Latin ??

[wehave8]

How do you choose which program to use?

Ecclesiastical or Classical?

I see many start with SSL (which I believe is classical) and then go to an ecclesiastical pronunciation.  Does that get confusing?

Also, we are not Catholic.  Would we not want to use ecclesiastical?

I've been looking through old posts and just can't figure out the right path for us... We are using CC at home, which uses classical, but then I bought PL, which is ecclesiastical, but I'm liking the looks of SSL & LfC (classical). If we go LfC route, what would you use next?  I've seen some go to Henle, but it is ecclesiastical.  Isn't it hard to jump back and forth?

Just can't figure it out.

 

DSs are 6, 8, & 10.

 

Pam

[NASDAQ]

I'm using Minimus with the 7 yo. I'm using it because I learned with Cambridge Latin, and they put this one out, and . . . there you go. I'm not sure that the differences between ecclesiastical and classical are all that important at an early elementary level.

[wehave8]

I'm using Minimus with the 7 yo. I'm using it because I learned with Cambridge Latin, and they put this one out, and . . . there you go. I'm not sure that the differences between ecclesiastical and classical are all that important at an early elementary level.

Well in our first lessons, CC and PL teach differences in pronunciations as well as rules for pronunciation.  I guess that bothers me, and so I want to plan now which way we want to go.  To me it feels like learning 2 different languages.  :(

 

Pam

[Dolphin]

Honestly, just search on here for Latin information. Look at as many samples as you want and they take a leap. Our first leap was a disaster. I researched as much as I could, but until I taught it, I didn't know what we were looking for.

 

Yes the pronunciation is different, but I would not make that the focus of your decision. With Greek, you need to pick your route as it is more than just pronunciation. 

 

Think about your teaching style, your students learning style. Do you want a program with lots of hand holding, maybe DVD lessons, or were you good at languages and are you going to learn along with your kiddo?

 

We started with LC and found our comfortable home with Latin Prep. (ds 11). With DD6 we are going to try song school Latin and see where that leads. I might try LC with her after SSL as she is such a different student to DS who hated LC. 

 

Best of luck.

[TKDmom]

I've done (with various kids) SSL, GSWL, Minimus, Lively Latin, and Latin Prep. All of those were classical (or we chose the classical option in the case of LL). In my mind classical was the *right* pronunciation, so it's the one I chose.

 

My eldest recently started First Form Latin, which is ecclesiastical. She started out, determined that she would stick with classical pronunciation, but succumbed to the ecclesiastical in a week or two. Ecclesiastical seems a lot more natural for an English speaker. The v's sound like v, rather than w. C usually has a ch sound. There is only one sound for each vowel, where classical has long and short sounds that don't correspond to English long and short vowel sounds.

 

So now, I prefer ecclesiastical. But the differences are fairly minor, and I wouldn't choose a program based on pronunciation. It's more like a different dialect than a whole 'nother language. I'm a lot more interested in the kids learning the "why" behind the language. Dd spent a lot of time with LL chanting things that she never understood, and Latin Prep pushed her too quickly into translation without enough explanation and practice (I really liked Latin Prep, but it got too hard too fast for her). SSL was fun for a first grader, but I only used it b/c ds wanted Latin like everyone else. It seemed to be more about exposure to the language than actually learning it.

 

I decided my younger kids would spend their elementary years more productively if they learn Spanish, then they can add a grammar-based Latin program when they get older. I think you need to decide your personal reasons are for teaching Latin, then choose a program based on your goals. Switching between pronunciation has not been hard here. And unless you are using a DVD or CD you can pronounce words however you like.

[ladydusk]

SSL and LFCA offer Ecclesiastical pronounciation options.  So far our path is: Just the songs from SSL 1 and  we'll start 2 next year in Circle Time.  For individual lessons, we start with Prima Latina then start the LFC series. We decided not to go to Henle as it is a Catholic text.  I suspect we'll stick with the CAP products.

 

I chose Ecclesiastical pronounciation because I suspect it's more likely that my kids will sing in Latin than they'll be Classicists.  And, I just couldn't say weenie-weedie-weechie.

 

YMMV.

[LLMom]

I do ecclesiastical Latin with my dc.  But I sent my 2 oldest to a private high school which does Classical Latin.  It wasn't a hard switch for them because there is not a huge difference.  I like the Ecclesiastical Latin because we know a lot of songs, prayers, and some scripture in Latin and all of those have Ecclesiastical Latin.

[brehon]

<snip>

 

My eldest recently started First Form Latin, which is ecclesiastical. She started out, determined that she would stick with classical pronunciation, but succumbed to the ecclesiastical in a week or two. Ecclesiastical seems a lot more natural for an English speaker. The v's sound like v, rather than w. C usually has a ch sound. There is only one sound for each vowel, where classical has long and short sounds that don't correspond to English long and short vowel sounds.

 

So now, I prefer ecclesiastical. But the differences are fairly minor, and I wouldn't choose a program based on pronunciation. It's more like a different dialect than a whole 'nother language. I'm a lot more interested in the kids learning the "why" behind the language. Dd spent a lot of time with LL chanting things that she never understood, and Latin Prep pushed her too quickly into translation without enough explanation and practice (I really liked Latin Prep, but it got too hard too fast for her). SSL was fun for a first grader, but I only used it b/c ds wanted Latin like everyone else. It seemed to be more about exposure to the language than actually learning it.

 

<snip>

I agree with TKDmom and the bolded is very important to remember.  The grammar of the language (declensions, conjugations, etc) is what is important and (unlike ancient Greek) there simply aren't significant differences between the two pronunciations.  There can be an additional case or 2 taught, depending on the program; but, those just aren't that hard to pick up. 

 

I believe it's still true that many university classics departments emphasize "classical" pronunciation.  Again, though, not that big a deal for those who learned ecclesiatstical pronunciation to handle. 

 

As to how to choose a program - first and foremost, figure out what your goals are for your boys (i.e., why do you want them to learn Latin), determine your comfort level teaching Latin (do you want to read ahead and teach them or would you be more comfortable with DVDs), and jump in.  Nothing is set in stone; if one program doesn't work, try another.  I'm not sure why not being Catholic would preclude one from learning/using ecclesiastical pronunciation and I personally wouldn't decide based on religion.  Also, given the ages of your boys, you may want to think about different programs.  Lively Latin is written to the student and is meant to begin around age 8 or so.  Your 10 yo would probably have no difficulties beginning with LL1; your 8 yo might require some additional hand-holding from you depending on his grasp on phonics/reading/comprehension.  For your 6 yo I'd personally just focus on a fun exposure and make sure his reading is solid.

 

My kids use Lively Latin (ecclesiastical pronunciation, in the interest of full disclosure).  My eldest will finish LL2 in the next month or so and then he'll either move to Henle (which I already own) or Galore Park's program (either LP 3 or SYRWTLL).  I'm also toying with the idea of signing him up for Lukeion Project's Latin class, but haven't decided one way or the other.

 

By the by I placed "classical" in quotes because the reality is we don't really know how the ancient Romans pronounced their Latin (and more than likely there were regional dialects).  What we call classical is more accurately Restored Classical.  Not really important one way or the other, just an interesting historical tidbit.  Good luck.

[Nomen Nescio]

The differences between Ecclesiastical and Classical pronunciation are not trivial, and in many cases the Ecclesiastical pronunciation leaves aside phonemic values that clarify grammar. If you don't study classical pronunciation, you're missing a big piece of what's going on in classical verse, and even if you're never going to read the classics there is a whole world of post-classical stress-based verse whose stresses are based on stress placement that remained in place after the actual vowel quantities that governed them got dropped in the middle ages. If you studied classical pronunciation, you can work out where the stresses are in Cattus Petasatus. If you studied Ecclesiastical pronunciation, you either memorized where the stresses fall (not a lot less work than just learning the vowel quantities) or you just have to deal with stress being vague, and therefore of Latin verse being little more than funny-looking prose. You condemn yourself to a kind of deafness when dealing with a large body of the available Latin literature.

[wehave8]

 I'm not sure why not being Catholic would preclude one from learning/using ecclesiastical pronunciation and I personally wouldn't decide based on religion. 

I guess if I could find an ecclesiastical pronunciation program that was not Catholic (which probably doesn't make sense), being we (personally) do not say prayers to Mary, etc., then I might consider it. I don't know much about all the programs out there and I don't want to offend anyone.  Just trying to understand it all! :)

 

The differences between Ecclesiastical and Classical pronunciation are not trivial, and in many cases the Ecclesiastical pronunciation leaves aside phonemic values that clarify grammar. If you don't study classical pronunciation, you're missing a big piece of what's going on in classical verse, and even if you're never going to read the classics there is a whole world of post-classical stress-based verse whose stresses are based on stress placement that remained in place after the actual vowel quantities that governed them got dropped in the middle ages. If you studied classical pronunciation, you can work out where the stresses are in Cattus Petasatus. If you studied Ecclesiastical pronunciation, you either memorized where the stresses fall (not a lot less work than just learning the vowel quantities) or you just have to deal with stress being vague, and therefore of Latin verse being little more than funny-looking prose. You condemn yourself to a kind of deafness when dealing with a large body of the available Latin literature.

This is the first solid reason I've heard for choosing one over the other.  It is definitely food for thought!  Thanks!

 

Pam

[brehon]

I guess if I could find an ecclesiastical pronunciation program that was not Catholic (which probably doesn't make sense), being we (personally) do not say prayers to Mary, etc., then I might consider it. I don't know much about all the programs out there and I don't want to offend anyone. Just trying to understand it all! :)

 

 

 

This is the first solid reason I've heard for choosing one over the other. It is definitely food for thought! Thanks!

 

Pam

 

Oh, I didn't take offence at all. I was just a little puzzled, that's all. :) I believe there are several programs which use ecclesiastical pronunciation which don't have any Catholic prayers incorporated in them. Although the ecclesiastical pronunciation is associated with the RCC, the truth is that (aside from various styles which were prominent during the Medieval and Renaissance periods and which today are mainly of interest to musicians involved in early music) the pronunciation is the same regardless of religious belief.

 

I'm very familiar with both classical and ecclesiastical pronunciations and easily read classical verse and prose. NN is correct about the phonemic stresses in classical pronunciation and it's one reason classics programs in many unis prefer and use classical v. ecclesiastical pronunciation. I and most of the people I studied with just didn't find it at all difficult to learn the stresses, etc when studying classical verse. I'm not trying to persuade you one way or the other. I think whichever pronunciation you choose will be absolutely fine. :)

[ColleenInWis]

 

 

I chose Ecclesiastical pronounciation because I suspect it's more likely that my kids will sing in Latin than they'll be Classicists.  And, I just couldn't say weenie-weedie-weechie.

 

YMMV.

 

Yes, this.  If your children are ever in a college choir, chances are they will sing lovely Latin Psalms and hymns (which aren't obviously catholic).  I would love to be a classicist, but the main chance I get to use my high school Latin now is singing along to choral music on youtube.  ;)  

 

Using LC and then Henle to teach my dc, fwiw.  The references to Mary and all aren't bothersome to this very non-catholic family.  

[Steven]

As wehave8 noted, the ecclesiastical pronunciation was common in the Middle Ages and Renaissance, and for that reason most Latin words that came into English tend towards the ecclesiastical pronunciation. If one objective of learning Latin is to recognize the Latin roots of English words, one is more likely to hear them when the Latin word is spoken with the ecclesiastical pronunciation than with the restored classical. 

 

Actually,this whole discussion really only seems to take place in the United States and England. From my experience, most European countries have a national pronunciation of Latin that derives from how Latin was spoken in that country in the Renaissance. Once when visiting Germany we met a family whose son was learning Latin in school. I asked what pronunciation they were using, classical or ecclesiastical. They had no idea what I was talking about. 

 

Ecclesiastical pronunciation is really the Italianate accent, since that is what Pope Pius X recommended as the standard for usage in the Catholic Church in 1912. 

[Clear Creek]

I guess if I could find an ecclesiastical pronunciation program that was not Catholic (which probably doesn't make sense), being we (personally) do not say prayers to Mary, etc., then I might consider it. I don't know much about all the programs out there and I don't want to offend anyone.  Just trying to understand it all! :)

 

This is the first solid reason I've heard for choosing one over the other.  It is definitely food for thought!  Thanks!

 

Pam

 

The Latin programs from Memoria Press are not Catholic and teach the ecclesiastical pronounciation.  The prayers that the children memorize in Prima Latin and Latina Christiana are pretty generic ones that are deemed acceptable by a variety of denominations of Christianity, including Catholic and Protestant; memorization is supposed to be the focus, not doctrine (Catholic or otherwise).  The prayers learned are the Lord's Prayer, the Table Blessing, The Sanctus, and the Doxology.