Guest inoubliable Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 A member here asked me to post this on her behalf. A local charter school that her children attend now has a lending library. This library is stocked with a lot of religious curricula - not just books on religion. (Think Abeka, Apologia, and creationist based science.) She asked the teacher if the books were bought with public funds or donated and the teacher responded that the materials were mostly donated and that they go through a rigorous review to make sure that all materials align with their core values and principals. Our OP is uncomfortable with a public school providing religious curricula, even if it is donated, and wonders about the legality of this. She's concerned that a public school would proclaim to have religious values and principals and now is even more reluctant to be open with her non-belief. OP lives in a very conservative, Christian community and is afraid to ask too many questions for fear of being ostracized. What say the Hive? Should a public charter school be lending donated religious curricula? Should they be telling members that they have religious values and principals as part of their school's core philosophies? Should OP say something to the principal? If so, what would you say? I'll update with more, if OP decides to add to this. Thanks! -KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Χά�ων Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 I highly doubt they went through a rigorous review. Or at the very least not reviewed by someone knowledgeable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMA Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 In an online search, I found this: https://www.au.org/files/Religion%20in%20the%20Public%20Schools%20-%20entire%20text_1.pdf I know the source could be biased but I think the citations are valid and gives you a research point to start with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest inoubliable Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 I highly doubt they went through a rigorous review. Or at the very least not reviewed by someone knowledgeable. Agreed. The teacher in charge of the library said that it was a review process including herself and the principal. I dunno... that sounds fishy to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angie in VA Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Curious if she's in VA, but not asking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Charter schools are at the outer rim of public schools, in a way, as they often are founded by a group of parents hoping to craft an education around a shared set of goals. They have a high failure rate where I live, I have the impression. Are these books being used in the classroom? If so, I definitely don't think that is right for a charter school. I would withdraw my child at the mildest, and would escalate a report at the strongest. Even if this is a charter school founded entirely by non-denominational Protestants, it is a public (state) institution, and a sneaky move such as this should be stopped. (If the materials are being used for teaching purposes, even this Christian poster considers it sneaky under the circumstances, and would blow the whistle.) If the religious books -- even religious-including curricula -- are in the library solely as lending materials, allowing students to borrow or ignore, as they wish, and since they were not purchased with public funds, there may not be a conflict. If the materials are used outside of school hours, for extra-curricular groups, there might, or might not, be a problem. If the state is paying for facilities and facilities use, then at the least, permission from the school district (or whatever state body regulates the charters) should be secured. Permission might even be granted for after-school-hours social groups that want, for whatever reason, to study creation science in addition to the state-approved curricula. I'm just thinking at the keyboard. . . Some of the religious-based curricula are sound, academically. Yes, even some of the science textbooks. They just don't belong in a public school classroom. I think your friend rightfully could ask to read the charter materials. Surely they should be legally available to prospective (and enrolled) families for review. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolt. Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 In our system, charter schools are free to teach a religion and/or the values of a/any religion(s) openly, as a part of instruction. In fact, the entire local 'separate' school board is Catholic, teaching 'religion' and holding occasional mass for the students. Our main public school board teaches secular-humanist values and virtues. Charters are something like their own 'mini school board' so they have similar freedoms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mytwomonkeys Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 well. not the popular answer, but it wouldn't bother me. even assuming the books weren't christian, and were other religious curriculum ....or strongly political with a narrow POV... or whatever. it's a lending library & not a curriculum in the classroom. not to mention, I can't imagine a kid checking out abeka curriculum for enjoyment :confused1: . even if they did, i imagine it wouldn't have any influence on them. same with apologia. if they even used it as a reference for some reason, i assume they will have several resources to pull from. a library has a wide selection, and including religious books isn't a big deal to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Sounds odd to me. This probably isn't technically the best advice in the world, but I would advise her not to make any waves about it, as long as the materials aren't being used in the classrooms. I know the "right" thing to do would be to question those in authority about it if it really bothers her, but if she fears that she and her children will be ostracized as a result, I don't think it's worth it for her to raise a stink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 It's a lending library. People who want religious materials can borrow them. People who don't can leave them alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Does this charter school explicitly bill itself as having "religious values and principals"? (I'm using your exact words, KK.) Or, does your friend simply extrapolate that from the presence in the lending library of the materials? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 In our system, charter schools are free to teach a religion and/or the values of a/any religion(s) openly, as a part of instruction. In fact, the entire local 'separate' school board is Catholic, teaching 'religion' and holding occasional mass for the students. Our main public school board teaches secular-humanist values and virtues. Charters are something like their own 'mini school board' so they have similar freedoms. Checking my memory, Bolt. You are in Canada? If so, very different set-up down here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoobie Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 I'm not sure how it being a charter school vs regular public school affects things. An interesting twist on corporations taking over public education... The Bible and religious books may be in a public school library. However, there should be a variety of religious texts; no one sect's materials may dominate the collection. Roberts v. Madigan (lost cite but it's in the link) http://www.leagle.com/decision/19892207702FSupp1505_11933 If it makes her uncomfortable, she is within her rights to ask for a review of the materials and pursue it. In theory, she and her child should not suffer for speaking up, but in practice... The whole "War on Christmas" mentality that's so in vogue right now has the extreme majority feeling tiny and persecuted. It may turn ugly. But, if she feels strongly about it, she shouldn't be afraid of religious bullies. The local chapter of the ACLU may be able to offer her advice on how to proceed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 This depends on how the charter school is set up. That is different in each state. I probably would not be terribly bothered, but I'd want to check what the class curricula were and make sure if matched what I was hoping when I chose the particular charter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starr Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 It's a library. If she doesn't want to engage this board I don't think she's up for engaging the school. :grouphug: I doubt it's strictly illegal. We need to all teach our children how to make choices for what we find healthy for our own family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Well, the founders of this school are quite unlikely to be "religious bullies." They probably/possibly just thought that they had found a loophole way (i.e. a charter school) to reconcile their personal values with a public education. They err, however. Finances usually are pretty clear for U.S. education issues. Somebody from Alaska chime in, if you are reading this thread, and correct me if necessary. I think I remember hearing or reading that there are lump sums made available in Alaska for homeschoolers, so long as no religious materials are purchased with the monies. This, however, may be an old memory no longer applicable. The point is that government funds are for government-type materials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luanne Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 (edited) nm Edited November 16, 2013 by Moderator Don't derail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravin Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 I have encountered at least one charter school organization that was explicitly created by a Christian school organization in order to operate charter schools. The organization operating Christian private schools was legally separate, but they shared philosophy with respect to education and the spin on the charter schools was a focus on "values" rather than explicit religious instruction. There are definitely schools walking a fine line out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest inoubliable Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 No new info from the OP (I believe she's at an extracurricular activity with her children right now.)I don't think she's in VA. The school does get public funds. The books aren't being used in the classrooms, no. They're in the lending library and available for any of the families to check out and use as their curriculum at home. I think what bothers her the most is if this is legal and she's uncomfortable with the school saying (in her words) that the school has those particular values and principals and so that's why they passed the review. There doesn't seem to be books on any other religions available (at least the OP hasn't mentioned it). The books available seem to be a very specific brand of Xtianity. She says this, "My biggest problem is I feel the school is saying - this is what we stand for. I worry that the people interested in attending the program but are not conservative Christians will see the offerings in the library and be turned away further skewing the population thus making people like me and people of other religions less welcome." OP did add that a friend of hers teaches for one of these charter schools enrichment programs with a lending library. The friend was shocked to find out about the offerings and seemed to think it was against the law. Again, I'm not sure which state OP is in. If she lets me know, I'll add it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest inoubliable Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Does this charter school explicitly bill itself as having "religious values and principals"? (I'm using your exact words, KK.) Or, does your friend simply extrapolate that from the presence in the lending library of the materials? Apparently, that's what the teacher in charge of the lending library told the OP when she asked her about the books. I'm afraid I don't know much more yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest inoubliable Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 (edited) nm Edited November 16, 2013 by Moderator Don't react. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest inoubliable Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Well, the founders of this school are quite unlikely to be "religious bullies." They probably/possibly just thought that they had found a loophole way (i.e. a charter school) to reconcile their personal values with a public education. They err, however. Finances usually are pretty clear for U.S. education issues. Somebody from Alaska chime in, if you are reading this thread, and correct me if necessary. I think I remember hearing or reading that there are lump sums made available in Alaska for homeschoolers, so long as no religious materials are purchased with the monies. This, however, may be an old memory no longer applicable. The point is that government funds are for government-type materials. I've heard that over and over again for states that provide funds for homeschoolers. I think it's not just Alaska. I think California is like this, too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freckles Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 I'm not sure I see the problem as long as books from varied beliefs are made available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest inoubliable Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 ...as long as books from varied beliefs are made available. That's exactly one of the problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idnib Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 I think it's possibly illegal. For example, would the library display religious pamphlets (of any religion) simply because they were donated and people were free to take or leave them, or switch schools if they felt uncomfortable? I'm not sure they are "in the clear" simply because no public funds were spent or because they are part of a lending library rather than classroom materials. Just thinking out loud here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freckles Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 The friend of the OP might be able to have a win-win situation by donating more books of her choice to the Library. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest inoubliable Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 I think it's possibly illegal. For example, would the library display religious pamphlets (of any religion) simply because they were donated and people were free to take or leave them, or switch schools if they felt uncomfortable? I'm not sure they are "in the clear" simply because no public funds were spent or because they are part of a lending library rather than classroom materials. Just thinking out loud here. Good question, and good point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest inoubliable Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 The friend of the OP might be able to have a win-win situation by donating more books of her choice to the Library. I'm not sure that's a real solution to the problem... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMA Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 I just skimmed through the link I posted. P. 61 addresses this issue. This document is posted by a group for separation of church and state. I think that Supreme Court case is a basis for this situation. It states that you can't use religious reasons to get rid of a book from a library. A library is very different from curriculum in the classroom. If the OP is that concerned, he/she should consult a constitutional lawyer or call the ACLU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolt. Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 As info: I'm in Alberta, Canada. And, yes, publically funded schools (separate board, charter schools or homeschooling boards) are free the teach both religious content (as a subject being taught) and various values and virtues associated with a faith or faiths. There is also the main public board which is required to be secular and/ or equally open towards all faiths or non-religious worldviews as expressed by the students. These also have character, virtues, and values variously emphasized through instruction. We have both a Christian charter and an Islamic one within our area, as well as many charters that have distinctions of other (non-religious) types, such as subject emphases, educational philosophies, 2nd languages, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freckles Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 I'm not sure that's a real solution to the problem... Why not? I grew up in public school. We had books to check out from all faiths and traditions. It's hard to read tone in type. I'm not being snarky. I was a public school teacher. Our library was filled with all types of books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justasque Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 I don't think she's in VA. The school does get public funds. The books aren't being used in the classrooms, no. They're in the lending library and available for any of the families to check out and use as their curriculum at home. Is this a lending library in a bricks-and-mortar school, where students can borrow books? Or is this a public charter school-for-homeschoolers, with a library of curricular materials intended to be borrowed by parents to use in instructing their students? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest inoubliable Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Why not? I grew up in public school. We had books to check out from all faiths and traditions. It's hard to read tone in type. I'm not being snarky. I was a public school teacher. Our library was filled with all types of books. I'm not sure you read the entire thread, or maybe you misunderstood then... These aren't just books on religion in a library. This is a publicly funded charter school providing homeschooling materials. The materials are Xtian. That's the only faith represented. Curricula. Not books. I find it hard to believe anyone would be upset about a lending library having all types of books in stock... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest inoubliable Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Is this a lending library in a bricks-and-mortar school, where students can borrow books? Or is this a public charter school-for-homeschoolers, with a library of curricular materials intended to be borrowed by parents to use in instructing their students? It's the latter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluemongoose Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 I would not have a problem with it as it is not used in the classroom and is for people to check out or not. Since it is donated and not paid for with public money, I really don't see much room for complaining. The best thing to do would be to donate some curriculum or books with an alternate view if one wants to see things more well rounded. It also makes sense that if the OP lives in an area that has a large proportion of Conservative Christians in homeschooling, that the majority of what would be donated in the way of curriculum would match their views. I live in an area where my views are also in the minority. My library has a very small section that would coincide with my beliefs, but the majority's view has a much larger section. I have to accept this because it is representing the community that I live in. I could contribute to my section via donations, or I can purchase what I need. I don't feel the need to make a big deal about it, it is not like they are trying to persuade me to change my beliefs because they have more to offer for those of other beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 (edited) nm Edited November 16, 2013 by Moderator Don't react. Or derail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freckles Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 I just misunderstood. I thought you were talking about a regular school library. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMA Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 It's the latter. It is still a library, not a required curriculum for use. That's the sticky part. The OP could request more books of type X and type Y be brought in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest inoubliable Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 I just misunderstood. I thought you were talking about a regular school library. No problem. :) I know I'd definitely welcome a library with a variety of material in it. My own town's library is sorely lacking. In fact, my children are going through several books on Catholicism sent to them by a WTM friend this month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 With the knowledge that it's religious curricula meant to be used by the charter school parents who are teaching their children at home, I think it's pretty clear that it's not acceptable. Of course, if the school isn't requiring the OP's friend to use said curricula and they're happy with the funds/freedom the charter allows, then I get why they might not say anything... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest inoubliable Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 It is still a library, not a required curriculum for use. That's the sticky part. The OP could request more books of type X and type Y be brought in. Perhaps. It's still curricula, though, and meant to be used as part of the families' homeschools. So I don't know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mytwomonkeys Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 I'm not sure you read the entire thread, or maybe you misunderstood then... These aren't just books on religion in a library. This is a publicly funded charter school providing homeschooling materials. The materials are Xtian. That's the only faith represented. Curricula. Not books. I find it hard to believe anyone would be upset about a lending library having all types of books in stock... I read the whole thread & misunderstood it somehow too. I was under the impression they actually attended this school & these things weren't used by students in the classroom, only available for checkout. If it is a lending library for homeschoolers, I can't imagine any family is going to borrow Abeka unless that is their cup of tea. Even a lot of Christians dislike Abeka, ykwim? Same with Apologia. You don't have to be homeschooling long to know that it's YE science. Not to mention, if there is a librarian or helper available, I'm sure she can answer questions for anyone that is clueless for some reason. Having other religious curriculum available may not be excluded on purpose by any means. The truth is there isn't a huge selection that I'm aware of outside of secular and christian (broken down into either protestant or catholic usually). Other religious curricula is going to be much more scarce & I imagine rarely donated. It's a shame really. I think that would be a nice resource as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitten18 Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 I would have a problem with it if the charter is using funds to buy the religious materials. I probably not have a problem with it if they were just donated by a family who was done with them. I know my charter would never use school funds to buy that kind of curriculum. And I would definitely raise an eyebrow if I saw apologia books in our curriculum library but I would just assume someone had donated it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 I read the whole thread & misunderstood it somehow too. I was under the impression they actually attended this school & these things weren't used by students in the classroom, only available for checkout. If it is a lending library for homeschoolers, I can't imagine any family is going to borrow Abeka unless that is their cup of tea. Even a lot of Christians dislike Abeka, ykwim? Same with Apologia. You don't have to be homeschooling long to know that it's YE science. Not to mention, if there is a librarian or helper available, I'm sure she can answer questions for anyone that is clueless for some reason. Honestly, I don't think that's true. I think many mainline Christians and even secular types get into homeschooling without realizing the agenda that ABeka, Apologia, etc. represent. And if the school has an agenda to encourage those values, then I hardly think they're going to be impartial in explaining the relative merits of the various options. They probably don't "see" it themselves. If your perspective is represented, you often don't realize how different it is from someone else's. This is a school whose curricula is meant to be used by parents to teach their kids. Parents are still free to purchase their own religious curricula, but the school should not be providing or promoting it for use in any way. It seems pretty clear cut to me. These aren't resource books about religion for kids or even parents to check out and read, these are curricula. I have always heard that charters were not allowed to provide religious curricula. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizzyBee Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 I went to public school and there were religious books in the library. I'm pretty sure it's legal because no-one is forced to read them. ETA: I just read some more posts and realized that this is a homeschool lending library. In my state, a charter school is a public school, so it didn't occur to me that the school described in the op might be related to homeschooling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freckles Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 I have no idea if it's legal or not but I hate this kind of stuff. Inappropriate. Your friend could do what I did with the religious material at my daughter's (public, secular) school - take it home and bin it. In the case of library materials, borrow it and lose it. Yeah, that's how strongly I feel about the insidious normalising of Christianity in secular spaces. And no, I don't hate Jesus :( Just curious... do you also lose Hindu, Buddhist, etc.. materials? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elfknitter.# Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Is this a charter in CA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest inoubliable Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 From the OP. "1. I am in Colorado. 2. The school is a public charter. There is not any type of religious language in its mission statement nor on their website. 3. The school is a large charter school and has an extensive waiting list. It is not unheard of for people to put their children on the waitlist for the full time program when they are babies. It is known as a very good school in this area. 4. These materials are not in the school library. It is a new collection of materials that parents can check out for the year by paying a refundable fee. 5. Of course we can go elsewhere if we are uncomfortable, there are other enrichment programs offered in this city. Is it right to pack up and go elsewhere when you feel something goes against your principles? Or is it better to speak up? How many parents would not say a word at their child's school if they felt something was fundamentally wrong? Technically around here anyone can just move to a different school at the parent's discretion as long as there is space available at the school of your choice so should we recommend all parents just choose another school if they have a problem? (<-- this is obviously hyperbole) 6. I feel like this school, which is well known and considered a very good school in this area, is saying to parents: This is what we feel is good curriculum to teach your children. This curriculum espouses the values we advocate at our school. For homeschooling parents that do not feel confident choosing curriculum this can be a big deal especially coming from such a well respected school - We should definitely use these materials, they are endorsed by XYZ School! 7. These materials are not just religious. Some are disrespectful to other religions including Christians that are not the same "type" of Christianity. There is one BJU history text printed prior to the school lifting its ban on interracial dating. I'm not sure what exactly the text entails but I am surprised a public school is housing the text and advocating its use by homeschoolers." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest inoubliable Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 I went to public school and there were religious books in the library. I'm pretty sure it's legal because no-one is forced to read them. This isn't a case of religious books in the library. Thanks for playing. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest inoubliable Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Just curious... do you also lose Hindu, Buddhist, etc.. materials? Couldn't you PM her? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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