Self-education people - I sold a painting!

[Nan in Mass]

Some of you self-education people might remember me talking about learning to paint.  And talking about it.  And talking about it.  (I've been working on this for quite a few years lol.)  Well, I have a website now - nmsgwatercolors.com, thanks to a fellow WTMer.  And I have a piece in a show.  The website is still a bit rough and the show is a very small, inconsequential one, but I am still very excited.  And I sold a painting!  To a non-family member!  I still have miles to go before I can do the stuff I really want to be able to do, but I am making some progress.  My early efforts looked like the paintings my three year old nephew makes.  Yikes!  Thank goodness our public library has such a nice selection of painting books.

 

Nan

[Twigs]

I'm so excited for you!

:hurray:  :hurray:  :hurray:

Well done!

[mamato4]

Way to go, Nan!

 

[regentrude]

Congratulations! That is wonderful.

Nice website, btw.

[SoCal Sandra]

Bravo!

[Lori D.]

Lovely! I checked out your website -- very nice gallery! :) You go, girl!

[Teachin'Mine]

Nan, your paintings are beautiful!   You have a wonderful talent and I love your use of color, and light, and the sense of movement in the stillness!

 

Congratulations on the sale and keep up the good work!

 

:party:

[Lucy in Australia]

That is very, very cool :hurray:  Keep it  up! I've bookmarked your website now, and we want lots more paintings to look at!

[Lilaclady]

Congratulations. That is awesome. You ladies alway inspire me.

[Nan in Mass]

Thanks, everyone!  I really appreciate the encouragement.  I can't see any improvement in my painting, even if I go back five years.  Some paintings are ok and some are horrible and that just seems to be the way it is.  My family keeps saying I am improving but I can't see it myself.  It is very strange.

 

Lucy, I just finished a painting of some mountains.  I'll go get it and post it.  It is really fun to think that somebody is actually looking at the website!

 

Nan

[Jane in NC]

How wonderful Nan!

 

Having spent time with Nan in museums, let me tell you that she is a woman who knows how to see.  She studies.  She thinks.  And she is inspirational.

 

Sending applause and hugs,

Jane

[JadeOrchidSong]

Nan, you are so creative and your paintings are so beautiful and delightful. You must be beautiful inside and out yourself to captur such beauty in nature.

[joannqn]

Awesome!  

 

I LOVE LOVE LOVE your card with the tree branches and snow and the elves with the hope candle. 

[Nan in Mass]

I'm glowing

: )

[swimmermom3]

Nan dear,

 

You will sell many, many more paintings. What a lovely site and your work leaves me with a calm sense of wonder and beauty. Perfect.

[Amy in TX]

Nan, I just looked at your website and love the Chebacco Lake paintings.  Beautiful.  :)

[Miss Mousie]

Congratulations!

  :hurray:

 

 

I assume you'll spend your earnings on more supplies... one can never have too many art supplies. 

 

 

[Catwoman]

:hurray: :hurray: :hurray:

 

Your work is beautiful, Nan -- my favorites are your Christmas Tree card and the Hope card that you did with your mom. I also like the card with the pelicans, and the one with the Maine scene.

 

It's hard to choose a favorite because I honestly liked all of your work!

[Nan in Mass]

Miss Mousie - Yup - art supplies.  I'm going through paper at a goodish clip and I bought some frames on sale so I can frame some stuff.  And some masking fluid.  I left mine in the car overnight and it froze.  Oops.  The stuff is hard enough to control at the best of times and having it full of chunks makes it pretty much impossible to work with unless you want a really random effect.  It was almost gone anyway, fortunately.  I had given most of it to my mother, since  I only occasionally use a touch of it on distant tree trunks or water sparkles.  I saw the coolest painting yesterday when we were at a holiday show trying to figure out how pricing works (no luck).  It looked like something glowing was hidden under some straw in a dark barn.  She must have used a whole bottle of the stuff to make it.  She also had a beautiful one of the bottom of a patch of tide pool with lots of rock weed and pebbles.  She didn't appear to have any trouble controling her masking fluid lol.

 

It is helpful to hear which paintings people like.  I haven't had much non-family feedback.

[trulycrabby]

Congratulations!!! :hurray:  :hurray:  :hurray: It's lovely to see someone follow their passion, work hard, and succeed!!!

[JennW in SoCal]

First of all,  YAY NAN!!!  Good for you for pursuing a passion and cultivating your talent!  The paintings and cards are truly lovely and I'm so happy you felt confident enough to share your work with us.  And congrats on selling a painting!!  It is gratifying to get some validation in cold, hard cash!

 

Second of all, well, I hope this isn't a hijack.  I'm just feeling philosophical at the moment.  Being creative and working on developing an artistic skill, simply for the love of it, is something I understand.  And I've come to realize it is a luxury.  I have gone from amateur to professional musician in the last 5 years simply because I love to play and am willing try different forms of music.  All too often I find myself playing with musicians for whom music is no longer a joy but is simply a means to earn a paycheck.  I, on the other hand, get to play what I want when it fits in my schedule, and find  the occasional paycheck a nice bonus -- I'm just happy to be playing.  I'm fortunate that I don't have to support a family with my music.  The payoff is that I still get goosebumps when playing great music -- I'm not jaded by it.  Just tonight we were rehearsing the Messiah, without the choir -- they join us on Saturday, but I still found myself deeply moved by the opening strains of the Hallelujah chorus.  I've worked with musicians who would have rolled their eyes at my excitement because they are sick of having to play the same music every single holiday season.     

 

Nan, I see in your paintings that same joy of creating.  Cheers to you for throwing yourself into the process and in succeeding!  

[Teachin'Mine]

Congratulations to you too Jenn!   The Messiah is an amazing work of art.   I can't imagine what an experience it must be to perform.

[Nan in Mass]

 

 

...you felt confident enough to share your work with us...

You wouldn't believe how scary this post was. I have never made a scarier post and I have made quite a number I was pretty worried about over the years. I've been so open here about what we've done and not done and the results, good AND bad, that you'd think I could make this one easily. Nope. It took me a few days after I sold the painting to summon up the courage. One of the first things I thought when I sold the painting was that I had to tell the board, but then it took me a few days to really do it. My family had to listen to me dithering while I summoned up the courage lol.
 

Second of all, well, I hope this isn't a hijack. I'm just feeling philosophical at the moment. Being creative and working on developing an artistic skill, simply for the love of it, is something I understand. And I've come to realize it is a luxury. I have gone from amateur to professional musician in the last 5 years simply because I love to play and am willing try different forms of music. All too often I find myself playing with musicians for whom music is no longer a joy but is simply a means to earn a paycheck. I, on the other hand, get to play what I want when it fits in my schedule, and find the occasional paycheck a nice bonus -- I'm just happy to be playing. I'm fortunate that I don't have to support a family with my music. The payoff is that I still get goosebumps when playing great music -- I'm not jaded by it. Just tonight we were rehearsing the Messiah, without the choir -- they join us on Saturday, but I still found myself deeply moved by the opening strains of the Hallelujah chorus. I've worked with musicians who would have rolled their eyes at my excitement because they are sick of having to play the same music every single holiday season.

Jenn that is so cool about your going from amateur to professional! Would you be willing to talk about it more? Or have you said it all here already and I somehow missed it?

Definately not a hijack. I've thought about this a lot, pondering family from two generations back to the next one coming along. We tend to be musical, visually artistic, or both, and many of the spouses are as well. And what do we do with it? Mostly engineers (or something similarly STEM-oriented) and/or mothers. One cousin tried to become an artist but her family is so heavily service-oriented that she couldn't do it. Why didn't my grandfather continue as a musician? There is a family story that he got so lost in his music that he forgot the score when he went to conduct a concert and scared himself badly. Or was it the depression? He worked as a chemical engineer for one of the New England mills. It was dreadfully unsatisfying work. He was blossoming in retirement but he died young. There is definately a push in my family to make anything artistic a passtime, possibly even a college major, but not a career. Why? The short answer, if you ask, is always, "Money." But if you push, what you find is that people are afraid of losing the joy of the thing because of monitary considerations. I'm as guilty as the rest and that's why I keep thinking about it. If one of mine had really been bent on becoming an artist or musician, of course I would have supported that choice, but I didn't encourage them to think about art or music as a career choice when they were small, the way I encouraged engineer, say. I encouraged their art and music, certainly, and I am thrilled that youngest is talking about minoring in music (while majoring in engineering). I wish wish wish I had taken more music classes when I was in college. They would have come in very handy. But if youngest had made an announcement at our huge extended family Thanksgiving that he was changing his major to music, everyone would have tried to be supportive, but they would have been so scared for him, and many of them would have taken him aside and tried to warn him about those fears. He would have been told many stories like yours about friends who had taken that path and how bitter they were now. I still wonder about this family attitude. And worry about the next generation as they try to decide what they will do. I worry that they will follow their dreams and I worry that they won't lol. I have known a few people who were successful AND still happy. One is an opera singer, she was rather unhappy here in the US, where she wasn't properly appreciated, but her solution to that was just to go back to Europe, where she is lol. No lingering bitterness lol. Goodness, Jenn! You obviously hit a nerve! The recent conversation with regentrude and the shift in my own life and all my wonderings about whether I even wanted to try to sell my work has brought all my wonderings back up again. I do want to sell my paintings but I have trouble figuring out why. But anyway...

We are lucky, aren't we? I can remember my anthropology professor saying that many traditional cultures believe that women who are past childbearing age are given extra creativity and wisdom. At the time, I thought this had something to do with chemistry lol. Now I think it is much more a matter of what my mother always told us about history. She said that she thought the reason most of the famous artists and musicians were men is that the men had wives. A little one tugging at you saying where is my lunch definately inhibits artistic pursuits lol.

How serious I sound lol. From here, it is a really short step to What Is Art and Why Do We Make Art When People Are Starving and other unhelpful questions which are have suddenly descended from the realms of philosophy and crashed into my life. That is the point, though. I suddenly am having to deal with these questions. At least until I decide to give up on them and go paint lol.

Nan

[JennW in SoCal]

Goodness, Jenn! You obviously hit a nerve! 

 

I'm glad I did!  This is something I ponder quite a bit, and it is nice to find someone else thinks on it too.  It isn't just because of my own journey that I ponder.  I'm married to a professional artist, the art major I started dating in college.  He is so very fortunate that he gets to make a good living doing what he loves and doing exactly what he had dreamed of when was 12 or 13.  He struggles, though, in keeping his work fresh, in not becoming "a hack" who churns out work without any thought or care.  But he has long since lost any desire to sketch for fun, to dabble in water colors or other painting.  When he needs a break from work the last thing he wants is to deal with the tools of his job!  

 

My dad was a professional musician who decided when he got married that he would need a "real" job -- so he got a PhD in physics!  He continued working as a professional musician, playing french horn in the symphony, playing piano in dance bands, writing arrangements for different groups around town.  Until the 1970s most symphony musicians, especially in regional orchestras,  had other jobs.  The huge explosion of conservatory grads looking for full time employment as a musician is a relatively recent phenomenon as is the number of regional symphonies composed of musicians expecting a living wage.  I think some of the bitterness from professionals comes from having to scrabble for work.  There are only so many symphony positions so you freelance and play Pachelbel's Canon at weddings, teach kids who don't practice and slowly become bitter. 

 

I didn't major in music because I watched my older brother and other older, very talented friends go off to a conservatory only to feel crushed by the weight of the competition.  There is always someone better than you, and the sheer number of excellent piano and string majors out there is daunting.  You have to be made of the right mental stuff to continue.  And I wasn't made of that stuff!!  

 

Jenn that is so cool about your going from amateur to professional! Would you be willing to talk about it more? Or have you said it all here already and I somehow missed it?

 

 

I'm definitely a small "p" professional.  I'm not symphony-caliber by any stretch, but there are contractors in town who call on me to play weddings, church gigs and in pit orchestras for various shows.  I used to never turn anything down because I was so excited to be asked to play, but I just turned down a multi-weekend Nutcracker gig simply because I'd rather be able to spend time with the college boy while he is home.  

 

How did I get here?  I had a music scholarship in college even though I was not a music major, but I quit playing after college.  I hadn't touched my violin in 15 years when my oldest was cast in a youth theater production of Oliver.  The music director was struggling to find string players, heard I had played, and asked me to join the pit. To make matters worse, I was the ONLY violin player in the pit and there are some giant, hairy, terrifying solos in Fagan's song.  I had to go from rusty to passable in 6 weeks, but pulled it off and was asked to play again.  Then a fledgling community orchestra started at my church -- a congregation filled, by the way, with lots of engineers.  All these musicians came out of the woodwork many of them engineers who had flutes, trumpets or saxes sitting untouched in a closet at home.  I've helped manage that group for 10 years now.

 

I now teach, too, and work to nurture and instill a love of music in my students, hoping not that they major in it but that they have the skills to play as adults.  I also have been learning how to improvise and go to bluegrass jams once or twice a month.  I also play chamber music every week -- quartets and trios -- with some friends who are in their 70s and 80s.  Exploring a Beethoven or Mozart or other quartet is the most wonderful and satisfying way of spending an afternoon, and I hope I'm able to continue doing so for the next 30 years!

 

We are lucky, aren't we? I can remember my anthropology professor saying that many traditional cultures believe that women who are past childbearing age are given extra creativity and wisdom.

 

 

 

I'm sticking with this one.  Extra creativity and wisdom -- we've earned it!!

[Scarlett]

That is so cool!

 

[IdahoHomeschooler]

I really, really like NMSG watercolor-Chebacco Lake Moonrise1 and am bummed that it sold.  I like the higher contrast and moodiness of this painting.

[Nan in Mass]

I really, really like NMSG watercolor-Chebacco Lake Moonrise1 and am bummed that it sold.  I like the higher contrast and moodiness of this painting.

 

That was definately one of the cooler things I've done.  The funny part is that I did it almost totally from memory.  I can't exactly sit on my deck in the dark while the moon is just rising, and rising into clouds no less, and paint.  I had to sit on my deck and try to memorize where everything was.  By then it was late and it was bedtime so I had to go to sleep.  And then the next morning, when I woke up, I painted what was left of my memory.  I did go look at the shape of the hills across the lake when I was doing the drawing.

 

That one photographed fairly well, also.  I wish the elves one had reproduced better, or I could photoshop it to look the same as the original painting, or something.  It definately is glowier in the painting and although the darkness is about right, it is less overall blue.  Or something.  Sometimes I think I ought to take a few graphic art classes and but every time I do, I think but wait, I should put the time into learning to paint, not to learning to reproduce a painting.  Maybe some day.

 

Jenn - I'm still mulling over your post.  I am jealous that you get to so the Messiah.  One of these days, I'm going to join one of the choruses in the area and sing it.  Every once in awhile they do Carmina Burana (sp?), which I'd love to do, also.

 

Nan

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I love the origami crane on the branch. Just lovely. Reminds me of Allen Say's art style.

[Nan in Mass]

Jenn - Two quick thought...

One is that I think all this philosophizing on my part is the result of being in the middle of picking which paintings to mat.  I can't cut the mats myself.  My father has to do it for me.  And matting isn't exactly cheap.

The second is that many of us are homeschooling at least in part in order to preserve our children's love of learning.  That seems related to the problem of making a career of music or art and losing the love of it.

Nan

[Nan in Mass]

I love the origami crane on the branch. Just lovely. Reminds me of Allen Say's art style.

 

Sebastian,

I had to look up Allen Say.  His name wasn't familiar.  When I discovered who he is, I teared up.  Emma's Rug is one of my favourite children's books.  We must of have gotten it out of the library every other trip for years when my children were small, just because I liked to read it.  Fortunately, my boys also liked it.  I had never heard of anyone else finding pictures in something like a rug before. (Well, other than clouds.)  For me, it wasn't a rug but the church floor.  You wouldn't believe how many animals live there.  The trick is to look for eyes.  I should probably go over with my camera some time and take photos of some of my favourites before some committee at church decides to redo it.  We own Tea with Milk.  I can't believe I didn't recognize the name.  I am so honoured.

Nan

[helena]

Congrats on selling a painting!

Glad you shared this, it's very inspiring! 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Sebastian,

I had to look up Allen Say.  His name wasn't familiar.  When I discovered who he is, I teared up.  Emma's Rug is one of my favourite children's books.  We must of have gotten it out of the library every other trip for years when my children were small, just because I liked to read it.  Fortunately, my boys also liked it.  I had never heard of anyone else finding pictures in something like a rug before. (Well, other than clouds.)  For me, it wasn't a rug but the church floor.  You wouldn't believe how many animals live there.  The trick is to look for eyes.  I should probably go over with my camera some time and take photos of some of my favourites before some committee at church decides to redo it.  We own Tea with Milk.  I can't believe I didn't recognize the name.  I am so honoured.

Nan

 

I haven't read Emma's Rug, but Tea with Milk is one of my favorites. Straddling so many cultures and countries as we do, it speaks to my sense of being frequently out of step.

 

He also illustrated "How My Parents Learned to Eat" which is a dearly loved book in our house.

[Kareni]

What wonderful news, Nan!  Congratulations on the sale of your painting.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[klmama]

Congratulations, Nan!  It's good to know there really is life after homeschooling, LOL!  

[Nan in Mass]

I haven't read Emma's Rug, but Tea with Milk is one of my favorites. Straddling so many cultures and countries as we do, it speaks to my sense of being frequently out of step.

 

He also illustrated "How My Parents Learned to Eat" which is a dearly loved book in our house.

 

I bought Tea with Milk because I liked the illustrations.  Then I discovered I liked the story, too.  I haven't seen How My Parents Learned to Eat.  I will have to look for it!  In the two books I've seen, I thought Allen Say did such a good job of capturing what it feels like to be a child, that combination of reaction and acceptance.

 

Nan

[Nan in Mass]

Warning - I have trouble replying, especially if quoting is involved, so I've kludged my way through this using the brackets. I may have messed them up. If I did, I probably can't edit it. Edit only sometimes works for me. Sorry.

 

 

... I'm married to a professional artist, the art major I started dating in college. He is so very fortunate that he gets to make a good living doing what he loves and doing exactly what he had dreamed of when was 12 or 13. He struggles, though, in keeping his work fresh, in not becoming "a hack" who churns out work without any thought or care. But he has long since lost any desire to sketch for fun, to dabble in water colors or other painting. When he needs a break from work the last thing he wants is to deal with the tools of his job!

Finally getting back to this. Lots to think about. : )

 

What does your husband do that makes him a good living with art? And do you think he is having his fun at work? Or does his work leave no time to experiment and improve in any way but the particular bit that he is being paid for? (Horrible sentence but hopefully you can figure out what I mean.) I can see how you might run into the busman's holiday problem. I know someone who was doing the illustrations for textbooks. She was making an ok living but I'm not sure how much room there was to do new and interesting things. She left that job and is no longer working as an artist. I guess this is true of most jobs - there not being room to try new and interesting things. Perhaps it doesn't seem quite so tragic if one isn't an artist or musician or something similar?

 

 

 

 

My dad was a professional musician who decided when he got married that he would need a "real" job -- so he got a PhD in physics! He continued working as a professional musician, playing french horn in the symphony, playing piano in dance bands, writing arrangements for different groups around town. Until the 1970s most symphony musicians, especially in regional orchestras, had other jobs.

The best musician at our church is a physicist lol. And did you read the recent thread involving regentrude? There seems to be quite a lot of crossover between some STEM things and music or art. Youngest is at a techie school and says he can only think of one person who doesn't play an instrument. That might be the school's selection process, though.

 

 

The huge explosion of conservatory grads looking for full time employment as a musician is a relatively recent phenomenon as is the number of regional symphonies composed of musicians expecting a living wage.

I wonder why the explosion?

 

I think some of the bitterness from professionals comes from having to scrabble for work. There are only so many symphony positions so you freelance and play Pachelbel's Canon at weddings, teach kids who don't practice and slowly become bitter.

Agree with this. But what are we to tell our children who want to become musicians and artists? It seems wrong to discourage them, but on the other hand, it seems wrong not to warn them that this might be the case. I guess we warn them and leave them to decide for themselves? That isn't as easy as it sounds.

 

 

 

 

I didn't major in music because I watched my older brother and other older, very talented friends go off to a conservatory only to feel crushed by the weight of the competition. There is always someone better than you, and the sheer number of excellent piano and string majors out there is daunting. You have to be made of the right mental stuff to continue. And I wasn't made of that stuff!!

Are you happy with your decision? Other than the competative bit?

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm definitely a small "p" professional. I'm not symphony-caliber by any stretch, but there are contractors in town who call on me to play weddings, church gigs and in pit orchestras for various shows. I used to never turn anything down because I was so excited to be asked to play, but I just turned down a multi-weekend Nutcracker gig simply because I'd rather be able to spend time with the college boy while he is home.

 

 

 

How did I get here? I had a music scholarship in college even though I was not a music major, but I quit playing after college. I hadn't touched my violin in 15 years when my oldest was cast in a youth theater production of Oliver. The music director was struggling to find string players, heard I had played, and asked me to join the pit. To make matters worse, I was the ONLY violin player in the pit and there are some giant, hairy, terrifying solos in Fagan's song. I had to go from rusty to passable in 6 weeks, but pulled it off and was asked to play again. Then a fledgling community orchestra started at my church -- a congregation filled, by the way, with lots of engineers. All these musicians came out of the woodwork many of them engineers who had flutes, trumpets or saxes sitting untouched in a closet at home. I've helped manage that group for 10 years now.

Wow! Good for you!

 

 

 

 

I now teach, too, and work to nurture and instill a love of music in my students, hoping not that they major in it but that they have the skills to play as adults. I also have been learning how to improvise and go to bluegrass jams once or twice a month. I also play chamber music every week -- quartets and trios -- with some friends who are in their 70s and 80s. Exploring a Beethoven or Mozart or other quartet is the most wonderful and satisfying way of spending an afternoon, and I hope I'm able to continue doing so for the next 30 years!

I hope your elderly friends live long healthy lives. (Can't reach the comma without disturbing cat on my lap lol).

 

 

 

 

I'm sticking with this one. Extra creativity and wisdom -- we've earned it!!

Well, you do, certainly!

 

Thank you for explaining. And I hope you find this and can answer some more of my questions. : ) I am the oldest of my generation and none of my friends are doing what I am doing, so it is nice to find someone who has succeeded in doing what I'm trying to do.

 

Nan

[JennW in SoCal]

Nan -- I seem to be quote challenged this afternoon too, so don't know if I'm answering all your questions. 

 

 

What does your husband do that makes him a good living with art? And do you think he is having his fun at work? Or does his work leave no time to experiment and improve in any way but the particular bit that he is being paid for? (Horrible sentence but hopefully you can figure out what I mean.) I can see how you might run into the busman's holiday problem. I know someone who was doing the illustrations for textbooks. She was making an ok living but I'm not sure how much room there was to do new and interesting things. She left that job and is no longer working as an artist. I guess this is true of most jobs - there not being room to try new and interesting things. Perhaps it doesn't seem quite so tragic if one isn't an artist or musician or something similar?

 

 

It is always hard being the artistic tool whose job is to realize someone else's idea.  Art directors want things redrawn, music directors want to change tempos or styles, and neither director wants to think of you as a human with feelings or ideas, or a human capable of making very human mistakes.  You are just there to make real whatever idea is inside their head.  This sounds like what your textbook illustrator was up against, and it is a situation ripe for burn out.  

 

Most creative jobs are also very deadline driven, so that the work and pressure is crazy for a period then there will be a few weeks (hopefully not more than that) of down time.  It is during the down time that my dh explores and tinkers with his work, and he is part of a collaborative team that together strives to keep the art fresh.  I think he is happy doing what he does -- those deadlines are never fun, though!  The project based nature of work is hard, too, because there is never a steady paycheck, and always the possibility of a long dry spell with no income.  That can drive lots of creative types into cubicle jobs!

 

But what are we to tell our children who want to become musicians and artists? It seems wrong to discourage them, but on the other hand, it seems wrong not to warn them that this might be the case. I guess we warn them and leave them to decide for themselves? That isn't as easy as it sounds.

 

My dh and a professional drummer friend (who was also a homeschool dad) most often talk about seeing the opposite problem -- people who have some talent and want to be a professional, but they don't put in the time to perfect their craft.  Maybe it is a function of living so close to Hollywood -- everyone wants the fame.  To be a professional artist or musician or actor or writer, it has to be your focus almost every waking hour of the day. You have to want to work on your craft All. The. Time. That passion and obsessive focus is the only way to become great at it.   And the professionals I know WERE discouraged by their parents, told they'd never make a living at it, to get a practical degree and all that.  But nothing dissuaded them!  

 

I would never discourage a kid who has talent and enjoys an artistic pursuit because I know how much enjoyment comes from doing creative things.  But if they were talking about majoring in it without exhibiting that single minded passion, yeah, I'd discourage them, talk about other careers or paths.  

 

Speaking of which.  I really have to practice this afternoon!  

 

 

[Colleen in NS]

Oh wow, Nan, congratulations!!!!!!  I'm so glad, too, to see your website and paintings finally!  Beautiful stuff!

 

And I miss participating here on the forums regularly, but this conversation (and your mullings and new questions to yoursel) is capturing me.  I'll be back to check up.

[Nan in Mass]

Nan -- I seem to be quote challenged this afternoon too, so don't know if I'm answering all your questions. 

 

 

 

It is always hard being the artistic tool whose job is to realize someone else's idea.  Art directors want things redrawn, music directors want to change tempos or styles, and neither director wants to think of you as a human with feelings or ideas, or a human capable of making very human mistakes.  You are just there to make real whatever idea is inside their head.  This sounds like what your textbook illustrator was up against, and it is a situation ripe for burn out.  

 

Most creative jobs are also very deadline driven, so that the work and pressure is crazy for a period then there will be a few weeks (hopefully not more than that) of down time.  It is during the down time that my dh explores and tinkers with his work, and he is part of a collaborative team that together strives to keep the art fresh.  I think he is happy doing what he does -- those deadlines are never fun, though!  The project based nature of work is hard, too, because there is never a steady paycheck, and always the possibility of a long dry spell with no income.  That can drive lots of creative types into cubicle jobs!

 

 

My dh and a professional drummer friend (who was also a homeschool dad) most often talk about seeing the opposite problem -- people who have some talent and want to be a professional, but they don't put in the time to perfect their craft.  Maybe it is a function of living so close to Hollywood -- everyone wants the fame.  To be a professional artist or musician or actor or writer, it has to be your focus almost every waking hour of the day. You have to want to work on your craft All. The. Time. That passion and obsessive focus is the only way to become great at it.   And the professionals I know WERE discouraged by their parents, told they'd never make a living at it, to get a practical degree and all that.  But nothing dissuaded them!  

 

I would never discourage a kid who has talent and enjoys an artistic pursuit because I know how much enjoyment comes from doing creative things.  But if they were talking about majoring in it without exhibiting that single minded passion, yeah, I'd discourage them, talk about other careers or paths.  

 

Speaking of which.  I really have to practice this afternoon!  

 

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

I totally forgot to congratulate you on the sale!!!  How could I???? 

 

Well, here it is: CONGRATS!

[Nan in Mass]

...It is always hard being the artistic tool whose job is to realize someone else's idea.  Art directors want things redrawn, music directors want to change tempos or styles, and neither director wants to think of you as a human with feelings or ideas, or a human capable of making very human mistakes.  You are just there to make real whatever idea is inside their head.  This sounds like what your textbook illustrator was up against, and it is a situation ripe for burn out.  

 

...My dh and a professional drummer friend (who was also a homeschool dad) most often talk about seeing the opposite problem -- people who have some talent and want to be a professional, but they don't put in the time to perfect their craft.  Maybe it is a function of living so close to Hollywood -- everyone wants the fame.  To be a professional artist or musician or actor or writer, it has to be your focus almost every waking hour of the day. You have to want to work on your craft All. The. Time. That passion and obsessive focus is the only way to become great at it.   And the professionals I know WERE discouraged by their parents, told they'd never make a living at it, to get a practical degree and all that.  But nothing dissuaded them!  

 

I would never discourage a kid who has talent and enjoys an artistic pursuit because I know how much enjoyment comes from doing creative things.  But if they were talking about majoring in it without exhibiting that single minded passion, yeah, I'd discourage them, talk about other careers or paths.  

 

Speaking of which.  I really have to practice this afternoon!  

 

Jenn -

 

Still thinking about this lol, and I have a question for your husband, if he wouldn't mind.  (I remembered it : ) )  I remember thinking that it was possible that the cousin doing textbook illustrations was more or less being forced to practise painting, sort of like being paid to do scales if you are a musician, that many of the artists who do realistic paintings I like (a current example would be James Gurney) also work as illustrators, and that perhaps that intensive practice has a lot to do with their "talent", with how they create the realistic effects they do.  I think this would perhaps be true on a lowish level with music (judging by my experience with classical guitar) but I don't know if it crosses over to visual arts.  Your husband and his drummer friend noticed that people don't want to put in the necessary work to become great at what they do.  Perhaps doing this for pay helps with this?  Or perhaps I'm all wrong about it and it doesn't.

 

That "passion and obsessive focus" is what my extended family call "talent".  I'm not sure they really are the same thing, but for their purposes (whether or onto to discourage a child from going into fine arts), it works.  Whether they are or aren't is another thing I think about, not in relationship to myself because I am what I am and am doing what I am doing and it really doesn't matter one way or another (and if I got to my age without doing this until now, I'm not lol), but more generally.

 

Nan

[JennW in SoCal]

  Your husband and his drummer friend noticed that people don't want to put in the necessary work to become great at what they do.  Perhaps doing this for pay helps with this?  Or perhaps I'm all wrong about it and it doesn't.

 

That "passion and obsessive focus" is what my extended family call "talent".  I'm not sure they really are the same thing, but for their purposes (whether or onto to discourage a child from going into fine arts), it works. 

 

Nan -- I actually had talked about this with my dh after I had written that previous post, just to be sure I wasn't putting words in his mouth. The answer to your question is that the passion and obsessive focus have to be there even without any pay. Basic economic motivations don't enter into it.  The kind of passion my dh and our friend had (have) for their craft was never tied to pay.  They put in the hours for years and years without pay, simply because it is all they wanted to do.  It wasn't just practicing their respective crafts, either. It was, and still is, listening to music or looking at art, constantly learning from others and training their eyes or ears to what is great and what isn't.  It is never a 9 to 5 job, but a way of life.   

 

Based off my limited experience, I think that drive and talent are two separate things, and it is quite possible to have one without the other.  Those with limited talent but huge drive can still become quite proficient at their craft.  They never may be "great artists" but they can be very successful AND very happy.  There are people who have innate talent but who don't have that drive, who are happier having a variety of interests, or studying other subjects.  There are countless community orchestras and chamber groups across the country filled with people from this category.  Then there are the lucky few who have that combination of talent and drive.

[Nan in Mass]

Nan -- I actually had talked about this with my dh after I had written that previous post, just to be sure I wasn't putting words in his mouth. The answer to your question is that the passion and obsessive focus have to be there even without any pay. Basic economic motivations don't enter into it.  The kind of passion my dh and our friend had (have) for their craft was never tied to pay.  They put in the hours for years and years without pay, simply because it is all they wanted to do.  It wasn't just practicing their respective crafts, either. It was, and still is, listening to music or looking at art, constantly learning from others and training their eyes or ears to what is great and what isn't.  It is never a 9 to 5 job, but a way of life.   

 

Based off my limited experience, I think that drive and talent are two separate things, and it is quite possible to have one without the other.  Those with limited talent but huge drive can still become quite proficient at their craft.  They never may be "great artists" but they can be very successful AND very happy.  There are people who have innate talent but who don't have that drive, who are happier having a variety of interests, or studying other subjects.  There are countless community orchestras and chamber groups across the country filled with people from this category.  Then there are the lucky few who have that combination of talent and drive.

 

LOL - This is an extremely slow conversation because I have to think in between.  It probably is a good thing it isn't in person.

 

I agree with you entirely about the talent and drive part.

 

I'm still thinking about the other part.  I know what that sort of passion and obsession feels like.  It definately is an all-the-time thing.  Some of my children have that as well and are learning to manage it.  I think of it as intensity, not passion or obsession, but obsession is a pretty good description.  I think there are ranges of intensity in people, rather than it being a have it or not thing.  I think the focus of that intensity is a different thing.  It is when the focus stays on the same thing over a long period of time that people begin to call one talented.  I'm not at all sure that is what talent really is.  I think talent is a brain wiring that allows one to do a certain thing more easily than the average brain wiring.  So so far in my thinking, we have talent (my definition), intensity, and focus.  I was assuming that my paid-to-practise example person had all three of those things, but in my own experience, having those three does not automatically mean that the person knows what the most efficient method of becoming skilled is.  And even if they know, their life circumstances might not allow them to do that.  I was wondering if the "paid to practise" scenario helped with the last two things.  If that makes sense.  Sometimes when I think about this, I think your husband answered my question, and sometimes I don't LOL.  Obviously, I need to think about it some more.

 

Nan

[Joan in GE]

Really happy for you! And it's great to get to see your work :-)

[Nan in Mass]

I'm waving across the ocean at you, Joan! Do you have snow for Christmas? And you, too, Colleen, since you are also across the ocean from me, across and a bit north.

 

Thank you so much for encouragement and comments, everyone! I can't tell you how much they all mean to me. I finally remembered there is such a thing as the like button.

 

You know something really fun? My husband started painting this year, too! He's working in water-based oils and we've had a great time comparing the differences between the two mediums. He's always wanted to paint and now I can see why - after the first few paintings (which naturally were a disaster) he has been making progress so rapidly that it is making everyone's head spin. Jenn, I will have to think about how what he is doing affects all my half-baked theories on art and creativity and practice and all. I think he throws a monkey wrench into it all. Anyway, rather than waiting patiently for me to finish painting or drawing something when we are out and about, he can paint too now, which is so much more fun. As Pooh says, "It's so much more friendly with two."

 

Nan

 

Nan

[Joan in GE]

Hi Nan - waving back!

 

We had more than a week of fog which we've never had in all the time we've been here (ok there was an afternoon or two of sun, only to have more fog) Now it's raining...but I can see snow from my window-up on a nearby mountain :-)

 

:-)

Joan

[Colleen in NS]

I'm waving across the ocean at you, Joan! Do you have snow for Christmas? And you, too, Colleen, since you are also across the ocean from me, across and a bit north.

 

Thank you so much for encouragement and comments, everyone! I can't tell you how much they all mean to me. I finally remembered there is such a thing as the like button.

 

You know something really fun? My husband started painting this year, too! He's working in water-based oils and we've had a great time comparing the differences between the two mediums. He's always wanted to paint and now I can see why - after the first few paintings (which naturally were a disaster) he has been making progress so rapidly that it is making everyone's head spin. Jenn, I will have to think about how what he is doing affects all my half-baked theories on art and creativity and practice and all. I think he throws a monkey wrench into it all. Anyway, rather than waiting patiently for me to finish painting or drawing something when we are out and about, he can paint too now, which is so much more fun. As Pooh says, "It's so much more friendly with two."

 

Nan

 

Nan

 

We've had two snowstorms this week, so there is snow on the ground.  But it could melt before Christmas.

 

I am so, so, SO excited for you and your new adventure!!

 

 

[Nan in Mass]

I think we are going to lose our lovely snow this weekend, too, and be stuck with a green Christmas.  We have about 6 inches now.

 

Colleen, you've been having adventures, too, haven't you?  Can you tell me about them?

 

That's strange, Joan, about the fog.  That sounds more like England than Switzerland.  I was going to say that at least you have snowy mountains to look at, but that won't work if you're fogbound.

 

Nan

[Patches]

I love your pictures ! 

 

[Colleen in NS]

 

 

Colleen, you've been having adventures, too, haven't you?  Can you tell me about them?

 

 

I will try to do this next week.  :D