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Help for a secular parent explaining gods and God


debi21
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It feels like I wandered into a Social Group.

 

:lol:

I'm only here because I love the word MINIONS and am hoping it will pop up again. :D

 

As for the original topic, I don't personally think there is any compelling reason to go into detailed explanations about religion to a 4 year-old, but I have never been in a situation where I have heard preschoolers discussing religious matters.

 

At that age, I'd keep any explanations very short and simple, with very few details. I can't imagine that most 4yo children are going to care about specifics.

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Looking for advice. My son is 4.5 and both his parents are atheists. So far he has only been exposed to the word god in African folk tales. But 2 of his 3 most frequent play date friends are devout Mormons. It's going to come up soon.

 

I feel like I didn't do an adequate job explaining the African gods and worry more about the Christian God. I want to be neutral at least. I think believing in God can be very comforting and wouldn't mind if he did, although I'm not fond of the LDS religion mainly due to feminist issues and that's the primary religion here.

 

Does anybody have any advice or recommended resources/books? I am also interested in how to explain the difference between African/Greek gods as myths vs the Christian God, giving the latter more respect or weight even though I don't believe.

 

I realize this can be a controversial topic here. I hope I don't offend anyone with my question. I want to have respect for others' beliefs and teach that to my kids at least.

 

For a little more info, My family background is Jewish, and after spending some time interested in Eastern religions around age 18, I also spent a few years in my early 20's trying to learn to believe in God, but it just didn't happen. If there were either a UU church or a Jewish congregation closer, I might give those a try with the kids, but they are both an hour away.

 

 

I think you and their father should be honest with them as to your own beliefs (or absence thereof), while also respectful of other beliefs.

 

Since you have a Jewish background, I'd suggest making the trip to see a Jewish service at some point even if it is far away, and if UU is potentially appealing, I'd suggest doing that too.  You don't need to go every Saturday or Sunday, but it would be easier to explain what a religious service is by going to one (or several).   Since many people will regard people with Jewish backgrounds to be ethnically Jewish even if they are not religious, that might be another reason to at least see one service at some point.   I would not encourage participation in something that makes you uncomfortable even if it is the dominant religion around you.   I would be respectful of that religion, but equal to being respectful also for other religions, including belief in the African gods.  

 

I personally think that having some sense of what people mean by God (which is not always the same thing to everyone even in the same denomination), even if you don't believe, is important because it will come up in literature and history, and is something that is important to people and has shaped history also, but what a 4 year old is ready for as an explanation would be limited in my experience.  I also, personally, think that teaching tolerance for different religious views (of which I take atheism to be one view)  is very important.

 

As a homeschooler my son has a friend who is from a devout atheist family, and a friend from a devout Eastern Orthodox (Christian that is) family--the reality is that most play they do involves things like riding bikes, playing games and so on, and religion is hardly ever a topic of conversation, except that the Orthodox family is often in fast times, or gone at church.  A worse problem was during public school there was a religious pull-out for special instruction by the pastor of the local mega-church, and it was uncomfortable not to be a part of that.  

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 A worse problem was during public school there was a religious pull-out for special instruction by the pastor of the local mega-church, and it was uncomfortable not to be a part of that.  

 

They did that when I was growing up, every Wednesday morning.  The kids who didn't attend got to sit in the detention room and do extra homework.  :rolleyes:

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First of all, thank you for asking and being open-minded.  Explaining Christianity can be very difficult for secular people due to the varied denominations out there and a plethora of them calling themselves Christian.  But, how do you know if they are really Christian?  If you stick to the core, essential Christian doctrines you will give your child the correct definition of a Christian while explaining who God is.

 

  1. Deity of Christ - Jesus is God in flesh; He is the proper object of faith; He is both God and man; He is one person in the Trinity (one God existing in 3 persons - Father, Son, Holy Spirit - they are all coeternal and of the same nature = monotheism (there is only one God in all existence)
  2. Salvation by Grace - Salvation is not universal resurrection.  Rather, it is the saving from God's righteous judgment.  Furthermore, salvation, which is the forgiveness of sins is accomplished by faith alone.
  3. The Resurrection of Christ - "And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith," (1 Cor. 15:14).  "And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins," (1 Cor. 15:17).
  4. The Gospel - "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!  As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!" (Gal. 1:8-9, NIV).
  5. Monotheism - There is only one God (Exodus 20:3; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8)

These are the 5 critical core doctrines declared by the Scriptures to be essential to be Christian.  If someone does not endorse and believe in the above, they are not Christian despite assertions otherwise.  A non-regenerate person will deny one or more of these essential doctrines.   Please note that there are other derivative doctrines of scripture that become necessary also, the Trinity being one. For more information on the above, see http://carm.org/essential-doctrines-of-christianity (the above information was taken from this site.)

 

You will need to parse this down to your child's level, but I hope this helps.

 

I can't even begin to fathom how this relates to the question.

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I don't teach my kids respect for religions in general, I teach them that all religions have good to neutral to bad beliefs. As they got older we talked about what makes a belief fall along that continuum, according to our values. For example, the belief that there is a god is neutral. The belief that this god wants us to be kind to each other is good (even if the god part is unnecessary). The belief that this god wants men and women to behave differently based on their gender and not their interests and talents is bad.

 

My kids are teens now, and we talk about what "respecting someone else's religion" means. It's complicated, because the expectation can be that because it is a religious belief it should be less subject to criticism. You can get a lot of blowback if you criticize, because religious beliefs are privileged in our society.

 

So what I'm saying, I guess, is that you don't have to teach even a younger child to respect a religion, and personally I don't use that term. You can teach a kid though, that all religions have some beliefs that are good and/or neutral, and that criticizing the particular beliefs that aren't tends to make people mad and hurt relationships, (so it needs to be done carefully and wisely when it is done).

 

Oh, and if at all possible, I would move if I did not have even a very small community of people who at least supported my values, if not shared them. This can be found among believers, so belief isn't the deciding factor (for me anyway).

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 If you stick to the core, essential Christian doctrines you will give your child the correct definition of a Christian while explaining who God is.

 

  1. Salvation by Grace - Salvation is not universal resurrection.  Rather, it is the saving from God's righteous judgment.  Furthermore, salvation, which is the forgiveness of sins is accomplished by faith alone.

 

OK, I am no theologian, but this jumped out at me. Poster is ignoring the majority of Christians. Here are two wikis. Forgive me for not taking the time to write a treatise myself. Oh, btw, the other side is salvation by good works as well as faith.

 

 

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also historically known as the doctrine of justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from CatholicismOrthodox Christianity, and some in the Restoration Movement.

 

2 Largest denominations in the world

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Let's get back to helpful suggestions for the OP. Arguing in favor for one's particular point of view of Christianity is not what she is looking for.

 

 

I agree!

 

I do think for her son to have heard of Jesus is probably a good idea in the circumstances so that if someone does mention something, he does not look/sound/feel completely at a loss.

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Let's get back to helpful suggestions for the OP. Arguing in favor for one's particular point of view of Christianity is not what she is looking for.

Good point!

 

Since op's son is young, my suggestion would be picture books. Some of our favorite authors are Jane Ray, Brian Wildsmith, Tomie dePaola for Judaism/Christianity.

 

IMO, a good place to begin is with creation stories, because every culture has them and it is fun to compare. Jane Ray's, The Story of the Creation, is lovely -- mainly pictures, very little text. We have also liked pictures books on creation stories from around the world (sorry, no recommendations, as I had to return them to library).

 

I am harping on creation, because, if dc can see how many approaches there are to creation, it can be a good starting point to realizing that there are many approaches to god/religion/ethical systems.

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When my kids were that age and asking questions, we went all over the map with easy religious stories. My kids understood that humans have been asking about life and death ever since we looked up at the stars and down at dead things. It's just part of being human. And we taught them that gods and goddesses were people's ways of answering those questions that science hadn't answered at those times.

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Well if the OP told her son this, it would really isolate him. As mentioned, his playmates are LDS...you are describing doctrines that they don't even teach/practice. How on earth was this supposed to be helpful, and NOT pot-stirring-drama making...

 

 

First of all, thank you for asking and being open-minded. Explaining Christianity can be very difficult for secular people due to the varied denominations out there and a plethora of them calling themselves Christian. But, how do you know if they are really Christian? If you stick to the core, essential Christian doctrines you will give your child the correct definition of a Christian while explaining who God is.

 

  • Deity of Christ - Jesus is God in flesh; He is the proper object of faith; He is both God and man; He is one person in the Trinity (one God existing in 3 persons - Father, Son, Holy Spirit - they are all coeternal and of the same nature = monotheism (there is only one God in all existence)
  • Salvation by Grace - Salvation is not universal resurrection. Rather, it is the saving from God's righteous judgment. Furthermore, salvation, which is the forgiveness of sins is accomplished by faith alone.
  • The Resurrection of Christ - "And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith," (1 Cor. 15:14). "And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins," (1 Cor. 15:17).
  • The Gospel - "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!" (Gal. 1:8-9, NIV).
  • Monotheism - There is only one God (Exodus 20:3; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8)
These are the 5 critical core doctrines declared by the Scriptures to be essential to be Christian. If someone does not endorse and believe in the above, they are not Christian despite assertions otherwise. A non-regenerate person will deny one or more of these essential doctrines. Please note that there are other derivative doctrines of scripture that become necessary also, the Trinity being one. For more information on the above, see http://carm.org/essential-doctrines-of-christianity (the above information was taken from this site.)

 

You will need to parse this down to your child's level, but I hope this helps.

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First of all, thank you for asking and being open-minded. Explaining Christianity can be very difficult for secular people due to the varied denominations out there and a plethora of them calling themselves Christian. But, how do you know if they are really Christian? If you stick to the core, essential Christian doctrines you will give your child the correct definition of a Christian while explaining who God is.

 

  • Deity of Christ - Jesus is God in flesh; He is the proper object of faith; He is both God and man; He is one person in the Trinity (one God existing in 3 persons - Father, Son, Holy Spirit - they are all coeternal and of the same nature = monotheism (there is only one God in all existence)
  • Salvation by Grace - Salvation is not universal resurrection. Rather, it is the saving from God's righteous judgment. Furthermore, salvation, which is the forgiveness of sins is accomplished by faith alone.
  • The Resurrection of Christ - "And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith," (1 Cor. 15:14). "And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins," (1 Cor. 15:17).
  • The Gospel - "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!" (Gal. 1:8-9, NIV).
  • Monotheism - There is only one God (Exodus 20:3; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8)
These are the 5 critical core doctrines declared by the Scriptures to be essential to be Christian. If someone does not endorse and believe in the above, they are not Christian despite assertions otherwise. A non-regenerate person will deny one or more of these essential doctrines. Please note that there are other derivative doctrines of scripture that become necessary also, the Trinity being one. For more information on the above, see http://carm.org/essential-doctrines-of-christianity (the above information was taken from this site.)

 

You will need to parse this down to your child's level, but I hope this helps.

This is a level of detail that is overwhelmingly irrelevant to an athiest family. I teach the basics, and the geo-political history that is shaped by religion and religious differences, but I've never felt the need to teach my athiest son how to determine if someone is or isn't a Christian by the metrics of various sects. How do you fancy this could possibly be relevant to a child who at age 3-4, on hearing the basic beliefs of Christianity laid out for them said, firmly and clearly, "that can not possibly be true"?
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Trying to move back to what may be helpful for a 4 year old:

 

There may be a good DK type book called something like What do you believe? with pictures coming from various places and forms of worship that might be suited for a 4 year old.   Maybe.   I just heard of it, never personally saw it.

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Trying to move back to what may be helpful for a 4 year old:

 

There may be a good DK type book called something like What do you believe? with pictures coming from various places and forms of worship that might be suited for a 4 year old. Maybe. I just heard of it, never personally saw it.

I know there is a DK Eyewitness or Usborne type book called simply "Religion". It has a good overview of the largest religions. I read that to my 4 year old sometimes. ETA- here it is:

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/075669079X/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1383520036&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX110_SY165_QL70

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Trying to move back to what may be helpful for a 4 year old:

 

There may be a good DK type book called something like What do you believe? with pictures coming from various places and forms of worship that might be suited for a 4 year old. Maybe. I just heard of it, never personally saw it.

I have the book. It's What I Believe, Alan Brown. Excellent beginner book, doesn't favor one belief system over bother. It's old, so. Think it should be available used.

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Trying to move back to what may be helpful for a 4 year old:

 

There may be a good DK type book called something like What do you believe? with pictures coming from various places and forms of worship that might be suited for a 4 year old. Maybe. I just heard of it, never personally saw it.

I think you are referencing this one. It is quite good. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0756672287?ie=UTF8&force-full-site=1&ref_=aw_bottom_links

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2 questions:

 

1) Is OP still here?

 

2) What would be the LDS view toward a) being atheist, (hunh. apparently trying to put a b and parenthesis gives an emoticon) b. being Jewish either by practice or by ancestry?

I don't know if the OP is still around, but I'm a Mormon and can answer your second question. Personally I don't care if anyone is atheist- it's their business. It makes no difference to me what my friends believe. Unless I know differently, I don't assume that anyone I meet believes in God. There are Mormons who are more conservative than I am though and would be less comfortable with an atheist neighbor than a neighbor who believed in God.

 

One of our religious tenets is to allow everyone to worship in whatever manner they choose. I think this extends to not worshipping if a person chooses.

 

Mormons would generally be indifferent or interested in someone being religiously or culturally Jewish. A few would get excited about it, but it wouldn't make much difference to most Mormons. I would be surprised if it were seen as a negative thing by a Mormon.

 

I love it when that sunglasses emoticon appears when you weren't expecting it. :)

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First, to add to the ways to help the OP, here is a list of books explaining various religious beliefs and practices. Some might be appropriate for your child now, and some are for older children. It's only one list, and as I was searching I found that some lists lean heavily in one direction or another. I would suggest a search though. If you have a decent library and some time, you could even browse the appropriate section in the children's section.

 

 

Explaining Christianity can be very difficult for secular people due to the varied denominations out there and a plethora of them calling themselves Christian.  But, how do you know if they are really Christian?

No, it's pretty easy actually because secular people don't really care about the various denominations and who is or isn't a Real Christian.

 

 

your motivations feel very disingenuous to me.

It smells a little like proselytizing, which is against board rules.

 

 

I'm willing to call them all Christians. :) It's certainly not something worth my losing sleep over.

Yep. It's only Christians who fight over who does and doesn't belong in their club.

 

 

the expectation can be that because it is a religious belief it should be less subject to criticism. You can get a lot of blowback if you criticize, because religious beliefs are privileged in our society.

 

So what I'm saying, I guess, is that you don't have to teach even a younger child to respect a religion, and personally I don't use that term.

I agree. In our family we don't see religious beliefs as being above criticism and questioning.
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I think one can criticize and question something while still giving respect.

 

One can also, contrariwise, follow something without question or criticism, and yet not respect it.  

 

A child, for example, can question or criticize a parent, perhaps come, in the case of religion to hold beliefs different from those of the parent--and yet still respect the parent.

 

Perhaps a confusion in this would be that respect can be used in the sense of having admiration for someone or something, or in the sense of having due regard for someone or something, and also in the sense of not harming, someone or something.

 

It is in the latter 2 senses that I think the atheist 4 year old should be taught respect for various religious beliefs, just as I would hope people would be showing respect for the 4 year old.  

 

One is also more likely to be able to have a meaningful conversation, or friendship and playmates in the case of the 4 year old, where there is regard and respect, than in an atmosphere of disparagement.

 

I think we have even seen some of that in this thread.

 

 

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I think one can criticize and question something while still giving respect.

 

One can also, contrariwise, follow something without question or criticism, and yet not respect it.  

 

A child, for example, can question or criticize a parent, perhaps come, in the case of religion to hold beliefs different from those of the parent--and yet still respect the parent.

 

Perhaps a confusion in this would be that respect can be used in the sense of having admiration for someone or something, or in the sense of having due regard for someone or something, and also in the sense of not harming, someone or something.

 

It is in the latter 2 senses that I think the atheist 4 year old should be taught respect for various religious beliefs, just as I would hope people would be showing respect for the 4 year old.  

 

One is also more likely to be able to have a meaningful conversation, or friendship and playmates in the case of the 4 year old, where there is regard and respect, than in an atmosphere of disparagement.

 

I think we have even seen some of that in this thread.

 

My DS7, a few days ago, after mentioning yet again that his best friend believes in God. "It's really important to respect other people's God even if you don't believe in gods yourself! Because their beliefs are really, really important to them and it would hurt their feelings a lot if you were rude about their God."

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My DS7, a few days ago, after mentioning yet again that his best friend believes in God. "It's really important to respect other people's God even if you don't believe in gods yourself! Because their beliefs are really, really important to them and it would hurt their feelings a lot if you were rude about their God."

:)

 

I tell the girls that it doesn't matter what people believe, it matters whether they are good people who respect your right to your beliefs just as you should respect theirs. This is different than respecting the belief itself.

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It's hard for adults to know how best to disagree with and critique religious beliefs, let alone kids. Part of the problem is everyone defines "respect" differently. I think most can agree that it is disrespectful to be rude and to use personal attacks, but beyond that. . . it's a minefield. It feels very personal to many religious people, and even a simple statement of disagreement can feel disrespectful, even though it isn't.

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It's hard for adults to know how best to disagree with and critique religious beliefs, let alone kids. Part of the problem is everyone defines "respect" differently. I think most can agree that it is disrespectful to be rude and to use personal attacks, but beyond that. . . it's a minefield. It feels very personal to many religious people, and even a simple statement of disagreement can feel disrespectful, even though it isn't.

:)

 

With only a couple exceptions I don't debate (as opposed to discuss) religion with my friends of faith, just as I don't debate abortion with my anti-choice friends. It's just not enjoyable unless you're debating someone with great confidence and a sense of fun to match. But neither will I hide or deny my beliefs or lack thereof. If my being atheist makes someone uncomfortable because they see it as a directed at them or their faith, that's their problem, and I'm not really interested in spending more time than necessary with people uncomfortable with me.

 

Now, the OP is in a tricky position as she fears social isolation... So in that sense, "their" problem becomes her problem. I wish I had some amazingly fantastic advice, but I don't.

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I agree that it might be worth the drive once or twice a month to the UU or Jewish congregations. Maybe you could combine it with some shopping?

I don't understand why something like that would be necessary. :confused: It seems like complete overkill to me.

 

Why would anyone haul their kids around to services for a bunch of different religions? It would be different if the OP was genuinely interested in getting involved in a particular religion, but to go to a church or synagogue just to show your kids what you don't believe seems like a complete waste of time. It could also be incredibly awkward if the priest, rabbi, or minister decided to welcome the "new family."

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Many atheists go to UU churches. A lot of UU churches are humanitarian based rather than religious based. At UU children learn about all types of religion but are not told that any particular religion is the right one.

 

As for a pp suggesting Jewish congregations I believe it's because the OP said she is from a Jewish family. Many Jews are not religious but still consider themselves Jews. 

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If there were either a UU church or a Jewish congregation closer, I might give those a try with the kids, but they are both an hour away.

 

OP said this, and I think it might be a good idea.  UU sounds very promising, as far as teaching about different religions.  It could be just what she is looking for, plus give her dc and family a place where they are not outsiders.  A community, perhaps friends, at least a couple times a month.  Might be good.  Plus it would give them an easy answer for what church they go to.  No need to mislead anybody.

 

And combining it with shopping in a city they don't get to very often is just a perk :)  (Just trying to throw in some extra motivation here.  I know it can be a pain to drive an hour, but the benefits might outweigh the negatives.)

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I found a series of fairly short, easy books called "I am..." ("I am a Christian" "I am Muslim", "I am Jewish," "I am Hindu", etc. They briefly explain beliefs and practices from a child's point of view.

 

At 4 though, I'd probably just go with "Different families believe different things. Some believe in Gods. some believe in Santa. We believe XYZ. All religions have their good points, and we can all be friends if we want to be." I had similar discussions with my DD at that age, in our case as members of a less well known religion. We're studying religions as part of world geography now that DD is in 5th grade.

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