Preschool Drop Out? * UPDATED IN POST 1 *

[wendyroo]

I am feeling very conflicted and hope some more experienced moms can offer their perspectives...

 

My eldest son, Peter (4.5 years), is a challenging kid.  He goes to counseling to work on anger and anxiety issues and has a very hard time at home regulating his emotions and controlling his impulses - primarily hitting and kicking when scared or upset and impulsive pushing, grabbing, destructive throwing, etc.  It is very stressful for the whole family (me, DH, Peter and his 2 year old and 2 month old brothers).

 

Last school year, DH heavily lobbied for sending Peter to preschool.  DH is fully on board with homeschooling our kids, but Peter was being SUCH a pain that we were desperate to do something to help the situation and DH thought at the very least it would give me a break from Peter twice a week.  I held out for half the year and then we started Peter at preschool in February right before his fourth birthday.  The best way to describe the remainder of that year was lackluster.  He didn't like school, but he didn't dislike it.  He didn't misbehave there, but he also didn't engage with the teacher or other kids.  We did not see much change in his behavior at home.

 

This fall we decided to enroll Peter in the same program (new teacher, now 3 days a week).  Again, I don't think school is negatively affecting Peter, but I also don't think he is gaining much from it.  It is, however, adding a HUGE amount of stress to our lives.  It starts at 8:30 and even with clothes laid out, everything ready to go, etc., it still takes lots of yelling and bribing to get the three kids fed, dressed and out the door in time.  Along with preschool both the older kids also have speech therapy one day a week and that is more time we are away from home.  It feels like I am constantly pushing the kids to move faster - no time to linger over breakfast, no time to spontaneously sit down and read stories, hardly any time to play outside since we go straight from preschool or speech therapy to eating lunch to rest time to getting dinner on the table.  Rush, rush, rush.

 

My mixed feeling arise from not knowing what will best serve Peter and our whole family.  I guess that's parenting.  I think it does do him good to play with his peers and the goal is for him to observe other kids not being scared of The Hungry Caterpillar, not melting down over having their noses wiped, etc.  But, a part of me, I guess my mom instinct, says that maybe what he most needs is to be drawn in close to me.  Maybe being "sent away" to school is just too unsettling for him right now and instead he needs us to hunker down and strengthen the bonds within the family and try to start enjoying each other more.

 

DH doesn't want to pull Peter out of preschool.  He is very frustrated with Peter...almost constantly whenever they are together...and thinks that the socialization of preschool will "fix" him.  I agree that Peter's behavior is often atrocious, incomprehensibly stubborn and self sabotaging, maddeningly hostile and argumentative, etc.  I just wonder if the answer might not be staying home most of the time, tomato staking, slowing down and taking the time to help him process his emotional outbursts, lots of exercise and time outside, a more healthy diet without the crappy snacks they feed him at school, and removing the stress and over stimulation of school (he comes home almost vibrating with tension - unable to calm himself enough to eat, focus on a story, take off his shoes or wash his hands without a tantrum or get the rest/sleep he desperately needs).  But that scenario doesn't offer much peer interaction and maybe that would be detrimental...and maybe even doing all that won't lead to positive changes in his behavior...and without Peter going to school my younger sons won't get any breaks from his abuse and hysterics...

 

I'm conflicted and would love any opinions and insights you might have to offer.

 

Thanks,

Wendy

 

UPDATE:

Well, on Monday the preschoolers took a field trip to the farm.  On Monday afternoon all I heard from Peter is that he sat with the assistant teacher on the bus because he didn't want to sit with the other kids.  Monday night he elaborated that he also hung out with the assistant teacher at the farm because he didn't want to go by the animals or ride the hayride with the other kids.

 

Then this morning Peter told me that sometimes at school the other kids said they didn't want to be friends with him and that is why he hadn't wanted to sit with them on the bus.  He also stated that on the bus the teacher and assistant teacher were there and heard what the other kids said.  I'm taking this with a grain of salt since he is only 4 and is often oblivious to whether other people are paying any attention to something.  However, one of my husband's coworkers is the mother of twin boys in the class and she told my husband that her boys are reporting getting hit frequently by other kids and that they think the teacher sees what is happening, but that she doesn't do anything.

 

At pick up I hung back and asked the assistant teacher (the teacher was absent which is very common because she has a preschool age daughter in another school who is frequently sick) what she knew about the not wanting to be friends issue.  She said they had never heard any talk like that, but would be watching.  I asked what their strategy was if that issue arose and she said, "I don't know.  I guess we would tell the child to stop saying that."

 

I've told my husband that we will be having a lengthy discussion about this over the weekend and coming to a decision.  I told him I was compiling a list of positives for pulling Peter from that school and that if he wanted to keep Peter there he should have a strong list of positives for that position.

 

Thanks for listening,

Wendy

[Jean in Newcastle]

I would cross-post this on the special needs or learning challenges board.  I think they could give you some good advice.

[Dandelion]

Well, I'm the mom of a preschool drop-out.   :p

 

DS attended preschool for one year from age 4-5.  It was that terrible, stressful year at preschool that led us to homeschooling.  He had a lot of the same issues as your son - impulse control, aggression, anxiety, etc.

 

Preschool did NOTHING to solve those problems.  It just made them worse.  

 

The kinds of issues your son is dealing with are not going to be solved in that environment.  The teacher(s) are not going to be able to give him the kind of individualized attention and support he needs to learn to regulate his energy and emotions.  Until he's able to better to control his emotions and impulses, the benefit from being around peers is negligible.  It sounds like he has an incredible amount of anxiety (my son did too), so most of that peer interaction is probably lost on him at this point because he's expending so much energy just to keep himself together while at school.  Even though it sounds like things at home are frustrating and difficult, he will still be better off at home right now IMO. 

 

You say you don't think that being at school is negatively affecting Peter, but I would disagree.  From what you describe of the effort it takes to get him there - the stress, the yelling, the rushing - I would say it's having a negative impact.  Even if things at school are relatively calm, by the time he arrives there he's probably a bundle of stress.  

 

I think you have the right idea in your last paragraph: bring him home, slow things down, keep him close to you, focus on emotional regulation, provide a healthy diet and lots of exercise, etc.  That's perfect and probably exactly what he needs right now.  And just because you pull him out of school doesn't mean he won't get social interaction.  You could join a playgroup (www.meetup.com has a ton of playgroups for that age group in my area - you can check for your area by entering your zip code and typing in "playgroup" or "moms").  Or just go to a playground or indoor play place a few mornings a week and let him play with the other kids there.  That's probably plenty for now. 

 

I have been in your shoes and it's tough.  I hope you find a solution for your little guy.  :grouphug:

 

 

[Mom-ninja.]

I pulled my oldest from preschool after one week. It was not what he needed.

[ondreeuh]

I have a son who was much like you described. The key word is was. Preschool didn't help. Perfect parenting wouldn't have helped (and my as-best-as-I-can-do parenting was definitely not enough). I tried to create an environment he could be successful in, but while we managed OK at home, he could not handle the unpredictability of other kids. His irritability was chemical, and has been treated very successfully medically. I urge you to seek the help of a child psychiatrist, who may be able to help you sort out whether your son's issues are medical or psychological. If it is really not under his control, then you are just beating your head against the wall. Plus, your son is constantly getting the message that he is doing things wrong, and a negative self-image is the eventual result. I can't even tell you the relief I felt when my son woke up one day able to handle minor annoyances that would have caused a major meltdown the day before (it really was a sudden switch). He is so proud of himself too! He gets so much positive feedback now and it feeds his spirit. I ended up putting him in kindergarten with a fantastic teacher, and he has not had any aggression issues (in preschool he hit about every day).

 

This may not be something you have to slog through, hoping that he will mature out of it.

[wendyroo]

Would it be possible for your husband to be the one to get him to preschool in the morning?  That would ease up on the stress it is causing you and he would be happy that Peter was still going.

 

Unfortunately, or fortunately, my husband works an early schedule.  He leaves the house at 7am which means there is no way he could do drop off, but he gets home at 4:30 to help with before dinner chaos so that is a great benefit.

 

Wendy

[Χά�ων]

Is there an afternoon preschool class that would be an option? It would give you more time in the morning to get everyone up and dressed and out the door.

[wendyroo]

Is there an afternoon preschool class that would be an option? It would give you more time in the morning to get everyone up and dressed and out the door.

 

I actually think he needs to be napping most afternoons.  Over the summer he slept during rest time about 5 days a week.  Currently, on preschool and speech therapy days he comes home a jittery, overstimulated mess and spends rest time tossing, turning, rocking and loudly yelling/chanting in his bed even if I spend 45ish minutes reading to him beforehand to try to calm him down.  On Tuesdays, Saturdays and Sundays, however, we are home all day and if I make sure to give him ample exercise and mental stimulation in the morning he conks out for an hour and a half in the afternoon and is still ready to go to bed at 8pm.  I think his emotional issues really take a toll and he needs a lot of rest and sleep to give him time to calm down...but, those same issues make it hard for him to get that rest when he starts to overload.

 

Wendy 

[SKL]

Can you try dressing him the night before?  And have something really easy for breakfast - something they can box up and take to the car if necessary.

 

Another thing - consider making the "get ready" routine your regular morning routine.  Once it is in fact a "routine" it will get easier.

 

I agree with having your husband either dress him or drop him off in the morning.  You could also ask your older kids to bring books to read in the car so their time isn't wasted if/when you are driving.

[dirty ethel rackham]

Have you had a full workup to determine what his issues are?  He sounds very much like my middle son who had lots of sensory issues.  He was explosive and angry all the time.  I was overwhelmed at the enormity of his emotional volatility while trying homeschool an elementary-aged kid and care for a newborn.  We got OT therapy for his sensory issues and he became a different kid.  But, it meant really working his sensory stimulation exercises at home very diligently for about 6 months before we started to see success. 

 

I agree that preschool is not meeting his needs.  You can try to do a co-operative preschool with a couple of other families rather than sending him to a stressful environment and create more chaos in your home. 

[zoobie]

What does his counselor think? Have you and DH sat down together with the counselor? I'd be very concerned that all of his interactions with and overall opinion of the child are negative.

 

If he's doing well in school, I'd be hesitant to take that away completely because I think all kids, even little kids, need to feel success. If he's having fun with his friends, responding positively to the teacher... Plus if your other DC need the time, I'd work at finding ways of making the school schedule work better for you or finding a school that is a better fit for your family. 

 

Is it possible that there's another school that would be a better fit? Different snack policy, more focus on outdoors activities, different dropoff procedures? I loved our first preschool's carpool line. Pull up, teacher opens door, unbuckles kid, and away they go! Reverse at pickup. We've always done Montessori schools whose snacks were all whole foods. No crap allowed. :) If he's possibly sensitive to preservatives, dyes, etc., something as small as snack could make a huge difference. Will the school let you send in a snack for him?

 

In the mornings, what can be done to streamline? Let him sleep in his school clothes? Eat breakfast in the car? Take the other kids in their jammies? If you're stressed, he's going to feel it and get more amped up. Either to stay with the littles or take him/pick him up, whichever works better for your family. Our last preschool had an early care option which was run by the assistants. If it wasn't raining or freezing (we're in Atlanta, so feel free to laugh if you live in a more Northern area with tougher children!), the kids played outside on the playground the whole time. Your DH could drop him on the way to work. 

 

What could you do to make afterschool easier for everyone? Our school had a playground with picnic tables, and lots of people brought lunch and ate there because the kids were starving! If not that, can you have a sandwich ready for him in the car so he can go straight to rest when you get home? What else calms him down? Instead of reading to him (which seems like it could be additional stimulation), could you send him straight to his darkened room and have restful music playing? If music calms him, let him listen to headphones while eating his sandwich in the car? I'd bring my DS's lunch for him to eat in the car if we didn't picnic, and I didn't ask him any questions about school. We just listened to his favorite CD or the radio. He needed the drive time to relax (introvert like me). 

 

Is speech on the same days as preschool? That is a bunch of stimulation in one day. Can you find a therapist who will come to you? 

[kbutton]

Have you had a full workup to determine what his issues are?  He sounds very much like my middle son who had lots of sensory issues.  He was explosive and angry all the time.  I was overwhelmed at the enormity of his emotional volatility while trying homeschool an elementary-aged kid and care for a newborn.  We got OT therapy for his sensory issues and he became a different kid.  But, it meant really working his sensory stimulation exercises at home very diligently for about 6 months before we started to see success. 

 

I agree that preschool is not meeting his needs.  You can try to do a co-operative preschool with a couple of other families rather than sending him to a stressful environment and create more chaos in your home. 

 

Sounds like great advice.

 

I commented on your earlier thread if that helps with context for these comments. This part is descriptive of our experience, not really advice...Our son did reasonably well in preschool, but we did two afternoons per week, and it was a Montessori program. He was not as overstimulated as it sounds like your son is, and he gave up naps completely by 18 months (and by then, they were unusual), so sleep was not an issue. And, my next youngest child didn't come along until DS was 3.5, so I (sort of) had more time to handle him (I had other really big problems of my own in the mix instead of little kids).

 

If you have a trusted friend, family member, or sitter that could watch your son, you might consider having someone watch him when you do your other running around (they should probably come to your house so that you don't have to get him ready to go). I would try to leave him home from as many extra appointments, errands, and grocery trips as possible if he is overstimulated. However, it's unclear to me if some of these appointments are for him, so maybe you cannot do that. If the other kids need a break, maybe they are the ones to find a sitter for once in a while. I think it's also good if you can have at least one whole day per week (or a large, consistent part of every day) that you do not ever have to go anywhere. Maybe you can even create some sort of visual schedule or expectations for Peter that shows him what's going on and what he can look forward to ("if you can behave in xyz manner until after we do abc, we get to go home and stay there until suppertime. We don't have to do this again for five more sleeps").

 

I hope this is not true, but your husband doesn't sound like he's supportive in a practical way, or if he is, that he actually has a realistic grasp of the situation. You said that he is constantly frustrated with Peter and that he thinks socialization will fix him. This is unrealistic. He needs to learn what he can realistically expect from Peter, let go of any wrong expectations, and then learn some ways to work with him. And, you shouldn't have to bear the burden of teaching him how to do this, unless he is truly receptive and will take it well. Unrealistic "support" causes as many problems as it solves, and the person offering such "support" can contribute as much of a burden as the original situation (I learned this the hard way). I think you need a diagnosis, therapy, etc. Your speech therapist may be able to help you find good sources for an evaluation and/or therapy. Above all, do not use a provider that makes you feel guilty or like part of the problem. Find another one if this happens. Even if you need some hard to take advice from a therapist, they should not make you feel bad for not knowing what to do and trying your best.

[QueenCat]

What does his counselor think? Have you and DH sat down together with the counselor? I'd be very concerned that all of his interactions with and overall opinion of the child are negative.

 

If he's doing well in school, I'd be hesitant to take that away completely because I think all kids, even little kids, need to feel success. If he's having fun with his friends, responding positively to the teacher... Plus if your other DC need the time, I'd work at finding ways of making the school schedule work better for you or finding a school that is a better fit for your family. 

 

 

I'd be concerned too.......... It sounds like both parents are stressed out, as they both seem to find the child to be overwhelming, and in the OP's words a "Pain". It sounds like the whole family needs help. Having a child with autism, I understand the overwhelm but a child should not feel that his parents or siblings find him to be overwhelming or a pain; I hope the OP and dh are hiding these feelings they have from Peter. School sounds like a place where people view him positively. I would not remove him from school; I'd change other things to make getting to school easier.

[QueenCat]

I hope this is not true, but your husband doesn't sound like he's supportive in a practical way, or if he is, that he actually has a realistic grasp of the situation. You said that he is constantly frustrated with Peter and that he thinks socialization will fix him. This is unrealistic. He needs to learn what he can realistically expect from Peter, let go of any wrong expectations, and then learn some ways to work with him. And, you shouldn't have to bear the burden of teaching him how to do this, unless he is truly receptive and will take it well. Unrealistic "support" causes as many problems as it solves, and the person offering such "support" can contribute as much of a burden as the original situation (I learned this the hard way). I think you need a diagnosis, therapy, etc. Your speech therapist may be able to help you find good sources for an evaluation and/or therapy. Above all, do not use a provider that makes you feel guilty or like part of the problem. Find another one if this happens. Even if you need some hard to take advice from a therapist, they should not make you feel bad for not knowing what to do and trying your best.

 

To me, from the OP, it sounds like neither parent is realistic. Dad having a different opinion on what should happen doesn't make him unrealistic or wrong. Nor does it make Mom wrong either. The OP does say he helps when he is at home but he doesn't know what to do with Peter, but she doesn't seem to know what to do with him either. They both need help in learning how to deal with the issues Peter is having. And a full psych work up sounds imperative if it hasn't already happened.

[wendyroo]

Have you had a full workup to determine what his issues are?  He sounds very much like my middle son who had lots of sensory issues.  He was explosive and angry all the time.  I was overwhelmed at the enormity of his emotional volatility while trying homeschool an elementary-aged kid and care for a newborn.  We got OT therapy for his sensory issues and he became a different kid.  But, it meant really working his sensory stimulation exercises at home very diligently for about 6 months before we started to see success. 

 

I agree that preschool is not meeting his needs.  You can try to do a co-operative preschool with a couple of other families rather than sending him to a stressful environment and create more chaos in your home. 

 

I'm not sure what constitutes a full workup.  He was evaluated by a psychologist at the Behavioral Pediatrics unit of the children's hospital.  The evaluation lasted about 2.5 - 3 hours.  The psychologist wrote up a 5 page report which detailed the evaluation and offered the "diagnosis" of anxiety NOS, and OCD and autistic tendencies (but no true diagnosis of OCD or ASD).

 

The psychologist did ask about sensory issues, but since Peter has no issues getting his teeth brushed or his hair combed, likes playing with play dough and shaving cream, has never complained about any clothing issues or food texture issues, etc he didn't think that was a major contributor to the behavior problems.

 

Thank you for your thoughts.

Wendy

[Dandelion]

I'm not sure what constitutes a full workup.  He was evaluated by a psychologist at the Behavioral Pediatrics unit of the children's hospital.  The evaluation lasted about 2.5 - 3 hours.  The psychologist wrote up a 5 page report which detailed the evaluation and offered the "diagnosis" of anxiety NOS, and OCD and autistic tendencies (but no true diagnosis of OCD or ASD).

 

The psychologist did ask about sensory issues, but since Peter has no issues getting his teeth brushed or his hair combed, likes playing with play dough and shaving cream, has never complained about any clothing issues or food texture issues, etc he didn't think that was a major contributor to the behavior problems.

 

Thank you for your thoughts.

Wendy

 

I know you only asked for advice on whether to keep your DS in preschool (which I why I kept my previous response focused on that topic).  So feel free to disregard this post.

 

I'm curious - what are your DS's triggers?  What generally precedes his outbursts (whether verbal or physical)?  If you can pinpoint the triggers, that can go a long way in helping you create a more supportive environment for him at home and elsewhere.  

 

I've found that it's infinitely more effective to focus on reducing/eliminating triggers than it is to expect a 4 year old to learn to deal with triggers effectively.  Sure, you won't be able to eliminate all triggers.  But if you can reduce the number of triggers your child is faced with in a given day, he won't become as overloaded and will be better able to learn how to respond appropriately.  If he's constantly overwhelmed, he will be unable to focus on what you're trying to teach him.  Nothing is going to stick. The idea is to reduce the triggers as much as possible initially, until your child is coping and responding better.  Then, you can gradually allow for more.  

 

FWIW, my DS - who has/had many of the same issues your DS is dealing with - was ultimately diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome at age 7.  

[wendyroo]

I'd be concerned too.......... It sounds like both parents are stressed out, as they both seem to find the child to be overwhelming, and in the OP's words a "Pain". It sounds like the whole family needs help. Having a child with autism, I understand the overwhelm but a child should not feel that his parents or siblings find him to be overwhelming or a pain; I hope the OP and dh are hiding these feelings they have from Peter. School sounds like a place where people view him positively. I would not remove him from school; I'd change other things to make getting to school easier.

 

We are overwhelmed, I'm not denying that.  We love Peter, but a lot of days we don't like him very much.  He cries for several hours every day.  Cries because we give him the wrong color cup which he chose 5 minutes ago and was the right color cup the day before, but now when it is presented to him it is cause for hysterical sobbing.  Cries because I won't let him tear a book to shreds though I do offer scrap paper or a magazine for his tearing pleasure, but that doesn't stop the crying.  Cries because it is his younger brother's turn to choose the first book to be read - a turn that will take 5 minutes at most and yet by the time it is Peter's turn he is so distraught he can't listen to the book he chose.  Cries because Nana is not available to talk on the phone right that second.  Cries because it is foggy outside.  Cries because his nose is running.  Just cries and cries and cries all day.  It is so draining and depressing and grates on every nerve in my body.

 

I'm not sure I know what you mean in your other post by neither DH nor I being realistic.  We are trying our very hardest and we certainly have Peter's best interest at heart, but he is our oldest and although we have both read tons of parenting books espousing various theories, we are still inexperienced and just doing the best we can.  

 

I agree that our (and especially DH's) attitude toward Peter is a major issue - it can be very negative.  OTOH, sometimes Peter's behavior is so negative that responding in any other way seems ridiculous and inconsistent.  In the space of 10 minutes this morning Peter threw a ball at the computer, pushed Elliot off a stool, burst into tears over being served, not forced to eat, just served, apples (which he loves) with his breakfast, and purposefully smeared peanut butter all over his shirt when he was just asked not to and we were trying to get out the door to take him to his preschool field trip that he was ostensibly looking forward to.  To me, it seems DH harps on Peter for everything, but DH says I let too many things go - sometimes I think he is right because in the spirit of keeping anything positive I sometimes pretend not to notice when Peter does something that I would never let Elliot (who is 2 years younger) get away with.  Otherwise, though, it seems like I would constantly be disciplining Peter and I worry he would get the message that he never does anything right.

 

Please be gentle.  We're trying our best.  We have sought out help and are trying get Peter the therapy and services he needs, but they are not always easy to find or qualify for and we do have to work somewhat within a budget.  the psych evaluation alone was $600 out of pocket and that did not lead to any concrete diagnoses or suggestions for how to deal with Peter on a day to day basis.  I just want us to find a way to survive day to day and be able to enjoy Peter for who he is without constantly being at odds with each other.

 

Thank you for your thoughts,

Wendy

[wendyroo]

 

 

dp

[kbutton]

I'm not sure what constitutes a full workup.  He was evaluated by a psychologist at the Behavioral Pediatrics unit of the children's hospital.  The evaluation lasted about 2.5 - 3 hours.  The psychologist wrote up a 5 page report which detailed the evaluation and offered the "diagnosis" of anxiety NOS, and OCD and autistic tendencies (but no true diagnosis of OCD or ASD).

 

The psychologist did ask about sensory issues, but since Peter has no issues getting his teeth brushed or his hair combed, likes playing with play dough and shaving cream, has never complained about any clothing issues or food texture issues, etc he didn't think that was a major contributor to the behavior problems.

 

Thank you for your thoughts.

Wendy

 

Sounds like you had a decent workup and then were dropped like a hot potato. If you received this evaluation but no real strategies for doing something with the information, you need to knock on doors until you find someone who will give you some help and strategies. Also, my son was diagnosed Asperger's/PDD-NOS over a period of visits. We filled out many surveys (and wrote copious notes when the multiple choice answers offered to the diagnostic questions were not helpful). I think discussing our notes with the psychologist actually led to the diagnosis because the surveys were way too cut and dry to describe our son's behaviors.

 

He could still have sensory issues even without those symptoms. If so, OT could help. My son has sensory issues, and he has had only mild issues with textures and things like that. When he is on overload, he gets sensory defensive (responds to touch with a flight or fight response), flops on the floor, runs into walls (on purpose), cries, provokes arguments, etc. He shuts down entirely (even in a large group) when he's had enough (and that line varies greatly from day to day). He touches everything to see how it feels. I've seen him drape himself over a cart of glossy library books and rub his whole body on them. He'll run his finger down everything on a grocery store shelf as he walks by to sense the different textures and temperatures of the items (makes a lovely, big, embarrassing mess). He'll use me like an exoskeleton at times, which is totally irritating! He has gravitational insecurity (doesn't like his head tipped back, though totally upside down is somehow okay). More than an hour or so of TV makes him crabby, mean, and overstimulated. And if it's not educational TV, it can make him crabby after just a few minutes. He doesn't have all that many big red flags on the list of symptoms, but all the tiny little annoyances of busy places and busy activities add up to making him either wild and crazy or a big lump of inanimate flesh, which is when he starts doing all kinds of weird stuff and having meltdowns. When he was little, we went straight to meltdown land until he learned to shut down instead. The big tipoff for us was when we noticed how he responds when we lighten the load of outside stimulation (noise, too many people, too many task changes, too much information coming at him at once) while also giving him heavy lifting, pushing and pulling, deep massages, heavy blankets, etc. He could swing all day long. All of those things help him a great deal. Swimming calms him unbelievably. It's foolproof. He also needs time alone and repetitive tasks if he's on overload. We had to force him into these activities, but now (and he's much older), he can actually see how helpful these tasks are and choose them for himself. We'll sometimes nix an activity he's been looking forward to because of these signs, and although he's irate at first, he often ends up thanking us the next day for keeping him home in the quiet. You might watch to see if he seeks out certain sensory tasks, not just avoids sensations. Some kids are avoiders or seekers, and some kids take turns with both (ours does). Our son would crawl across the floor at 6 months towing a basket filled a foot high with heavy magazines. It made him very happy. I didn't know how abnormal that was until about a year and a half ago. It took some work to connect the dots since he liked some things that would make other sensory kids totally freak out. The Out of Sync child was an interesting read in this regard. Our psych told us that sensory issues and anxiety are often one and the same. We couldn't see the anxiety to address it until the sensory stuff was dialed back quite a lot.

[lea_lpz]

I can't tell you whether or not to homeschool for preschool or not. Ultimately that's your choice. I would suggest that if little Peter is not dressed and hasn't eaten when it's time to get to school you just let him miss breakfast and go in inappropriate clothes and let him explain to his teacher and classmates why he's in pjs (because with plenty if time and fair warning and instruction he chose not to get dressed.

 

Couple times should be enough for him to get it.

 

My 4 year old has to dress himself, brush his teeth, make his bed, pick up any toys and eat breakfast in a total of an hour. If he hasn't eaten by 8 am he has to wait until our 10 o'clock break to eat because we start our school at 8 sharp. If he didn't finish his chores he does that instead of getting 20 minute recess.

 

We have riding lessons 1x week at 9:30 so we leave at 9 am. A couple times (2) he dressed inappropriately and had to deal with the consequences of not getting to ride a sitting out once (decided he wanted to wear sandles despite me telling him no). Next time he wore shorts. It was not comfortable to ride in shorts. His legs hurt. Life lessons and logical consequences are often the best way to correct behavior.

 

I would consider testing to see if there is any issue for his behavior, like others have suggested and if you rule that out consider taking parenting classes and discuss a consistant form of discipline you and dh feel comfortable and use it consistently.

 

By no means are my children saints, but whenever they start to really test their limits or their behavior becomes increasingly over the top, it usually reflects that I have let actions slide and have not employed mediate correction each time correction was needed and so they've tried to see how far they can go. It's when I let the behavior slide and "walk over" this and that that I end up having it and reacting in a way I later regret (yelling or giving to harsh a punishment), but when I make sure to give consistant correction and consequences I deal with each issue every time and so I don't blow up, I stay totally neutral and I give a reasonable and logical consequence for poor behavior because I know I have to follow through with it versus blowing up, making up some whacky punishment and then saying sorry and taking it back and the child ends up getting no real consequence to their action.

[QueenCat]

We are overwhelmed, I'm not denying that.  We love Peter, but a lot of days we don't like him very much.  He cries for several hours every day.  Cries because we give him the wrong color cup which he chose 5 minutes ago and was the right color cup the day before, but now when it is presented to him it is cause for hysterical sobbing.  Cries because I won't let him tear a book to shreds though I do offer scrap paper or a magazine for his tearing pleasure, but that doesn't stop the crying.  Cries because it is his younger brother's turn to choose the first book to be read - a turn that will take 5 minutes at most and yet by the time it is Peter's turn he is so distraught he can't listen to the book he chose.  Cries because Nana is not available to talk on the phone right that second.  Cries because it is foggy outside.  Cries because his nose is running.  Just cries and cries and cries all day.  It is so draining and depressing and grates on every nerve in my body.

 

I'm not sure I know what you mean in your other post by neither DH nor I being realistic.  We are trying our very hardest and we certainly have Peter's best interest at heart, but he is our oldest and although we have both read tons of parenting books espousing various theories, we are still inexperienced and just doing the best we can.  

 

I agree that our (and especially DH's) attitude toward Peter is a major issue - it can be very negative.  OTOH, sometimes Peter's behavior is so negative that responding in any other way seems ridiculous and inconsistent.  In the space of 10 minutes this morning Peter threw a ball at the computer, pushed Elliot off a stool, burst into tears over being served, not forced to eat, just served, apples (which he loves) with his breakfast, and purposefully smeared peanut butter all over his shirt when he was just asked not to and we were trying to get out the door to take him to his preschool field trip that he was ostensibly looking forward to.  To me, it seems DH harps on Peter for everything, but DH says I let too many things go - sometimes I think he is right because in the spirit of keeping anything positive I sometimes pretend not to notice when Peter does something that I would never let Elliot (who is 2 years younger) get away with.  Otherwise, though, it seems like I would constantly be disciplining Peter and I worry he would get the message that he never does anything right.

 

Please be gentle.  We're trying our best.  We have sought out help and are trying get Peter the therapy and services he needs, but they are not always easy to find or qualify for and we do have to work somewhat within a budget.  the psych evaluation alone was $600 out of pocket and that did not lead to any concrete diagnoses or suggestions for how to deal with Peter on a day to day basis.  I just want us to find a way to survive day to day and be able to enjoy Peter for who he is without constantly being at odds with each other.

 

Thank you for your thoughts,

Wendy

 

Wendy,

As a parent of a child with autism, I do understand pretty much all of the issues you mention. However, redirection is often more effective than punishment. And sometimes, deciding that something is going to have to be okay because it meets the child's needs. What I meant about not being realistic is that it seems like your expectations for a child with obvious special needs are not realistic. I agree with you in that not everything can be a battle, and some things need to be let go for the time. I also think time at preschool gives the siblings a needed break. Even though Peter doesn't have an autism diagnosis, many of the techniques for working with a child with autism would probably help him, and all of you. No and time out are highly unlikely to change his behavior. They would for a neurotically developing child but not a child with Peter's issues.

Cathie

[dirty ethel rackham]

We are overwhelmed, I'm not denying that.  We love Peter, but a lot of days we don't like him very much.  

He cries for several hours every day.  Cries because we give him the wrong color cup which he chose 5 minutes ago and was the right color cup the day before, but now when it is presented to him it is cause for hysterical sobbing.  Cries because I won't let him tear a book to shreds though I do offer scrap paper or a magazine for his tearing pleasure, but that doesn't stop the crying.  Cries because it is his younger brother's turn to choose the first book to be read - a turn that will take 5 minutes at most and yet by the time it is Peter's turn he is so distraught he can't listen to the book he chose.  Cries because Nana is not available to talk on the phone right that second.  Cries because it is foggy outside.  Cries because his nose is running.  Just cries and cries and cries all day.  It is so draining and depressing and grates on every nerve in my body.

 

I'm not sure I know what you mean in your other post by neither DH nor I being realistic.  We are trying our very hardest and we certainly have Peter's best interest at heart, but he is our oldest and although we have both read tons of parenting books espousing various theories, we are still inexperienced and just doing the best we can.  

 

I agree that our (and especially DH's) attitude toward Peter is a major issue - it can be very negative.  OTOH, sometimes Peter's behavior is so negative that responding in any other way seems ridiculous and inconsistent.  In the space of 10 minutes this morning Peter threw a ball at the computer, pushed Elliot off a stool, burst into tears over being served, not forced to eat, just served, apples (which he loves) with his breakfast, and purposefully smeared peanut butter all over his shirt when he was just asked not to and we were trying to get out the door to take him to his preschool field trip that he was ostensibly looking forward to.  To me, it seems DH harps on Peter for everything, but DH says I let too many things go - sometimes I think he is right because in the spirit of keeping anything positive I sometimes pretend not to notice when Peter does something that I would never let Elliot (who is 2 years younger) get away with.  Otherwise, though, it seems like I would constantly be disciplining Peter and I worry he would get the message that he never does anything right.

 

Please be gentle.  We're trying our best.  We have sought out help and are trying get Peter the therapy and services he needs, but they are not always easy to find or qualify for and we do have to work somewhat within a budget.  the psych evaluation alone was $600 out of pocket and that did not lead to any concrete diagnoses or suggestions for how to deal with Peter on a day to day basis.  I just want us to find a way to survive day to day and be able to enjoy Peter for who he is without constantly being at odds with each other.

 

Thank you for your thoughts,

Wendy

:grouphug: I understand how overwhelming this all can be.  I walked in very similar shoes with my middle son at that age.  What you are describing does sound sensory related. 

 

Ds cried for hours like that as well.  45 minutes over the fact that his dad went to work, another 45 minutes over the fact that we didn't live in a green house anymore, a screaming fit because I cut his toast into squares instead of triangles, that I didn't use the green plate, that I put the dinosaurs in the wrong order ... either t-rex wasn't 4th or I had the plant eaters mixed with the meat eaters.  If his Duplo creation fell apart, he would seek out his older brother (in another room) and wail on him.  He would fall asleep crying, wake up hours later and continue the tantrum.  I felt very much like you did - I loved my son desperately, but I wanted to escape.  I was exhausted and overwhelmed.  I had to call my husband every day at noon for a pep talk to get through the next 4 hours until he would be home.  Dh was so much more understanding, but he wasn't home all day, living with it on very little sleep (I had a newborn at the time.) 

 

 I tried to get help through the local school as they do provide services to homeschoolers.  They would only work on perceived expressive and receptive language delays, and just tell me that the other behaviors were because I "coddled him."  I did a lot of reading on the subject and asking around here.  After listening to other people's experiences with neuropsych testing, I was concerned that I would not get real help, just a few diagnoses.  I ended up seeking out neurodevelopmental therapy based on the experiences of a friend.  After lengthy parent assessment form (my observations) and lengthy evaluation, we learned that the root cause of his difficult behavior was his auditory and sensory issues and that his auditory processing speed was very slow.  They explained that normal, every day things were a sensory onslaught to him and we had to teach his brain how to filter the sensory information more effectively.  A room full of kids was like sitting next to a jet engine.  The seams on his clothing were like patches of sandpaper.  He was so irritable because his world was so difficult for him.  After 6 months on program, his behavior dramatically improved.  Most importantly, I began to see him smile more often.  I didn't realize how little he smiled until he started getting better.  It broke my momma's heart to finally understand how much pain he was in.  We had him on program for 3 years.  It was expensive, but it was the best money I ever spent.  8 years later, I have a neurotypical child who is applying to colleges this month.

 

Hang in there and do pursue help for this boy.  You may feel like it is throwing good money after bad, but it will be worth it.  Does your state offer early intervention for preschoolers with issues?  Can you get him evaluated by an OT who is experiences with kids who have sensory issues?  Getting educated on his issues and getting appropriate help can go a long way toward finding the patience to deal with the situation. 

[kbutton]

We are overwhelmed, I'm not denying that.  We love Peter, but a lot of days we don't like him very much.  He cries for several hours every day.  Cries because we give him the wrong color cup which he chose 5 minutes ago and was the right color cup the day before, but now when it is presented to him it is cause for hysterical sobbing.  Cries because I won't let him tear a book to shreds though I do offer scrap paper or a magazine for his tearing pleasure, but that doesn't stop the crying.  Cries because it is his younger brother's turn to choose the first book to be read - a turn that will take 5 minutes at most and yet by the time it is Peter's turn he is so distraught he can't listen to the book he chose.  Cries because Nana is not available to talk on the phone right that second.  Cries because it is foggy outside.  Cries because his nose is running.  Just cries and cries and cries all day.  It is so draining and depressing and grates on every nerve in my body.

 

I'm not sure I know what you mean in your other post by neither DH nor I being realistic.  We are trying our very hardest and we certainly have Peter's best interest at heart, but he is our oldest and although we have both read tons of parenting books espousing various theories, we are still inexperienced and just doing the best we can.  

 

I agree that our (and especially DH's) attitude toward Peter is a major issue - it can be very negative.  OTOH, sometimes Peter's behavior is so negative that responding in any other way seems ridiculous and inconsistent.  In the space of 10 minutes this morning Peter threw a ball at the computer, pushed Elliot off a stool, burst into tears over being served, not forced to eat, just served, apples (which he loves) with his breakfast, and purposefully smeared peanut butter all over his shirt when he was just asked not to and we were trying to get out the door to take him to his preschool field trip that he was ostensibly looking forward to.  To me, it seems DH harps on Peter for everything, but DH says I let too many things go - sometimes I think he is right because in the spirit of keeping anything positive I sometimes pretend not to notice when Peter does something that I would never let Elliot (who is 2 years younger) get away with.  Otherwise, though, it seems like I would constantly be disciplining Peter and I worry he would get the message that he never does anything right.

 

Please be gentle.  We're trying our best.  We have sought out help and are trying get Peter the therapy and services he needs, but they are not always easy to find or qualify for and we do have to work somewhat within a budget.  the psych evaluation alone was $600 out of pocket and that did not lead to any concrete diagnoses or suggestions for how to deal with Peter on a day to day basis.  I just want us to find a way to survive day to day and be able to enjoy Peter for who he is without constantly being at odds with each other.

 

Thank you for your thoughts,

Wendy

 

I am so sorry you are going through this. I remember feeling this way. I think you sound like a mom who is doing her best (much of it creative, positive, and moving in the right direction), but not seeing a lot of results. I agree that you should not see seeking help as throwing good money after bad. It's a process sometimes to find the right person or program to help. I would definitely see if some autism or sensory books could help you find additional ideas while you are looking for some professional help--many techniques for kids with special needs overlap from one diagnosis to another. Don't get too excited about treating Peter differently than your other children at this point. It happens, and they are little. They all have different needs, and you are not doing it out of favoritism or to be unfair.

 

I just received a catalog in the mail called Different Roads, and it has products for kids on the spectrum. You might see what they have on their website (www.difflearn.com) to see if you can find something that helps him cope with expectations. Have you heard of social stories? You can get resources with social stories in them and resources to help you design your own social stories. Basically, the story is written such that the child is talking to himself, saying things like, "Mommy is on the phone. I really want to ask her a question right now. I can wait quietly until she hangs up the phone." This is grossly oversimplified, but I think they are supposed to manage expectations and give children positive messages that they can tell themselves later to cope with a situation. They have these stories for all kinds of things. http://www.thegraycenter.org/social-stories/what-are-social-stories I wish I had known about these when my son was little. I probably would have thought they sounded a bit patronizing if I had learned about them earlier (he's also cognitively gifted), but I found out that he likes this kind of stuff anyway.

[songsparrow]

I think you have gotten some helpful advice on this thread.

 

I just want to offer one thought - if you decide that preschool is not benefitting your son, could you use the money you are spending on the preschool to hire a mother's helper or babysitter to watch Peter while you spend some time with your other 2, and/or watch your other 2 while you spend some time with Peter? That might give you the break you need, while not overstimulating Peter.

[wendyroo]

I think you have gotten some helpful advice on this thread.

 

I just want to offer one thought - if you decide that preschool is not benefitting your son, could you use the money you are spending on the preschool to hire a mother's helper or babysitter to watch Peter while you spend some time with your other 2, and/or watch your other 2 while you spend some time with Peter? That might give you the break you need, while not overstimulating Peter.

I'm trying to convince DH to take the money we have been using for preschool and using it to buy a membership to the YMCA which we toured last year and looks fabulous (and his work has an agreement such that membership is 50% off). If we went two days a week I could exercise for an hour while the baby napped in a swing in the nursery area and the bigger boys were in the day care area playing with other kids and doing what looked like fantastic, developmentally appropriate crafts and activities and then I could grab the two bigger boys and give them an hour to play in the pool or gym while the baby stayed in the nursery.

 

DH argues that the way I am describing it sounds idyllic, but that in reality it would be still be stressful and Peter would still be frustrating. I agree to some extent, but think that nothing ventured nothing gained. Maybe it would work better, even just a little bit better. At the very least it would let me fit in some exercise (which I hope would improve my mood and outlook) and give me a short break from all the kids which I almost never get because DH is reluctant to watch all three at a time due to Peter's behavioral challenges and the baby being...well, a baby.

 

Wendy

[SKL]

If you're planning to keep him in group kid activities, I would think he would do better in a preschool than a Y child-watch situation where there is a lot less consistency / predictability.  And if he has a really rough time, the Y probably will not put up with it; they will call you to come and get your child.

 

I would even consider a five-day preschool so the morning routine is the same every day.

[Tmhearn]

Only because you mentioned a healthier diet... Have you looked into the Feingold Diet?

 

Your son sounds similar to my son. The Feingold Diet has helped us a lot. I paid the $60 to buy the program materials, and it was well worth it. My son can still be a pain. But, without the added stressors on his body, he can recover quicker and curb his impulses better.

[Susan in TX]

 

FWIW, my DS - who has/had many of the same issues your DS is dealing with - was ultimately diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome at age 7.  

 

My son, who also had many of the same issues, was diagnosed with Asperger's at age 14. I would do whatever you can to get another evaluation.

 

Susan in TX