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Q for Those Knowledgeable about European Universities! Help!


TranquilMind
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My oldest is interested in applying to Maastricht University (University College Maastricht) in the Netherlands and Freiburg University in Germany,  both of which have undergraduate degrees taught in English. 

 

One of the requirements of Maastricht is that an applicant have " 4 Advanced Placements", according to the site.  In an email, my daughter attempted to explain that while she already has 3 AP scores from her previous school, she now attends an early-college school at a university, where every class is university level or actually AT the university itself (taking 3 college classes this semester, including one 400 level).  Hence, she believes that she more than meets the "Advanced Placements" requirement, as every class is advanced, but she is worried that the school will not accept her because it will only see three specifically designated "AP" classes with scores, and overlook her many university-level and actual university classes.

 

Emailing was unsuccessful, as they simply said, "4 Advanced Placements".  Her school offers no more Advanced placements that she can take, and indeed, offers few, as all classes are college level.

 

What should we do?  Would these universities accept self-study AP's that don't necessarily correspond to an AP designated class?  She's thinking about just taking a couple of AP tests in May.  Otherwise, she has to change schools, in her senior year, to a school that has spring AP classes!

 

Can anyone give us some advice? 

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How cool! I remember your previous thread on this topic.  I grew up in Freiburg.  It's a beautiful city, and I'm sure she'll love it there if that's where she attends.   :)

 

Since your DD wasn't able to clarify this over email, I would call.  I wouldn't take someone else's word for what the university might accept.  Best to talk to them about your DD's specific situation and then have whoever she speaks with summarize the information via email after the call, so you have it in writing.

 

 

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Does 'Advanced Placements' mean the same thing there as it means here? We thing of the AP test, but I would be surprised that that is what they meant. 

That is precisely the question I asked, and the one that she attempted to convey, but perhaps did not. I think she is assuming yes, but it might not be so.

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For a British University they mean the American AP so I would assume the European English speaking programs do too. It is simply the only option most Americans have that is somewhat similar to A levels. A few want SAT II's FWIW.

 

I suspect when they say 4 AP exams they mean it but do not realy know. The Dutch program has become very popular with British students due to a huge rise in tuition costs in UK so they have plenty of people applying. The Dutch option is substantially cheaper and people are using it. One of dc's friends will be there next year, can't remember which program.

 

I would continue trying to get a answer in writing. It needs to be spelled out very clearly that the high school she is attending is unique. Remember college here means high school unles you are talking Oxbridge type University's.

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Does 'Advanced Placements' mean the same thing there as it means here? We thing of the AP test, but I would be surprised that that is what they meant.

I'm from the Netherlands, but do not have direct experience with the University of Maastricht, so you really need to talk to someone there.

 

However, my sister is working at another university in charge of admitting foreign students. From her, I have heard the same rule about having 4 AP's, and I believe there are also requirements about what grade you got for those AP exams. An American High School diploma without 4 AP's is not considered enough to get access to the university, just like in the Netherlands where only students who passed the VWO state exams can go to university. The HAVO or VMBO state exams do not give access. Only about 10-15% of Dutch students goes to university.

 

I think part of the reason they do not seem to understand is the confusing situation that what you call college or university is not what we call university in the Netherlands. So your daughter taking classes at an early-college school at a university....is a completely confusing description to me :) and -I assume- to them. There are of course ways around this confusion, I do know that sometimes the courses a student has taken are reviewed by faculty, to see if the courses are of an appropriate level. The admissions officer can't do this, but can arrange for it.

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I looked this up for both Leiden (the best uni in NL IMHO) and Amsterdam University College -- 

 

http://www.auc.nl/admissions/admission-requirements/diplomas-from-specific-countries/diplomas-from-specific-countries.html

 

http://hum.leiden.edu/internationalstudies/faq/faq.html

 

They both seem to imply that, if you have completed a first-year program at an American university, you will be considered to have obtained the equivalent of a Dutch pre-university high school diploma. I would suggest pointing out how your dd's qualifications meet these requirements, and ask whether MU would accept those.

 

I think that the difficulty is that Dutch universities have a hard time understanding how to evaluate US high school diplomas since in the US you don't have quite the same standardized tests to measure what you've learned in high school, hence the demand for the APs because that is something they can wrap their heads around. You could also try contacting nuffic.nl for advice as they deal with evaluating foreign diplomas in NL. 

There are a number of other English-language unis in NL, perhaps it would be worth looking at those as well? Or is it specifically Maastricht that your daughter is interested in? 

 

Good luck with all of it. Sounds like a good and interesting plan!

 

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It sounds like you need AP test scores, not classes. I wouldn't transfer. I would a couple more AP exams to take, in subjects related to her current course load, find where exams in those subjects are offered, sign up for the exams, get review materials and prepare.

Also look at what exams are needed for the program she wants to enter and try to get a comparable AP. The student we know will be going with with math and chemistry A levels for a chemistry degree which is required I believe. Can't remember the other A levels she is doing.

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I am from Germany and have applied and been accepted to German Universities. I also believe, after seeing what my high schooler is learning in public school in the US, that the 4 AP classes are required in order to be equivalent to a German Leistungskurs. Therefore some of the college classes your daughter is taking should count. In my opinion, the German University wants to see one calculus math, one English literature/poetry course, one science and one language. All of these must be AP, or college level. I would submit all transcriptions of the courses that meet this criteria and your daughter received at least a B in. Keep calling the colleges until you reach someone knowledgable about US applicants. They should give you more specific information. Don't confuse them with details, only tell them that in addition to high school, your daughter is also enrolled in college and is currently taking _______(math, foreign language, science, English).

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Have her study for and take the AP for a class she's already completed at the college level. DD got w five on the AP chem without taking the class. She used one of my college chem texts and used a coupled of prep books. You can go to the college board website and get a list of the approved texts for the subject she

would want to test in.

 

This might be the simplest solution to meeting a policy and especially with subtleties of language

possibly making it difficult to convey the content of her university coursework.

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For a British University they mean the American AP so I would assume the European English speaking programs do too. It is simply the only option most Americans have that is somewhat similar to A levels. A few want SAT II's FWIW.

 

I suspect when they say 4 AP exams they mean it but do not realy know. The Dutch program has become very popular with British students due to a huge rise in tuition costs in UK so they have plenty of people applying. The Dutch option is substantially cheaper and people are using it. One of dc's friends will be there next year, can't remember which program.

 

I would continue trying to get a answer in writing. It needs to be spelled out very clearly that the high school she is attending is unique. Remember college here means high school unles you are talking Oxbridge type University's.

Thank you.  I do think that this was not made exceedingly clear.  I mean, she's in a 400 level University class!  That certainly should be sufficient for that subject. 

She was aware that college in the UK system meant "high school", but I'm not sure how clear it was to the person with whom she was interacting. 

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I'm from the Netherlands, but do not have direct experience with the University of Maastricht, so you really need to talk to someone there.

 

However, my sister is working at another university in charge of admitting foreign students. From her, I have heard the same rule about having 4 AP's, and I believe there are also requirements about what grade you got for those AP exams. An American High School diploma without 4 AP's is not considered enough to get access to the university, just like in the Netherlands where only students who passed the VWO state exams can go to university. The HAVO or VMBO state exams do not give access. Only about 10-15% of Dutch students goes to university.

 

I think part of the reason they do not seem to understand is the confusing situation that what you call college or university is not what we call university in the Netherlands. So your daughter taking classes at an early-college school at a university....is a completely confusing description to me :) and -I assume- to them. There are of course ways around this confusion, I do know that sometimes the courses a student has taken are reviewed by faculty, to see if the courses are of an appropriate level. The admissions officer can't do this, but can arrange for it.

Thank you.  This was helpful.  I'm sure it was confusing!  I don't know whether I should step in to try to clarify confusion or just let her do it.  Or maybe she should just take more AP exams at the end of the year. 

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I am from Germany and have applied and been accepted to German Universities. I also believe, after seeing what my high schooler is learning in public school in the US, that the 4 AP classes are required in order to be equivalent to a German Leistungskurs. Therefore some of the college classes your daughter is taking should count. In my opinion, the German University wants to see one calculus math, one English literature/poetry course, one science and one language. All of these must be AP, or college level. I would submit all transcriptions of the courses that meet this criteria and your daughter received at least a B in. Keep calling the colleges until you reach someone knowledgable about US applicants. They should give you more specific information. Don't confuse them with details, only tell them that in addition to high school, your daughter is also enrolled in college and is currently taking _______(math, foreign language, science, English).

This is very helpful.

A bit concerned about the breadth of the AP scores here.  Hers are not in all 4 areas.  The three she has AP scores in now are in Language and a couple kinds of history!  However, if all classes are university level and she is in Anatomy right now (and took Bio here at this school, and Chem and Physics before), that should count, and several English classes at this school.   

 

The actual university classes are in Econ, non-Western History and Languages right now.  She does have Sat II's in Literature and Latin. 

Only in precalc, but has an A- (just not an advanced math/science student, but very strong in humanities).  

 

Now I am concerned.

Also, another problem is that the two Euro universities don't even want apps until June!  And she needs to accept an American college, if she wanted to do so, by May.  Her school is pressuring her to get accepted somewhere. 

 

Hmmm.  Do you think lack of Calculus could present a problem if all other requirements are met? 

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Have her study for and take the AP for a class she's already completed at the college level. DD got w five on the AP chem without taking the class. She used one of my college chem texts and used a coupled of prep books. You can go to the college board website and get a list of the approved texts for the subject she

would want to test in.

 

This might be the simplest solution to meeting a policy and especially with subtleties of language

possibly making it difficult to convey the content of her university coursework.

We were discussing this today, and I agree that this might be the simplest solution. 

 

Classes are really hard at her school, much harder than at the University.  I was overhearing conversations in the hall that surprised me, as students walked by last week, when I was waiting for my various Parent-Teacher meetings. 

 

One kid said, "I have all B's, one C- and maybe one A".  Another said, "I hope I get at least one A".  Another talked about hoping he can pull out of his "D'".  I overheard stuff like this all day long.  So the work load is demanding and to add APs on top, will be an effort.

(She has all A's, and one B+ right now - in the math class.  He thinks she can bump it up, because she does well on tests, which is a larger percentage of the grade.  )

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This is very helpful.

A bit concerned about the breadth of the AP scores here. Hers are not in all 4 areas. The three she has AP scores in now are in Language and a couple kinds of history! However, if all classes are university level and she is in Anatomy right now (and took Bio here at this school, and Chem and Physics before), that should count, and several English classes at this school.

 

The actual university classes are in Econ, non-Western History and Languages right now. She does have Sat II's in Literature and Latin.

Only in precalc, but has an A- (just not an advanced math/science student, but very strong in humanities).

 

Now I am concerned.

Also, another problem is that the two Euro universities don't even want apps until June! And she needs to accept an American college, if she wanted to do so, by May. Her school is pressuring her to get accepted somewhere.

 

Hmmm. Do you think lack of Calculus could present a problem if all other requirements are met?

About the Calculus: I don't know what major your daughter is trying to pursue, and I can't say anything about the German University guidelines. I do however know that if your daughter is not able to do multivariable Calculus, it will be very unlikely that she can keep up with the math class. So even if she doesn't specifically need it, she should be prepared.

 

Can your daughter commit to a University here, and then change her mind if she gets accepted abroad? Otherwise, if she meets the specific guidelines of the German University, ask admissions what last years GPA of accepted applicants was. That can sometimes give you a good idea on the likelihood of her getting in.

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About the Calculus: I don't know what major your daughter is trying to pursue, and I can't say anything about the German University guidelines. I do however know that if your daughter is not able to do multivariable Calculus, it will be very unlikely that she can keep up with the math class. So even if she doesn't specifically need it, she should be prepared.

 

Can your daughter commit to a University here, and then change her mind if she gets accepted abroad? Otherwise, if she meets the specific guidelines of the German University, ask admissions what last years GPA of accepted applicants was. That can sometimes give you a good idea on the likelihood of her getting in.

My daughter did some more research on the German requirements today, and they seem to be very heavy on math and science.  She's very strong in humanities, not math and science, really, though she does ok.

She might be changing her mind on that one!  Thanks for your thoughts.  Yes, she is going to apply to the state flagship, at least, so they get off her back about acceptance somewhere.  She can always lose the deposit if she makes another decision later than May 1, I guess. 

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What should we do?  Would these universities accept self-study AP's that don't necessarily correspond to an AP designated class?  She's thinking about just taking a couple of AP tests in May.  Otherwise, she has to change schools, in her senior year, to a school that has spring AP classes!

 

 

I was totally agreeing with the advice to just take an AP test and forget the class, but I just attended a talk on attending University in Baden-Württemberg (Germany), and they specifically said that the admission people checked to make sure you took an AP-approved class to go along with the test!!  I was gobsmacked.  Now, this info was just for one state in Germany - even there different states apparently can have different requirements - but apparently some places over there do care.

 

Not sure exactly how 100% accurate their info is, as they also said if you got 1300+ on the SATs that you didn't need APs as well, and I'm about 90% sure that's untrue.  But... they took time to specifically mention the AP class vs. test thing (and this was not a talk to homeschoolers, so that wasn't a consideration).

 

Another interesting bit of info is that you can't even apply there till you have your diploma in hand - so well after most US universities' deadlines and maybe even after they've sent out acceptances?  That makes things tricky.  (Again, this info was specific to one state in Germany, but I wonder if some of it might be true in other European universities...)

 

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I was totally agreeing with the advice to just take an AP test and forget the class, but I just attended a talk on attending University in Baden-Württemberg (Germany), and they specifically said that the admission people checked to make sure you took an AP-approved class to go along with the test!!  I was gobsmacked.  Now, this info was just for one state in Germany - even there different states apparently can have different requirements - but apparently some places over there do care.

 

Not sure exactly how 100% accurate their info is, as they also said if you got 1300+ on the SATs that you didn't need APs as well, and I'm about 90% sure that's untrue.  But... they took time to specifically mention the AP class vs. test thing (and this was not a talk to homeschoolers, so that wasn't a consideration).

 

Another interesting bit of info is that you can't even apply there till you have your diploma in hand - so well after most US universities' deadlines and maybe even after they've sent out acceptances?  That makes things tricky.  (Again, this info was specific to one state in Germany, but I wonder if some of it might be true in other European universities...)

 

Yikes!  I had no idea that they actually checked to see that you took an AP class.  What difference does it make if you do well on the AP?

 

And yes, she has well exceeded the 1300 on the Reading/Math sections of the SAT (high writing score too).  But it doesn't look like that matters! 

I did know that you can't apply until after graduation and that is kind of freaking out the guidance people at her school.  She doesn't mind taking a gap year though, and would actually prefer it, since she will graduate before she is 18. 

 

Thanks for the info! 

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