on track to take Algebra 2 in his junior year, when he was 15. He started taking all his math courses at the community college that year, so he took Algebra 2 fall semester, then trig, then college algebra, then calculus. His Algebra 2 professor recommended doing a semester of trig and a semester of college algebra instead of pre-calc.  Don't know if it was good or bad, but that is what he did. But the cool thing is that somewhere along the way he fell in love with math, especially calculus.  He is a sophomore now in college and toying with making his math minor a second major.  He is a straight A math student who really loves all his advanced calculus courses, and often tutors his friends.  I NEVER could have predicted this when he was in 10th grade and am so glad I didn't make any assumptions at the time about his abilities or potential for a STEM major.  

 

So don't assume that a teen who doesn't excel in high school algebra has no chance of making it as an engineering major.  Let the poor kid finish growing up and maturing while continuing through the sequence of math courses, and let the kid then figure out for himself whether it is the right major or not.

 

Jenn, while I believe your advice was well-meaning, your use of loaded language wasn't appreciated. I never suggested that my son's struggles with math were a "fatal flaw". And I am not assuming that he "has no chance of making it as an engineering major". If you had read all of my posts, you would have seen that my primary concern was that he not have to work so hard at it that he didn't have time for any kind of life outside of studying. And my son is a junior, not a 10th grader, so it is time for us to start looking at colleges and planning where he might want to visit. It helps to have an idea of what he may major in so that we can look at colleges that would be a good fit for him. And while I am certain that my son will continue to grow and mature, the "poor kid" does really need to start looking at colleges soon. As his parent and his guidance counselor, I feel it is my job to help him make decisions that are in his best interest, and won't cause him to incur heavy debt by changing his major, or his college, multiple times. 

 

With my son's best interests at heart, I asked for advice from this board, and got my hand slapped by you. I appreciate that you wanted to help (I think!), but please, if you can't say something kindly, then don't bother saying anything at all. 

[JennW in SoCal]

Ummm.  Wow. 

 

It was not meant as a slap at you, Greta.  It was in response to the tone of the responders to this thread and the other thread you had mentioned about how much math for a STEM major.  People tend to talk up the need for Calculus before college, as if that is the be-all, end all.

 

I am sorry you took offense.  My experience was offered as an example of a different, unexpected path.

 

ETA  I can see why you felt I was picking on you as the thread was meant to be about your specific situation.  I am sorry I wasn't clear that my post was directed at the issue of upper level math in general.   Good luck in helping your son and finding the support you need here.  

[MarkT]

We do have community colleges nearby, so that is an option. Because my husband is a professor, he has the possibility of getting free tuition at a few nearby four-year universities, so that factors into his decision. He is currently interested in mechanical or aeronautical engineering. Community college is certainly not ruled out at this point. Thanks for your advice!

Wow take the free tuition but make sure he takes Calc I in college.

[Running the race]

Wow take the free tuition but make sure he takes Calc I in college.

 

He's working on Calculus 1 right now, but will definitely take it over.