Well, "not what I expected" is a fairly accurate summation

[8filltheheart]

I'll start off by saying it was most definitely worth a day in the car, but unfortunately it was not at all what we anticipated. To sum it up in a few words......there is absolutely NO WAY that he will attend there. So, just knowing that this is not even an option is at least a positive in that one school is definitely eliminated off his list. But still, I was never so shocked by attitudes and answers as I was by today's meetings.

First, the dept is small. Only an avg of 10 students per yr. We met with both the dean of the dept as well as the undergraduate advisor (at first with both together and later just with the undergrad advisor). While together, ds asked the question about where their undergrads have gone on to graduate school. THEY COULD NOT ANSWER. They both looked at each other and asked each other if they could think of where any students had gone. Nada. Zip. The only thing they could say is that they have a sr that is a recipient of a well known scholarship and he hopes to attend Oxford. He is the only student they ever mentioned. At all. But that is it. At other schools, they have said things like "well, David has gone to Y or Philip is now attending Z.)

Next ds asked about getting involved in research. The dean said yes. But when we were meeting alone with the undergrad advisor he said that undergrads only ever got involved in research if professors had extra time. He said that right now all of the professors were really strapped and that he didn't know if any would be willing to take on an undergrad or not. But, he did say that ds could try to find opportunities through REUs. ;)

During the meeting with both, they discussed what physics majors needed to do if they made the decision to not pursue grad school in order to employable. (They NEVER asked ds what his goals were.) When we left the dean's office and went to the lab of the undergrad advisor, he gave ds the same talk again. At this pt I decided that the trip was going to worthless unless I asked questions that I wanted answers to b/c they simply did not ask ds any questions nor gave him any opportunity to ask questions. They just kept talking. Ds is a very polite kind of kid and he was not about to interrupt them. So, I did.

It was at this pt that I asked about the undergrad research and graduate level classes. (ds did manage to squeeze a question in and asked about his research, etc and the response was incredibly dismissive.) The response about the undergrads taking grad level classes was the last straw. He said that ds needed to stop rushing through material and actually learn physics. ????? (the man never asked ds a single question and knew absolutely nothing about his educational background other than he would be arriving with credit placing him at jr level physics classes.) He said they were a school full of National Merit Scholars and kids with pages of AP exams. He said 4.0 students with high test scores were a dime a dozen and arrived in his honors physics classes not understanding anything calculus, how to apply math to real concepts, etc. He said he had kids crying b/c they didn't understand. I looked at him at that pt and interrupted his diatribe. (as a side note.....his little rant made me feel really good about the school profile I wrote for the CA!!) I told him that ds had never been taught to a test in his life. That his education had been revolved around problem-solving and defending his pov/position. I told him that ds had completed his math through AoPS (whcih of course he had never heard of) and told him that ds's math had consisted of developing proofs and not plug and chug replications.

At that pt he finally looked at ds and said, "you need to thank her." He proceeded on more discussion about the dept and he kept referring to their NMS population. When I could finally squeeze another question in, I said, "I don't know how to ask you this politely, so here it is. Do your students know how to think? Do they like to think and bounce theories and ideas off of each other? Will he be able to find a cohort of peers?"

His response told us everything we needed to know. His response was that it was a large campus and that there were definitely elite students to be found. Directly quoting here, he said, "Especially amg the pre-med and pharmacy students. They tend to all be top notch students. The engineering dept, especially mechanical, had some incredibly strong students." Notice what he didn't mention????? He never mentioned the physics dept!!

So.....there ya go. It was nothing like ds and I envisioned. He left there deflated b/c he was hoping for so much more. (as was I) I am glad I interrupted and asked the questions. (I hated playing the role of pushy mom, though. I really normally would never have stepped in and asked the questions instead ds. But, jeepers, the fact that they didn't know what any of their undergrad graduates are doing is definitely reflected in how they approached this meeting. They never engaged ds asking his goals, interests, questions. They simply informed and lectured. Symptoms of the same problem!!)

But, I did love it from one perspective. I know our homeschool absolutely has the correct educational philosophy/approach. My kids may not be AP scholars b/c they don't have boatloads of AP exams. But, by golly, my kids know how to think!!!!

[G5052]

It sounds like it was worthwhile, even if it was on the negative column in terms of your experience.

 

Small departments aren't bad.  You are right though to ask the hard questions.

 

Different STEM field, but mine graduated about 10-15 a year, all were snapped up immediately by top-name employers and graduate schools. Most went out of state after graduation, which shows that the reputation of the program was good. I went right to a job and did graduate school part-time at an "upper middle" school with no problems at all.  Friends went to the various "top 10" schools in that field without any problems.  We had an active student organization and area where we did homework. And yes, there were technical jobs available for undergraduates.  Some were better than others.  Most also did summer jobs and co-ops.  Also no problem doing that.  All in a small department!

 

 

[regentrude]

I am speechless. Unbelievable! Especially if it is such a small department, they should know what their students are doing! And professors never ever have "extra time", they have to make time. And the remark about stopping rushing and actually learning physics is extremely condescending. I wonder how they behave to their own students if that is how they court promising prospective ones.

 

I am sorry it was such a disappointment, but I sure am glad you went and found out before.

 

[Laura in CA]

Wow. Thanks for the report. Obviously disappointing, but as you say, definitely worth the trip! Better to find out now than further along in the application process, or -- heaven forbid -- during your son's first semester of college!

 

I know it's easy for me to say, but -- with his strong background -- I can't imagine your son NOT having several top-notch options once admissions decisions are made ... and it's obvious that he'll best be served by aiming as high as he can.

 

My 16yo son, by the way (I think you know this), is taking calculus-based physics at a four-year college this year and is appalled at the level. The instructor even told him, apologetically, that he has to aim his lectures at the middle of a decidedly low-performing group of 80 students (sounds like high school!). I've even done something I never thought I'd do -- given my son permission to skip a physics lecture or two, and leave early from some others, to attend his speech-and-debate class (he has gotten the physics professor's OK) ...

My husband and I will do everything we can so that our son can attend a school that will have a cohort of his peers (such as your son experienced at his summer camp). It makes such a difference. Yes, financial aid will play a big part in where my son ends up attending, and we need to juggle the needs of siblings ... but my husband was a "big fish in a small pond" for undergraduate (physics!) and does not wish his son to experience the same fate if he can help it. Yes, he graduated debt-free, and yes, he went to an awesome graduate school and -- to his relief -- kept up with his classmates who had attended "cool" colleges ... so there are worse fates ... I guess we'll all see the options more clearly in a few months!

 

ETA: I canNOT believe they didn't know where any students went on to graduate school. Unbelievable!

 

[Teachin'Mine]

I'm sure you've already researched this, but this list might not be bad to work off of.

 

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-science-schools/physics-rankings

 

 

[8filltheheart]

I am speechless. Unbelievable! Especially if it is such a small department, they should know what their students are doing! And professors never ever have "extra time", they have to make time. And the remark about stopping rushing and actually learning physics is extremely condescending. I wonder how they behave to their own students if that is how they court promising prospective ones.

 

I am sorry it was such a disappointment, but I sure am glad you went and found out before.

 

It is so funny just how different people have responded. This guy was so obnoxious and condescending. It really makes me appreciate the school we went to where the dean said to ds as we left, "we'll see you if you don't go to Cal Tech." That school could name where every single student was.......whether in industry or grad school. They even told us a story about a young man who didn't get into his first choice grad school bc he was a physics and math double major and his math major GPA was higher than his physics and the grad school told him that they didn't see his real commitment was to physics. I am now looking at that day in a totally different perspective!!

 

Eta: I should have told him that ds made a 100 on his last mechanics exam and he knows the two kids sitting near him made 60s. :p I am under no illusion that ds is being challenged, but he is learning the material!!!!

 

My husband and I will do everything we can so that our son can attend a school that will have a cohort of his peers (such as your son experienced at his summer camp). It makes such a difference. Yes, financial aid will play a big part in where my son ends up attending, and we need to juggle the needs of siblings ...

This is exactly why I am so stressed about this whole thing. :( We still have 7 kids completely dependent on us. There really is a limit on what we can do. Maybe we'll win the lottery one day!!

[Sunshine State Sue]

It's interesting how a school that looks good on paper can be such of a bad fit in person.  I'm glad you won't have to spend any more time on this college.

 

I'm sure you already know this, but just in case, I have been able to find post graduate statistics at a number of colleges.  Maybe it's mostly been small liberal arts colleges though?  Anyway, it might be worth some research or a call to other colleges your ds is interested in to find out if they have any published statistics similar to this or this.

 

Good luck!

[Vida Winter]

Good thing you went to visit! At least you know not to waste any more time with this one. It is hard to believe they didn't know what their students were doing -- did they not care?  Keep looking, there are good programs out there. I like to think things happen for a reason. There is a better school waiting to meet your son.

[Kathy in Richmond]

Wow, 8, I was SO hoping for a different kind of report about your visit today!

 

Did they ever show you the research labs? Did they not introduce you to any of their students? I guess that the small number of majors explains the lack of elective courses in their curriculum.

 

But, yeah, I wouldn't send him to a department where the undergrad adviser has NO clue about what his recent graduates are doing now.

 

Loved the comment about REUs...guess they pass the buck to other colleges' summer programs for research.

 

:grouphug:  Sorry it wasn't what he was looking for :-(

[Wildcat]

Wow, I'm sorry it didn't work out. I can't believe they didn't know where kids went to grad school---- esp in a small dept!

[creekland]

I think I know why the dept is small...

 

Good thing you did your research!

 

I hope finances work out at other/better schools...

[Jane in NC]

Wow.

 

Small departments can cultivate students. I am thinking about the son of one of our boardie friends who traveled internationally to assist his professor with a research project after his first year of college;  he then presented at a conference as a sophomore.  There are situations when not having grad students on campus is an advantage in that undergrads are utilized as assistants. 

 

I think the key here is finding a department, large or small, that allows its students to blossom. 

 

I hate to say this but the faculty at this university that you visited must be second rate.  Their attitudes are beyond my comprehension!

 

[Luckymama]

:eek:

 

I am speechless.

[JennW in SoCal]

If nothing else you have a good story tell in years to come. 

 

He said that ds needed to stop rushing through material and actually learn physics. ????? 

 

And this quote in particular might well become part of the family lexicon once your ds starts flying in an excellent physics department, or starts taking grad courses within a year or two.   :D

[flyingiguana]

 

It was at this pt that I asked about the undergrad research and graduate level classes. (ds did manage to squeeze a question in and asked about his research, etc and the response was incredibly dismissive.) The response about the undergrads taking grad level classes was the last straw. He said that ds needed to stop rushing through material and actually learn physics. ????? (the man never asked ds a single question and knew absolutely nothing about his educational background other than he would be arriving with credit placing him at jr level physics classes.) He said they were a school full of National Merit Scholars and kids with pages of AP exams. He said 4.0 students with high test scores were a dime a dozen and arrived in his honors physics classes not understanding anything calculus, how to apply math to real concepts, etc. He said he had kids crying b/c they didn't understand.

 

To be fair, he probably was reporting his experiences truthfully.  There are a lot of 4.0 gpa kids with lots of high AP scores that place them into jr level physics who can't do calculus and don't understand the physics.  This is, unfortunately, pretty common.  High school gpas don't always measure much.  Neither do standardized test scores.  And the AP classes tend to teach to the test instead of to understanding.  If I were in his position, I'd be wary of placing a student into junior level classes on the basis of AP tests (however, if it's actual college classes your son has, that's a different story -- although even there, there are problems of classes not really teaching much)

 

That said, though, he might have kept an open mind about this individual student.  There's always the exception.

 

But even if he'd got that right, the lack of undergrad research is an issue if that's what your son wants to do.  REU's can be great, but they're often limited to a single summer per REU, so there's not much chance to get into something in depth.

 

Our department gets about 10 students a year, but they're all involved in research and just about all of them do REU's too.  And the faculty know where each and every one of them ended up.  Small isn't bad.

 

As far as placement from AP tests, our department will do it, but it doesn't always go so well. 

 

Placement out of the freshman classes based on dual enrollment college courses goes much better.  However, as most of our students come from right around here, most of them who do dual enrollment tend to do it at colleges close by.  And we pretty much know what the success rate is from those colleges (it's generally good).  I would not be surprised, however, if there are colleges out there teaching "physics" that aren't really getting at the meat of the subject.  If I were placing a kid who'd gone to an unknown college, I'd also be a bit wary.

 

[flyingiguana]

I'm sure you've already researched this, but this list might not be bad to work off of.

 

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-science-schools/physics-rankings

 

Are those grad school rankings?  If so, they may not be much help in figuring out a good undergrad school.

 

A highly ranked grad school may be devoting most of its research effort to the grad students.  The undergrads may not be able to get much more than a dishwasher position.

 

The are schools that don't follow that model, but you can't tell much from the rankings whether that's the case.

 

And rankings in general tend to be a pretty poor indication of quality.  They're mostly based on hearsay reputation.

 

There are a lot of great schools for physics out there that would never even make it into these rankings -- schools whose students get good jobs, perform great research, go on to top notch grad schools, who may even be in the running for a Nobel prize...

 

I wouldn't worry about rankings.  I'd try to pick out a place where your student feels they're going to learn a lot and be challenged.  Where the faculty show a real desire to be helpful.  You're not going to learn that from a ranking.

[Teachin'Mine]

Yes those are grad school rankings.  And you're absolutely right that they may not be the best for determining undergrad programs, but I don't know of any rankings for those.  Also considering that he'll likely be finished with the undergrad material and moving onto grad courses while in his four years, it's probably not a bad place to get ideas.   Reputation is considered in the rankings, but it is based on more than that.   Basically, I'm just saying that her son is a top student and should really be looking at top physics programs.  As was said, hopefully the finances will work out, and I'm guessing it will  whether through very generous financial aid requirements or through merit aid.   Any good physics program would be wanting to do whatever they can to get him on board.   What they experienced at the visit is beyond words.

[8filltheheart]

To be fair, he probably was reporting his experiences truthfully.  There are a lot of 4.0 gpa kids with lots of high AP scores that place them into jr level physics who can't do calculus and don't understand the physics.  This is, unfortunately, pretty common.  High school gpas don't always measure much.  Neither do standardized test scores.  And the AP classes tend to teach to the test instead of to understanding.  If I were in his position, I'd be wary of placing a student into junior level classes on the basis of AP tests (however, if it's actual college classes your son has, that's a different story -- although even there, there are problems of classes not really teaching much)

 

That said, though, he might have kept an open mind about this individual student.  There's always the exception.

 

But even if he'd got that right, the lack of undergrad research is an issue if that's what your son wants to do.  REU's can be great, but they're often limited to a single summer per REU, so there's not much chance to get into something in depth.

 

Our department gets about 10 students a year, but they're all involved in research and just about all of them do REU's too.  And the faculty know where each and every one of them ended up.  Small isn't bad.

 

As far as placement from AP tests, our department will do it, but it doesn't always go so well. 

 

Placement out of the freshman classes based on dual enrollment college courses goes much better.  However, as most of our students come from right around here, most of them who do dual enrollment tend to do it at colleges close by.  And we pretty much know what the success rate is from those colleges (it's generally good).  I would not be surprised, however, if there are colleges out there teaching "physics" that aren't really getting at the meat of the subject.  If I were placing a kid who'd gone to an unknown college, I'd also be a bit wary.

 

 

Here is the problem with the above.   First, he never asked ds a single question.   Ds's credits are not from AP exams nor are they from CCs.   They are from universities and both universities would not be "unknown" to this school/professor.    I don't know how anyone could place into jr level physics major status just from AP exams anyway.    Ds is just not a typical student.  ;)

 

 

After thinking about this more, I am going to say something I never would have thought I would be saying.   Ds would be far better off simply continuing to attend the local university!!!   The professors here love him and have invited him to not only join research projects but have even gotten funding to take him on a research trip to Kitt Peak.  (he didn't end up getting to go b/c the university denied him permission to travel bc he is a minor)   They are willing to spend time with him answering his questions on material that they aren't covering in class.   (when I asked about that yesterday, his response was to go get books to read.  I don't mind that as a possible answer, but there was no indication that professors would even be open to a student wanting that sort of engagement.)   I have a feeling that here he could get professors to work with him on designing independent courses for credit.    

 

 

[Brenda in MA]

After thinking about this more, I am going to say something I never would have thought I would be saying.   Ds would be far better off simply continuing to attend the local university!!!   The professors here love him and have invited him to not only join research projects but have even gotten funding to take him on a research trip to Kitt Peak.  (he didn't end up getting to go b/c the university denied him permission to travel bc he is a minor)   They are willing to spend time with him answering his questions on material that they aren't covering in class.   (when I asked about that yesterday, his response was to go get books to read.  I don't mind that as a possible answer, but there was no indication that professors would even be open to a student wanting that sort of engagement.)   I have a feeling that here he could get professors to work with him on designing independent courses for credit.

Sounds like he may have found his safety school, which is a good thing. Sorry the visit didn't go as you'd hoped, but at least you know which school to avoid. I'm praying for him to wind up at the best fit school for him at a price you can afford.

 

Brenda

[Julie in MN]

I can't see anywhere that you named the college? 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I can't see anywhere that you named the college?

Yes, please share.

[G5052]

HeAfter thinking about this more, I am going to say something I never would have thought I would be saying.   Ds would be far better off simply continuing to attend the local university!!!   The professors here love him and have invited him to not only join research projects but have even gotten funding to take him on a research trip to Kitt Peak.  (he didn't end up getting to go b/c the university denied him permission to travel bc he is a minor)   They are willing to spend time with him answering his questions on material that they aren't covering in class.   (when I asked about that yesterday, his response was to go get books to read.  I don't mind that as a possible answer, but there was no indication that professors would even be open to a student wanting that sort of engagement.)   I have a feeling that here he could get professors to work with him on designing independent courses for credit.    

 

Sounds like a good plan.  Sometimes going with what you know when it is GOOD is better than striking out farther to a situation that may surprise you.

 

I transferred from a liberal arts school to state technical school, and I have no regrets at all.  Yes, it was a cheap school (I needed that!), but my education was top-notch.  Afterwards I went right into a staff research position with attached $ for graduate school with no barriers at all.  Some of my undergraduate classes were harder than those in graduate school.

[dirty ethel rackham]

I can't see anywhere that you named the college? 

 

Yes, please share.  I have a budding physics major in the middle of his college search and I want to know which school to eliminate.

 

[8filltheheart]

Yes, please share. I have a budding physics major in the middle of his college search and I want to know which school to eliminate.

I PMed you.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

On a side note, my BIL earned his physics degrees several years ago. He took the route of doing additional humanities courses. So his undergraduate is a BS in Physics with a minor (or second major - I forget which) in political science.

 

He went on to Washington University for his MS and PhD, taught for a year at a private college in Ohio and now works on this.  Even more impressive, he once explained neutrinos well enough that I actually understood what they were - for about 30 minutes.

[Trilliums]

Sorry to hear it was such a disappointment. 

OK, for me, this really underscores the importance of visiting schools and scheduling time with specific departments.

 

Why was this school considered a better in state option than the school where your son has already been taking college classes?

 

I am curious because my son will be similar situation by the end of next year.  He is a junior now and in physics 2 at our big state U and he plans to continue with math and physics classes senior year.  Based on his experience in his class (mostly attitudes displayed by other students) he is leaning away from attending this U for undergrad. 

 

I don't know how to find a potential good *match* school--something between ultra selective privates and huge state U that still falls into an affordable range.

 

 

[8filltheheart]

Sorry to hear it was such a disappointment. 

OK, for me, this really underscores the importance of visiting schools and scheduling time with specific departments.

 

Why was this school considered a better in state option than the school where your son has already been taking college classes?

 

I am curious because my son will be similar situation by the end of next year.  He is a junior now and in physics 2 at our big state U and he plans to continue with math and physics classes senior year.  Based on his experience in his class (mostly attitudes displayed by other students) he is leaning away from attending this U for undergrad. 

 

I don't know how to find a potential good *match* school--something between ultra selective privates and huge state U that still falls into an affordable range.

The university's physics dept is very small and does not have a graduate program, only undergrad.   It really isn't a good fit for ds, but the undergrad program itself seems to be far superior to the other university's precisely bc ALL of the undergrad physics majors are involved in the research on campus.   (even though there isn't a grad program, there is a lot of research???   I honestly don't understand a whole lot here!!!)  Plus, the professors are activate participants in research going on at facilities around the country which is why ds was invited on the trip to Kitt Peak.    But, the school here really doesn't have course offerings that will meet our ds's needs.

 

Ds has applied to a wide range of schools, everything from extremely selective to competitive to in-state (which for our ds and his stats were no brainers that he would be accepted with scholarship offers which is why he thought they would be good back ups.   We are now planning a visit to the other big flagship to see how it pans out.  It certainly can't be any worse!!)   There are several other state schools that offer in-state tuition scholarships based on his stats, but once you factor in housing, transportation expenses, etc, they really aren't any more affordable than some of the private options if he is awarded the aid that we think he should qualify for.....they just won't be as cheap as some of the other options were.

[Trilliums]

Ah, that makes sense.  Kind of funny because just a couple of weeks ago we realized that ds would be wanting an undergrad college that offers graduate level classes which eliminates LACs close to home.  You'd think this would have dawned on us all sooner.  :laugh:

 

Hope the next visit goes better!

[Teachin'Mine]

I'm also going "Ah, that makes sense."   lol   Helps to have the background info.  :001_smile:     I think that the more specific the student's needs are, the harder it is to find schools which are safeties and still meet those needs.   We haven't found one yet, and probably aren't likely to either.  We're hoping and praying that matches and reaches work out.

[3XBlessed]

Thanks for sharing your experience.  My 10th grade son is seriously considering majoring in physics.  He already works hard at it, but to him physics is not work, it is fun.  This gives me a better idea of what to watch out for as we begin our college search.  Will you please share which college this is? Private message if your prefer?