AP/Dual Enrollment credit question

[MorningGlory]

Are students typically REQUIRED to use AP credits or dual enrollment credits earned in high school at universities that accept them?

 

I doubt this question makes any sense, so here is a personal example.

My son will take calculus in a year or two. He may take it through an online course, through dual enrollment at a local 4-year university, or self-study at home. Regardless, he will probably finish with an acceptable AP score for credit or dual enrollment credit. However, I would prefer (based on my personal experience) that he RETAKE Calculus I at the university he chooses to attend. I have recently heard rumors that our state flagship will not allow a student to do this (if they have already earned dual enrollment credit for the course), but I cannot find confirmation of this online. What is your experience with this situation?

 

Maybe I'm silly for wanting my son to start from scratch with Calc I at his university. Am I?

Thanks!

Jetta

[Luckymama]

This may be dependent on the particular school--check with someone at the university.

 

By university policy my older two could not use their AP credits for courses required by their major, which is fine with them and with me. They actually have/had a much easier class(es) than they would have, leaving more time to spend on the harder courses.

[8filltheheart]

It does happen. If schools are under the same board of regents, for example, they may not let you repeat the course. The flip side is that some schools won't grant you credit for AP or transfer courses.

 

As far as wanting him to repeat it, that is really student dependent. If my oldest dd had needed cal up, I think repeating it would have been beneficial for her. My sons, otoh, would have been bored to tears and it would have been a waste of time.

[Miss Marple]

All the universities I've looked at require that any credits earned at another college/uni be transferred.  However, whether the specific uni accepts the transfer as specific credit or 'elective' credit just depends on their transfer requirements.  IOW, the calculus taken at a nearby CC is transferred for 'elective' credit but not course credit at the state uni because the course is different and covers a different amount of material.  One son took calculus 1 at the CC and retook it at the uni.  He felt it was a good thing he had taken it before :)

 

If you are worried about whether the uni will allow your student to re-take the course, I would suggest enrolling him in an online high school course or AP course.  He doesn't have to take the AP test (thereby not receiving college credit).  If you aren't concerned that he get college credit for calculus taken in high school, just take it elsewhere.  

[shawthorne44]

Could he ask to sit on the Calculus course, but without credit (or cost)?  Back in the dark ages when I was a student, I found the professors more than willing to allow a sincere student to sit on the classes and even take the tests. 

[regentrude]

Could he ask to sit on the Calculus course, but without credit (or cost)?  Back in the dark ages when I was a student, I found the professors more than willing to allow a sincere student to sit on the classes and even take the tests. 

 

The professor is not allowed to let a student "just sit in"; for liability reasons, the student must be actually enrolled to be allowed in class. Auditing a course incurs the same tuition as actually taking the class.

[regentrude]

For this very reason, we have opted to teach calculus at home without the AP exam, so that there would be no problem for DD to retake calculus from the beginning of the sequence at university. I consider this very beneficial for almost all students, because the repeated exposure to the material gives the student an opportunity to appreciate the deeper theoretical concepts without being bogged down by details and homework problems. So no, I do not think you are silly at all.

 

Most of the universities DD is looking at accept no transfer credit whatsoever, many do not accept AP credit either, but will use it for placement.

If you want to be absolutely sure, just have him learn the material without bothering with the AP exam, and seek out other ways of outside validation for the rigor of his education (such as the Math SAT2, or dual enrollment in other courses)

[Gwen in VA]

I think whether retaking calculus is desirable depends on the kid.

 

My kids would have been bored to tears if they had had to retake it. Once was enough -- they all moved on to higher levels of math quite well prepared after just one calc I class.

[Teachin'Mine]

I would be surprised if any private universities would require you to accept the credit and not allow repeating the class.  I think this happens mostly at state universities as it's often about state aid.  If they've already paid, or partially paid, for a class taken as dual enrollment, they don't want to pay for it again.  I think it also has to do with high enrollment and class offerings too.   Definitely check with the schools for their specific policy.

[regentrude]

I think whether retaking calculus is desirable depends on the kid.

 

Most importantly, it depends on the level of the class.

A class that just teaches the mechanics of taking derivatives and stays at the surface - absolutely, boring the second time.

 

I had to take two years of calculus in high school, as every university bound student in my home country. The calculus course at university was something else and definitely challenging, theory rich and conceptually deep even for the smartest of us. No way I would have been able to skip that (and I am fairly good at math and ended with a doctorate in theoretical physics). My genius-smart DH is strongly in favor of retaking calc; a student for whom the mechanics are already familiar can study the theory at a deeper level and explore more challenging aspects that can not possibly be appreciated the first time around.

 

[creekland]

Most importantly, it depends on the level of the class.

It definitely depends upon the class. Generally the professors in the dept know if the class will merely be a repeat (and therefore, skippable) or contain new info (not a good idea to skip it).

 

Middle son definitely is glad he didn't skip his. The mechanics were the same, but the U class went into FAR more depth. His peers who skipped the course ended up regretting it and told him so. All had had AP level in high school. However, at a different school (in a different class) their experiences could have varied.

 

Ditto this for Bio, Chem, and pretty much any subject for which one can receive credit. It depends upon the class. Middle son's testing out of Psych 101 WAS beneficial as the course covered the same material. Doing it twice would have been boring.

[*LC]

My freshman goes to a large state university. For engineering students, the school encouraged everyone to start with Calc 1 no matter what their score on the AP calculus BC exam. My daughter is taking honors math classes, and only Calc 1 would fit in her schedule.

Since she wasn't using the AP calc credit, she didn't know how the university would treat the credit. She found out last week that she received equivalent elective hours for the AP calculus score. That means she started with 40 credit hours between AP and dual enrollent courses.

 

My daughter had a dual-enrollment class that she did not want credit for, so she audited the class. She did all the work/labs, and the were graded. However, she did not receive credit or a grade for the class. I am guessing she could have just used the credit as elective, since it was taken at a 4-year uni in a different state. However, this made the most sense for her since the class grade would not be weighted by her public hs, which would have brought her grade down.

 

So, in her case she did not have to take the AP credit. And, auditing the de class meant she didn't have to worry about the credit for that class.

[MorningGlory]

Thank you so much for all your responses! The WTM board is always a wealth of information, encouragement, and great advice.

 

This question has arisen in my local homeschool support group and has, honestly, caused angst among some of the moms. There are quite a few who have been using dual enrollment at the local community college for higher level courses...like calculus...assuming that their students can still retake the course(s) at the university level. Apparently, that is not always the case. Taking calc I at our local community college is certainly not the same as taking it our flagship university...as many of you have pointed out. I want to be able to properly "warn" these local moms and encourage them to really investigate all aspects of dual enrollment and AP options.

 

In my own particular case, my son will definitely be pursuing a math or science career, so I plan for him to take calculus in high school and again in college (for all the reasons that have been mentioned in this thread). He may very well attend a selective private university, but then again, he may attend a state university, so we need to prepare for either possibility at this point. I think it will probably be in his best interest if he just take calculus at home.

 

Again...thank you for your answers! I have another dual enrollment question, but I'll save it for another thread.

Jetta

[snowbeltmom]

I am not sure that DE credit and AP credit are necessarily handled the same way in this situation.  As previous posters have mentioned, I can understand why a state university may require that a student use his DE credit, but does anyone know of a situation where a student was required to take AP credit? 

 

My local public high school requires that all students enrolled in an AP class sit for the AP exam in order to get credit for the class.  For homeschoolers, I think it adds credibility to our kids' transcripts if we have them take the AP exam in the subjects that they are studying at the AP level. 

 

I have never heard of a college that demands that a student use his AP credit to place out of a class if a student does not wish to do so.  However, if a college did have such a policy, it would be very easy to get around that policy - the student would simply not submit his official AP score for that class. 

 

I would be much more concerned about an adcom wondering why my kid does not have an AP score listed on his transcript for a subject he studied at the AP level than I would be about the college forcing my kid to use the AP credit against his wishes.

 

[Julie in MN]

Maybe I'm silly for wanting my son to start from scratch with Calc I at his university. Am I?

Thanks!

Jetta

 

I can only answer this part of your question.  No, you aren't silly.  My oldest to calc at his high school, then at the community college via dual enrollment, and finally at his University.  He started at the beginning of calc each time.  He doesn't regret doing that.  He did well in college, graduated in 4 years, and was hired right away, so obviously it didn't hurt, either. 

 

Julie

[*LC]

Jetta,

 

I remembered that I wanted to respond to your follow-up post on this thread.

 

My husband always said don't make decisions out of fear. In your case, that means have your son do calculus wherever it will be "hardest." Since he is heading into math/science, I would want him to take get the best calculus instruction/preparation possible for high school. If that is CC or at home, will depend on your kid/family/the CC/your math resources/etc.

I wouldn't let the concern about college calculus enter into the equation, with the exception of calling the state u(s) where your son will apply to ask if he would be allowed to retake calc at that u. I don't think there is any chance of the highly selective universities requiring your son to take the calc credit, so I wouldn't worry about that. Of course, you could call to make yourself at ease.

 

Since people in homeschool group have been taking calculus at the CC, what has their experience been with the state u(s) and calculus or other math/science sequence classes?

[In The Great White North]

 

 

The professor is not allowed to let a student "just sit in"; for liability reasons, the student must be actually enrolled to be allowed in class. Auditing a course incurs the same tuition as actually taking the class.

 

This must be institution- dependent.  Dd "sat in on" chemistry last year without an issue (or any tuition).  To do the labs, though, you had to be enrolled.

 

This school also does not allow students who had a 5 on the AP Bio test to take their lowest bio course (the one that is required for everyone else).

[MorningGlory]

My husband always said don't make decisions out of fear. In your case, that means have your son do calculus wherever it will be "hardest."

 

This is very wise advice. Thank you very much for remembering to share it! :)

 

 

Since people in homeschool group have been taking calculus at the CC, what has their experience been with the state u(s) and calculus or other math/science sequence classes?

 

This is a new "issue" just brought to our attention by a young man (senior) who took Calculus I at the local CC and was told a couple of weeks ago while visiting our state flagship that he cannot retake it. However, he was NOT told this same thing by other states' universities. I do believe what some have said on this thread...our state paid his dual enrollment through a hope scholarship, and thus, they do not want to pay for the same class again at the university level. It is an interesting problem, and one that I am going to definitely investigate more. 

 

Thanks!

[shawthorne44]

This must be institution- dependent.  Dd "sat in on" chemistry last year without an issue (or any tuition).  To do the labs, though, you had to be enrolled.

 

This school also does not allow students who had a 5 on the AP Bio test to take their lowest bio course (the one that is required for everyone else).

 

That is what I saw too.  Taking a class for Pass/Fail cost the same.  But auditing it off-the-books was perfectly fine.  The professors seemed pleased that a student was interested enough in their subject to "take" the class without credit.

 

As a non-student, I have even emailed professors with questions about a book they wrote.  I have always received thoughtful replies.  

 

Also, in calculus I can not imagine the professor even noticing another person in the room.  

[regentrude]

Also, in calculus I can not imagine the professor even noticing another person in the room.  

 

Why?

 

[Miss Marple]

It is common here for students to enroll in an online class and then attend the lecture sessions.  This is most typically found with the math courses (trig, calculus) because the students prefer the online format and can work at their own pace with just a few deadlines.  They can also take tests early or finish homework early if they need some extra time (vacation, other tests looming, etc.).  But they get the advantage of hearing the lectures and watching the professor work problems.  My boys never did this, but I can see some advantages and think it might be a good idea for some students.

 

[brownie]

Way back when (17 years ago), I was permitted to do pretty much whatever I wanted with AP credits at our state university.  I skipped calc 1 whereas a friend re-took it.  I had compsci credits in a different language from required...I could have had it count but I chose to use it as general ed and take the required clas.  Only Freshman English was mandated or everyone...I had AP credits in English lit but could only use them as general ed, which as I recall accomplished nothing except to allow me to schedule earlier because I had more credits and was a "sophomore".

[shawthorne44]

Why?

 

 

Because there are so many people in the room. 

[regentrude]

Because there are so many people in the room. 

 

Depends on class and instructor and the way the lecture is organized.

Often, there will be smaller recitations in addition to lecture. And even with 100+ students in a lecture hall, the instructor may know everyone by name. there may be interactive group work during class time and the instructor might get to know the students really well. (I'm good up to 150.)