Bad experience at Cub Scouts camping trip?

[catalavaino]

Hi, everyone.  I've been lurking for a couple of years, but rarely post.  Something happened this weekend on a Cub Scout camping trip that has left me so disturbed I'm having trouble sleeping, but when I sit down and think about it, I think I'm overreacting.  I would appreciate any input from fellow Cub Scout parents, especially if you were ever in or had knowledge of den/pack leadership.

 

Our fall campout was this weekend, and my six year old is a brand new Tiger Cub.  Pack leadership changed this year, and the new Cubmaster is kind, good with kids, and seems to really enjoy the position.  He is, however, rarely around.  His wife has been ill (like hospitalized ill) and so he's missed the last few service projects (let's be honest: so has nearly every other family), and was not at this weekend's campout.  Several weeks ago, I told him we would be able to do only Friday or Saturday and not both, as we have family in town this weekend.  He told me that most of the action happens Saturday night. 

 

We show up Saturday morning, weed for a few hours in the park as part of our service project, and then sit around waiting.  The kids start playing, a bit roughly, I thought, but all in good fun, but with very little supervision.  I watched my two (I had our three year old son there, as well), and after a few warnings to respect each other and to respect each other's property, let them run around with the other boys.  

 

As far as leadership, we had one of the Tiger leaders (who left within an hour of our arrival), the Wolf den leader (who left that evening), and the pack treasurer.  I'm familiar with each of these people, and trust them to be a good role model, and to be fair and objective with the kids.  At the end of the service project, the Bear den leader joined us, along with her son and her husband.  Instead of helping with the service project, they set up their campsite, something we waited to do in order to participate in the project.  My husband and I kind of exchanged looks, but said nothing.  Just a difference in priorities, but no biggie.  

 

After the weeding is completed, we go back and start setting up our tent.  The kids (every child there) ran around and checked out each other's tent.  I hear the Bear den leader's husband yell at my 3 year old:  "STOP! STOP! STOP!" in a tone of voice that made every adult look up.  My young son runs to me, startled.  I find out that he ran into the man's tent a couple of times, something that is absolutely not acceptable, and we have a talk.  He sits with us for a bit, before I let him go play, and he gives the man's tent a wide berth the rest of the time.  There are a couple of younger siblings playing with the bigger kids, and I get that younger kids can be really annoying if you have an older scout.  The campout should mainly be used for scouts, not for little hangers-on.  I am bothered by the harsh tone of the man's voice, but feel like I'm overreacting, as my son was clearly in the wrong.  When we are introduced later, I apologized for the incident, and he tells me with a smile:  "Oh, I took care of that real quick."  I'm trying to be objective here, and stick to facts, but I have to say that I was bothered by the smile and by the vehemence of the delivery.

 

Anyway, everybody leaves but two families, and this man's family.  His wife, the Bear den leader, has been left in charge.  as she is the only one who is BALOO/OWL trained.  We have done zero activities at this point, other than weeding.  She tells me that they used to do activities, but they don't anymore.  It starts to get dark and the kids are playing, again really roughly, but my kids are tough so I say nothing.  The same man is slurring his words and barely standing up.  He starts telling me how every year he's in a confrontation, and in every case, he seems right (like one year when one family left a fire in the grill and went on a walk).  He also takes his kid off the path with a machete, and hacks down a couple of saplings.  My husband, who did scouts for years, said that used to not be allowed.  Then this man gives his Bear cub a pocketknife, makes sure he knows how to open and close it, and tells him to go play with the other scouts.

 

This scout has some anger issues, and is a bully to the younger kids, so when I see him wave that pocketknife near my Tiger Cub, I call my kid back and tell him to stay away from the kid with the knife.  Meanwhile, this man is talking to me, wasted, and there is no mistaking the alcohol on his breath.  Now, I am not a teetotaller by any means, and respect a person's right to drink or not drink, but we were told no alcohol on the trip, and the ostensible leader's husband is getting so drunk he can barely stand up.  He drank in private, disappearing every once in a while, and drinking out of a styrofoam cup from the gas station.  He tells me the same story several times, about how he's not a yuppie like his sister is, and then I excuse myself and we all go to bed. 

 

My husband and I talk that night about the alcohol, and about how the bullying, the harsh tone with my three year old, the machete, the pocketknife, and the drinking all add up to be something we don't want to be part of.  We decide we will never participate in an activity where this man's wife is the only leader again, but disagree about whether or not to report anything.  We are new, don't want to make waves, and are unsure whether any of this is honestly that big of a deal.

 

The next morning, we are packing up and my kids and this man's child are playing, kind of rough.  My Tiger Cub, who is entirely in the wrong, hits this kid harder than he meant to, and as he is apologizing, this man comes over to my son and dresses him down:  "No!  You don't get to do that to my kid!  Get over here and face me!"  My son has hit this kid, and he knows he is wrong, but has not been addressed like this in his life.  Again, it's not really the words, but the delivery; it was meant to intimidate and humiliate.  This man was, frankly, a bully.  I get up, tell the man I'll address the issue,and my kid, stunned, humiliated, and knowing he had done something wrong, screams and throws a glow stick on the ground.  The man leans over my son and shouts:  "Pick that up now!  Pick it up or you're not going to like it." 

 

My husband picks up my son, who's now hysterical.  I'm telling my son that no matter what happened, he needs to acknowledge that he was in the wrong by hitting this kid, even if he was playing.  My husband, a pretty reasonable man, wants to go tell this man that his reaction was entirely inappropriate, and that if he has an issue with my son again, he should go through the den leader, the cub leader, or through one of us.  I beg my husband not to confront him, as I just want to leave.  I am not sure if there would be an even bigger confrontation if my husband says this.  Again, my kid was wrong and needed some correction, and I don't want to teach him that disobedience is okay if we don't like how the adult handles the situation.  I am so shaken that my husband agrees.  We say goodbye, the man shakes my husband's hand, and everybody knows how upset we are, but nobody's actually said anything.

 

We leave and we talk all day about what we should have done.  I know for a fact that I will never allow this man near my children without our protection again.  We've talked about changing packs, as the other two families seemed undisturbed by any of this, and maybe we're not a match with the culture of this particular troop.  I've searched online for similar complaints, but found nothing, and in fact, found out that it's pretty common for the dads to have a few beers after the kids go to bed.  Not a big deal to me, as long as everybody acts like adults and looks out for the best interests of the kids.

 

Please help me understand if I'm overreacting, if I'm not, if I should change packs, or report anything.  Can I transfer our registration and activity fees to another pack, even?  What would you do in my situation?  I feel like people will think, "Oh, they homeschool; they must be overprotective."  But, truly, I try to be objective.  I think I have two pretty good kids, but they're no angels, and they do need instruction, correction, etc.  They're kids.  I realize this is a long story, and I'm grateful for any advice, wise words, etc.  

 

 

[Cera]

Tigers are first grade right?  

 

I don't think you're overreacting at all.  I absolutely wouldn't tolerate that kind of behavior around my kids let alone toward my kids.  The adults in scouting are supposed to be setting an example for your child and that is not the example you want him to have.  I would speak to someone in a position of authority so that they were aware of the issue (though it sounds like they already are and choose to overlook it?) and then move my child to another pack with leadership that I could trust.

[FLDebbie]

If you don't feel comfortable or safe, then by all means transfer packs.  You can pay a small fee ($10 perhaps?) to the district to transfer, but you might need to pay that new pack's dues again.  (The pack dues are separate from the district ones.)  My sons are both in cub scouts and my husband is the cub master.  While there certainly are some personality issues, there's nothing like what you described in our pack. 

[regentrude]

I am not involved in scouts, but I think you are definitely not overreacting. The alcohol alone would be enough - a *drunk* adult on a scout camping trip? Absolutely not OK. That would bother me actually more than the fact that he was harsh; everybody can get irritated or have a bad day or be annoyed by kids. But getting drunk - nope.

 

ETA: I did not see a problem with him being angry about the 3 y/o going in his tent. Little kids should be supervised.

[Freckles]

I agree with being upset with majority of this man's behavior, but I wouldn't be upset about him telling your 3 year old to stop coming into his tent. Are small children supposed to be at these camp outs?

[Aras]

You are not overreacting. That man's behavior was inexcusable at a Scouting event. 

 

My family has been in cub scouts for 3 years at 3 different packs (we move a lot because of the military). We have always been active in the pack, either as parent volunteers and as assistant Den Leader. We have been in 2 great packs and one awful pack. We tried to stick it out at the awful one and change things from the inside. It did not change and it wasn't worth the heartache and frustration for my son and my husband.

 

If you have another pack nearby that you can transfer to I would do that. The transfer fee is only $1. 

[catalavaino]

Thank you, everyone, for the responses.  Re-reading my post, I can tell how hysterical I sound, and I can tell I'm not doing a great job separating emotions from facts.  I absolutely agree with the three year old being wrong to go into the tent, and with my six year old being wrong to hit the other child.  Both of these issues needed to be stopped and dealt with, so I appreciate the perspective here.  He had every reason to correct both of them.  

 

My instinct is to look for another pack, so I'm glad to see that many people would do the same.  My husband just came home for lunch and he said he was going to tell the cub scout master about the drinking, and about how we weren't comfortable with that, and that this is why we want to change packs.  This feels somehow dishonest to me, but like the best course at the same time.  My husband asked me if we would have reported the drinking had none of the rest of it happened, and yes, probably we would have, although we tend to be a pretty live and let live family.  It just seems irresponsible not to report it when we're talking about six to ten year olds.  But yes, I do feel a stronger need to let somebody know that something isn't right because of the rest of the business.  

 

Again, thank you guys so much.  I have learned so much from this board, and I respect your opinions.  

 

[T'smom]

You are not overreacting. Yes, your kid was in the wrong, but the man was also in the wrong. And he's supposed to be an adult. There were several things you mentioned that would make me change packs, but if someone screamed at my kid to pick something up or he wouldn't like what happened.....oh my. The man who did that would not like what happened.

[Harriet Vane]

I would switch packs. The issues I see here:

 

--Drinking on a campout is inappropriate. Period. Doubly so if he was visibly drunk. The man was in a supervisory position over young children--drinking is absolutely out of the question.

 

--No child should be carrying a knife unless he has earned his Totin Chip.

 

--Any child who uses a knife inappropriately should have it confiscated.

 

--It is inappropriate for this man to attempt to discipline YOUR child when you are standing right there, disciplining your child. When your child was in the tent, you were not right there, and the man "only" yelled, so I don't see that as something you can fight (though I would argue that he certainly could have made a better choice on handling this!!!). However, you were there for the hitting incident, you asserted yourself as the parent, and he overrode your authority. That is inappropriate.

 

--It is also inappropriate for the man to threaten a 3-year-old child in the manner you are describing. Doubly so because you were standing right there, handling your child yourself.

 

I would write a letter, but I would also leave the pack. This man will not change, and you will never, ever be able to send your kid on a campout with him. It's not worth it. Just find a new pack.

[In the Rain]

Wow! I agree with all of the red flags Harriet Vane mentioned. I would change packs.

[marbel]

The drinking alone would have us leave the camping trip that night, and leave the pack.  There's no reason for someone to be drinking.

 

As for the yelling "stop" at the child in the tent:  I wouldn't think too much about that.  My husband has a big deep voice, and he can sound really angry even if he is not.  Kids shouldn't be running in and out of other peoples' tents - we don't allow shoes or playing in our tent at all - and I can imagine my husband yelling loudly to be heard and sounding scary mad. 

 

But there is enough other trouble without that!

[FriedClams]

I am a somewhat former Scouter. I was a Cubmaster, Den Leader, Camp Director, Wood Badge grad, blah, blah....

 

I would not walk from that Pack, I would RUN!!!! Fast. Without regret. There was so much in you story that screams WRONG. Your gut is right. Leave. Don't feel you need to explain. Protect your kids.

 

FWIW: Cubs is a FAMILY scouting time. Your 3 year old, while he needs to be safe and monitored by you, should have been made to feel welcome. Yes - your bad for letting him get in the tent - but you corrected him and handled it. The guy was out of control.  Drinking - an absolute NO. I have NEVER seen or heard of drinking in my 4-5 years in scouting. (Jokes, sometimes...and I don't drink at all and some of the jokes are funny...) But drinking - NEVER. Knives - for kids when earned through training, and with proper supervision. This scenario is a HUGE safety NO for me. Sounds also like trained leadership was sketchy - another serious, very serious - NO for me. That no other adults were around says A LOT about the Pack. The Dad yelling at your son in the morning - BAD. No. Time to leave. Forever.

 

(Though, I will say, in our Pack your son hitting another kid, for whatever reason, would not be allowed. We had NO rough play. Lots of play, yes. Sticks, sure. Being boys, I'm 120% for it. But absolutely no bullying and no hitting. Ever. He'd be chatting with me as a Cubmaster about heading home if it happened again. BUT - I think the tone of the Pack and the leniency of the "leader" there really sets the pace for the boys as to how far they can push safe play.)

 

Honestly, reread your post and it sounds like a training scenario we had at BALOO that was a made up joke about a horrible Pack and camp out! Be free. Run away. Not all Packs are like this, really. You should feel welcome and comforatable and safe with your Pack - so please find a new one!

[OneStepAtATime]

I would switch packs. The issues I see here:

 

--Drinking on a campout is inappropriate. Period. Doubly so if he was visibly drunk. The man was in a supervisory position over young children--drinking is absolutely out of the question.

 

--No child should be carrying a knife unless he has earned his Totin Chip.

 

--Any child who uses a knife inappropriately should have it confiscated.

 

--It is inappropriate for this man to attempt to discipline YOUR child when you are standing right there, disciplining your child. When your child was in the tent, you were not right there, and the man "only" yelled, so I don't see that as something you can fight (though I would argue that he certainly could have made a better choice on handling this!!!). However, you were there for the hitting incident, you asserted yourself as the parent, and he overrode your authority. That is inappropriate.

 

--It is also inappropriate for the man to threaten a 3-year-old child in the manner you are describing. Doubly so because you were standing right there, handling your child yourself.

 

I would write a letter, but I would also leave the pack. This man will not change, and you will never, ever be able to send your kid on a campout with him. It's not worth it. Just find a new pack.

Absolutely leave!! ...but also write a letter so there is some form of written record and report this.  Someone could easily get seriously hurt in this scenario and it needs to be addressed. 

 

And there are ways of setting the tone, enforcing appropriate behavior for the whole pack, reviewing rules, etc. BEFORE things get out of hand.  There is also a positive way of discussing and disciplining that are proactive and set a good example and then there is just venting frustration and showing off as the big man.  He was not using any leadership skills in screaming at your son to pick up anything and overwriting your authority.

 

You are right to be concerned.  Get out.  

[justasque]

Eagle scout mom here - 

I agree with everyone else -

This entire situation needs to be reported.  ANY adult should NEVER use alcohol at a Scouting activity.  EVER.  
To keep other kids safe, leadership needs to know this happened.

AND - If there's another troop in your area, I'd check it out.  Talk to some parents of older Scouts - chances are there's a great troop nearby.  

[ErinE]

I would leave the pack, but I would write a letter. It should be addressed to the district, cc-ing the cub master and pack commitee chair. This is not something I would address within the Pack as drinking on a sponsored scout activity is a big problem.

 

In your letter, I would mention only the drinking and the knife safety. The packs I've worked with only allowed the kids with knife chips on their person to carry knives and even then, an adult leader was always supervising. I would say nothing about your youngest son. It's a more ambiguous situation and the drinking is enough for the district to get involved.

[Cheriwe]

Definitely transfer packs. This was totally unacceptable on many levels.

Also, like others have said, write letters to the cubmaster and charter organization. I would even cc the BSA council.  They need to know that this is how one of their packs is acting.  It sounds like the campout was understaffed by pack leaders, ran poorly and completely out of control. 

[Mrs Mungo]

I am not involved in scouts, but I think you are definitely not overreacting. The alcohol alone would be enough - a *drunk* adult on a scout camping trip? Absolutely not OK. That would bother me actually more than the fact that he was harsh; everybody can get irritated or have a bad day or be annoyed by kids. But getting drunk - nope.

 

ETA: I did not see a problem with him being angry about the 3 y/o going in his tent. Little kids should be supervised.

 

 

Yes, transfer but DO report!

 

 

I would leave the pack, but I would write a letter. It should be addressed to the district, cc-ing the cub master and pack commitee chair. This is not something I would address within the Pack as drinking on a sponsored scout activity is a big problem.

 

In your letter, I would mention only the drinking and the knife safety. The packs I've worked with only allowed the kids with knife chips on their person to carry knives and even then, an adult leader was always supervising. I would say nothing about your youngest son. It's a more ambiguous situation and the drinking is enough for the district to get involved.

 

I agree with both of these things.

[...................]

Report THEN transfer.  

[ktgrok]

That's awful. Find another pack. Yes, some people drank after the kids were in bed at our campouts, but a beer or two at most, and NO ONE got drunk, or acted mean to other people's kids. 

[linders]

Transfer. Now.

 

I'm a pack Committee Chair, and there are so many red flags here. Leadership in and out, unengaged, not consistently present. Harsh tone with a scout that is not dealt with (this is a problem with the adult, not the scout.) Too much unscheduled time, too little fun-with-a-purpose activities (e.g., hikes, relays, outdoor exploration activities). Alcohol?!? If we had so much as a whiff at a campout, that person would be asked to pack and leave. Now.

 

I'm so sorry. We just had a campout with 62 people, and it was not remotely like this.

[catalavaino]

It made me feel so much better just to post this.  I took my boys out to run errands this afternoon, and am returning home and reading these posts.  While I was out, I realized how the long listing of every detail is petty and unnecessary, and that whether or not I agree with how the discipline was handled, it was handled, as it needed to be, right or wrong. The important thing is that we're going to be looking for a new pack.

 

I will definitely let the cub scout master know about the drinking and the knife, because the rest could be chalked up to personality differences perhaps.  The specific information about how easy it is to transfer puts my mind at ease.  Like a lot of us, we're doing this for social reasons, and if this aspect worries me, then it's not doing us a lot of good.  The advice you guys have given me has helped me separate what seems important for the scout master to know, and talking this out, here and with my husband, lets me know that I'm not overreacting on at least part of this.

[ErinE]

That's awful. Find another pack. Yes, some people drank after the kids were in bed at our campouts, but a beer or two at most, and NO ONE got drunk, or acted mean to other people's kids.

FYI, drinking is not allowed at youth scouting activities.

 

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/healthandsafety/gss/gss04.aspx

[Alessandra]

That pack is not fixable in your ds's cub lifetime, imo. As others have said, get out and don't look back. Sure kids get a bit unruly sometimes, but that pack is way out of control. For yourself, take the online Youth Protection Training and look at the online Guide to Safe Scouting. You will probably realize that you are not overreacting at all.

[Alessandra]

Sorry, double post

[mom2boys030507]

It made me feel so much better just to post this.  I took my boys out to run errands this afternoon, and am returning home and reading these posts.  While I was out, I realized how the long listing of every detail is petty and unnecessary, and that whether or not I agree with how the discipline was handled, it was handled, as it needed to be, right or wrong. The important thing is that we're going to be looking for a new pack.

 

I will definitely let the cub scout master know about the drinking and the knife, because the rest could be chalked up to personality differences perhaps.  The specific information about how easy it is to transfer puts my mind at ease.  Like a lot of us, we're doing this for social reasons, and if this aspect worries me, then it's not doing us a lot of good.  The advice you guys have given me has helped me separate what seems important for the scout master to know, and talking this out, here and with my husband, lets me know that I'm not overreacting on at least part of this.

[/quote

 

Please also report to the district. Pack leadership might turn a blind. Eye and there is no reason for another scout to experience anything like this.

 

Mom to a Tiger, Bear, and second year Weeblos. Married to an Eagle Scout who is very involved in our pack leadership.

 

Scouting is very looked forward to innour house and camp trips are even better.

 

Sorry this has happened at the start ofnyour scouting journey

[wormbuy]

Definitely take the online Youth Protection, you just have to register as a user then watch the videos and answer questions along the way, it will only take about half an hour and will prepare you to write a well-informed letter.

 

You can visit nearby dens without any formal transfer, once you find a good one they can help with whatever paperwork. I am sorry this happened to your Tiger.

[JessReplanted]

We would not continue to be a part of that group. :(

[catalavaino]

Without making excuses for my son, I feel like I should clarify the hitting part of the story.  He didn't hit their child with his hand, but with a glow stick as part of a light saber battle that had been happening since the night before (minus, of course, when everybody slept).  It was accidental in the sense that he didn't mean to hurt the other child, but it was not accidental in the sense that he was pretending to parry/thrust/what have you, and he shouldn't have been roughhousing like this.  I don't want to take the focus off the fact that he was wrong and needed to be disciplined, but it wasn't a fist fight that broke out unexpectedly or something.  The day before, I had tried to get all the boys to calm down and was told that I was too strict and that boys will be boys.

 

I don't want to teach my kid that it's okay to talk back to an adult if you don't like how the adult tells you something, but I did think that it was an overreaction on this man's part.  I do think that the advice to just go with my instinct here and investigate other packs is sound, and when I saw that so many other people agreed with this and I wasn't being overprotective and silly, I felt pretty relieved.  

[kiwik]

Run.

 

Even without all the issues you have concerns about the camp sounds like a poorly organised waste of time.

 

I also disagree with the comments about hitting the other child. It was an accident occurring during a mutual activity. If the other child had accidentally hit yours and then apologised would you have thought it was such a big deal? It is no different than if they had bumped into each other playing soccer. And really shouldn't the leaders be keeping the children occupied to prevent over excited rough play.

 

Personally I think yelling at a 3 year old for running in your tent when all the kids are running round excitedly looking at each others tents is inappropriate too. Why not just smile and remind him running in other people's tents isn't allowed. The child is 3 for heavens sake.

[Soror]

It boggles my mind that they went through any of the training at all, there are so many things wrong with what they did, common sense alone should have lead them to behave better. I would seriously question local scout leadership and not just what is in this Pack to be honest. I would leave and also look for contact information for the unit leadership and detail them the highlights of what went wrong, especially the drinking. I don't think it is against the rules to be disorganized but it of course reflects poorly on the Scouts. I would mention that you thought that the leader was threatening your child.

[Alessandra]

Take what your ds did out of the equation and try to re-imagine the day. The pack was awful, period, and would have been just as bad had your ds been an angel. Cub Scouts does not require kids to be perfect!

 

I have been at plenty of events when boys get wild. A good leader knows how to talk to then and get them involved in another activity.

[ktgrok]

FYI, drinking is not allowed at youth scouting activities.

 

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/healthandsafety/gss/gss04.aspx

 

I should have clarified that WE were never drinking, it was a few people, and it was kept at their campsite, after kids were in bed, and done discreetly. I am not condoning it at all, just saying that even then, it was nothing like she described. 

[Kathryn]

I agree with everyone else. Report to pack leadership AND higher up and then get out. As to what to say, the drinking and inappropriate use of the knife would be at the top of the list as absolutely not allowed in scouting (and do point out that this was by the family of the only "trained" person there). I would probably also mention that leadership was lacking. Maybe also that the boys were not given any purposeful activity but were instead encouraged in rough housing. At the bottom of the list, if mentioned at all (although I agree he was entirely inappropriate), would be the man's behavior toward your child. I don't think I'd mention at all the incident with your 3yo, but his threatening your Tiger Cub when you tried to take over the situation was inexcusable.

[Julie of KY]

Transfer now.

 

Report this to both the pack leadership and someone at the council level. If you are not sure what BSA thinks of safe scouting or if you should report, then I'd encourage you to take the free 20 min internet course - Guide to Safe Scouting. It is required of all leaders and recommended for all parents of scouts.

[Kathryn]

Also, I wanted to address the issue with your Tiger Cub and the man yelling at him and threatening him. From what you wrote, I think you focused way too much on your son's inappropriate behavior and what he needed to do. IMO, when another adult became abusive toward your child, your first priority should have turned into protecting your child from that adult, not disciplining him. There will be plenty of time for speaking to your son about his behavior once removed from the situation. I would have immediately removed my son from that man's presence in order to speak to him. While I would have addressed his behavior, I would have also let him know that he was not required to accept that kind of treatment and that if that ever happened again with someone he was to find me, his father, or another adult whom he trusted right away.

[Alessandra]

Also, I wanted to address the issue with your Tiger Cub and the man yelling at him and threatening him. From what you wrote, I think you focused way too much on your son's inappropriate behavior and what he needed to do. IMO, when another adult became abusive toward your child, your first priority should have turned into protecting your child from that adult, not disciplining him. There will be plenty of time for speaking to your son about his behavior once removed from the situation. I would have immediately removed my son from that man's presence in order to speak to him. While I would have addressed his behavior, I would have also let him know that he was not required to accept that kind of treatment and that if that ever happened again with someone he was to find me, his father, or another adult whom he trusted right away.

:iagree:

 

Not in the sense that you were wrong, but in the sense that you should not feel like the guilty one.

 

It is highly unlikely that the leader took to drink as a direct result of your ds's behavior, lol.

 

Scouting can be such a great experience -- I hope you find a pack that lives up to what scouting should be. 

[mom2scouts]

As a longtime Cub Scout leader, there are SO many problems with this!  First of all, the drunk father should have been taken home immediately. If his wife was the only BALOO trained adult and she needed to take him home, the camping trip is over NOW.  If this was at a Boy Scout camp, the Campmaster should have been notified immediately! Drinking at a Cub Scout event is NEVER allowed and no, it's not common for the dads to have a few beers after the boys go to bed. I've been involved in Scouting for over 25 years and it is not tolerated.  The Pack leadership, Chartered Organization Rep., and/or someone at Council needs to know about this. Please, please, please report this!  The machete hacking is against Leave No Trace rules and was totally inappropriate.  One of the adults should have called him out on this.  Also, the Bear should only be allowed to have a pocketknife if he has his Whittling Chip showing that he knows how to use it safely.  Sticking the knife in somebody's face is grounds for immediately losing his knife *and* his Whittling Chip.  I've been in Scout leadership long enough that I have no trouble telling adults or other people's children to stop doing something that is dangerous or obviously against Scout rules. At first I try to do it nicely, assuming they don't know better, but in that case, I would have taken the knife away.

 

Some of the things you talked about are not a big deal to me.  I can see the guy telling the 3 year old to stay out of the tent.  Muddy little kid footprints usually aren't welcome in a tent, but I doubt he needed to be so harsh.  He seemed to be a bit too proud of how quickly his harsh words worked.  The man appears to be a bully who is raising a bully.  As for rough play, that's pretty normal when you get a group of boys outside together.  A good leader (usually the Cubmaster) will plan activities like a game, hike, kite flying, knot tying, or other activity to keep the boys from getting out of hand.  It seems that nobody picked up the responsibility of doing this with the Cubmaster being absent.  I would report the incidents and then find a Cub Scout Pack with more appropriate leadership.  Cub Scouts can (and should) be a great family activity, but leadership has a huge effect on the experience!

[Alessandra]

As a longtime Cub Scout leader, there are SO many problems with this!  First of all, the drunk father should have been taken home immediately. If his wife was the only BALOO trained adult and she needed to take him home, the camping trip is over NOW.  If this was at a Boy Scout camp, the Campmaster should have been notified immediately! Drinking at a Cub Scout event is NEVER allowed and no, it's not common for the dads to have a few beers after the boys go to bed. I've been involved in Scouting for over 25 years and it is not tolerated.  The Pack leadership, Chartered Organization Rep., and/or someone at Council needs to know about this. Please, please, please report this!  The machete hacking is against Leave No Trace rules and was totally inappropriate.  One of the adults should have called him out on this.  Also, the Bear should only be allowed to have a pocketknife if he has his Whittling Chip showing that he knows how to use it safely.  Sticking the knife in somebody's face is grounds for immediately losing his knife *and* his Whittling Chip.  I've been in Scout leadership long enough that I have no trouble telling adults or other people's children to stop doing something that is dangerous or obviously against Scout rules. At first I try to do it nicely, assuming they don't know better, but in that case, I would have taken the knife away.

 

Some of the things you talked about are not a big deal to me.  I can see the guy telling the 3 year old to stay out of the tent.  Muddy little kid footprints usually aren't welcome in a tent, but I doubt he needed to be so harsh.  He seemed to be a bit too proud of how quickly his harsh words worked.  The man appears to be a bully who is raising a bully.  As for rough play, that's pretty normal when you get a group of boys outside together.  A good leader (usually the Cubmaster) will plan activities like a game, hike, kite flying, knot tying, or other activity to keep the boys from getting out of hand.  It seems that nobody picked up the responsibility of doing this with the Cubmaster being absent.  I would report the incidents and then find a Cub Scout Pack with more appropriate leadership.  Cub Scouts can (and should) be a great family activity, but leadership has a huge effect on the experience!

 

i like the way you have distinguished the completely unacceptable from the inappropriate/distasteful.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I want to respond before reading other comments. So if this is repetitive, please excuse the repetition.

 

First: The drinking at a scouting event is completely and totally a violation of BSA guidelines. Not at meetings. Not at service projects. Not at outdoor activities. Not at camping. Not by registered adult leaders or by other adults in attendance at the event. This is very clearly part of training for registered adults. The Bear Leader who was there as the BALOO trained leader should have been familiar with the no alcohol policy from Youth Protection training, the Guide to Safe Scouting and BALOO training.  I won't speculate about what might motivate her to overlook this from her husband. But I will say that I would put little confidence in her ability to plan and carry out a safe camping activity.

 

Second: It sounds like there is a serious attitude problem or anger management issue with this particular father.  The machete use was likely a violation of Leave No Trace Guidelines as well as a possible violation of campground rules. (If you were camping on private property, it might have been permitted by the owner.) I have been a registered scout leader for 10 years at both Cub Scout and Boy Scout level. I have had occasion to correct scouts who were not behaving properly. Usually this is simply a matter of calling them by name and correcting something they were doing. Sometimes (very occasionally) it was a matter of bringing them to their den leader or parent with a report of what I'd seen. There has not been a need in 10 years to yell at or angrily confront a scout.

 

I would definitely take this to the pack leadership. The people to talk to are the Cubmaster and the Pack Committee Chair.  You can call and ask to chat with them over coffee or you can send an email to them.  The personal attitude of the father (in my mind) is a secondary issue to the drinking. The tone and attitude might be disputed, but there is no way to suggest that drinking is ok under some circumstances (The idea you found online that drinking after the scouts are in bed is acceptable is completely wrong and is a clear violation of BSA policy.)

 

Give the pack leadership the chance to respond to the situation. If nothing else, I would suggest that you owe it to the rest of the families in the pack to report what you experienced. 

 

All of the other issues that might be addressed like the low attendance at the campout and the lack of planned activities come well behind the safety issue.

 

(If the pack leadership does not seem to want to deal with the situation or brush it off as "just how he is" or otherwise gives you a nod-nod-wink-wink, then I would send a letter about the situation to the Charter Organization Representative, The Unit Commissioner, The District Commisioner, and The District Executive. Then I would leave the pack.  There really isn't anything that these other people can do to make a dysfunctional unit healthy in a timeline that you would want. But you would give them the heads up that there is a problem.)

 

It is possible to transfer registration to another pack. Many packs are in their recharter process right now. If you decide to leave this pack, you may not get back pack dues, but you can transfer registration for about $1.

 

What you experienced is not at all normal. Nor is it acceptable.  I have seen adults like this occasionally in scouts. Usually it is because they are blowhards and bullies. They don't stop being blowhards and bullies just because they are at a scout event. Don't let one jerk turn you off of scouting. But don't overlook his behavior either. Do get involved in whatever pack you are in. Take the online training. Help set the tone.

 

FWIW:

10 years of being a Registered Adult in BSA, including Den Leader, Advancements Coordinator, Pack Committee Member, Pack Trainer (including Instructor for Leader Specific Training and BALOO), Troop Committee Chair, Troop Committee Member, Mom of Eagle, Life and 2nd Class scouts.

ETA: The above sounds like I'm bragging. Not my intention. I've encountered too many adults in scouting who like to tell me "the way it is" while they spout off something that is just half-baked. Usually when I go through the handbooks from scouting, I find the real principle or guideline that we're supposed to be following. The guy you described in the OP strikes me as the sort who thinks he knows better than everyone else.

 

As other people have suggested, it is a really great idea for both you and your dh to set up accounts at Scouting.org and do the online training modules (look for E-Learning). At a minimum you should do the Youth Protection Training. But I'd also recommend This Is Scouting, Leader Position Specific-Tiger Cub, Leader Position Specific - Pack Committee, Den Leader Fast Start, and Weather Hazards (under the General Tab). Safe Swim Defense is another good one to have.

[catalavaino]

Thank you for all of the advice!  We went to the Renaissance Festival in our state today, and we were gone all day, so I'm coming home to read these posts.  I do agree that nearly everybody involved with this pack is nice, but that there seems to be a real vacuum of leadership and that that might be causing the issues.  If this is the case, then it seems as if this might be easily resolved later down the road, and if we had not gone on this camping trip, then everything might have been fine.  We had never met this person before, and we may never meet him again.  He didn't come to any of the pack meetings thus far, nor to any of the other outings.  

 

I just feel very uncomfortable at this point, and would feel uncomfortable at the spring camp out, and every pack-wide event going forward, even if we never encounter a similar situation again.  I know that we are hoping to make friends, maybe both child and adult, through scouting, and that we're hoping to learn the interesting, practical skills my husband learned while he was a scout.  I researched online and found two other packs within a five-mile radius, and we're going to see if we can visit.  

 

 

 

[chelsmm]

Wow. That's pretty much all I can say!

 

I hope you find another pack. We just joined cub scouts this year and also had a camping trip. I am so upset for you! My little guy would have been traumatized by some stranger dad yelling like that in his face. They are six! Drinking while at scouting events is totally not ok. And neither is yelling at and threatening a child. :(

 

Good luck finding a new pack. Hopefully you will find a better match!

[foxbridgeacademy]

You are NOT over reacting, I would have seriously lost my temper, you have the moral high ground, you should use it.  He threatened your child! He was drunk, allowed his son to carry a knife without supervision at a camp out for kids.  He's just going to keep behaving badly unless YOU stand up to him.  Another benefit of reporting him is you will feel better about the situation, you took control and did what you could to make things right.  

[WinsomeCreek]

I haven't read all responses, but I'm another den leader who would advise you to report and switch packs. The lack of leadership, alcohol use and unsupervised knife play are dangerous. These boys can think up enough ways to hurt themselves on their own. We have gobs of younger siblings join us. Adults help supervise and discipline each other's young kids, but never in the manner you described. I think an adult behaving that way to a young child would get eaten alive by the moms in my pack!

[Guest NewKidOnTheBlock]

I am new to this forum, and ironically, just joined cub scouts yesterday, so I missed the annual camping trip that was held over the weekend. I have a Bear cub and a Tiger cub. Since I don't know much, as I am new, I will only comment that, upon meeting my scout leader yesterday, he took one look at my 3 year old daughter, smiled and said, "I want you to understand that this is a family organization, and your entire family is welcomed on our trips and outings". That was nice, and as many people with cub-aged kids have younger siblings, it makes sense. 

If that is the mantra, that is the mantra. The organization is all about character, and a big part of that is learning how to talk to one another. My 3 year old would have been petrified, and would not have recovered easily from being yelled out by a stranger in such a manner. And she's not a lightweight!  It's just too harsh. So no, I do not think you are over-reacting.  Good luck with your resolution.