$$$ s/o Dave Ramsey: Why are YOU rich/poor/other?

[Dandelion]

We are very comfortable.  

 

 

What contributed to that:

 

DH and I both have graduate degrees (both MBAs - DH's undergrad is EE and mine is Bus. Admin.).

 

DH attended West Point for his undergrad = no college debt (DH still serves as an officer in the Army Reserves in addition to his civilian job).

 

We had kids late in life (by choice), allowing us more time to work and save/invest (had our first child when I was 32 and DH was 36).

 

We both worked full-time, in well-paying jobs, until DS was 5 years old and I decided to stay home.

 

Being in the Army Reserves has allowed DH to bridge gaps in employment.  When he was laid off, he was able to go full-time in the Reserves (the pay was less, but we've never had long stretches of unemployment to contend with).  That did result in a yearlong deployment to the Middle East in 2008, but it prevented adverse financial impacts. 

 

We don't live beyond our means (with the exception of some foolishness on my part during my 20's, we've spent much less on housing, cars, etc. than we can afford).

 

We are completely debt-free (haven't had anything but mortgage debt for the last 10 years, and paid off the mortgages on both our house and a second house we bought for my mom about 3 years ago).

 

We max(ed) out our 401K and IRA contributions (DH did so almost from the start - I did so starting around age 30).

 

We've been putting money into 529 college plans for the kids from the time each was born.

 

DH is very knowledgable about investments, and has invested our money in stocks that have weathered the ups and downs of the market fairly well.

 

 

Other factors that have helped:

 

We are both in good health (minor health issues, but nothing devastating).  Our kids are in good health (DS is on the autism spectrum, but therapies have been covered by insurance). 

 

With the exception of our early 20's (which was before we were married), we've always had jobs that provided good health insurance.

 

We both worked in the tech industry for a few years before the tech bubble burst (which provided us with great stock options).

 

 

[mytwomonkeys]

Not wealthy here but we are happy and comfortable. I'm a stay at home mom & my husband works full time doing something he loves. We both have degrees. We live on a budget & below our means to allow for savings. We always leave money for fun, (but even that is budgeted for). We follow Dave Ramsey's advice pretty closely, and its worked great for us.

[LibraryLover]

.dp

 

[Jane in NC]

Most people whom I know work hard.  If hard work alone determined compensation, I think there might be greater financial equality.

 

We are comfortable--more than comfortable. Like many on this board, we live below our means. We have invested wisely--and fortuitously.  Let's be honest.  The 07/08 tumble hit some of our board friends hard in terms of jobs and in college fund/retirement balances.  I won't claim great wisdom, probably more luck, in noting that our investments weathered the downturn well.  My husband works in an industry that was less affected by the downturn than others.

 

We purchased a home in our area pre-bubble.  Had we waited five years, home prices would have doubled. They had tripled by the time of the crash.  So despite the economic downturn, housing prices here remain far above the prices that we saw when we entered the market.  This is not true for my friends. Two have been foreclosed; one will soon sign a contract above her buying price but not at the profit she hoped to make.  At least she is not underwater.

 

My husband's parents were generous in supporting my husband during undergrad.  I was fortunate to receive significant scholarships.  We both earned a paltry stipend as grad students in Mathematics.  It was enough to pay rent, buy food and books and pay for mass transit fares. It would not have covered car payments.  My husband's parents generously gave him an old car.

 

My husband and I had similar a similar upbringing so it has always been easy for us to have shared common financial goals.  We have never required instant gratification.  We have always been disciplined savers.

 

Apparently we have good genes and have shared those with our son.  Despite the occasional round of medical/dental treatment, our health care costs have been reasonable---and we have had health insurance for all of our married life.

 

Frankly I think I am one of the most fortunate women in the world.

 

[LibraryLover]

Most people whom I know work hard.  If hard work alone determined compensation, I think there might be greater financial equality.

 

We are comfortable--more than comfortable. Like many on this board, we live below our means. We have invested wisely--and fortuitously.  Let's be honest.  The 07/08 tumble hit some of our board friends hard in terms of jobs and in college fund/retirement balances.  I won't claim great wisdom, probably more luck, in noting that our investments weathered the downturn well.  My husband works in an industry that was less affected by the downturn than others.

 

We purchased a home in our area pre-bubble.  Had we waited five years, home prices would have doubled. They had tripled by the time of the crash.  So despite the economic downturn, housing prices here remain far above the prices that we saw when we entered the market.  This is not true for my friends. Two have been foreclosed; one will soon sign a contract above her buying price but not at the profit she hoped to make.  At least she is not underwater.

 

My husband's parents were generous in supporting my husband during undergrad.  I was fortunate to receive significant scholarships.  We both earned a paltry stipend as grad students in Mathematics.  It was enough to pay rent, buy food and books and pay for mass transit fares. It would not have covered car payments.  My husband's parents generously gave him an old car.

 

My husband and I had similar a similar upbringing so it has always been easy for us to have shared common financial goals.  We have never required instant gratification.  We have always been disciplined savers.

 

Apparently we have good genes and have shared those with our son.  Despite the occasional round of medical/dental treatment, our health care costs have been reasonable---and we have had health insurance for all of our married life.

 

Frankly I think I am one of the most fortunate women in the world.

 

yes.

I agree. Certainly we've all worked, yet I know poor people working like dogs, but they still can't go to the dentist.

 

Where I am currently working, I see the poorest of the (US) poor on a daily basis. I also see the incredibly rich. (who, lets face it,  are mostly white.) The poor people are sicker as well...whether from stress, genetics, poor food or a combination of it all. These very poor folks are all scrambling to get a foothold. Rent is so costly, gas, even train fare. Food, crazy $. How can they get ahead in such an inflated economy?  I feel for those going to school-- when they graduate they will have some loans. It's not that cheap to attend even a CC. As for scholarships, we have to realize that some folks start life at a disadvantage. If a baby lives in an industrial area, or in a home covered in lead dust...well...knocks against you that are not going to be easily overcome.

 

[Excelsior! Academy]

Fairly comfortable. We no longer have to choose between food, medical care, or clothing. I can purchase the types of food I want within a specified budget. If I want to take a child for ice cream or to buy new shoes I can. Bigger purchases (summer camp, not a car) may need to be planned ahead a bit, but are not out of the question. We are able to take a cross country vacation every year or two and are debt free with the exception of a mortgage. I attribute a lot of it to Dave Ramsey and have no idea why every hates him so much. Life has given us difficulties at times and blessings at others.

 

 

Negatives:

Feeling unprepared for adulthood, therefore learning financial management the hard way

Marrying young with no money. Love will only get you so far...

Student loans, credit card debt, purchasing things that felt like necessities at the time, but in hindsight were not

Quitting my job, which contributed little more than extracurriculars for the children

Doubling family overnight with no warning and immediately loosing 5% of dh's salary

 

Positives:

Working our tails off per Dave Ramsey

Use it up, make it work, or do without

Beans and rice, when we tire of that, rice and beans

Generosity of others

A whole lot of our clothing and furnishings come from hand-me-downs and Goodwill

Prayer and Christian support

Creativity

[LostSurprise]

Comfortable...to me. Not rich. No vacations or special extras, but without debts (except mortgage) and our budget is still a bit flexible. 

 

Positives: 

 

I was raised with a good understanding of money (planning, delayed gratification, budgeting). Thrifty. Living below our means.

We're a good team who communicate well and worked out important financial concepts before we married. 

Raised to appreciate education (both of us paid for it ourselves). 

Dh is in a STEM field and is a hard worker who leveraged an internship into a good job. 

We moved to a low COL area (real estate particularly), so it would be easier for me to stay home. Dh recognized stagnancy in his first job and moved to a new one. 

 

Obstacles: 

 

Had children right away. I didn't have time to finish my Master's degree or establish my career. Not a difficult obstacle, just one which required greater thrift and patience. 

 

Our youngest developed a severe medical disorder which needs a lot of one-on-one care. It means I can't finish my degree or move onto the next section of my career (which was supposed to finance our children's college educations, renovate our home, and contribute to our retirement). This has nothing to do with good genes or healthy living. Sometimes bad things just happen and we have to work with those things. 

 

Having a child with a medical condition means it is darn hard to change jobs. It doesn't matter if dh wants more this or that in his career...suddenly things like medical insurance, the location of specialists, and work flexibility are very important. 

 

 

 

All in all, I would say we are comfortable despite our obstacles. I don't feel worried about money, but we don't have extras. Our children know that our money is tied up in our youngest's condition and don't have high expectations for large gifts, funded college educations, vacations, classes, or other things. 

 

 

 

 

[Crimson Wife]

By coincidence, dd16 was reading the book Nickel and Dimed, where the journalist lives or attempts to live employed in minimum wage jobs.

 

The obstacles to success from that starting point are extreme. It was an eye opener for me, and I'm already a bleeding heart liberal.

Except that plenty of successful people I know started out in exactly that kind of low-wage service job. They just didn't allow themselves to become trapped in it long term.

 

My first job out of college paid about $1 more per hour than the minimum wage at the time. Within 4 years I had almost quadrupled my annual income and had worked my way up into a jr. executive position.

 

The problem isn't the existence of low wage entry level jobs. Everyone has to start somewhere and people who don't yet have much experience or skills are not going to find employers willing to pay them big bucks. The problem is that so many people get stuck in them. It's one thing to be working retail or food service in one's late teens; it's quite another to still be working there in one's 30's or beyond.

[Laura Corin]

 

The problem isn't the existence of low wage entry level jobs. Everyone has to start somewhere and people who don't yet have much experience or skills are not going to find employers willing to pay them big bucks. The problem is that so many people get stuck in them. It's one thing to be working retail or food service in one's late teens; it's quite another to still be working there in one's 30's or beyond.

 

It's worth reading the book if you haven't.  If you are in a minimum wage job but living with parents, for example, then I'm sure that advancement is possible.  The book describes the way that people who are on minimum wage and don't have a deposit/free family accommodation end up living in motels, which are expensive and they therefore can't build up a deposit, so they have to stay in the motel....

 

L

[Jane in NC]

Except that plenty of successful people I know started out in exactly that kind of low-wage service job. They just didn't allow themselves to become trapped in it long term.

 

My first job out of college paid about $1 more per hour than the minimum wage at the time. Within 4 years I had almost quadrupled my annual income and had worked my way up into a jr. executive position.

 

The problem isn't the existence of low wage entry level jobs. Everyone has to start somewhere and people who don't yet have much experience or skills are not going to find employers willing to pay them big bucks. The problem is that so many people get stuck in them. It's one thing to be working retail or food service in one's late teens; it's quite another to still be working there in one's 30's or beyond.

 

Those who grow up with a family culture of education have an easier path climbing out of those low wage jobs.  My parents valued books but did not understand how college worked.  It never occurred to them that one college might be better than another.  I might have had a more successful corporate life had I attended a different undergrad. It turned out though that I despised the corporate world and jumped ship after a few years for grad school and then working as a college instructor.  Granted, I would never have gotten as comfortable as I am today if I was supporting myself by working in education.  My husband is the corporate guy.  World of difference.

 

My husband's dad, on the other hand, was a college prof.  His parents were able to provide a better support structure for their children's academic needs. 

 

My parents were savers but did not understand investments other than CDs and passbook savings. I educated myself on other financial matters and have since educated my son. People who have trouble finding two nickels to scrape together are certainly not going to discus the merits of dividend paying stocks to their kids!

 

[ficbot]

We are okay, but working on it. He makes a good income, but has a chronic health condition which costs money, and is recovering from a costly divorce. In January, his payments for that will go way down, but it will probably take him the rest of the year to replenish his savings and build up a reserve fund again. I have been paying for some stuff I would not otherwise be paying for, and want to build my reserves up again too. I also am blessed to have a full-time job in a field where jobs are tight right now, but the trade-off is that my boss can get away with paying us a lot less than we should be getting because she knows we can't do better...

 

Next year will be a recovery year, but we are in a good position---his cash flow will improve, I have become eligible via common law rules to go on his health insurance so that will save me some money, and his divorce stuff is finally taken care of. We'll be okay :)

[momto2Cs]

To be absolutely honest, we live paycheck to paycheck. And we have debt. DH is unemployed, but searching hard for employment, and I do work, but only part-time. We manage to pay our bills, keep the mortgage paid, and we have enough to eat, so I at least have all that to be thankful for! I am switching from pursuing an MA at the moment to working on a teaching credential, as I think it will be more immediately worthwhile.

 

We're working hard on our budgeting skills, and when DH has a job again, I think we'll start making some progress on the debt.

[Hunter's Moon]

DH and I are "poor," and I would say entirely by choice. 

 

We married very young (20 and just turned 19). We are blessed to have families who love and support us, and want to see us succeed. We are blessed that my MIL does not ask for rent money, just requests we help around the house as she has arthritis and takes care of her wheelchair-bound mother 24/7. She would rather we focus on our schoolwork. 

 

DH graduates in May with his BA in Management, and plans to pursue his MBA immediately after, while working full-time. Of course, that depends if he can land a job, but we are taking it step-by-step. We plan to move out Winter of '14 or Spring of '15. I write articles for an online broker for spending money for our needs. 

 

It is definitely hard to be in this situation. It is frustrating to be helped by so many generous people and not be able to give back (monetarily) in return. But what DH and I are doing is preparing us for a better future and we are lucky to have such supportive families. 

 

ETA: I put poor in parentheses because we have a roof over our heads, food to eat, climate appropriate clothing, medical care, and are both getting an education. A lot more than many others can say, and which we are both very grateful. 

[PeacefulChaos]

That Dave Ramsey thread is wearing me out.  Bicker, bicker!

 

So, I wonder who is up for a frank conversation about their finances.  

 

Are you rich?  Poor? In debt?  Comfortable?  Stretched, but okay?  

 

Who is responsible for your situation?  Is it due to your own decisions? A medical crisis?  Family money?  Stock options?  Reckless spending?  Not enough education?  Too much education (school debt dragging you down)? The recession? Careful planning?  Or something else?

 

We are comfortable on one teacher salary.  We have no debt -- not even mortgage any more.  We have had some family help, but also are very careful about our spending.  

 

We would have more money if I had been working more the past 15 years, but I'm glad to have stayed home with the boys.  Work is back on the horizon in the next couple years for me.

 

Anyone else?

 

(And no bickering!)

I haven't gotten on in a week or two, so I have no idea about the DR thread lol… but those usually get weird for one reason or another.  Idky.   :p

 

We're stretched.  I wouldn't say we're poor, per se - we're surviving.  To me, poor = not available to have basic necessities.  We have all that and a little extra.  We would have more extra if we didn't have debt, but it is what it is.  DH needs to make more, but we are where we are because of circumstances of life.  We've got a few medical bills, but nothing crazy - less than $1000 total (not counting my LASIK).  We don't have a house payment (we rent) or a car payment, but we do have some credit cards (also not a whole lot, though I'd like to get them paid off and out of my hair).  DH made more before than he does now, and while, sure, it would be nice to be at that income level again, we just aren't, and I don't really think about it or care about it all that much.

As far as who is responsible?  Eh… Idk.  We've never been rich.  Our families aren't rich (and even if they were we wouldn't just live off them or accept money from them unless it was willed to us or something).  I'm a little impulsive, and was raised in a family where we were capable of buying what we wanted.  We weren't extravagant spenders still - it was just our way of life.  We bargain shopped to an extent (not like couponers and all that craziness - ain't nobody got time for that) and overall just did what we did.  We ate out a few times a week.  So when I got married, there was a mindset that I had that I could still do that.  I still think that a lot, and maybe we'd be better off if I didn't, but it's really not a big deal.  I have gone to WalMart at 10pm on a Saturday night because I really wanted a pair of white jeans to wear on Sunday morning to church.  I wasn't breaking the bank to spend $20 on jeans, so I don't really think it matters.  Does that make sense?  

Long term goals mean very little to me.  We've had the same ones for years - and I really don't think about them much.  The only thing I've EVER actually cared enough about to put other things aside for (like going out for dessert with friends, buying clothes for myself, etc) was my trip to Thailand, which I paid for myself by getting a couple part time jobs.  $3750 in 5 months was pretty good, IMNSHO.   :D  But other stuff?  Meh.  

I don't really care all that much about it all.  That's probably why DR doesn't appeal to me.   :)

 

ETA: I wanted to add - sometimes I think, hey, if I went and got an education in something and a full time job in that something, it could really make a huge difference.  But that would require sending the kids to school - which I'm not opposed to, though I don't love the local system.  I dislike school hours more than I dislike school itself (I actually don't dislike school itself at all).   

Honestly, the main reason I don't is because I don't have anything in life that I really WANT to make a career out of.  I never have.  So that whole mindset, having a 'passion' for a certain field, etc, is foreign to both DH and I.  He works as a means to feed us/provide for us.  Not because he loves it.  when he looks at switching jobs, it's because it would make more, not because he dislikes what he currently does or thinks he would really like something else.  A job is just a job for him (but don't get me wrong, he works his backside off doing whatever he does).  And I'm not trying to say he switches jobs either - he'd still be doing the same thing today as he was 11 years ago if it weren't for the whole no one building houses thing a few years back. ;)  

I can't see myself going back to school and putting the kids in school, etc, if it weren't for something that I was really serious about.  Things fly by me all the time that I think I could like.  But does that mean I'm willing to sacrifice for them?  Nope.  I know myself well enough to know that if I wait a few months, I'll usually change my mind.  When I find something that I haven't changed my mind on after that time, I'll sign up.  :D  

[Shamzanne]

This thread has been an interesting read.

 

I guess we are poor, technically. I just checked and we live below the poverty line. Some factors:

 

-My parents were very poor when I was born (my mom still has her budget from that first year), but through scrimping and saving, living below their means, and hard work they now are rich.

-They did not help with college (with a few tiny exceptions) but their income precluded me from getting financial aid or subsidized loans.

-I am not very ambitious. I got married and had a baby before finishing college and just wanted to be a stay at home, homeschooling mom, basically.

-Unfortunately, my husband became abusive and I had to divorce him when my daughter was one year old. He didn't start paying child support until she was 4 years old, but he now pays faithfully.

-I prayed for a way to be home with my daughter, and have been able to scrimp by working part time jobs from home since my divorce.

-I have wealthy and generous parents who have helped me through a few scrapes.

 

Although poor, we are comfortable because we share life and a household with members of my church (we all live somewhat communally). We share a huge house between nine of us and share the mortgage, utilities, and food expenses.

 

Another factor is that I have consciously chosen this life in many ways. I have always intended to live simply and have never desired to be wealthy. Part of my commitment to my church is to not let money or jobs be a deciding factor in my life - I would not move for a better job or promotion. My church and our place in our community come first. It is more of a sacrifice for others in the church who have turned down fancy job offers many times.

 

Even with all of this, there are times it is tough to be "poor" (for the US). The two things that come up most often for me - worries about healthcare and hospitality. I would love to be able to invite people over more often without worrying about the cost.

 

There are not many single parents who are able to stay at home and homeschool, so I am very thankful for truly having the desire of my heart.

[SKL]

The interesting thing is, I have also never aspired to be "rich."  All I wanted was to feel secure.  I wanted to feel like if I suddenly lost my job and didn't find another one right away, I'd be OK.  And I came at this from different angles.  Including helping others and nurturing relationships, "just in case" someday I needed to live in someone's basement.  Once I had a little nest egg, I kept saving with the goal of being able to quit working all together if I ever got fed up.  But these goals were quantified based on my living on a very low budget.

 

Just around the time I felt I had enough saved to feel secure, I adopted my kids and quit my job, going full-time as one of three partners in a small business.  The three of us work our butts off and take calculated risks.  We live exactly like we lived before, but our tax bills keep going up.  That's the only way we know we're high income.  ;)

[LostSurprise]

Except that plenty of successful people I know started out in exactly that kind of low-wage service job. They just didn't allow themselves to become trapped in it long term.

 

 

The problem isn't the existence of low wage entry level jobs. Everyone has to start somewhere and people who don't yet have much experience or skills are not going to find employers willing to pay them big bucks. The problem is that so many people get stuck in them. It's one thing to be working retail or food service in one's late teens; it's quite another to still be working there in one's 30's or beyond.

 

Those who grow up with a family culture of education have an easier path climbing out of those low wage jobs.  

 

 

I think a lot of educated people believe that their education protects them from being stuck in a low paying position.

 

All it takes is being fired from your position as you enter middle age and have it done during a time period where there is a slight recession or enough workers in that career to meet need. Having experience is helpful, but it can also work against you. No one wants to hire you for entry level positions in your field anymore because they don't believe you'll stay in the position. After a few years, no one wants to hire you for your previous position anymore. 

 

Basically you have to start over. If you have a family you have to do whatever you can do to keep that going. Often any savings you had went to trying to save the house or moving to find another position. Usually by the time 3-7 years has gone by and you realize you have no chance of getting back to where you were you're back in a low paying position, just trying to make it day by day, wondering if it's worth forking out thousands of dollars more for a different education, wondering if they'll loan you the money for that since you had to file bankruptcy. God help you if anyone develops a medical condition or there's a divorce. You can get permanently stuck in the struggle. 

 

I get tired of the stereotypes. There are a lot of people who are ignorant about how to get themselves out of poverty, but there are also a lot of middle and upper class people who have no idea how much luck plays a part in their success. They've made some good decisions, but sometimes you can make every decision well and success will not be there. Things happen. Timing is wrong. Jobs disappear. Not everyone has someone to boost them up when the world spins the other way. Sometimes success is not making it into the middle or upper classes but just boosting yourself back into the working class when everything is against you.  I've seen some masterful lives on those fringes. 

[Upward Journey]

I think a lot of educated people believe that their education protects them from being stuck in a low paying position.

 

All it takes is being fired from your position as you enter middle age and have it done during a time period where there is a slight recession or enough workers in that career to meet need. Having experience is helpful, but it can also work against you. No one wants to hire you for entry level positions in your field anymore because they don't believe you'll stay in the position. After a few years, no one wants to hire you for your previous position anymore.

 

Basically you have to start over. If you have a family you have to do whatever you can do to keep that going. Often any savings you had went to trying to save the house or moving to find another position. Usually by the time 3-7 years has gone by and you realize you have no chance of getting back to where you were you're back in a low paying position, just trying to make it day by day, wondering if it's worth forking out thousands of dollars more for a different education, wondering if they'll loan you the money for that since you had to file bankruptcy. God help you if anyone develops a medical condition or there's a divorce. You can get permanently stuck in the struggle.

 

I get tired of the stereotypes. There are a lot of people who are ignorant about how to get themselves out of poverty, but there are also a lot of middle and upper class people who have no idea how much luck plays a part in their success. They've made some good decisions, but sometimes you can make every decision well and success will not be there. Things happen. Timing is wrong. Jobs disappear. Not everyone has someone to boost them up when the world spins the other way. Sometimes success is not making it into the middle or upper classes but just boosting yourself back into the working class when everything is against you. I've seen some masterful lives on those fringes.

Now that I've had the opportunity to live this, I know how very true these words are. Ten years ago I would have said you had no idea what you were talking about, but life has shown me differently.

[lovinmomma]

I've done the one meal thing too, far too often.  But my kids are home so I make sure they get the food first and if there is enough I eat some.  You'd think I would be far skinnier, but cushings does that to you, makes you nice and round.  I was so excited when I started working at the diner because I get 1 free meal per shift.  There has been days that has been my only meal, but man was it a good one.  Then I got the second job and have finally been able to go grocery shopping twice in the last 2 months and fill a cart.  What an amazing feeling, to do something so mundane, to actually fill a cart, and then come home and fill the fridge/pantry and know we would be eating well again.  For 2 years I barely had $20 a month for food, our food bank you can only get assistance twice a month, so we really struggled.  I don't think though that without that struggle I would take such pleasure in going grocery shopping and actually realizing I could buy what we need, not just the ramen that was on sale kwim.

 

Isn't grocery shopping amazing when you hardly have any money? It feels like you're getting to splurge and "go shopping" the way that others would at Macys or whatever, but with much less guilt because it's FOOD. :)

[lovinmomma]

My parents were savers but did not understand investments other than CDs and passbook savings. I educated myself on other financial matters and have since educated my son. People who have trouble finding two nickels to scrape together are certainly not going to discus the merits of dividend paying stocks to their kids!

 

 

Uhhh.... definitely not. lol We discuss things like "we're down to 1 roll of toilet paper. No one let the last roll drop in the toilet. Shake dry girls!" and then "hey, when we stop at the gas station grab some napkins so that the girls can wipe!" :)

[msjones]

 

 

I get tired of the stereotypes.

 

This is why I started this thread -- to have people discuss actual individual experiences rather than stereotypes or vague 'possible' scenarios.

[Joanne]

What an interesting thread.

 

I guess I'd describe my circumstance as a crisis, but with a long term solution. ;) Technically, being "off" one of 2 jobs, my kids re-qualify for state health insurance and we *possibly* qualify for food stamps again.

 

So, the list:

 

The 2 MAJOR mistakes I made were men. ;) No, seriously. I chose poorly in terms of person and circumstance and I ignored wiser people who tried to tell me as well as my own spidey sense.

 

List of things I did wrong or regret:

 

1. Allowed my husband to handle the money while I was a stay at home mom, losing skills and resume builders. In an abusive/controlling dynamic, I lost all power. Our ample income went into hiding and also funded a long term out of state mistress.
2. I have purchased 3 new cars over the course of my adult years. While 2 of them were modest and practical, I will never buy a *new* car again. I don't believe it to be a wise purchase. OTOH, I won't buy a beater, either.
3. Ate out too much.
4. Too many toys for hte kids when they were little. Too many organizing systems to handle the toys. LOL

 

List of things that happened to me that impacted my life circumstances:

1. My parents did not pay for my college - I did through loans and work off campus (unheard of on my campus)
2. Divorce, severe reduction in child support, custory battle (that I did not initiate).
3. Bankruptcy. I could not handle the costs of living that were part of the divided financial responsibilty. I still had my share of it, but without the child support that was supposed to accompany the debt split.
4. Divorced while having untreated PTSD - unable to see the big picture or advocate for myself.
5. Got behind on house (see #1) but ultimately resumed on time, full payments and was foreclosed on illegally while in a binding modification agreement.
6. DD diagnosed with severe autoimmune, complete with Rx that cost in excess of $2k per month.
7. 2nd husband became both acutely and chronically very ill while uninsured, necessitating about 2 hospital stays a month for nearly 2 years.
8. T-boned by a young man doing in excess of 70 miles per hour on a side street who blew through a red light.

List of things I did right, and are likely the only reason I've not been homeless:

 

1. Generous and kind friends and family.
2. Sold everything including jewelry and a vintage, real Coca Cola collection.
3. Do not have extravagant tastes.
4. Education - 2 undergraduate degrees and one advanced degree. I am not against education loans and I don't consider them fodder for the "bad" list (my undergraduate loans were paid off before I was 30).
5. Goal setting, written, visualized.
6. Being wiling to take any job and work hard at it. This has included running fireworks stands, cleaning office buildings, running poker tournaments in bars. And some less difficult jobs such as educating other people's children in my home,library assistant at my graduate school, teacher.
7. Thinking about it, I have *always* worked multipe jobs and had multiple roles - in a crazy, outlying way.
8. Being willing to work, work, work. At one point, I was a full time Aplus student, worked 30 hours as a teacher and 32 hours as a library assistant.
9. I interview very well, and interviewers tend to like me. I am hopeful this same "thing" will work to grow my private practice.
10. Reasonable, grateful kids. They do not have extravagant tastes.

 

[swellmomma]

Uhhh.... definitely not. lol We discuss things like "we're down to 1 roll of toilet paper. No one let the last roll drop in the toilet. Shake dry girls!" and then "hey, when we stop at the gas station grab some napkins so that the girls can wipe!" :)

 

We had to put some rags aside to use if/when we ran out of toilet paper.  It's not fun.  THe kids laughed at me last week because the grocery store had a buy one get one free deal all week with a limit of 2 BOGO deals per customer.  So I went 3 days in a row, and bought the max, so 4 pkgs a day, 2 of which I got for free each day(I would have gone more but I was out of money after 3 days).  The cupboard now has a wall of packages of toilet paper.  Right now having that stash makes me feel as secure as someone else may feel knowing they have their 3 months emergency fund.  We will not need to use those rags to wipe for a very very long time.

[SKL]

We had to put some rags aside to use if/when we ran out of toilet paper.  It's not fun.  THe kids laughed at me last week because the grocery store had a buy one get one free deal all week with a limit of 2 BOGO deals per customer.  So I went 3 days in a row, and bought the max, so 4 pkgs a day, 2 of which I got for free each day(I would have gone more but I was out of money after 3 days).  The cupboard now has a wall of packages of toilet paper.  Right now having that stash makes me feel as secure as someone else may feel knowing they have their 3 months emergency fund.  We will not need to use those rags to wipe for a very very long time.

 

I always say, there are a few things that it's better to have too much of than too little of.  Toilet paper, deodorant, and tampons.

 

My parents have toilet paper piled up to the ceiling in their back hallway.  Definitely a security thing.  ;)

[lovinmomma]

We had to put some rags aside to use if/when we ran out of toilet paper.  It's not fun.  THe kids laughed at me last week because the grocery store had a buy one get one free deal all week with a limit of 2 BOGO deals per customer.  So I went 3 days in a row, and bought the max, so 4 pkgs a day, 2 of which I got for free each day(I would have gone more but I was out of money after 3 days).  The cupboard now has a wall of packages of toilet paper.  Right now having that stash makes me feel as secure as someone else may feel knowing they have their 3 months emergency fund.  We will not need to use those rags to wipe for a very very long time.

 

We sound like the same momma!!! I do the same thing! We don't get very good TP deals around here, so when I actually find a deal and (more than that) I happen to have  a little bit of cash, too, we always make sure to stock up. I LOVE a toilet paper stash! Makes me as happy as can be. :)

[lovinmomma]

We had to put some rags aside to use if/when we ran out of toilet paper.  It's not fun.  THe kids laughed at me last week because the grocery store had a buy one get one free deal all week with a limit of 2 BOGO deals per customer.  So I went 3 days in a row, and bought the max, so 4 pkgs a day, 2 of which I got for free each day(I would have gone more but I was out of money after 3 days).  The cupboard now has a wall of packages of toilet paper.  Right now having that stash makes me feel as secure as someone else may feel knowing they have their 3 months emergency fund.  We will not need to use those rags to wipe for a very very long time.

Oooh oooh oooh! I thought of another one. Laundry detergent. My arch nemesis. A stockpile of laundry detergent makes me feel safe. lol

[swellmomma]

Oooh oooh oooh! I thought of another one. Laundry detergent. My arch nemesis. A stockpile of laundry detergent makes me feel safe. lol

 

here too.  We may be poor but we will be clean dammit.  they had the same BOGO event last week on purex laundry detergent too (it was purex TP come to think of it).  Before that my folks found a deal in the city and bought me 4 cases of ABC detergent(I am using the last bottle now), and the May before that canadian tire had laundry detergent on for $2 a bottle.  I bought 25 bottles of detergent and paid less on my water bill that month, I went 10 months without needing to buy more.  On my shelves right now I have 12 bottles of the purex from last week and feel good knowing that as much as I hate doing laundry I have no excuse not to, we have enough detergent :) 

 

I am sure those that have more comfortable lives can not imagine the glee it gives to have such basic things on hand like that, because they have never run out.  Now that I am working my goal is to have a stock pile of dish soap, far too often I have needed to use laundry soap or shampoo to do dishes because we ran out.  And nice razor blades, instead of these crappy $ store ones.  I can't wait to buy the razors I used to years ago and have nice smooth legs again instead of risking cuts from crappy blades.  I have to redo my stash of tampons too.  Last year a store was going out of business so I borrowed some money and bought a ton of multipacks of tampons.  I used the last of the ones I use last month and my dd now has all of the lightdays tampons(the purple wrapper tampax so super slender and useless after you have had multiple kids lol) from all those packs.  So time to buy more and start another stash, though it will likely never be as big as that one.  I went 15 months without needing to buy any and only spent like $20 to do that.

 

who cares about investing, and emergency funds and vacations.  toilet paper, detergent, tampons, and razor blades are where the security is. 

[msjones]

I'm so glad people have shared here.

 

 I think it's much more hopeful to discuss real, individual situations than generalities.

 

 There's nothing one can DO about generalities, but one can 'attack' one's individual situation.  Even it's a long, hard road ahead, one can decide which way to go.  

 

I really admire those of you who are plodding down a difficult path with hope and a plan and joy in the gifts of today.  

 

 

 

 

[Barb_]

We are doing well.  I think last year we moved from solidly middle class to, well, if not wealthy then an upper tier of middle class. He lives out of state for work, so we've maintained two households for three years. My husband has the kind of job that is hard to replace unless we move where the job is.  I think our financial success comes mostly from a willingness to relocate when necessary.  He's found himself out of work three times, but has always managed to find something better partially because we're able to be flexible.

[LucyStoner]

Poverty is a systemic issue. The bigger picture or "generalities" are important in achieving social change.

[AMJ]

We are poor. As in VERY poor. I used to be very wealthy (imo). I was a stay at home mom. I left a very promising aspiring legal career to have babies and stay home and raise them. And then there was the divorce. It left me as a woman with 3 young children trying to provide on a very meager income after having been out of the workforce for so long. I had to start at barely above minimum wage. I've been back in school for awhile now, so there is some light at the end of the tunnel. My debt isn't that outrageous at all, but it gets higher and higher every month that I can't afford to even make the $25 minimum payments on a couple of small CCs. I got remarried knowing that I wasn't marrying into wealth, but my husband had a job and was a hard worker. And then he became injured. Several times. What we thought was a shoulder injury is now turning into a 2 year long, in and out of the hospital experience (with a probable degenerative joint issue at the end of that tunnel), sugar coated with an almost $500k medical debt. Loads of fun. Sure I have made mistakes, but I am typically a very frugal person. I coupon. I live meagerly. I still can't pay my bills. Rent. Gas. Whatever. We found ourselves last month having to use the stove to heat the house. Sigh. This is a season. This is a season. This is a season.

 

You know, it's funny. When I as wealthy I just coudn't wrap my head around this kind of poor. Well, any kind of poor for that matter. I was completely out of touch. It was so strange for me to think about not even being able to afford McDs, or dollar bin items, gas for your car, etc. All issues that I had friends who struggled with. Living life's struggles gives you so much more compassion for others. Now, I think of all that money I would spend so effortlessly on the latest and greatest curriculum, clothes for my kids, gobs of presents, birthday parties, etc and I just laugh.

 

You know what though? Our family is close. We live closely together. We work together to keep out tiny home clean. We dream together. I'm happy.

It took 11 1/2 years for me to complete my bachelor's degree due to lengthy interruptions for me to try to earn and save money. When I finally got back to school I had to max out my student loans and work 30 hours a week while carrying a full credit load (if I dropped to part-time school I would have lost the loans). Money was severely tight.

 

One morning the radio station asked a question I actually could answer. I called in and was lucky enough to be the first caller with the correct answer. The prize: lunch at Subway. I showed up so quickly at the radio station to claim my prize they put me on the air. On air they asked me about my plans, and I told them I planned on lunch at Subway. They also told me they were going to award me a pack of Ding Dongs for being so prompt in showing up and being a good sport. One of the two on-air personalities asked me if he could eat the Ding Dongs instead, but I replied, "Heck, no! That's breakfast!" We all had a good laugh about how students will eat anything any time if day.

 

But I was serious. That was my breakfast that day.

[Guest]

Just calling it "family cloth" instead of "rags" works for me, but I'm absurdly obsessive about keeping a roll on hand "for company" and I don't fool myself about being some self-sacrificing martyr who cares THAT much about "company"'s comfort and delicate sensibilities--it's so that "company" doesn't find out, lol!

[Camelfeet]

Uhhh.... definitely not. lol We discuss things like "we're down to 1 roll of toilet paper. No one let the last roll drop in the toilet. Shake dry girls!" and then "hey, when we stop at the gas station grab some napkins so that the girls can wipe!" :)

 

Look at this:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bidet_shower.  Can help reduce toilet paper use.  You can get kits for like 15$. 

[Renee in NC]

Fascinating. My take-away from that book was virtually the exact opposite.  :laugh:  To me, it was an eye-opener on how people use or fail to use opportunities to their benefit.  Wasn't it in that book that he speaks about the man with the highest IQ in America (or something to that effect)? He was this brilliant mind, full of promise, but quit college when some moderate obstacles cropped up. (Car broke down, mother didn't apply for scholarship renewal, etc.) That was such an important story to me. Also the "10,000 hour rule." Illustrates how fixity of purpose pays off. 

 

It is both, really.  I took away the 10,000 hours concept from it, too.  I use Michael Jordan as an example for my dc all the time.  He had the raw talent, but it had to be developed.  Bill Gates worked hard at programming BUT he was only able to do that due to the circumstances around his life.  A child may have raw musical talent that could make him or her exceptional at an instrument with hard work, but that also requires circumstances that allow him or her to take lessons (so a poor child is less likely to be able to do this than a wealthier child.)

 

Think about this - that man has a choice.  He could use his high IQ, work hard, and do pretty much whatever job/career he wanted. Someone with a low average IQ cannot.  No matter how hard that person might work, there are jobs/careers/areas of study that will be beyond his or her ability.  (I am sure I will get jumped on for that, but I think most people can see that that all around them.)

 

The quote I tell my dc all the time:  "Hard work beats talent when talent hardly works."  I have 2 dc that illustrate this - one has LDs, the other does not.  The dc that does works HARD, and his grades are significantly better than the other dc's.  So I don't think we are victims of fate, but I do believe chance, opportunity, and support from those around us are necessary as well.

[SKL]

Poverty is a systemic issue. The bigger picture or "generalities" are important in achieving social change.

 

But since poverty is relative, those general statistics are not going to get prettier even if we achieve social change.  I mean, we've achieved a lot of social change that isn't reflected in the statistics as it is.

[Lizzie in Ma]

Dh and I both put ourselves through college, me by working 5 years before I even went and then working 3 jobs throughout, dh with the GI bill.  We had a modest amount of student loans we paid off within 3 years of graduating. 

Neither of us work in our chosen fields at this point, dh is a handyman now.

Thank God for insurance, eldest has been very ill with Lyme for years now, if we had to pay those bills we would have lost everything.  Some of her meds are not covered and cost around $300/month and that isn't always easy.

We made some stupid financial decisions when we bought our house, used credit cards and home equity loans.  Stupid.

The 5 years it took, the payment was as much as the mortgage and things were pretty awful but we did it at last.  Now we only have the mortgage, the small truck loan and a small balance on Home Depot for work purposes.

 

We are doing ok at last. 

We still live on one paycheck, have since we began homeschooling but don't regret a thing.

We have a roof over our head, clothes on our backs and food in the pantry.  That's rich to me.

We have two working vehicles, one that cost us $1 and one we just bought.  Dh needed a new work truck so he found a 2003 Chevy for $5000 which we did finance but we can afford it now.

We have a huge amount of wood, cut, split and stacked for the winter, all dead fall or removed after the storms last year.  Mom always said it's as good as money in the bank.

Christmas will be lean, but that is because dh is going on a second short term missions trip to Sierra Leone and we need to have enough cash to live on for two weeks while there is no income.

I feel rich in all the ways that matter to ME.

 

Most of the time anyway, I steer clear of things that foster discontent like malls and magazines.  I would love to take us all clothes shopping.  My sweater is older than my eldest and my boots that I've had since high school are very tired.

I would kill for a huge TV because we love movies and games.  I would dearly love to replace our 12 year old carpet, at least in the main living area.  And sometimes I get tired of "making do" with older things, I am always fixing and piecing together parts to keep the kids laptops going, and they do need them for school.  I would adore a big yarn stash so I could knit to my hearts content.  And it would be fun to have foods we don't need but enjoy in the house sometimes, like chips, frozen foods so I could skip actually cooking once in awhile.  And I miss my old, beloved Canon Rebel that died.  I was blessed by a boardie with a point and shoot that works just fine, but I do miss my long lens and the rich, gorgeous colors the Canon gave me.  But I don't dwell on these things.  They would just be nice.

[Excelsior! Academy]

Totally get the toilet paper thing!!  That is one of the reasons I want to keep a well stocked pantry.  I feel like Scarlett O'Hara in Gone With the Wind, "As God as my witness, I will never run out of toilet paper again!"  That is a huge point of security to me.  I used cloth diapers off and on with my dc, but toilet paper is where I draw the line.  Every day I thank God that I did not live in the time period where the Sears catalog in the outhouse felt like a luxury.

[Crimson Wife]

One thing I see in my neck of the woods that I think really hurts middle-class folks is a general anti-military sentiment. People b*tch and moan about the cost of college today but when I suggest trying for an ROTC scholarship like DH had or, if that doesn't pan out, enlisting for the GI Bill benefits and they are horrified at the thought. Yes, there are risks, but most people wind up serving their tour without incident and with most or all of their college tuition paid for by Uncle Sam.

 

I don't think DH would've gotten into an Ivy League MBA program had he not served as an Army officer. Not too many civilian organizations are willing to put 22 y.o. new college grads in charge of a dozen men and millions of dollars' worth of equipment like the military is. There's a reason why 10% of his class at business school were veterans.

[mommymilkies]

A mix.  Compared to my family, I am beyond wealthy, but compared to middle class, we are certainly not.  Dh teaches.  I left a good job in the medical field to go back to school and SAH.  The school thing has been pushed back for 8 years and my medical qualifications are now void.  Dh teaches, so overtime doesn't happen easily and doesn't pay well at ALL, and he can't work outside of his job per his contract.  COL has gone up, the house is falling apart, the van died so we needed a new one, medical bills (dh is diabetic), emergency after emergency.  I've been thinking for years maybe it's just that I spend too much.  We have more than I ever had growing up.  So I went through every penny I spent last year and it wasn't me after all.  :lol:   Well, not entirely.  I spend very little on clothes, toys, things like that.  We buy a lot of books, but I do sell books before I let myself buy new ones, usually.  We don't go on fancy vacations-usually just drive and stay at a family member's house within a few hours of here.  We don't have fancy furniture.  We have some good electronics-many were gifts, refurbished, or are pretty old (my iMac was bought during a boom time for us 5 years ago or so). I do have an iPhone, but it ended up being cheaper than a landline here-they charge per minute and per month like a cell phone-and I got a good monthly deal on a special that is cheaper than the Tracfone plans I've seen. On the other hand, my ex stopped paying child support, so we are very much paycheck to paycheck and I spend the week before pay just praying we don't go in the red for something stupid I missed. Christmas is only happening this year because I qualified for a credit card.  Dh gets his really crappy overload paycheck in December, so I can pay it off then, but we are considerably in debt between student loans, van, house, and a credit card. 

[Guest]

Thank you for this thread, OP.

 

Between what people have shared here and at Park Day and what I have googled, I've realized that this has been an exceptionally hard year for  homeowners and professionals who might not be receptive to asking for help from Toys for Tots or similar organizations. Normallly I let my kids decide which charity gets our $20 check at Christmas, but this year I think our money might be better spent hitting the thrift stores and offering the toys we find (and clean, repair, repaint, etc.) on freecycle.

 

What do other downwardly mobile folks think?

 

 

[Mrs Mungo]

One thing I see in my neck of the woods that I think really hurts middle-class folks is a general anti-military sentiment. People b*tch and moan about the cost of college today but when I suggest trying for an ROTC scholarship like DH had or, if that doesn't pan out, enlisting for the GI Bill benefits and they are horrified at the thought. Yes, there are risks, but most people wind up serving their tour without incident and with most or all of their college tuition paid for by Uncle Sam.

 

I don't think DH would've gotten into an Ivy League MBA program had he not served as an Army officer. Not too many civilian organizations are willing to put 22 y.o. new college grads in charge of a dozen men and millions of dollars' worth of equipment like the military is. There's a reason why 10% of his class at business school were veterans.

Only a small percentage of people in the US serve in the military. People not affiliated with the military have little understanding of how it really works. BUT, I think the biggest thing is that people don't want to send their kids to war. War absolutely takes a toll on the psyche, and those who join need to be ready to face that. We were in Germany when 9/11 happened. You wouldn't believe the calls I had from the parents of soldiers. You would be astounded at some of the antics pulled by soldiers, even junior officers to leave the service and avoid serving in a wartime army. That's why I don't suggest it for everyone. People *absolutely* should think about the possible consequences and NOT look at it as a jobs program.

[Guest]

I'm a proud Army mom, but I'd far rather eat top ramen and live in a cardboard box than encourage my second son to enlist without fully understanding the consequences. I worry less about losing ds1 to the Grim Reaper than I do about losing him to PTSD. Your DH deserves all the advantages in life that he earned, Crimson Wife, and I admire you both.