Does anyone else think Classical Conversations is neither?

[G5052]

Let me see if I have this straight--CC is calling Alg I and Physical Sci the standard for 9th graders? Um, not if they want to get into a selective college. Those are 8th grade classes.

 

Yes, and most selective colleges want homeschooled students to take a foreign language SAT-II or AP at the end of 11th grade to verify the credits if they weren't taken via dual enrollment. CC's Latin isn't lined up with that.

 

Most colleges don't have such expectations, but even an "upper middle" we looked at said that a foreign language SAT-II or AP in 11th would make a difference in terms of the honors program, scholarships, etc.

[Susan in MO]

My daughter would point out that this is an example of a hasty generalization fallacy. Heart gave one example as to why the small sample of homeschooled kids in CC might not have the 'early bloomer' types. I do think there are probably some early bloomers in CC - but those kids are being weeded out by the age requirements even if they aren't already self-selecting to not be included.

 

 

The age requirement is Brand New for this fall. There will be no exceptions. (Ditto what dauphin said.) 

 

That doesn't mean CC isn't a great thing for some families. I'm sure it is. It just isn't the cat's meow for everyone. And I still haven't seen a good argument for how CC is "classical.' 

Yeah, I knew it was too small of a sampling (thus the grain of salt comment), but alas I can only comment from my experience, and the information I have studied/trained on.  This is what I love about dialogue and debate within community.  It enables us to learn new information and encounter new ideas.   This is the very reason why, while I don't agree with everything CC does, I can support their methods.  They offer an opportunity for a dialectic community, which is a rare offering.  Sadly, most classes (even college classes) are only designed to impart information (input), and skip the next stage (processing) where real learning and thinking take place.   

 

As for the age requirement, I am sad that that the company has chosen to take on such a rigid all or nothing requirement.  As someone indicated earlier, the reason Leigh chose to call the levels Challenge was so that the parent could place a child where they would thrive best.  It looks like they have moved away from their initial vision.

[Susan in MO]

A few years ago I did go to a presentation by a neurologist studying brain development in gifted kids. Her data showed very real differences. There are, of course, different definitions and degrees of giftedness. 

 

I would be interested in learning more about the differences.  If you remember the name of the neurologist, could you PM me?  

[8filltheheart]

I would be interested in learning more about the differences.  If you remember the name of the neurologist, could you PM me?  

 

I didn't address this in your OP, but what you describe does not match what I know about child development.   Child development milestones are normally described in terms of age ranges, not fixed ages.   The ranges are typically normed on a bell curve, so outliers exist on both ends of the typical "avg."  

[WinsomeCreek]

Susan,

It was a few years back. The presenter may have been a psychologist or neuropsychologist or neurologist. I can look further, but this link has the gist of some of what she talked about- pages 3,4. http://www.corwin.com/upm-data/32712_Sousa_(Gifted_Brain)__Ch1.pdf I just did a quick search. What i recall as take home: MRIs showed developmental differences. The 'golden ages' of childhood for nt kids were more often tumultous years among gt kids, those same gt kids then made for easier teens. I recall being promised that we would have awesome teens. :) I also recall that a high iq due to high working memory was not placed in the same grouping as other profiles of gifted, but seen as closer to nt.

There is a continuum with outliers and there are differently developing brains. I am grateful that there are so many education options for the vast variety of learners out there. Age banding is truly disastrous for some kids who can be from either category. I have met a 7 year old with deeper abstract thinking skills than many 15 year olds (not my kid I'm talking about). Brick and mortar schools or cc set restrictions on age. It will more likely result in the outliers and deviants (in a good way here) looking elsewhere. Like I said, cc is huge around here. It just hasn't impressed me or looked like a good fit for my family.

Ok, did my best to remember what I could. I'm old and sleep deprived so don't rely on my recollections, but if you have sway with cc and think they might be missing out by having age restrictions I urge you to look into this further.

[8filltheheart]

They offer an opportunity for a dialectic community, which is a rare offering. Sadly, most classes (even college classes) are only designed to impart information (input), and skip the next stage (processing) where real learning and thinking take place]

Those are blanket statements and stereotypes.

 

Parents are capable of independently providing their children educations which fully encompass higher order thinking skills. Learning how to incorporate methodologies like those promoted by Bloom's Taxonomy or via Socratic dialogue does not require a specialized tutor or program. It can be achieved in a family setting. Other providers also offer Socratic discussions. Curriculum choices can also play a role in whether or not material is presented plug and chug or promotes deep conceptual understanding and whether or not simple answers are all that are required or whether proof-based answers are.

 

While there may be some colleges with some classes that focus on regurgitation, most?? I suspect we all hope that engineers building local bridges or dealing with deadly processes in chemical plants, etc, etc took classes beyond simply regurgitating input and are masters at applying processes.

 

Susan,

It was a few years back. The presenter may have been a psychologist or neuropsychologist or neurologist. I can look further, but this link has the gist of some of what she talked about- pages 3,4. http://www.corwin.com/upm-data/32712_Sousa_(Gifted_Brain)__Ch1.pdf I just did a quick search. What i recall as take home: MRIs showed developmental differences. The 'golden ages' of childhood for nt kids were more often tumultous years among gt kids, those same gt kids then made for easier teens. I recall being promised that we would have awesome teens. :) I also recall that a high iq due to high working memory was not placed in the same grouping as other profiles of gifted, but seen as closer to nt.

There is a continuum with outliers and there are differently developing brains. I am grateful that there are so many education options for the vast variety of learners out there. Age banding is truly disastrous for some kids who can be from either category. I have met a 7 year old with deeper abstract thinking skills than many 15 year olds (not my kid I'm talking about). Brick and mortar schools or cc set restrictions on age. It will more likely result in the outliers and deviants (in a good way here) looking elsewhere. Like I said, cc is huge around here. It just hasn't impressed me or looked like a good fit for my family.

Ok, did my best to remember what I could. I'm old and sleep deprived so don't rely on my recollections, but if you have sway with cc and think they might be missing out by having age restrictions I urge you to look into this further.

I agree.

 

Child development crosses multiple fields of science. The fact you stated you weren't sure if it was a psychologist or a neurologist is actually a very important pt. There are multiple facets to child development and the issues are not confined single field. There are neurological developments, but there are also developmental milestones that are viewed more in terms of psychological developments (with multiple theories). Then you have subsets of development of multiple skills: motor, social, language, cognitive. There can be discrepancies in development across the multiple skills in a single child. It doesn't all sum up in a single absolute defined pattern for an answer.

[Tidbits of Learning]

This whole thread just makes me go Wow!  I mean we are quoting psychiatrists and neurologists and such on child development to ascertain whether a homeschool co-op (yes that is what CC is essentially) is justified in requiring a minimum age to do a certain level of their program.  I did go and I did sit in and everyone that I talked to from CC said it is so much and so heavy and all that, but personally comparing it to what we are doing now which is definitely Socratic thinking and reasoning skills not plug and chug...but Challenge 1 is less than what we are doing at home for 8th grade and 7th grade for both of my girls.

The more I have thought about it...the more I feel like it is school lite and you do have to get into the "school" mindset.  While I wouldn't say it is drink the koolaid mentality, I have been a public school parent.  There is a certain mindset that you have that if things are semi-working well and your child is thriving not to rock the boat or cause waves in that type of setting.  You want to become friends with the administration b/c they are caring for your child.  You don't want to be seen as an antagonist to that environment.  I do think joining CC does require at least at the Challenge level to shift your mindset and maybe your goals and schedule for your child for them to succeed in the CC environment.  That isn't a bad thing if that is what you want.  

I have decided not to go back to the other cc campus and visit.  I have done the school mindset and followed a "school" path before with my children.  That was elementary school and I did feel caged in and my kids were caged in b/c they were advanced in different subjects and they were stagnant at school.  The age requirements and the uncertainty of being able to go up in levels in math and science for cc feels like it would be putting them back into that one size fits all box that we escaped from when we started home schooling.  

I also don't believe that you are incapable of thinking at a certain level until you hit 14.  That is insane.  We are not robots.  We do not hit maximum achievement with dialect exactly on our 14th birthdays.  The more I think about that mentality the more it reminds me of a public school standard and that is not what I am trying to achieve with my children.  At 14, they can take college courses on a real college campus and I am going to invest my money with that instead of a tutor program that isn't really a tutor but more a of a learning guide that may or may not understand the materials...I can pay tuition for a Professor with a degree to teach my child exactly where they are at right now instead of holding them back and repeating a year of math and science b/c an organization feels you must be 14 to have in-depth Socratic discussions with your peers. 

 

[Susan in MO]

Parents are capable of independently providing their children educations which fully encompass higher order thinking skills. Learning how to incorporate methodologies like those promoted by Bloom's Taxonomy or via Socratic dialogue does not require a specialized tutor or program. It can be achieved in a family setting. Other providers also offer Socratic discussions. Curriculum choices can also play a role in whether or not material is presented plug and chug or promotes deep conceptual understanding and whether or not simple answers are all that are required or whether proof-based answers are.

 

I have never said, and never will say that that parents were not capable of providing a wonderful higher level thinking skills education.  In fact, homeschooling parents are the tutors within the CC program, and many other worthy programs as well. 

 

 

We are not enrolled in CC.  We are homeschooling at home and doing well.  If I didn't believe we could do well, we would be doing something different.  The fact that our family has chosen not to attend CC doesn't negate my belief that CC offers something unique and of value.  I support other organizations as well that try to implement a classical skill set.  There is, after all, more than one way to skin a cat. (I really don’t like that idiom, but I am too disconcerted to say it more elegantly.)

 

 

Because I’m feeling attacked, I will add that I also support organizations that don’t offer a classical skill set.  For instance, we have attended a “just for fun†coop off and on since my oldest was 8 (he is 23 now.)  It is a wonderful organization that I whole-heartedly support.  This coop offers something totally different than CC, but still of value and still worthy of support. 

 

 

Furthermore, I support the WTM method.  Here is the kicker, I believe TWTM method to be different and superior to what most classes offer.  (Another blanket statement  :001_smile: )

 

 

 I meant to be mocking the post, not taken literally. 

 

One thing I always teach my children and students is that discussions need to happen in a safe place to be productive.  If a person feels belittled or attacked (or in this case mocked), then they will fear taking part in the discussion (as I have every since reading this statement.)  It really only takes one statement to create this environment of fear and shut down discourse.   

 

My only hope in this discussion was to show some reasons behind the organization and methods of CC.  Are there shortcomings?  Sure, but that doesn't mean they don't offer a good classical program.   They were a blessing to me, and I am grateful for the time I spent learning and exploring their methods.  I have witnessed first hand how children and adults have blossomed under their guidance.  In fact, we are now on our own due, in part, to the confidence and knowledge gained through our experience with CC.  As I have stated before CC isn't for everyone, and I don't agree with everything.  In fact, for one, I am saddened that by the stark age requirements.  I didn't realize this had changed.  They have clearly moved away from their original vision of Challenge levels.   I don't know if it will make any difference, but I do intend to do as WinsomCreek urged, and speak to CC about this requirement.  Just as I hope others will do.  

 

Enjoy your day.  I will be away for a while as we are celebrating Easter with family this weekend.   

[Tidbits of Learning]

And this thread has helped me to understand CC more without the pressure.   My friends that do CC love it and I don't want to belittle what is working for them, but feel the answers to my questions are biased a little by their love of the program.  So a thread like this with all the discussion of how CC worked was really great for me.

[dauphin]

One thing I always teach my children and students is that discussions need to happen in a safe place to be productive.  If a person feels belittled or attacked (or in this case mocked), then they will fear taking part in the discussion (as I have every since reading this statement.)  It really only takes one statement to create this environment of fear and shut down discourse.

 

 

Without going back and rereading the quote since I'm on my way out the door, I would infer that what was being mocked was the rigid ages/stages application of child development theory that many of us consider indefensible, particularly those of us who entered the realm of homeschooling due to a need for flexibility. Even the public schools are less rigid - because from what I understand, SOME parents in SOME states have had SOME limited success in achieving accelerated education for their children. All of this despite a body of research (not interpretation of theories or workshop/conference presentations) demonstrating acceleration as an appropriate and needed intervention for gifted children http://www.accelerationinstitute.org/Nation_Deceived/Get_Report.aspx.

 

 

]As I have stated before CC isn't for everyone, and I don't agree with everything.  In fact, for one, I am saddened that by the stark age requirements.  I didn't realize this had changed.  They have clearly moved away from their original vision of Challenge levels.   I don't know if it will make any difference, but I do intend to do as WinsomCreek urged, and speak to CC about this requirement.  Just as I hope others will do.  [/size]

 

 

I agree that everyone with an interest in the matter should make their concerns known. I personally pushed through several levels of management in my request for consideration for an exception until it became clear that the rule was being rigidly enforced and that there was no benefit to trying further. Along the way I was informed that many others had come before me that had pushed all the way to corporate and that NONE had been successful. I was given many different "reasons," some conflicting, for the change in the enforcement of the policy. In the end, it comes down to convenience - for the directors/managers to not have to deal with the inherent problem of letting some students do it but having to tell others (well, more importantly, their parents) they're not ready and (having a defensible reason for) why. 

 

Based on that experience and others' report here, I suspect that there will be no changes in policy due to people voicing their concerns, but if no one does, then there is even less likelihood of a change. Most institutions who must turn to business "managers" (as CC most likely had to do due to their astronomical growth rate) instead of those who had shared a vision will find that their changes in direction will result in changes in their client base, and only if/when that impacts their numbers/enrollment do they see a need to review their policy decisions. It remains to be seen if this policy will result in enough of a "falling away" in numbers, but I do think that it will prune away the majority of gifted individuals, more so the farther out on the spectrum they are. 

 

 

[Omma]

I do know someone who is dropping CC because their dc misses the cutoff by 4 days of being 14 for Challenge I by Sept. 30th, and I feel sad about that as they need the science and math classes to go into nursing, and they would have to do Challenge B as a 9th grader.  What I hope CC will do is allow for more students to jump a level just for math and/or science during the day (ie do Challenge B as a 9th grader, for example, but just join the Challenge I class for Algebra 1 and Physical Science... or even the Biology class in Challenge II, perhaps...).  If CC could offer this kind of flexibility, then I think it would become more attractive to a lot more individuals.

[musicianmom]

Can someone link to the documentation about these new age requirements? I have a friend in CC who is grade-skipping her gifted October-birthday child. I would hate for her to run into a nasty surprise when they get to Challenge level.

[RootAnn]

Can someone link to the documentation about these new age requirements? 

 

If you page down in this link (tuition & registration form) to page 2, you will see the age requirement listed.

 

Classical Conversations® CHALLENGE Program

CHALLENGE A & B

Students must be at least twelve years old by September 30, 2014 to enroll in Challenge A.

 

CHALLENGE I, II, III & IV

Students must be at least fourteen years old by September 30, 2014 to enroll in Challenge I.

 

[G5052]

It's in the registration form.  Look at the second page: HERE

 

The child must be at least twelve on or before September 30, 2014 for Challenge A.

 

Or at least fourteen on or before September 30, 2014 for Challenge I.  

 

No exceptions are implied.

[dauphin]

The requirements are not new according to the leadership I spoke with. They are just being absolutely-no-exceptions rigidly enforced as of this year. If I have understood correctly what others have said, it was a nasty surprise for some people, who heard this for the first time in January(ish) when it appears the decision may have been made, officially, and had students with fall birthdays/current sixth graders by all definitions and who had planned to move up with their friends all along. That wasn't us - not speaking of my situation (we were new this year).

[freesia]

It's in the registration form.  Look at the second page: HERE

 

The child must be at least twelve on or before September 30, 2014 for Challenge A.

 

Or at least fourteen on or before September 30, 2014 for Challenge I.  

 

No exceptions are implied.

That's also not going to go over well in States where the school cut-off is later. My oldest is not 14 until November, but will be in ninth grade.FWIW, he has had Algebra and Physical Science.

[musicianmom]

Thanks. Now I have to decide whether to mention it. Ugh.

[8filltheheart]

I have never said, and never will say that that parents were not capable of providing a wonderful higher level thinking skills education. In fact, homeschooling parents are the tutors within the CC program, and many other worthy programs as well.

I posted my response directly to your statement that the dialectic offerings of CC are a rare opportunity. It simply isn't a valid pt. I mentioned not only are parents capable of doing it at home, but there are other providers providing Socratic discussions, etc as well. (Great Books Academy is a single example) If you are going to make statements that are over-reaching, then expect people to respond correcting the position. If you had stated that CC offers dialectic discourse which is something many parents enjoy and want--that is a valid position, but your claim that it is rare and that even colleges don't offer "processing" opportunities in their classes, only direct input, is not.

Because I’m feeling attacked,

I am sorry you feel attacked. It is not my intent. But you have made statements that deserve alternative perspectives b/c they are simply your opinion.

One thing I always teach my children and students is that discussions need to happen in a safe place to be productive. If a person feels belittled or attacked (or in this case mocked), then they will fear taking part in the discussion (as I have every since reading this statement.) It really only takes one statement to create this environment of fear and shut down discourse.

But the poster I was responding to was not engaged in discussion. Her only posts are directly connected comments on CC. If she had been engaging in the entire discussion, her post would have been worded differently. There are literally pages of comments about how CC does not provide teachers, only tutors, that they do not provide grading assignments/assessments, etc and yet the person logged in to brag about CC "graduates." That would suggest that they are alumni of an institution or school. A school without teachers and without grading. The position is completely ironic especially in the context of this forum which tends to attract very academic-oriented families. Plenty of posters on this forum outsource classes to all sorts of providers and yet they don't say their children are graduates of that "provider" unless their students are enrolled in an actual accredited school like Seton or K12, etc. They discuss how the provider benefited their child's education. So, yes, I am mocking the position that students are both not provided teachers or grades and yet claimed as graduates. ;) FWIW, if the person was an actual participant of this forum, I would not have been so blunt but would have asked in terms of a question instead. But, I doubted the sincerity of the individual wanting to actually engage in a real conversation since they logged in and posted that comment and have never joined in any conversations.....simply 2 posts about CC.

[G5052]

I do know someone who is dropping CC because their dc misses the cutoff by 4 days of being 14 for Challenge I by Sept. 30th, and I feel sad about that as they need the science and math classes to go into nursing, and they would have to do Challenge B as a 9th grader.  What I hope CC will do is allow for more students to jump a level just for math and/or science during the day (ie do Challenge B as a 9th grader, for example, but just join the Challenge I class for Algebra 1 and Physical Science... or even the Biology class in Challenge II, perhaps...).  If CC could offer this kind of flexibility, then I think it would become more attractive to a lot more individuals.

 

When we were introduced to CC nine years ago, you could register for just some of the Challenge seminars and pay per seminar, and I think you could mix-and-match any subject at any level, if I remember correctly.  Then they said you had to pay for six, but could float up or down for math and Latin.  Now you have to take all six with the class, the justification being integration and class unity.

 

So they have gotten stricter.  You can ask, but I wouldn't expect a roll-back to something they already moved away from.  And it continues to expand and grow as it is.  In the end, if it doesn't fit a particular family's expectations and goals, they probably should consider other options.  Thankfully there is a lot out there.

[8filltheheart]

Let me see if I have this straight--CC is calling Alg I and Physical Sci the standard for 9th graders? Um, not if they want to get into a selective college. Those are 8th grade classes.

 

If you look at this site: https://www.classicalconversations.com/images/pdffiles/challenge_difference_2.pdf they also count completing Saxon's alg 1-adv math (pre-cal) as 5 math credits.   I wondered about this since I don't use Saxon and according to Art Reed's websitehttp://homeschoolwithsaxon.com/newsletterpage-2012.php , the following is Saxon credit (he advises homeschoolers to break the Advanced Math book into the 2 underlined titles):

 

Algebra 1 - Algebra 2 - Geometry with Advanced Algebra - Trigonometry and Pre-Calculus - Calculus. NOTE: The Saxon Advanced Mathematics textbook was used over a two year period allowing the above underlined two full math credits after completing Saxon Algebra 2. (TOTAL High School Math Credits: 5)

 

Algebra 1 - Algebra 2 - Geometry with Advanced Algebra - Trigonometry and Pre-Calculus. (TOTAL High School Math Credits: 4)

 

I wonder how many B&M schools actually consider those 3 texts as the equivalent of 5 high school math credits? 

 

I only stumbled into this thread by accident, but I am now really glad I did.   I know a lot of people locally that have been feeling pressured to enroll in CC and I have simply been talking to them in terms of support for how to homeschool w/o joining CC.  But now that I have been reading more about CC, I feel equipped to approach the conversation with critical information that is missing from the bigger picture. 

[G5052]

I only stumbled into this thread by accident, but I am now really glad I did.   I know a lot of people locally that have been feeling pressured to enroll in CC and I have simply been talking to them in terms of support for how to homeschool w/o joining CC.  But now that I have been reading more about CC, I feel equipped to approach the conversation with critical information that is missing from the bigger picture. 

 

Yes, warn them about the guilt trips.  Even if they haven't been classically educated and even if they're quaking in their boots (who isn't with high schoolers?), homeschooling through high school is indeed possible.  CC is an option, not the only path towards success.

[k3bzr18]

So, let's say that one community has a class of 8 at each level (which I know isn't accurate, but hopefully it averages out). I'll even make all the essentials and foundations kids little siblings. That would be $1760 for one community. And let's say that each state has 10 communities, which is grossly undershooting, but whatever. That's $880,000 in registration fees alone.

 

Now, let's say each of these communities is comprised of 12 families, and each of these families chooses to purchase their materials through the store. I will even round way down from what I estimated I would have to spend, so let's say $200 a family. That's approx $1,200,000 in sales. Not counting online subscriptions, apps, ect.

 

In this VERY conservative estimate, CC corporate is pulling in at least 2 million a year. So, let's not pretend that making money isn't part of the CC model.

CC sent every host church a $500 donation last year. This is getting very personal. What about all the curriculum companies? We should allow people profits, if people don't buy, they don't remain. Free enterprise.

[EowynR]

CC sent every host church a $500 donation last year. This is getting very personal. What about all the curriculum companies? We should allow people profits, if people don't buy, they don't remain. Free enterprise.

 

Practicums, I think, cost far more than that. I'm fairly certain from my conversations with local area managers that host churches aren't just given a gift, they are offered rent by Classical Conversations in the thousands of dollars.

 

(There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.)

 

My children have always enjoyed the three-day practicum classes -- they have been enriching during the summer.

 

We have given up on the Challenge program, however. It's been a disjointed mess for us.

[dauphin]

Practicums, I think, cost far more than that. 

 

We have given up on the Challenge program, however. It's been a disjointed mess for us.

 

I'm sure they do, it can be a big 3-day event, offered for free. Of course, they asked us at our practicum event for attendees to consider a  "love offering" paid directly to the host.

 

Would you say more about the Challenge program here? In another thread (maybe this one too?) it's been stated repeatedly that the experience is largely dependent upon the tutor (experience, general skill set/competency, style of teaching). Would you agree or were there other issues? 

[Literary Mom]

The Challenge thread I started (sort of a spin-off of this one) is here:

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/510149-wtm-way-andor-cc-challenge-a-for-7th-grade/

[Literary Mom]

The OP here, just updating this to say that I decided not to do any co-ops (for the first time in our 5 yr history of homeschooling) and to launch Gameschool, like I had talked about doing in this thread. We had our first beta test yesterday and it went wonderfully!  Thanks for all the encouragement :)

[classicalfam]

For those of you who have been CC Directors, did you have any reservations contracting your tutors as independent contractors rather than employees?

 

[G5052]

For those of you who have been CC Directors, did you have any reservations contracting your tutors as independent contractors rather than employees?

 

Keep in mind that you have to do it CC's way if you become a contracted director.  You have to use the CC contract with your tutors, and that contract specifies that they are independent contractors.

 

If you haven't been there, this website has information about this issue: http://homeschoolcpa.com/. Her e-book called "Paying Workers in a Homeschool Organization" is eye-opening. She is a "when in doubt" type of CPA, telling homeschool groups to err on the side of caution.  I also confirmed this with my local CPA, who looked at my CC contract and warned me that technically the IRS could challenge both my Director and CC.  Because CC requires training, a set curriculum, set location/hours, and the director usually reimburses some expenses, my CPA said it was iffy in her mind.

 

It could be that CC got a formal IRS ruling on this and that they are fine.  An organization or individual can file a SS-8 and get an answer on this sort of thing, although it can take awhile to get a ruling.

[Dmmetler]

Having worked for an organization that paid me as a contractor vs being an employee, I'd have real reservations on taking that job. It adds a lot of hassle at tax time.

 

 

[classicalfam]

Having worked for an organization that paid me as a contractor vs being an employee, I'd have real reservations on taking that job. It adds a lot of hassle at tax time.

 

Do you mean taking the job as an independent contractor or as an employee?

[classicalfam]

Keep in mind that you have to do it CC's way if you become a contracted director.  You have to use the CC contract with your tutors, and that contract specifies that they are independent contractors.

 

If you haven't been there, this website has information about this issue: http://homeschoolcpa.com/. Her e-book called "Paying Workers in a Homeschool Organization" is eye-opening. She is a "when in doubt" type of CPA, telling homeschool groups to err on the side of caution.  I also confirmed this with my local CPA, who looked at my CC contract and warned me that technically the IRS could challenge both my Director and CC.  Because CC requires training, a set curriculum, set location/hours, and the director usually reimburses some expenses, my CPA said it was iffy in her mind.

 

It could be that CC got a formal IRS ruling on this and that they are fine.  An organization or individual can file a SS-8 and get an answer on this sort of thing, although it can take awhile to get a ruling.

 

I am pretty sure they haven't had an IRS ruling on it.  

[classicalfam]

Being that CC is a for-profit, do you think it is appropriate for them to use volunteers or minimally paid individuals to run the practicums . . . that are required for tutors and directors?  

[classicalfam]

Keep in mind that you have to do it CC's way if you become a contracted director.  You have to use the CC contract with your tutors, and that contract specifies that they are independent contractors.

 

 

My understanding is that when you are an independent contractor, the benefit is that you are your own boss and there shouldn't be a "CC way" unless the CC way is limited to results and not hows.  What freedoms does CC allow so that the independent contractor can gain the benefits of being independent?

 

The way that it is set up now, it seems that the ICs do not have freedom, get no benefits or protections from being an employee and retain all of the liability of self-employed individuals.  What is the upside for the independent contractor?  There seems to be a lot of upsides for CC.

 

Can someone who is a Director tell me what I am not getting?  

[dauphin]

Based on this being an old thread, I would suggest starting a new one with a topic/title more pertinent to your question. This is an interesting line of discussion because of the number of parents who have been or will be approached for this (as a way to help pay for their costs), but they won't necessarily visit this thread because of its title or longevity. 

[G5052]

My understanding is that when you are an independent contractor, the benefit is that you are your own boss and there shouldn't be a "CC way" unless the CC way is limited to results and not hows.  What freedoms does CC allow so that the independent contractor can gain the benefits of being independent?

 

The way that it is set up now, it seems that the ICs do not have freedom, get no benefits or protections from being an employee and retain all of the liability of self-employed individuals.  What is the upside for the independent contractor?  There seems to be a lot of upsides for CC.

 

Can someone who is a Director tell me what I am not getting?  

 

I don't get it either. I've done work for years as both an IC and as part-time, term-limited employee. Where I do fixed-price course development, evaluation, or revision, I'm an IC.  Where I'm teaching for state and federal government organizations with fixed curriculum on a set day and time, I'm an employee.

[chilliepepper]

(Advance apologies for a very long post)

 

So I’ve spent every spare minute of the last 24 hours reading this thread, and I’m proud to say I’ve read the whole thing. I realize the thread is a little old and has taken some twists and turns, but I’m here to ask for some reassurance (if there is any to be had). This is my first post on this forum, and no I am NOT some sort of troll or mole or double agent or whatever. I didn’t join here to try to promote any point of view; just to get some advice.

 

Back story:

 

I’m a new homeschooling mom. NHSM? I pulled my two boys, ages 9 and 7 (also have a 3yo boy) out of public school after several years of angst: have always admired homeschoolers, have been increasingly concerned about the direction public schools are heading and the absence of time in the day to make up for things that were lacking, have long wanted my boys to be homeschooled, just didn’t think I could do it. I would pretty much break out in a cold sweat every time I thought about it. It’s not that I lack intelligence, though I would say I lag behind many of you…but for some reason I just couldn’t get my arms around what exactly we would do. The myriad of approaches, curricula, schedules, learning styles…way too overwhelming for me, not to mention the fact that I couldn’t figure out how I would be able to keep up with all the other junk I do (what exactly do I do? I really don’t know but somehow it seems to fill most of my days).

 

By this past spring, this had become a crisis for me. I have dreams for my boys. I know that they don’t have to comply to my dreams, and God might have different plans—but I would like to give them the competence that they would need to one day champion truth in our culture, in a way that would be winsome (I know, CC buzzword) instead of repulsive like much of what I see in the news and social media. Over the weeks and months, it was becoming more and more clear to me that public school wasn’t going to give them this type of competence, and with them gone 6 1/2 hours out of each day and the rest of the day filled with homework, extracurricular activities (which we limited but still), chores, dinner, play, bath, etc., I wasn’t going to be able to do it either. This consumed my thoughts and I got to the point that I was bursting into tears anytime I was asked how I was doing.

 

Enter CC. I happened upon it somewhat by chance (though judging from some of what’s been said on this thread, maybe it was all by meticulous design as part of an evil conspiracy). A homeschooling friend of mine was going to attend an informational meeting. She didn’t even invite me at first, but the minute she mentioned it, I brightened up for some reason. So, she asked me if I wanted to go. Long story short…she didn’t even go to the meeting (she had already decided to join CC and other things came up that day), but I did. It was just the director (new community), one other mom, and me. In the space of an hour, I went from “I can’t do it†to “I think I CAN do this—and not only that, but I think I want to!†

 

I’m not even sure what I heard about CC that day, but since then I’ve called it my “come to Jesus meeting.†All of a sudden, here was a community of people, backed up by an organization that provided accountability and stability, that could tell me what to do. I don’t mean that in a “you say jump and I’ll jump†way, but in the sense of “this is working for these people that seem reasonably competent, so it’s a good place to start. Surely doing what they are doing couldn’t be too disastrous.â€

 

At that time, even after the info meeting I didn’t really know that much about classical education, but the idea of memorizing facts that would later become pegs on which to hang knowledge and understanding really appealed to me. I contrasted it with my own education, where my reading comprehension and understanding of modern events as an adult has been limited by my lack of (what do you call it?) assumed cultural knowledge to help me understand what I’m reading or hearing.

 

The other thing that appealed to me was that somehow, it seemed like CC would give me rails to run on. I knew I needed to provide math and language arts curricula (with the exception of LA for my 9yo who will start Essentials this year), but for the other stuff, it looked like the grammar of the subjects being memorized could provide starting points for me to build around. So I figured I was all set.

 

Enter this thread. I found it by googling something like “memory work without context,†after a skeptical pro-public-school friend had questioned me about CC’s methodology. Until this, I had been under the impression that the memorization of facts without context was ok in the grammar stage; not that it would be *wrong* to add in some context, but that if we didn’t get it all down on the first pass, it would be ok because this wouldn’t be our first trip through all these facts, and context would come in as they got older and had more opportunities to delve into the details.

 

Now, I’m all befuddled. I refuse to call it the disaster that some have made it out to be. It sounds like there are enough people who have benefitted greatly from CC (including some friends of mine that have been in it for years) that I can be confident that this year is not a total loss. And—if it weren’t for CC and the catalytic moment that I had this past spring, my kids would probably be gearing up for another year in PS even as I write. I think we can at least do better than that.

 

However: moving forward (and this question is for those of you who DON’T think CC is giving us a “real†classical education), I have two questions:

 

1. What would you suggest that a NHSCCM could do, given the koolaid is already down the hatch, to fill in the gaps during this year of CC that we’re already committed to? I understand that you don’t feel there’s enough time to cover all the context that you think is necessary…but what would be something reasonable that I could do? I do own SOTW volume 3, Early Modern Times, which includes material that should correspond to CC Cycle 3. Would that be a good thing to incorporate, and if so, how? Please don’t give me an all-or-nothing proposition. What about Science? What else?

 

2. If CC doesn’t end up working out for us (and I haven’t given up hope that it will), how would I go about transitioning to a more “real†classical homeschool education, starting at age 10, 8 and 4 by next fall? What should be the elements of our days? I don’t know where to start.

 

Thanks, to whoever has stuck with me to the end of this loooooooong post. I look forward to reading your insight.

[lorisuewho]

Even though I don't do CC and won't do CC, I do think it works for many people, so I definitely wouldn't panic. I think reading aloud Story of the World alongside CC is a good plan for history. I would be most concerned not about CC but that I was doing a solid math program, a good phonics or spelling program and that I had good books picked out for my children to read. I would do some sort of writing with the 8 year old. Writing with Ease or English Lessons through Literature or if you want something more textbook maybe Rod and Staff English. There are many more options for writing, but that is what came to my mind first. I personally would view CC as an extra and make sure I was geared up to do the most important stuff on my own.

 

I think memory work out of context is ridiculous. I know you didn't ask my opinion but I will throw it out there anyway. Memory work yes, out of context no. I focus on my children memorizing things that are in context, scripture, poetry (beautiful language)and things I want them to internalize and become part of them.

 

As for what can you do to learn more about classical education, I would pick up and read thoroughly with a pen in hand a couple of books. Maybe The Well Trained Mind or Latin Centered Curriculum or some of the works by Charlotte Mason. You don't have to pick a theory and run with it, but it helps to read a number of different ways of "doing" classical education.

[G5052]

We were involved with CC for seven years, and I have no regrets about those years.  Some years we gave up having a vacation in order to do CC, and there were times that we were so tight on $$$ that I barely got there and back on a near-empty gas tank.  But we made the sacrifice.

 

During the Foundations/Essentials years, I used the Sonlight core that approximated the CC cycle.  It wasn't an exact match, but with the read-alouds and discussing their reading, we certainly made many connections with what they were learning.  My older one read the SOTW chapter(s) that fit each history sentence.  I didn't have the time and energy for a custom program each week, and Sonlight got done.  For science I just kept using BJUP most of the way, again because it worked for me and there were plenty of connections.  Both kids used the same history/lit/science each year with adjusted expectations.

 

In the last few years that my younger one was in CC, we switched to Veritas Press for history.  The self-paced history has excellent books that you can plug in.  For science, I switched to Christian Light.  

 

So you certainly can pick curriculum that enhances your experience with CC while getting your feet wet with both homeschooling and the classical approach.  I'd pick open-and-go choices like the ones I listed or others.  Don't try to create your own unless you really have the time and energy.

 

As I've already noted on this thread, Challenge wasn't as good a fit for us.  Both of mine are mostly using Veritas Press materials for history/lit now, one by taking their online classes and one by taking a local history/lit/writing class from a teacher that bases her materials on Veritas Press.  Both ended up with Latin with online teachers.  So one thing at a time, but you don't have to do it all yourself. 

 

When mine graduate, I won't be going back as a Challenge Director, but those were still good years.  We all learned a lot.

[RootAnn]

1. but what would be something reasonable that I could do? I do own SOTW volume 3, Early Modern Times, which includes material that should correspond to CC Cycle 3. Would that be a good thing to incorporate, and if so, how? Please don’t give me an all-or-nothing proposition. What about Science? What else?

 

2. If CC doesn’t end up working out for us (and I haven’t given up hope that it will), how would I go about transitioning to a more “real†classical homeschool education, starting at age 10, 8 and 4 by next fall? What should be the elements of our days? I don’t know where to start.

 

1. History:  I'd read a chapter (or two - if you have a short chapter) of Story of the World each week - starting the week or two before CC starts up. Plan to check out other books from the library on topics that are interesting for your kids. Talk about them.

 

Science:  I don't know what CC Cycle 3 does for science, but see if you can find some books from the library on the memory topics each week. Read them, skim through them with the kids, or just leave them around for the kids to look at. (Ah! Found the topics & they provide some ideas here. Mr. Q offers a free Life Science program - which, if you have a Tablet, might be something to look at. 

 

2. By the time you have homeschooled for a year, read some of the books recommended by others (The Well Trained Mind is a great place to start). and read this forum for that long, you'll be able to answer that question yourself. 

 

If you want to get an idea what other people are using for their X grade kid, there are threads on that. Check out the K-8th grade board.

Edited to add:  I found the 1st grade thread & the 3rd grade thread because I have kids in both. There are threads every year for all the grades where you can see what people are using. The first grade one is sometimes scary because some people are homeschooling their first (or only) and they plan too much (at least for ME! with my lots-of-kids). But, it is a way to see what other people are using.

[bethben]

A lot of people that have problems with CC is that they really can do better for a less amount of money.  That is probably true for some of the people who frequent this board.  That being said, I started a CC group a few years ago (and stopped attending CC for various reasons not related to the company, but only family issues).  I started it to reach out to people who thought they couldn't homeschool and give them a way to help them homeschool.  I had one particular person who took their 12 year old out of school and didn't feel confident enough to homeschool on her own or even pick out curriculum.  CC was a really good fit for her.  I think it would be for you also.  If it really encourages you to feel like you can homeschool, GO FOR IT!  Don't worry about memorizing out of context or anything in this thread.  If you get a good running start and are successful, your confidence will grow and you can leave CC if you want or like some of my friends, stay with it for the long haul.  Give yourself a year with CC with no guilt to get started on this path.  You can always shift later if you want and a year will also give you time to see what you really want for your children.  

[*lifeoftheparty*]

CC is downright fabulous for our family.

 

DS could care less about most academics, despite being very smart.

 

When we read about History, or Science, or whatever- he does NOT retain the information- he just doesn't. But he sure as heck retains all of his memory work!

 

We started CC when he was in first grade, and we are now going in to 5th. I have seen the whole peg board thing work with him. I have seen him learn something (and the light bulb go on) when reading a book, watching a TV show, or attending a field trip, etc. and he hears information that pertains to memory work- and he retains every bit of that!!

 

I am completely sold on CC because I have seen it work for my son, and for his classmates. We will stay with it all the way through.

 

Our community is awesome, and we have made wonderful friends.

 

Have you read The Core? The Question? I didn't read The Core until we had been in for a few years and it helped me to see the big picture- I am reading The Question right now. That is REALLY helping me to see the big picture.

 

Honestly, not everyone takes the same path. Some people love public schools, have no problem with them and swear up and down that their kids are thriving in those institutions. That's great for them- but I know, *I know in my gut*, that my child would be a completely different person, with a drastically different future if he was ever put into public schools. I know that our family would be drastically different. So, while it might work for some- public schools would never in a million years work for us.

 

Some people might feel that way about CC- they might not have had the same experience. They might belong to awful, unorganized communities, etc. so it doesn't work for them.

 

Whatever.

 

We do what we do (CC) because I have seen the fruits that the program has produced in my son, my family and our community. Anyone who "doubts" what we do isn't close enough to us to know anything about my family- so I wouldn't give a flying flip about what they think.

 

Stop caring about what other people think.

 

Is the program working for your children and family?

Do you enjoy being in a CC community?

Do you believe it's a good solid program that you can easily supplement to make even better?

 

If you answered yes, then just keep on truckin'.

 

If you answered no, then move on and find whatever it is will do that for you.

[Just Beachy]

Enjoy your time in CC. It really can be a great program, and the community aspect, for parents as well as the children, has been a life line at times. It was so nice to be able to share in our victories and our struggles.

 

There is nothing wrong with making CC your spine. You do need to use a good math program though. Also, I did not emphasize the 1st semester math memory work. I don't like skip counting because I feel it stalled both of my girls, so we worked on our multiplication tables instead. SOTW is a great resource, and some wonderful mom has, I'm sure, already posted chapters to match each week. In fact, I'm certain you can also find science resources on CC Connected as well.

 

However, if I could do it all over again, I wouldn't worry so much about that. We would read it for sure, but I would also spend more time on copy work. Instead of memorizing Latin declensions and conjugations, I would've done a more rounded latin program. I would've done more copy work, and focused more on memorizing great poems and speeches. I would've started a literature program earlier than I did. Essentials is a wonderful program, but I wouldn't have waited until then to start a formal study of grammar.

 

Truly, enjoy your time in CC. We did. The criticisms here though are legit. I always said I would take homeschooling one year at a time, and that was a mistake. It can be easy to simply trust that CC has done all the leg work. To believe that as long as you follow the program everything will be okay. For some, that is the case. It wasn't for us though. One other thing I would do differently is not wait until the summer before my daughter's 9th grade year to research what credits colleges are expecting their incoming freshmen to have. I feel as though she is playing catch-up. Fortunately, she is a bright girl, and I know she'll be fine, and I am thankful for the opportunity to better prepare my younger daughter who does tend to struggle.

 

Good luck to you in this new adventure. Cycle 3 is a lot of fun.

 

:) Beachy

[...................]

Even if the criticisms here are legitimate, that doesn't mean you should stop doing something that is working for you, and which you enjoy.  If you are afraid it's too much out of context just add Story of the World.  CC even sells it in their catalog I think.

 

I'm not the biggest CC fan, but I am a fan of staying with sometihng that is working for you.  And if you are happy and the kids are happy, and you can afford it, and everyone is learning and you feel like it's worth your time, who cares what other people say about memory being out of context?  

(And this is coming from one of the people who have openly criticized CC in this very thread.)   

[skboren]

I found this thread while Googling for something indirectly related. I actually read through this entire thread and wanted to throw in my two cents. This is our second year as part of a CC community. Due to relocation and other factors, we've been in three different communities during the past 1.5 years, one in Virginia and two in Colorado. We joined in Virginia because there were very few homeschoolers in our area who weren't part of CC, thus we needed the support, and it sounded like a wonderful program from all accounts. Besides, my daughter craved the classroom environment we had left behind when we pulled her from public school. I enrolled both my kids, then in 2nd and 4th grades, in Foundations. We elected not to do Essentials last year, even though kids typically begin Essentials in 4th grade, because I wanted to take things slowly and see how we did with just Foundations. 

 

I'll readily admit that those first few weeks had me wanting to quit. It was strange and unlike anything I'd seen or experienced. I felt like the morning was spent hurriedly shoving disjointed pieces of information down the kids' throats with no regard for their curiosity to dig deeper. I thought, they're being treated as though they were little robots rather than human beings. But in those first four weeks my attitude toward the program shifted as I realized that the kids genuinely enjoyed learning this way, were able to assimilate tremendous amounts of information in a short time span, and that it was easy to fill in context for all that memory work at home during the remainder of the week. THEY were not feeling devalued or dehumanized in the slightest - that was my error in projecting how an adult would feel in that type of learning environment. The exposure to the barrage of contextless information on community day piqued my kids' curiosity, and I was able to quench that thirst with a combination of our resources at home and online, and materials from the library. They learned an absolutely tremendous amount, and enjoyed it much more, and retained much more, as a result of that structured group environment than if we had just done the work at home. 

 

The CC environment eased the kids' transition from public school and facilitated the easy making of new friends, so I agree with those who've expressed that CC makes homeschooling doable for many homeschool parents who are struggling to figure out what to do, and how to accomplish it all. CC gives those parents a common academic framework to serve as a jumping-off point, and a social network of families who are following the same program at different stages, and who are thus well-qualified to provide guidance and support. 

 

The history sentences and timeline have allowed all of us (even me) to make connections between events and between subjects that we would not have made otherwise. The kids, who are 8- and 10-years-old, have such an understanding of the topics we've covered in history for CC Cycles 2 and 3 so far, that they have independently pointed out insightful parallels between New York Times articles on current foreign policy and events that occurred during the French Revolution and during the reign of Henry VIII. Yes, we fill in some context at home, but it is those pegs, those possibly annoying little songs, that keep the most pertinent information cemented in memory, so we have a mental label on our bucketful of contextual details. I can't overemphasize how advantageous it is to have all those names, dates, and places neatly filed away for effortless retrieval at any time or for any purpose. My kids will never struggle to recall the names of the planets in our solar system, the major organs involved in each body system, who the Allies and the Axis powers were, etc. The ability to easily retrieve pertinent information that will be used through college and beyond is infinitely valuable to the person found in possession of it. 

 

The bits of memory work doesn't need to be painful. The bits that don't have tunes to accompany, you can put to a tune yourself, or see what audio other parents have uploaded to CC Connected! This year, as the Essentials tutor for our community, I've put the linking verb definition and list to the "Star Wars" main theme tune, I've put the Adverbs grammar chart to "Bear Necessities" from the Jungle Book. A student in our Essentials class put all the prepositions to the tune of "Let It Go." Our Adjectives grammar chart is to the tunes of various Christmas carols, etc... In Foundations, we likewise have almost all of the memory work put to music. 

 

My daughter's writing ability and enthusiasm for completing writing assignments has improved markedly as she is part of Essentials this year. It has been a great benefit for many of these kids to be given time to share their compositions orally with the class and receive helpful feedback, constructive criticism, and encouragement. 

 

In response to those who expressed concern that Essentials forces all students to progress at the same rate, as a tutor, I would respond that both EEL and IEW are structured purposely to be adaptable to a wide range of skill levels. We present IEW stylistic elements in class on a schedule to give the students initial exposure, but more importantly, to give parents background, understanding, and confidence to teach/model and require each stylistic element at home AS their student becomes ready. There is an Excel version of the IEW checklist available so that it's simple for parents to customize requirements for their individual students. This type of customization is emphasized and encouraged. No student is pushed by the Essentials environment to progress more quickly or slowly than he is ready, and the students all understand and accept that they will all be working at different levels. 

 

Oh, and the Foundations skip-counting made multi-digit multiplication and division tremendously less arduous for both kids. 

 

All of that said, I do agree with some of the criticisms aimed at CC in this thread. I don't think it's the only way or the best way for every family. Not at all. It is expensive. People sometimes get pushy or creepy about it, like a religion. It can feel rough to have only four days a week to get everything else done. (We actually have only 3 days to get everything else done, because our kids do another enrichment program on another weekday, so the schedule is crazy for 24 weeks out of the year.) It's a little too evangelical-leaning for my complete comfort - I wish it were more broadly Christian, or even allowed space for a greater diversity of religious traditions. Having grown up amid a decent amount of cultural diversity, I am curious to observe the discussions in Challenge levels around certain scientific and political topics and hear how opposing viewpoints are presented.

 

I agree that it is regrettable that many of us tutors are simply parents who may or may not be well-versed in the subject matter, and may or may not have a great deal of teaching experience. (Although we tutors do our very best, and I do feel that there is something positive about a humble environment where the teacher and the learner are equals. Not a few of the great men and women of history lacked formal education, but nevertheless managed to obtain one using whatever resources were available. I think pursuing that sets a noble example for our kids.) I can't speak for the efficacy of Challenge program to prepare students for university-level work, however. When my kids reach that age we may possibly bow out due to the price tag, or due to objections to the way certain topics are addressed, or due to lack of academic rigor if that becomes a concern - I'm not sure. 

 

I first read TWTM cover-to-cover when my now 10-year-old was an infant, and it resonated strongly with me, more so than any of the other homeschooling books and articles I had read. I knew I wanted my kids to reap the rewards of a classical education. I do believe CC is one potentially valuable component of a full and genuinely classical education, at least at the Foundations and Essentials levels. The degree to which CC meets the "classical" descriptor depends in part on what the parent chooses to do with it. I can't say whether we'll continue with CC next year, but it has been and continues to be a wonderful experience for our family, and this coming from someone who was rubbed very wrong by the contextless memory work at first. But I've since been converted, or have drunk the Kool-aid, so to speak. I'd encourage families to evaluate it for themselves and make an independent decision to do whatever they feel is best for them and their children. It may be CC and it may not be, but either way is truly okay.

[Guest Fiveewings]

I think it is pretty harsh as well to discredit it. We love it. It gives us community and we have made many friends by joining. Also, CC doesn't tell you that you only are to memorize and do nothing else. We are told continually that we are the parent and we can dig in deeper with our children as much or as little as we would like. I like the way one person said that CC provides the bones and at home, we provide the meat. Even in Essentials, you can go home and do all or none, or your own English. We have tried several writing programs last year and none of them worked for our family. IEW has been wonderful though. Some things work for some, and don't work for others. That is the beauty of homeschooling, that you can choose to educate in your own way that fits best. I am sorry you did not like CC, but it is pretty rude to discount it completely when it is such a blessing to others.

[Susan Wise Bauer]

I'm closing this thread because it appears that we've had some CC boosters join for just for the purpose of supporting CC, which isn't really the purpose of this board.

 

SWB

[Susan Wise Bauer]

I'm closing this thread because it appears that we've had some CC boosters join for just for the purpose of supporting CC, which isn't really the purpose of this board.

 

SWB

[Susan Wise Bauer]

I'm closing this thread because it appears that we've had some CC boosters join for just for the purpose of supporting CC, which isn't really the purpose of this board.

 

SWB