? about doing straight dual-enrollment for the jr & sr years of high school

[*LC 630]

My oldest did part-time DE for her senio year while in public school. However, fulltime DE has come up as an option for my next for his junior and senior years. I have a question about how to schedule courses.

 

Let's assume I want my son to complete a total of 12 to 14 high school hours during that time. Our high school counts a DE class as a full year credit.

 

So, do I schedule math, history, and foreign language one semester. Then, the next semester, I would schedule science, English, and an elective. I could schedule another elective when it fits. That seems light, but scheduling 5/6 academic college classes at college for a high schooler looks like too much. That could be 15-18 college credits a semester.

 

Please help me know what is the "normal" way of handling this for straight dual-enrollment. This will be at a 4-year university.

 

Thanks

[EKS 12,222]

My son is enrolled full time at the local CC, which is on the quarter system.  Full time enrollment is three courses per quarter.  Most high schools have 6 periods per day, so if your son does all of his classes at the university, he could do three per semester and be fine.  If you're planning to give him one credit per semester class, there shouldn't be a problem.

[Pawz4me 30,239]

My youngest DS is in an early college high school at our local community college.  Juniors and seniors take four college classes per semester, plus a seminar class (high school credit only).  For a four-year university I would think three classes per semester would be enough?

[DarlaS 528]

My oldest did part-time DE for her senio year while in public school. However, fulltime DE has come up as an option for my next for his junior and senior years. I have a question about how to schedule courses.

 

Let's assume I want my son to complete a total of 12 to 14 high school hours during that time. Our high school counts a DE class as a full year credit.

 

So, do I schedule math, history, and foreign language one semester. Then, the next semester, I would schedule science, English, and an elective. I could schedule another elective when it fits. That seems light, but scheduling 5/6 academic college classes at college for a high schooler looks like too much. That could be 15-18 college credits a semester.

 

Please help me know what is the "normal" way of handling this for straight dual-enrollment. This will be at a 4-year university.

 

Thanks

15-18 credit hours is considered full time by most schools. I don't know how motivated he is, but that would be work to keep up with that even for most adults.

[Lori D. 21,717]

My oldest did part-time DE for her senio year while in public school. However, fulltime DE has come up as an option for my next for his junior and senior years. I have a question about how to schedule courses.

 

Let's assume I want my son to complete a total of 12 to 14 high school hours during that time. Our high school counts a DE class as a full year credit.

 

So, do I schedule math, history, and foreign language one semester. Then, the next semester, I would schedule science, English, and an elective. I could schedule another elective when it fits. That seems light, but scheduling 5/6 academic college classes at college for a high schooler looks like too much. That could be 15-18 college credits a semester.

 

Please help me know what is the "normal" way of handling this for straight dual-enrollment. This will be at a 4-year university.

 

Thanks

 

4-year university courses are often more rigorous than 2-year community college courses, so doing 3 classes at the univ. per semester, esp. if they are are 3-unit and 4-unit courses, would definitely be a full load. Even if the classes were at a moderate community college, I personally would not schedule a high school student who is new to dual enrollment for more than 2 classes for the FIRST semester of doing dual enrollment -- and that's assuming a solid student.

 

However, there are motivated and hard-working students out there who need a challenge, and if your DS is one of those, then math history and foreign language would be plenty to start off with. I personally would most likely NOT add a 3rd class to the semester with Science and English if the Science is a 5-unit course -- that's going to require a LOAD of work, plus English typically takes a lot of time because it is a lot of reading and then writing of papers. If it is a 4-unit Science class, and your student is motivated, then a 3rd "lighter elective" class could work with the Science and English. 

 

Some things to consider:

 

- If your student is used to homeschooling (not classroom learning), AND has never done dual enrollment, jumping in with 3 or 4 college classes all at once at age 15 or 16 (junior year) can often be risky. Is it possible to try just ONE class the first semester of junior year, and TWO classes the following semester, and then go to full time (3-4 classes) each semester of the senior year, to allow for transitioning?

 

- Your GPA from dual enrollment classes are part of your permanent college record. Make sure your student is really ready for college level courses, can handle more than one at a time, has solid study skills in place in advance of dual enrollment, and knows WHEN (i.e., immediately) and WHERE (the instructor, the tutoring center, hired personal tutor) to seek help if starting to struggle with any classes.

 

- If the course load is too much for your student and you need to withdraw, try and do so before the drop/refund deadline -- you won't get all your money back, BUT the dropped class(es) doesn't show up on the student's permanent record; And if that deadline passes and later in the semester your student is overwhelmed, go for withdrawal -- that *will* show up on the student's permanent record as a "W", which is not the best for starting a college career, but things happen and students need to withdraw, and a "W" (which carries no GPA weight) is MUCH better than just trying to slug it out and end up with a "D" or an "F" (which DO carry GPA weight and will be a killer for overall GPA for scholarship applications).

 

- 12 college units is considered full time student. 15-18 college units in one semester is too much for many COLLEGE students. Most freshmen taking their first college classes start with no more than 12-13 units (4 classes). Many colleges cap students at a maximum of 5 classes and it requires special permission (only after showing you really can handle more) to be able to enroll for 6 classes in one semester -- and typically, this consideration is only given to COLLEGE juniors and seniors.

 

- Double check what the university's freshman policy is (i.e., how many college credits a student can have and still be considered a freshman). Many schools limit it to 23-24; some as few as 12 credits or even just 6 credits. After that limit is reached, your student would no longer be considered a college freshman upon high school graduation, but be considered a transfer student.

 

This can be very important financially, as the vast majority of scholarships are offered to incoming freshman -- esp. the full-ride scholarships (full tuition for 4 years) and renewable scholarships (can re-apply for them each year as long as the student meets the requirements). There is far less money offered to transfer students, and most of what is offered tends to be non-renewable (i.e., only good for 1 semester or 1 year).

 

- What are your DS's career goals? How will dual enrollment help these goals? Will "doing college" be a positive challenge and help him reach his career goals more quickly and efficiently? Or will it possibly burn him out by doing too much rigor too soon? How motivated is your DS? And what type of student is he?

 

- How important are scholarships, or what is your family's need for financial aid? Would keeping the dual enrollment load a little lighter give DS more ability to prep and score high on SAT/ACT testing (which translates to better shot at scholarship $$)?

 

- Is dual enrollment free for high school students? So would it ease things financially to try and do as much dual enrollment as possible now? Is there a limit on the # of free or low-cost dual enrollment classes per semester?

 

 

Do some research. Carefully consider what type of student your DS is and what his future goals are and how motivated he is. Consider the financial aspects. Weigh all your options. BEST of luck, in coming to the best decision! Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

 

ETA -- PS -- and in case it helps in your research, check out the pinned thread at the top of the high school board: Outsourcing, Online Classes, Tutors, Dual Enrollment ... past threads linked here! -- Lots of links to past threads on various Dual Enrollment topics. :)

[aprilleigh 178]

The credits for a CC and 4-year college are the same - the classes transfer so they are equivalent. I'm a college professor with experience in both arenas, and I can assure you the biggest difference that *should* exist between CC and university courses is how far the faculty and administration are prepared to go to support student success. CC faculty are aware that some students are there because they can't get into a four-year college and need the extra support to be successful. University faculty tend to be research focussed because that's how they earn tenure and some of them only teach because their contracts require it. There are excellent professors at the university level who genuinely care about undergrad success, but they still have to devote much of their time to research and often are simply not able to provide the support a weak or inexperienced student might benefit from. Four-year colleges (universities have grad schools and research programs, colleges do not - the category they belong in has nothing to do with the name and they can call themselves whatever their governing body approves) are a nice blend between the two. The faculty are teaching oriented like the CCs, but students who need extra support will have to ask for it because the faculty expect the students to be independent and self-referring.

 

A regular one-semester class is equivalent to a year-long course at the high school level, but some colleges on the quarter system offer classes for half credit that either meet less often or on a normal schedule but for only half the semester (my undergrad school did this). Those would only be worth half credit at the high school level as well.

 

Colleges that are on a quarter system will depend on exactly how they interpret that. For that it depends on what is considered a full-time load at that particular school, whether the quarters include three regular terms and a summer term or four regular terms not including summers.

 

Some colleges are so unique that they need to be considered on a case-by-case basis, at which point your best source of advice will be someone from the college.

[Lori D. 21,717]

The credits for a CC and 4-year college are the same - the classes transfer so they are equivalent.

 

 

In theory, yes. In reality, no. This really depends on the quality of the community college. That is why the credits from many community colleges do not transfer to 4-year universities. For example: check out posts by FaithManor, who does a lot of admissions work with high school students in her state of MI -- an area in which the 2-year CCs do not match up in rigor or quality with the 4-year univ.

 

 

AprilLeigh: Not at all dismissing your post, as I agree with most of it. And it is wonderful your CC and university experiences have been so positive! :)

[Teachin'Mine 1,887]

Has he already done any dual enrollment there?   If not, I'd probably go for a lighter first semester and then let him increase as he feels able to handle the load.   I would find it near impossible to schedule everything for the next four semesters at the point before he begins as his wants and needs will likely change and the courses will be dependent upon scheduling.   Will he do any foreign language?  If so, I'd begin that the first semester as it would give him the chance to get in four "high school years" of language with the four semesters.   I'd look at other courses in the same way.  Whatever his area of interest is, I'd help him find a a class in that area for the first semester too.   Are there any areas that need some reinforcement before going into heavy reading/writing classes?   If so, then an English comp class might be a good idea that first semester as well.  I think that if you go by the general rule of two hours work outside of class time for each college credit, then he'll have an idea of how time consuming each course can be.   As he gets involved, he may very well want to increase the number of credits each semester.  IMO the best way to prep for challenging courses and course load at university is to use the time in high school to build up to that.  So I'd let him decide how many courses each semester.   Make sure he/you know the add/drop dates should he want to do that.   If he's not restricted by the types of courses he can take, let him explore some of the fun stuff like PE or whatever.

 

I saw that you listed foreign language for the first semester, but not for the second.   I wouldn't recommend spacing them out as each one builds on the previous without review, or at least that has been my dd's experience.  As far as number of credits, you can start with 9 credits or so to give him a chance to figure out the whole system, and then let him take more the following semesters.  Like foreign language, I think math is best done without major breaks, so if he has a semester without a college math class, maybe he could do one on his own to keep his skills and to prepare for whatever math he'll be taking at the university.

 

If he's a sophomore now, I'd consider doing a DE class next semester if he's got the opportunity, even if it's at community college instead of the four year one.

[aprilleigh 178]

- Double check what the university's freshman policy is (i.e., how many college credits a student can have and still be considered a freshman). Many schools limit it to 23-24; some as few as 12 credits or even just 6 credits. After that limit is reached, your student would no longer be considered a college freshman upon high school graduation, but be considered a transfer student.

 

This can be very important financially, as the vast majority of scholarships are offered to incoming freshman -- esp. the full-ride scholarships (full tuition for 4 years) and renewable scholarships (can re-apply for them each year as long as the student meets the requirements). There is far less money offered to transfer students, and most of what is offered tends to be non-renewable (i.e., only good for 1 semester or 1 year).

 

This depends a great deal on the college you apply to after finishing. Some offer very nice scholarships that are just like the ones they offer incoming freshman - you maintain specific requirements and they renew each semester. My personal experience in that regard was from a college that actively welcomed homeschooled students (my best friend there was homeschooled and started as a freshman, I had a similar scholarship but transferred after meeting the requirements of my high school's early admission program at a local CC).

 

Some won't accept transfer credits at all, so all incoming students start as freshman (in which case the previous college experience is still useful because it gives you a taste of college-level work). Best bet is to include the target college as well as the one you're looking at for DE to figure out your options. Some of the really good colleges that students who would benefit from DE might consider do not accept transfer credits, and some that do only accept those that were earned post-highschool.

[aprilleigh 178]

I think that if you go by the general rule of two hours work outside of class time for each college credit, then he'll have an idea of how time consuming each course can be.

 

Better go with 3 hours outside of class for every hour in - that's the recommendation of the CC system here. It varies a lot, obviously, with the academic abilities of the student, but it seems a realistic starting point.

[aprilleigh 178]

I saw that you listed foreign language for the first semester, but not for the second.   I wouldn't recommend spacing them out as each one builds on the previous without review, or at least that has been my dd's experience.  As far as number of credits, you can start with 9 credits or so to give him a chance to figure out the whole system, and then let him take more the following semesters.  Like foreign language, I think math is best done without major breaks, so if he has a semester without a college math class, maybe he could do one on his own to keep his skills and to prepare for whatever math he'll be taking at the university.

 

Absolutely agree with this - foreign language sequences need to be taken without interruption if at all possible. Been there, done that.

[aprilleigh 178]

In theory, yes. In reality, no. This really depends on the quality of the community college. That is why the credits from many community colleges do not transfer to 4-year universities. Check out posts by FaithManor, who does a lot of admissions work with high school students in her state of MI -- an area in which the 2-year CCs do not match up in rigor or quality with the 4-year univ.

 

 

AprilLeigh: Not at all dismissing your post, as I agree with most of it. And it is wonderful your CC and university experiences have been so positive! :)

 

Yes, I'm aware that some CCs are not getting the job done. That is not the case in any of the CC systems I've personally encountered, but it's a very good point.

 

IF the credits transfer they are equivalent and should be treated as such. Find out if they are transferable first.

 

The CC systems here work closely with the state universities to guarantee that most courses will transfer. There are still some that won't, but they are clearly identified as such, and most of them don't count towards a degree at the CC either (you get college credit so they count for financial aid purposes, but they don't fit into any program of study to count towards graduation requirements). Examples are ESL classes, remedial math (any math that numbered below first-semester college mathematics), and remedial writing classes. We also have a number of certificate programs whose coursework does not transfer, even as elective credit, because they're more skills than academics (cabinetmaking, for example).

[Teachin'Mine 1,887]

I can tell from the number of new posts that I sometimes take way too long to write a post. lol  

 

As far as the limit on the number of credits allowed to be an incoming freshman, if he knows some colleges he's interested in, he can give them a call or e-mail to find out if they have a limit and what it is.  Our experience so far has been that the less selective colleges often do have limits, but the more selective ones will allow an unlimited number of credits while maintaining freshman status.   Getting credit for the credits is a whole other thing though.  Some allow none, some allow some, and our in-state state colleges and universities take it all.  Some of the state university students take the community college courses during the summer, and they find them to be just as rigorous as their university classes, or even moreso as they are condensed into a shorter timeframe.

[regentrude 77,538]

The others have said everything, but I'll add my voice to the chorus: have him start slowly.

Foreign languages should be taken back-to-back. Also, some schools offer certain courses only in the fall or in the spring semester, watch out for that.

Plan for 2+ hours outside of class for every hour in class. 12 hours of class may add up to a 36-40 hour week, especially with math, science, and labs.

18 hours is a heavy load that many college students fail to manage. Better few classes with top grades than too many with mediocre or worse results.

[Teachin'Mine 1,887]

Yes!  I should have said 2 to 3 hours.  It definitely depends on the student and the course and the professor and the length of the class - regular semester or express or summer ...

[DarlaS 528]

Yes, I'm aware that some CCs are not getting the job done. That is not the case in any of the CC systems I've personally encountered, but it's a very good point.

It's not the case for all CC in MI either.

 

My husband was told (by more than one person) to wait to take math classes until he transferred to university instead of the CC he was attending because the university classes would be EASIER This CC has a bit of a reputation for challenging math classes. Kind of the opposite of what I guess is typical. I guess we're lucky.

 

There are definitely a lot of them around for which that would be true though. This is unfortunate because it means students who struggled in high school still won't get the help they need. :-(

[Heigh Ho 8,312]

My oldest did part-time DE for her senio year while in public school. However, fulltime DE has come up as an option for my next for his junior and senior years. I have a question about how to schedule courses.

 

 

The colleges in my area have a written agreement with the high schools for those who DE everything on the college campus their senior year.  They are essentially starting college a year early and take all classes at the college while retaining eligibilty to go out for high school sports and compete in music competitions (to do so they must be in an ensemble at their high school and take at least half of their lessons). If I understand my son's guidance counselor correctly, they satisfy 4th year PE  by taking double PE their last year on the high school campus if they are attending a 4 year college, or by taking a PE course at the CC if they are attending the CC. They can also take PE over the summer at a CC.

 

In this area, high school credit is awarded by seat time. So, for ex. College Calc 1 at the high school one period for two semesters gets 1 high school credit, one period for one semester gets 1/2 high school credit; both get the same number of college credits from the provider.

For the student who is attending college for all their senior year courses, the courses are translated the same way onto the high school transcript. These students are also limited in what courses they can take -- must have the comparable or test into a higher 4th year of SS and English to satisfy the high school diploma req'ts if they didn't already.

 

ime, those that decide to spend both jr and sr year full time at college around here tend to grad high school early unless they have their eye on a service academy.

 

[Lori D. 21,717]

This depends a great deal on the college 

 

 

Definitely! :)

 

That's why I tried to respond broadly, with so many questions for the original poster. I've read enough posts on this Board on the experiences of others to learn that every state -- every *college/university* -- has different options and requirements  :eek: . So while this Board is a great starting point, each of us has to research, research, research, to know the specifics for unique situation.  ... sigh...

 

I know, it's frustrating! That to just answer a simple question like "how should I count dual enrollment as credit", requires looking at what the local school systems do, finding out if your state has regulations about it, and figuring out what future college(s) your student *might* attend in order to know what quirks and rules *they* might have so you don't make a misstep for your student's junior and senior years in *high school*... Ug! It's enough to drive you  :willy_nilly: !

[Nan in Mass 14,463]

If I remember correctly, your son is in public school now?  If so, he shouldn't need quite as much time to adjust to a college classroom as my sons did.  Assuming that, I think I'd do it like this:

 

1 - foreign language, composition, fun EASY elective (something he wants to study and which will require a minimum of actual studying and a maximum of doing, like drawing))

2 - foreign language, English, math

3 - foreign language, math, science

4 - foreign language, math, science

 

If he needs a history, I would either add it to the 4th semester if you are absolutely sure he can handle four classes a semester, or I would substitute it for either the math or the foreign language the fourth semester.  Because college classes are (at least in theory) more intensive than high school classes, you aren't going to be able to schedule four semesters each of history, English, math, foreign language, and science.  College students typically take four or five, so three would be better for a high school student.  I would think about which classes are going to require good study skills - foreign language, science, history; which are problem-solving oriented - math and some science; which should be done consecutively - math and foreign language; which are likely to have a heavy reading load - English; and which are likely to require lots of writing - composition, English, history, upper level foreign language, and some science.  I'd use that information to balance the load.  You can design a schedule that will challenge your son needlessly by putting gaps in the foreign language and math sequences, or giving him several classes that require lots of memorization at the same time (like biochemistry, Russian history, Latin 2, and art history), or several that are writing-heavy, or several that involve massively time-consuming projects, like drawing, photoshop, computer programming, and music theory.  I'd try to add at least a couple PE classes.  They are a good place to get to know people and will help him to stay healthy and not burn out.  One problem with doing DE for the last two years of high school is that like all high school juniors and seniors, he will need good grades in order to get into university after he graduates.  Another is that he won't get as much support and help as a typical high school student would.  The combined pressure can lead to burnout, or depression, or blowing a semester because he gets rundown and catches the flu.  You don't want him to finish high school saying college is too hard and he doesn't want to go anymore.

 

If I just wanted to schedule 2 history, 2 English, 2 math, 2 foreign language, and 2 science, I'd do it like this, I think:

 

English1, History1, math1

English 2, History2, math2

FL1, Science1, elective

FL2, Sci2, elective

 

That leaves no gap between sophomore year math and junior year math, clumps the foreign languages together, and saves the science for senior year, since that may be more of a challenge.

 

Just some thoughts...  You've done this already once, though, so hopefully you have some idea of the work load associated with each class and whether a particular class is more like a high school class or a university class.

 

Nan

[Julie in MN 603]

You might not need to schedule in electives.  Some colleges only want something like 1 high school semester each of phy ed and fine arts.  Or, you might find a 2-credit college course.  Or, you might find your child earns some of those electives at home just in the course of his daily life (my ds lives at the gym and a class in "physical education" would just be silly).  That would free up a bit of time.  You could use that time to work more gradually into hard courses (my son took a math the first semester of DE that we felt would be fairly easy for him) or to take more courses in his field of interest (my son has taken DE math every semester).

 

My youngest is doing pretty much straight DE this semester.  He's a 12th grader.  And he's only taking 3 classes.  I was worried because it's only 10 credits, but we couldn't find a 2-credit course that worked.  I realize now that it's been enough -- for him.  He's also doing the ACT a couple of times, college tours, college apps, jobs, etc.  Like many have said, I don't want him to crash and burn, and I've seen crash and burn in my lifetime.  I'm letting him be 17 this year, not 19 like I was when I started college.  And we do try to fit in extras during the breaks or during weeks he has fewer assignments. 

 

I think it can look many ways, but mostly I wanted to say that, despite the fact that I wish he could fit in more subjects this year, it's turned out to be the right thing for ds to not take a typical full college load, even though he's only doing DE this semester. 

 

Julie

[Ellie 32,936]

The "normal" way of scheduling? Whatever classes are prerequisites for other classes, and whichever of those are available each semester, and if those aren't available, anything else that is mandatory and open.

[*LC 630]

Thanks everyone. You always have an answer and give me additional things to think about that I never considered. I appreciate you taking the time to give me your advice and opinions.

 

Anyway, I will give some more information about the situation that will answer some points that were raised. I never expected to be at this point, so I haven't really paid attention to how straight DE is done for later high school years. Two or three courses a semester seemed light. My oldest took that many both semester her senior year in addition to her 3 AP classes at public high school. However, five to six a semester seemed too many. I am not ready to homeschool high school, but it may be best for my son's college/future plans. The DE option will make it possible.

 

My son was homeschooled through high school. He is now a sophomore doing fine at our well-regarded, local, public high school. After high school, he wants to go to a dual-admission program for both undergraduate and graduate school. In talking/reading, it looks like the few schools that offer this option in his chosen career are looking for kids with lots of volunteer/paid experience in this field. Of course, good grades/decent test scores are needed also.

 

My son has been volunteering in this field since middle school. He volunteers at 4 different places for a total of 10-20 hours or so a month. His hours will pick up once he can drive, because he is limited now by when I can get him to places between other kid activities. He also has Boy Scouts, a sport, church and unrelated volunteer activities. However, it is school that takes up most of his time. He is gone from 7:45 to 4 every day. Plus, he has a lot of homework.

 

He recently applied for a part-time job in this field, but his available hours are limited by school. Reading a thread here, got me thinking, which is always dangerous. I thought, "You know, he would be a much more attractive employee if he got out of school earlier. He could do that if he did dual-enrollment." I mulled it over for a while. (Obviously, I didn't think about it enough, because your posts gave me things to think about that I never considered.) Last week, I had some 1 on 1 time with my son during the 45-minute drive home from one of his volunteer assignments, so I asked him about it. He loved the idea.

 

But, he took it in a different direction. He wants to homeschool with dual-enrollment. That would allow him to take a class in his area of interest each year with a local homeschool program that he attended in junior high. It just so happens these classes are taught by someone in his future profession. In addition, doing dual-enrollment while a student at his public school would drop his class rank dramatically, absolutely no shot at top 10 percent. Maybe not even top 25 percent. They do not weight DE classes unless the student has already taken AP classes in the exact subject at the high school. He is taking 2 AP classes this year, but he would have no reason to take another class in those subjects as a DE student. Therefore, he would definitely look better grade/ranking wise as a homeschooler. His high school is considered great academically, but none of the universities with the program he wants are in our state. So, I doubt his high school "name" or rigor would mean anything to any of them. (Some local kids do go to one of the schools that is five hours away, so I guess it could mean something at that one school.)

 

In reading another thread, I had a thought about doing what is right for today without worrying about tomorrow. I think this option would meet that goal. Even if he doesn't get into the program he wants after doing this, I do not think the homeschool/DE option will lessen his chances at getting into other colleges he likes. He is at state schools or a local private school with a great grad-school acceptance rate. He will have the grades/scores for any of these. Even if he doesn't get a job with his better availability, he can volunteer more hours at the places where he volunteers now and/or pick up another volunteer activity in the field that wouldn't work with his school schedule.

 

Thanks again. Since I have written a book, I will try to figure out multi-quote to address other points & ask other questions. However, I am fighting a cold, and my medication may win out.

 

Thank you.

 

 

 

[*LC 630]

15-18 credit hours is considered full time by most schools. I don't know how motivated he is, but that would be work to keep up with that even for most adults.

 

I agree. My college freshman, who is taking 16 hours this semester with 4 academic classes and 2 attendance only classes, is nervous about signing up for 18 during spring with 4 academic classes in the exact same subjects with a slightly more involved attendance class. ( I definitely don't want that for my high school kid.

 

The credits for a CC and 4-year college are the same - the classes transfer so they are equivalent. I'm a college professor with experience in both arenas, and I can assure you the biggest difference that *should* exist between CC and university courses is how far the faculty and administration are prepared to go to support student success. CC faculty are aware that some students are there because they can't get into a four-year college and need the extra support to be successful. University faculty tend to be research focussed because that's how they earn tenure and some of them only teach because their contracts require it. There are excellent professors at the university level who genuinely care about undergrad success, but they still have to devote much of their time to research and often are simply not able to provide the support a weak or inexperienced student might benefit from. Four-year colleges (universities have grad schools and research programs, colleges do not - the category they belong in has nothing to do with the name and they can call themselves whatever their governing body approves) are a nice blend between the two. The faculty are teaching oriented like the CCs, but students who need extra support will have to ask for it because the faculty expect the students to be independent and self-referring.

 

A regular one-semester class is equivalent to a year-long course at the high school level, but some colleges on the quarter system offer classes for half credit that either meet less often or on a normal schedule but for only half the semester (my undergrad school did this). Those would only be worth half credit at the high school level as well.

 

Colleges that are on a quarter system will depend on exactly how they interpret that. For that it depends on what is considered a full-time load at that particular school, whether the quarters include three regular terms and a summer term or four regular terms not including summers.

 

Some colleges are so unique that they need to be considered on a case-by-case basis, at which point your best source of advice will be someone from the college.

 

Thanks for great explanation of the differences between types of schools. He would be going to a 4-year university, but I don't know anything about how much research the professors do. My daughter who did dual-enrollment at a different 4-year university also took some classes through the local CC's online program when the other school didn't offer what she wanted or when she needed it. I can see my son doing the same. 

 

Has he already done any dual enrollment there?   If not, I'd probably go for a lighter first semester and then let him increase as he feels able to handle the load.   I would find it near impossible to schedule everything for the next four semesters at the point before he begins as his wants and needs will likely change and the courses will be dependent upon scheduling.   Will he do any foreign language?  If so, I'd begin that the first semester as it would give him the chance to get in four "high school years" of language with the four semesters.   I'd look at other courses in the same way.  Whatever his area of interest is, I'd help him find a a class in that area for the first semester too.   Are there any areas that need some reinforcement before going into heavy reading/writing classes?   If so, then an English comp class might be a good idea that first semester as well.  I think that if you go by the general rule of two hours work outside of class time for each college credit, then he'll have an idea of how time consuming each course can be.   As he gets involved, he may very well want to increase the number of credits each semester.  IMO the best way to prep for challenging courses and course load at university is to use the time in high school to build up to that.  So I'd let him decide how many courses each semester.   Make sure he/you know the add/drop dates should he want to do that.   If he's not restricted by the types of courses he can take, let him explore some of the fun stuff like PE or whatever.

 

I saw that you listed foreign language for the first semester, but not for the second.   I wouldn't recommend spacing them out as each one builds on the previous without review, or at least that has been my dd's experience.  As far as number of credits, you can start with 9 credits or so to give him a chance to figure out the whole system, and then let him take more the following semesters.  Like foreign language, I think math is best done without major breaks, so if he has a semester without a college math class, maybe he could do one on his own to keep his skills and to prepare for whatever math he'll be taking at the university.

 

If he's a sophomore now, I'd consider doing a DE class next semester if he's got the opportunity, even if it's at community college instead of the four year one.

 

I know about things changing; my daughter laughed at a friend of hers that started full-time DE her junior year. Less than a year later, she was going part-time DE. However, I don't see how my son's needs will change. He needs two more English, two more science classes - specifically physics; two more math classes - whatever he tests into; and three more social study classes. He has not taken AP Lang or Lit, so he would need two semesters of English Comp. He likes history better than English, so that is why I put it first. He is a great reader and ok writer. He has taken 2 years of foreign language in high school, but he wants to take as much as he can take in college also, so it would probably be the third course second semester. He may be taking his electives in his area of interest at the homeschool program.

 

If he takes math back to back, then he wouldn't have a math his senior year. Is that okay? The two classes he is likely to take as DE will fulfill the math requirements for the graduate school he is interested in (assuming they transfer.) I would like him to have a math his senior year, but a 3rd math class will mean a heavier senior DE schedule.

 

He is in public school, so he wouldn't be able to take a class this spring. If he works locally this summer, he could start with an online class this summer like his sister did.

 

Luckily, this is a big university, which keeps its past schedules available online. If he was there for fall or spring semester, he could take FL, History and Math (at least with the two he is likely to start with), on M/W or T/H and be done by 12:30. That would leave 3 days open for the 1-day homeschool class and work/volunteering. He might need to start 1 class below where it recommends for FL to make 4 semesters work with that kind of schedule, but that wouldn't be bad to help with the adjustment.

 

The others have said everything, but I'll add my voice to the chorus: have him start slowly.

Foreign languages should be taken back-to-back. Also, some schools offer certain courses only in the fall or in the spring semester, watch out for that.

Plan for 2+ hours outside of class for every hour in class. 12 hours of class may add up to a 36-40 hour week, especially with math, science, and labs.

18 hours is a heavy load that many college students fail to manage. Better few classes with top grades than too many with mediocre or worse results.

 

In thinking about it, it looks like 3 classes would allow him to get everything done. Would you recommend taking physics back-to-back also? At all the schools he is considering, he will need 2 physics classes to fulfill his grad-school entry requirements. (He won't need any additional physics down the road.)  Assuming the credits transfer, he doesn't want to take one semester here and one wherever he attends after graduation. Of course, taking science and math back-to-back would mean only science one year and only math the other.

I can tell from the number of new posts that I sometimes take way too long to write a post. lol  

 

As far as the limit on the number of credits allowed to be an incoming freshman, if he knows some colleges he's interested in, he can give them a call or e-mail to find out if they have a limit and what it is.  Our experience so far has been that the less selective colleges often do have limits, but the more selective ones will allow an unlimited number of credits while maintaining freshman status.   Getting credit for the credits is a whole other thing though.  Some allow none, some allow some, and our in-state state colleges and universities take it all.  Some of the state university students take the community college courses during the summer, and they find them to be just as rigorous as their university classes, or even moreso as they are condensed into a shorter timeframe.

 

These are all big out-of-state flagship universities. In a quick look, it looks like they will accept the transfer credit, but he will ask. We did that for my daughter, and everything transferred exactly as we were told by her big out-of-state flagship university.

 

The colleges in my area have a written agreement with the high schools for those who DE everything on the college campus their senior year.  They are essentially starting college a year early and take all classes at the college while retaining eligibilty to go out for high school sports and compete in music competitions (to do so they must be in an ensemble at their high school and take at least half of their lessons). If I understand my son's guidance counselor correctly, they satisfy 4th year PE  by taking double PE their last year on the high school campus if they are attending a 4 year college, or by taking a PE course at the CC if they are attending the CC. They can also take PE over the summer at a CC.

 

In this area, high school credit is awarded by seat time. So, for ex. College Calc 1 at the high school one period for two semesters gets 1 high school credit, one period for one semester gets 1/2 high school credit; both get the same number of college credits from the provider.

For the student who is attending college for all their senior year courses, the courses are translated the same way onto the high school transcript. These students are also limited in what courses they can take -- must have the comparable or test into a higher 4th year of SS and English to satisfy the high school diploma req'ts if they didn't already.

 

ime, those that decide to spend both jr and sr year full time at college around here tend to grad high school early unless they have their eye on a service academy.

 

 My head is stuffed up, so I confused myself. So, if the Calc 1 class is offered for one semester at the college, the senior would only get a 1/2 credit for Calc 1. Do I understand correctly that they would need to take the semester-long Calc 2 class at the college to get the 4th math credit that they need for graduation. It seems under that plan the senior would need to take at least 4 classes a semester to finish up with their required high school credits.

 

My confusion must mean the medication has won. Good night.

[Heigh Ho 8,312]

 

 My head is stuffed up, so I confused myself. So, if the Calc 1 class is offered for one semester at the college, the senior would only get a 1/2 credit for Calc 1. Do I understand correctly that they would need to take the semester-long Calc 2 class at the college to get the 4th math credit that they need for graduation. It seems under that plan the senior would need to take at least 4 classes a semester to finish up with their required high school credits.

 

My confusion must mean the medication has won. Good night.

 

Yes, high school credit is by seat time here.  1 semester college course = 1/2 high school credit.

 

Only three units of math are req'd here for the diploma, and there are many options for a fourth unit besides calculus.  To get one high school credit in Calc, they would take either a two semester Calc 1 course or a 1 semester Calc 1 + 1 semester Calc 2 sequence.

 

 

 

Req'd classes here for jr and sr year are English, Social Studies, Health, and PE. Usually DE (and in the past IB) students move Health to 10th grade. English & SS are then satisfied by courses taken at the college -- however there is an option to test out for high school credit. State regs list the alternative tests that can be substituted for the Regent's Exam in 11th grade US History and for 11th grade English. If the student tests out, they don't have to take those courses at the college level in order to satisfy the high school graduation requirements. PE is whatever works for their circumstances.  You would have to look at what the req'ts are in your state.

 

[Ellie 32,936]

 My head is stuffed up, so I confused myself. So, if the Calc 1 class is offered for one semester at the college, the senior would only get a 1/2 credit for Calc 1. Do I understand correctly that they would need to take the semester-long Calc 2 class at the college to get the 4th math credit that they need for graduation. It seems under that plan the senior would need to take at least 4 classes a semester to finish up with their required high school credits.

 

Many of us give one high school credit--a full year course credit, which might actually be a different number of credits depending on which state you live in--for any one-semester college-level course. IME, none of the homeschoolers I worked with as the administrator of an umbrella school ever had any problems when they applied to colleges with those credits--and not all of them applied to California colleges. :-)

 

Who is "requiring" the credits you think your ds will need? If he graduates with a boatload of college credits, are "high school" credits going to be a big deal?

[Teachin'Mine 1,887]

LC wrote:

 

 

I know about things changing; my daughter laughed at a friend of hers that started full-time DE her junior year. Less than a year later, she was going part-time DE. However, I don't see how my son's needs will change. He needs two more English, two more science classes - specifically physics; two more math classes - whatever he tests into; and three more social study classes. He has not taken AP Lang or Lit, so he would need two semesters of English Comp. He likes history better than English, so that is why I put it first. He is a great reader and ok writer. He has taken 2 years of foreign language in high school, but he wants to take as much as he can take in college also, so it would probably be the third course second semester. He may be taking his electives in his area of interest at the homeschool program.

 

 

If he takes math back to back, then he wouldn't have a math his senior year. Is that okay? The two classes he is likely to take as DE will fulfill the math requirements for the graduate school he is interested in (assuming they transfer.) I would like him to have a math his senior year, but a 3rd math class will mean a heavier senior DE schedule.

 

He is in public school, so he wouldn't be able to take a class this spring. If he works locally this summer, he could start with an online class this summer like his sister did.

 

Luckily, this is a big university, which keeps its past schedules available online. If he was there for fall or spring semester, he could take FL, History and Math (at least with the two he is likely to start with), on M/W or T/H and be done by 12:30. That would leave 3 days open for the 1-day homeschool class and work/volunteering. He might need to start 1 class below where it recommends for FL to make 4 semesters work with that kind of schedule, but that wouldn't be bad to help with the adjustment.

 

If his needs won't change, then that's one less thing to take into consideration.  : )

 

If he'll have completed all the math he'll need for his major, then I'm not sure that skipping math in 12th will matter.  I would think that if he could fit in another math course, it would keep his skills and give him more options should he change majors or want a minor, etc..   This might be something he should talk about with a college advisor once he's on campus.   My dd is in 12th, so I have no btdt experience. 

 

A summer class sounds like a great idea.

 

I think it's a great idea to back track a bit in foreign language as the curricula is different and knowledge from the previous courses, as far as vocabulary and grammar, is assumed.   It makes for an easier transition and that's a good thing.    Sounds like he'll have a great two years!

 

[Teachin'Mine 1,887]

Another thought, maybe he'd like to take statistics instead of Calc II as that works well for many majors.

[bugs 597]

What I had my daughter do her first couple of quarters was to start off easy, this helped her gain confidence and success.  She took Computer Literacy, English 101 (a requirement for many other classes) and Spanish 121 (she had already had some Spanish under her belt).  She has had progressively more difficult classes since. This quarter (she's a high school senior), she's taking a 200 level class.  She also has a part time job; she could not have done such a thing last year.

[HelenNotOfTroy 508]

In my area, DE high school credits are 1 credit per college class. The college classes are 1 semester long and count for 1 year of high school work. The credit hours matter to the college, but not to the high school.

[*LC 630]

 

- If your student is used to homeschooling (not classroom learning), AND has never done dual enrollment, jumping in with 3 or 4 college classes all at once at age 15 or 16 (junior year) can often be risky. Is it possible to try just ONE class the first semester of junior year, and TWO classes the following semester, and then go to full time (3-4 classes) each semester of the senior year, to allow for transitioning?

 

-

If the course load is too much for your student and you need to withdraw, try and do so before the drop/refund deadline -- you won't get all your money back, BUT the dropped class(es) doesn't show up on the student's permanent record; And if that deadline passes and later in the semester your student is overwhelmed, go for withdrawal -- that *will* show up on the student's permanent record as a "W", which is not the best for starting a college career, but things happen and students need to withdraw, and a "W" (which carries no GPA weight) is MUCH better than just trying to slug it out and end up with a "D" or an "F" (which DO carry GPA weight and will be a killer for overall GPA for scholarship applications).

 

 

- Double check what the university's freshman policy is (i.e., how many college credits a student can have and still be considered a freshman). Many schools limit it to 23-24; some as few as 12 credits or even just 6 credits. After that limit is reached, your student would no longer be considered a college freshman upon high school graduation, but be considered a transfer student.

 

This can be very important financially, as the vast majority of scholarships are offered to incoming freshman -- esp. the full-ride scholarships (full tuition for 4 years) and renewable scholarships (can re-apply for them each year as long as the student meets the requirements). There is far less money offered to transfer students, and most of what is offered tends to be non-renewable (i.e., only good for 1 semester or 1 year).

 

- What are your DS's career goals? How will dual enrollment help these goals? Will "doing college" be a positive challenge and help him reach his career goals more quickly and efficiently? Or will it possibly burn him out by doing too much rigor too soon? How motivated is your DS? And what type of student is he?

 

 

Do some research. Carefully consider what type of student your DS is and what his future goals are and how motivated he is. Consider the financial aspects. Weigh all your options. BEST of luck, in coming to the best decision! Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

Lori,

 

Sorry it took me so long to respond to your great post. As always, I appreciate the time/research you put in to your posts. You gave me good things to think about. At all the schools I could find an answer for online, it looks like he will still be considered a freshman with the DE credit. That is good news for scholarships.

 

In theory, DE will allow him to reach his career goals more quickly and efficiently. At our public school, the counselors consider DE to be the easier path, so I don't think it will burn him out. If he receives transfer credit for these classes, it will allow him to take a lighter course load once he is in college.

 

Thank you.

[*LC 630]

 

 

One problem with doing DE for the last two years of high school is that like all high school juniors and seniors, he will need good grades in order to get into university after he graduates.  Another is that he won't get as much support and help as a typical high school student would.  The combined pressure can lead to burnout, or depression, or blowing a semester because he gets rundown and catches the flu.  You don't want him to finish high school saying college is too hard and he doesn't want to go anymore.

 

 

If I just wanted to schedule 2 history, 2 English, 2 math, 2 foreign language, and 2 science, I'd do it like this, I think:

 

English1, History1, math1

English 2, History2, math2

FL1, Science1, elective

FL2, Sci2, elective

 

That leaves no gap between sophomore year math and junior year math, clumps the foreign languages together, and saves the science for senior year, since that may be more of a challenge.

 

Just some thoughts...  You've done this already once, though, so hopefully you have some idea of the work load associated with each class and whether a particular class is more like a high school class or a university class.

 

Nan

Thanks for giving me a perspective I had not considered. I will make sure to keep that in mind once he starts DE.

[Margaret in CO 19,841]

Something else to consider is NCAA. That may or may not matter to your student at all, but I was unable to get a WRITTEN decision on what full-time DE would mean for college sports. Nor was I able to get a written decision for our state high school athletic association. Both of them warned us off of full-time (12 credits) DE in high school.

 

A PP said that 12 credits is often considered full-time, but I do want to point out that a student can't graduate in 4 years only taking 12 credits a semester. Most majors require 15-16 to get through.

 

Another thing that we ran into with AROTC is that they weren't happy with dd's one year of credits--they did not want her to graduate early. She has to hold off on a major class until her second semester sr year.

[G5052 8,170]

 

One problem with doing DE for the last two years of high school is that like all high school juniors and seniors, he will need good grades in order to get into university after he graduates.  Another is that he won't get as much support and help as a typical high school student would.  The combined pressure can lead to burnout, or depression, or blowing a semester because he gets rundown and catches the flu.  You don't want him to finish high school saying college is too hard and he doesn't want to go anymore.

 

 

I work for a very good community college.  We routinely send graduates to "public Ivies" and have many solid transfer agreements including some guaranteed admissions ones.

 

The college I work for actually changed their policies this fall because of that rate of problems among 15-16 y.o. who were taking a full load.  Now you cannot take more than 3 classes a semester until you are 17 y.o. or until you have completed 18 credit hours with all "C" or above grades.

[katilac 16,934]

  it may be best for my son's college/future plans.

 

it looks like the few schools that offer this option in his chosen career are looking for kids with lots of volunteer/paid experience in this field.  

 

My son has been volunteering in this field since middle school.  

 

He recently applied for a part-time job in this field,

 

But, he took it in a different direction. He wants to homeschool with dual-enrollment. That would allow him to take a class in his area of interest each year with a local homeschool program that he attended in junior high. It just so happens these classes are taught by someone in his future profession. 

 

 His high school is considered great academically, but none of the universities with the program he wants are in our state.  

 

  Even if he doesn't get into the program he wants after doing this 

 

 

Such careful wording! Does he want to be a spy?  :lol: