S/O, S/O - How do you define middle class?

[AlmiraGulch]

My daughter just asked us what we are, from a socioeconomic class status.  I told her "middle class" without giving it a second thought, but then I decided to look it up.

 

Turns out there is no real consensus on what defines each class, particularly in the U.S.  Most look strictly at income levels, but in my mind it's more accurate to look at total net worth.  You can make a lot less money than others but also have a lot less overall debt load and be better off financially (of course).

 

So, in your mind, what do you consider to be middle class?  If it's income level, what income do you think is the cutoff for middle class?  If it's net worth, what then?

 

I have a hard time looking at anyone who makes, say $100k as anything less than middle class, but then that person could be up to their eyeballs in debt, which would make them poor, really.

 

For what it's worth, I'd say I'm solidly middle class, regardless.  I think a lot of is defined by your mindset. 

[mommymilkies]

I don't see it as mindset. Someone who is very humble and makes millions is upper class, not middle class. I think there is a little leeway in the "scale", especially dependent on where you live. I consider middle class to be earning a living wage-you aren't paycheck to paycheck, you have moderate savings, a reliable car and middle range housing (not homeless, not in a gated community, etc.), you can afford a moderate vacation a year, things like that. 

 

If we are referencing the American Middle Class, that is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_middle_class  There are lower/middle/upper Middle Class, too.  I can guess my family would be lower middle.  We have college educations, large debt, working class/blue collar backgrounds, and live paycheck to paycheck, though dh has a professional job (college instructor/professor), while I worked in healthcare. Looking at the charts on the wiki link, dh makes considerably less than average for his job and education because it's a tough market even though he's a physical scientist. Apparently he should have gone to pharmacy school, after all. 

[AlmiraGulch]

I don't see it as mindset. Someone who is very humble and makes millions is upper class, not middle class. I think there is a little leeway in the "scale", especially dependent on where you live. I consider middle class to be earning a living wage-you aren't paycheck to paycheck, you have moderate savings, a reliable car and middle range housing (not homeless, not in a gated community, etc.), you can afford a moderate vacation a year, things like that. 

 

If we are referencing the American Middle Class, that is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_middle_class  There are lower/middle/upper Middle Class, too.  I can guess my family would be lower middle.  We have college educations, large debt, working class/blue collar backgrounds, and live paycheck to paycheck, though dh has a professional job (college instructor/professor), while I worked in healthcare. Looking at the charts on the wiki link, dh makes considerably less than average for his job and education because it's a tough market even though he's a physical scientist. Apparently he should have gone to pharmacy school, after all. 

 

You make a good point here.  I haven't thought of it that way. 

 

I guess I just think that so many people look at income level, and I mean solely at income level, and make assumptions about where people stand.  I think that's misguided.  

[AlmiraGulch]

So here's another interesting thing.  According to the wikipedia article linked, my husband and I are actually different "classes", strictly speaking.  I suppose if you combine our incomes and look at household income, then we're the same since we're one household.  But if you look at the other indicators, i.e., education level, speech patterns, class "manners", I'm in one and he's in another.

 

Weird.  

[mommymilkies]

You make a good point here.  I haven't thought of it that way. 

 

I guess I just think that so many people look at income level, and I mean solely at income level, and make assumptions about where people stand.  I think that's misguided.  

I agree to a certain degree.  To me, making six digits is beyond rich.  But I am poor and from the Midwest.  To me, that'd be like bathing in dollar bills.  :lol:  But I also have family in NYC and know that that's barely making a living wage in some areas. 

 

 

So here's another interesting thing.  According to the wikipedia article linked, my husband and I are actually different "classes", strictly speaking.  I suppose if you combine our incomes and look at household income, then we're the same since we're one household.  But if you look at the other indicators, i.e., education level, speech patterns, class "manners", I'm in one and he's in another.

 

Weird.  

Makes sense. Dh and I also would be.  His family were relatively poor farming folk and blue collar factor workers.  Mine were mining Appalachian folk, but my stepfather was from an upper class Jewish family, so I had some of both growing up.  We were personally poor, but I had glimpses into lives with Operas, classical music, nice cars, private school educations, trust funds, and mansions.  So I can behave myself in proper company but still camp out barefoot in the woods with moonshiners.  :lol:  My speech is very much so lower class with a twang while dh has the non-accented Midwestern accent.  I can speak properly when I try, though, and I'm rather good at imitating accents. 

[AlmiraGulch]

Yeah, $100K in NY or Boston or San Fran doesn't get you what it does in St. Louis (my hometown), for sure.  

[AlmiraGulch]

 

 So I can behave myself in proper company but still camp out barefoot in the woods with moonshiners.  :lol:  My speech is very much so lower class with a twang while dh has the non-accented Midwestern accent.  I can speak properly when I try, though, and I'm rather good at imitating accents. 

 

Me, too!  All of this!  Including the accent part, which is a little annoying, really.  I tend to take on the accents of people I'm with, although not intentionally.  It's not a put-on.  I don't even notice I'm doing it.  It aggravates me about myself when people point it out. 

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

I heard/read somewhere that far more people, on either side of the bell curve, identify as middle class than actually are in terms of straight $$.  Since pols of every stripe trot it out at rallies from barns to banquet halls, I suspect it's one of those vaguely aspirational, non-threatening terms way more political than objective.

 

But that's just me.

 

[mommymilkies]

Me, too!  All of this!  Including the accent part, which is a little annoying, really.  I tend to take on the accents of people I'm with, although not intentionally.  It's not a put-on.  I don't even notice I'm doing it.  It aggravates me about myself when people point it out. 

lol  I didn't realize I did it, either, for a long time.  Particularly when I read a book with dialect.  My daughter pointed it out when I read Tom Sawyer, and my husband always points out that I slip into deep Appalachian when I'm with my family.  But I can also do a bit of a brogue when I read books like The Moorchild.  I'll blame it on my varied upbringing.  :lol:

[DawnM]

Wiki says middle class can be anywhere from 20K-100K.  That is a huge, huge range and I wouldn't put the lower end of that in the middle class arena, but whatever.

 

I liked the definition of professional class:

 

 

The "professional class", also called the "upper middle class", consists mostly of highly educated white collar salaried professionals, whose work is largely self-directed. Household incomes commonly exceed $100,000.^[2][5][11] Class members typically hold graduate degrees, with educational attainment serving as the main distinguishing feature of this class.^[2][12]

These professionals typically conceptualize, create, consult, and supervise. As a result, upper middle class employees enjoy great autonomy in the work place and are more satisfied with their careers than non-professional middle class individuals.

 

I have often said class has more to it than money alone.

[AlmiraGulch]

I heard/read somewhere that far more people, on either side of the bell curve, identify as middle class than actually are in terms of straight $$.  Since pols of every stripe trot it out at rallies from barns to banquet halls, I suspect it's one of those vaguely aspirational, non-threatening terms way more political than objective.

 

But that's just me.

 

 

You know who doesn't aspire to the middle class?  

 

Rich people.  The politicians who campaign on its virtues.  haha

 

[AlmiraGulch]

Well, in my city it means you can afford a deposit for, get out a mortgage for and pay off a house in which you and your children have adequate space for living and working. You will be able to vacation once or twice a year in your own country. You can pay for two or more extra curriculars.  You rumble about bills but don't ever have to juggle necessities to pay them. You have one and a half incomes coming into the house and are building a superannuation account for retirement. You have house insurance and income insurance. You keep regular dental and doctor checkups.

 

By my own definition we are working class but not poor. I have my eye on middle class.

 

This, in my estimation, is a great definition.  I think this coincides with what I'd say, even though I couldn't define it like you just did.  

[Renee in NC]

Wiki says middle class can be anywhere from 20K-100K.  That is a huge, huge range and I wouldn't put the lower end of that in the middle class arena, but whatever.

 

I liked the definition of professional class:

 

 

The "professional class", also called the "upper middle class", consists mostly of highly educated white collar salaried professionals, whose work is largely self-directed. Household incomes commonly exceed $100,000.^[2][5][11] Class members typically hold graduate degrees, with educational attainment serving as the main distinguishing feature of this class.^[2][12]

These professionals typically conceptualize, create, consult, and supervise. As a result, upper middle class employees enjoy great autonomy in the work place and are more satisfied with their careers than non-professional middle class individuals.

 

I have often said class has more to it than money alone.

 

By this description, I am upper middle class.  I wish someone would tell my bank account that!  :lol:

[Ottakee]

According to the charts we are working to lower middle class but I think we do OK. We have a house paid in full, 2 vehicles plus a farm truck (actually suburban) paid in full, no consumer debt, etc.

 

We don't have as much in retirement as I wish or in savings but we aren't hurting either. We live quite a basic lifestyle, shop sales, buy used, etc.

[AlmiraGulch]

By this description, I am upper middle class.  I wish someone would tell my bank account that!  :lol:

 

Yeah, me too.  Sigh. 

[AlmiraGulch]

According to the charts we are working to lower middle class but I think we do OK. We have a house paid in full, 2 vehicles plus a farm truck (actually suburban) paid in full, no consumer debt, etc.

 

We don't have as much in retirement as I wish or in savings but we aren't hurting either. We live quite a basic lifestyle, shop sales, buy used, etc.

 

This is exactly what prompted my question. 

 

According to the "chart", we're upper middle class.  You're much better off financially, though, with everything paid off.  

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

So at 3 courses shy of ABD, and at the tippy top of the district salary guide, DW is professional class. It would appear I married up, and thus now I feel a great longing fot a valet. And the smell of leather.

 

Wait, wiki says I have to do received pronounciation?

[Carrie12345]

I don't have any hard numbers set in my head, but I think of American "classes" as income, with net worth being a different (even if more telling) story. If 3 families make the same amount of money, one invests like crazy, one spends every dime, and one spends over and above, accruing debt, that's their business, but they're basically starting from the same point.

[Wheres Toto]

Well, according to the article, as a household we are upper middle class.  When dh is working that is.  He is a scientific professional/executive making enough that we can easily get by on his (usually barely 6 figures) salary alone.  

 

My salary alone is at the very top of the lower middle class range given.    But it's true that there's a big difference between what that salary can do here in NJ compared to the midwest or southern states.

[Crimson Wife]

Income, net worth, and class are 3 different things. Class takes into account income but also things like family background, education, occupation, etc. A person can be rich without being upper class, and a person can have a low income without being lower or working class.

[Lisbeth]

In college I was assigned Class by Paul Fussell. An older and snarky ... and scathing look at class in the US. In it middle class: defined more by earnestness and insecurity than income. Anxiety about offending, extreme cleanliness, overuse of compliments, legible clothing, sweet, bland food, offense at privacy in others, being shifted around from city to city by their workplaces, pretention, snobbery in some cases, the desire to belong (excessive), suspicion of introversion, public wealth displays (expensive car), unrealistic optimism, using ridiculously big words or professional jargon to impress, wanting a perfect and symetrical yard, displaying big tvs proudly, etc.... Snarky.

[KungFuPanda]

I like Jeff Foxworthy's answer: "If your name is on your shirt, you're poor. If your name is on your desk, you're middle class. If your name is on the building, you're rich." :-)

[AlmiraGulch]

In college I was assigned Class by Paul Fussell. An older and snarky ... and scathing look at class in the US. In it middle class: defined more by earnestness and insecurity than income. Anxiety about offending, extreme cleanliness, overuse of compliments, legible clothing, sweet, bland food, offense at privacy in others, being shifted around from city to city by their workplaces, pretention, snobbery in some cases, the desire to belong (excessive), suspicion of introversion, public wealth displays (expensive car), unrealistic optimism, using ridiculously big words or professional jargon to impress, wanting a perfect and symetrical yard, displaying big tvs proudly, etc.... Snarky.

 

How interesting.  What a completely unflattering picture!  

[AlmiraGulch]

I like Jeff Foxworthy's answer: "If your name is on your shirt, you're poor. If your name is on your desk, you're middle class. If your name is on the building, you're rich." :-)

 

Now THIS I can understand. :-)

[mom2scouts]

I think the concept of class is very interesting.  If you looked at our income and assets right now we would be considered low income/lower class, but we have college educations in a professional field, a house in a lower middle class neighborhood, and friends who are mostly middle and upper middle class.  I think class involves much more than income and the range of people who consider themselves middle class is huge.

[Dandelion]

It seems like the term middle class has been co-opted by politicians and pundits.  Everyone loves to talk about how they "support the middle class", and yet there's no official definition that can be found anywhere.  Even various branches of the government, top economists, etc. don't agree.  

 

Based on some articles I've recently read, the majority of Americans define themselves as middle class - with an income range of $20K-$150K per year on either end of the spectrum.  Some reports I read indicated that close to 80% of Americans consider themselves middle class. Given that, it seems that it's more of a mindset or value rather than economically based.

 

I'm not a fan of class distinctions, because I don't see the value in them (why use them, when no one agrees on the definition?).  Especially when you're bundling such a large, incredibly diverse group into a definition such as "middle class".  It's helpful to talk about income, net worth, cultural values, social values, etc. - but none of those fit neatly into class (lower, middle, upper) distinctions IMO.  

 

To me, middle class is loosely defined by attributes such as home ownership, full employment of at least one adult in the family, relative financial stability, attention to education of children (if any) to include college if desired, ability to have some "extras" (like vacations, entertainment, etc.), and relatively secure retirement options.  But I don't really use the term middle class - I prefer to talk about more specific groups/attributes where there's greater agreement on definitions. 

 

[Laura Corin]

Here's the mess that is the British class system.  Just so you know: 'going to stately homes' means paying to tour them, not being invited as a guest.

 

L