Don't Like What You Picked? Tapestry has a special for you

[Candid]

To the person that said that they could easily change questions for their students, are they saying that they can change the content within the files? Or do they have to retype everything into another file? How much is dedicated to the "Christian foundings" of the US? Basically, I don't want a whitewashed Protestant history and that is what concerns me. I know I will have to toss out most of the "plays" because they are to direct students a certain direction (Mergath made reference to one as well, so apparently they are still there). I'm wondering how much has to be changed or cut.

 

That was me, no I'm afraid you'd have to do it yourself.

 

However, having led R level lit discussions I can tell you I do extensive editing to do so in a way that makes sure I get in everything. Generally I highlight up a storm so I can quickly see what I need to say and what I am looking to hear back. But I also write notes. Now, I have a print version, so what I did was to scan in the printed pages and then use a PDF editor on my tablet to do most of this marking up. Then I could either print the pages back out or use my tablet when I was with students.

 

So many things wouldn't have to be modified at least in my system, so much as not highlighted if I didn't want to cover them. I assume everybody is doing some of this work because Tapestry is pretty clear that it is a buffet. Part of picking and choosing which parts you are going to do is editing out or changing the discussion. So is that more work? Probably not if you are realistic about what you are and aren't going to do no matter what to use the curriculum. 

 

I'll even say that when I just work one on one with my own kids I won't premark stuff but that doesn't mean I still don't edit as I go, but there are occasional award pauses that I wouldn't have when teaching with others. 

 

The only thing that would need to be done is modify the student activity pages something I rarely do. 

[Candid]

Mostly the latter, but with the former playing the role to lead the way.

 

I'm glad to hear that it has been toned down...hopefully, WAY down. I was Reformed when we ordered the classic, back then it was just after the "testing" period and being opened up to everyone. There was a lot of talk about the author, people that had spoken with the author, I think even one that had been one of the testers...so I remember hearing a bit about the author and her beliefs. And yes, we all can mellow or change. I'm not certain how much theirs have or haven't. 

 

Ah, this makes more sense to me. But I'm not sure that what you heard was completely accurate. Often it is very easy for folks to hear what they themselves believe and then when repeating it to others make it sound like that whoever they are talking about is much more like the speaker than is really the case. Or the reverse to hear much more negative things than what is actually said. 

 

I know in my past I've been aware of situations where someone would hear a person speak on a subject and then when telling others what had been said, modify that to suit what they wanted to hear. And it can even go both ways where someone who wants to hear negative will hear even greater negative. 

 

Further, in regards to what you remember, lots of studies show this process is heavily involved in memory. Memory is extremely malleable. This doesn't mean anyone is doing it intentionally, but it does happen. 

 

Look at the change in your own beliefs from that time. You don't want us to believe someone who knew you then over what you DO now?

 

So, I think it is much more wise to look at the full picture in these cases and not rely on these intermediary memories and statements. 

 

While I understand your concerns about the Hinduism comments posted above, the fact is that most evangelical and fundamentalist Christians have those same beliefs, otherwise why evangelize at all? So in those remarks there is not some particular theology. 

[boscopup]

I've seen Providential stuff in TOG (ie, God's hand in every tiny thing). That's very evident in her videos as well, from the way she talks. I differ from her view on this subject, but I still find it easy to adapt to our view because, again, any questions will be at D and R levels, where the kids can discuss with Bible passages to back up their arguments.

 

I haven't seen anything Dominionist so far, but I've only seen one full unit plus samples of other years.

 

 

As far as editing the questions... in DE version, they have regular pdf pages with the questions, and you can copy and paste into a Word document and edit freely. It's work, but not really hard work. I doubt I'll bother. At D and R stages, I'm not as worried about them. My kids should have a very solid foundation in our beliefs by that time. So if the question refers to God using someone to do something, my kids can discuss that it's possible God used that person, but we really don't know because the Bible doesn't talk about that time period. :)

 

 

I agree with others that the plays are weird. I likely won't use them (I'd have to read them carefully before deciding for sure, and I'm far off from R level right now - my oldest is firmly UG!).

[mommaduck]

Ah, this makes more sense to me. But I'm not sure that what you heard was completely accurate. Often it is very easy for folks to hear what they themselves believe and then when repeating it to others make it sound like that whoever they are talking about is much more like the speaker than is really the case. Or the reverse to hear much more negative things than what is actually said. 

 

I know in my past I've been aware of situations where someone would hear a person speak on a subject and then when telling others what had been said, modify that to suit what they wanted to hear. And it can even go both ways where someone who wants to hear negative will hear even greater negative. 

 

Further, in regards to what you remember, lots of studies show this process is heavily involved in memory. Memory is extremely malleable. This doesn't mean anyone is doing it intentionally, but it does happen. 

 

Look at the change in your own beliefs from that time. You don't want us to believe someone who knew you then over what you DO now?

 

So, I think it is much more wise to look at the full picture in these cases and not rely on these intermediary memories and statements. 

 

While I understand your concerns about the Hinduism comments posted above, the fact is that most evangelical and fundamentalist Christians have those same beliefs, otherwise why evangelize at all? So in those remarks there is not some particular theology. 

Combine it all with who her husband works for and the people that backed them...it's more that it fits than that it's what I wanted to hear. Honestly, unless MS comes out and states that she is NOT a Calvinist or Reformed and does not believe in Dominionism or Theocracy, I'll continue with what I know from past dealings ;)

[teeniebeenie6]

I wonder if there is anyway to sign up for this without getting phone calls? Our phone service is just cell phones. We prepaid for ours to my in laws (we are part of a family plan) so I can't take long distance calls. It looks like a neat offer!

[ebrindam]

I haven't gotten a call yet...

[Candid]

Combine it all with who her husband works for and the people that backed them...it's more that it fits than that it's what I wanted to hear. Honestly, unless MS comes out and states that she is NOT a Calvinist or Reformed and does not believe in Dominionism or Theocracy, I'll continue with what I know from past dealings ;)

 

Well I think that's a far-fetched demand (made as it is on another board that I doubt she even reads), but you have clarified where you are coming from and your open-mindedness towards to curriculum which I think is quite helpful. 

[DawnM]

I tried TOG way back (4 years or so now, maybe 5) and it was just not for us.  We aren't Classical for one thing.  I have an LD son who really go frustrated with it.  We are not Reformed or even Calvinists, but I didn't take too much issue with their stance on that as I don't find it a deal breaker.   It was just too much for us.  Too much work for me as the teacher and too heavy for the kids.

 

We are more Charlotte Mason, I have to go with my LD son's needs, and it just wasn't a good fit for us.

[mommaduck]

Well I think that's a far-fetched demand (made as it is on another board that I doubt she even reads), but you have clarified where you are coming from and your open-mindedness towards to curriculum which I think is quite helpful. 

 

*sigh* you just don't get it. It's not a demand. The author's beliefs were full on discussion at one time and there were people that spoke directly with her to make certain that what we were getting was a REFORMED material. So either those people are LYING and you have information that states otherwise or you don't know and I can go on what my experience was from the past until the author states that her position is different or changed.

[ebrindam]

I'm curious how many will be using TOG going forward now? We will be (starting in fall) for sure!

[boscopup]

I'm curious how many will be using TOG going forward now? We will be (starting in fall) for sure!

We plan to continue this year. We're really enjoying it! I find it really easy to plan for my LG/UG kids. And I love that they are learning similar things each week but at their own input level. That alone is saving me lots of time from what I was doing before.

[Candid]

*sigh* you just don't get it. It's not a demand. The author's beliefs were full on discussion at one time and there were people that spoke directly with her to make certain that what we were getting was a REFORMED material. So either those people are LYING and you have information that states otherwise or you don't know and I can go on what my experience was from the past until the author states that her position is different or changed.

 

Hmmm, well it certainly read like a demand. 

 

I did respond to what you said by a series of arguments none of which you've really respond to above except to claim that I am saying people are lying. That's not what I said. Instead I've implied both that it is possible that people heard what they wanted to hear and potentially that they expanded what they heard when they repeated it (or made it more black and white). Further, I've also said that it is possible your own memory is inaccurate, there's plenty of scientific evidence to support that in regards to memory. 

 

I suspect this is why the Bible relies so heavily in its own civil code on first hand witnesses and not repeated evidence. Even in our own legal system, which is much less strict, hearsay evidence is generally inadmissible. 

 

But you have I think made it clear to me that when you entered this thread that there was little anyone could do to change your mind. Kathryn posted several long and detailed posts showing you the current fruit of Tapestry, but because neither she nor I can offer any personal statement from the author that isn't good enough which is a shame because the fruit evidence  is pretty good and it's not hearsay. 

 

As I have said to other poster, it's a shame this thread has gone so far off track. It was started as a way to share a pretty darn good deal. Instead it's been a bit of a kerfuffle. 

[mommaduck]

Hmmm, well it certainly read like a demand. 

 

I did respond to what you said by a series of arguments none of which you've really respond to above except to claim that I am saying people are lying. That's not what I said. Instead I've implied both that it is possible that people heard what they wanted to hear and potentially that they expanded what they heard when they repeated it (or made it more black and white). Further, I've also said that it is possible your own memory is inaccurate, there's plenty of scientific evidence to support that in regards to memory. 

 

I suspect this is why the Bible relies so heavily in its own civil code on first hand witnesses and not repeated evidence. Even in our own legal system, which is much less strict, hearsay evidence is generally inadmissible. 

 

But you have I think made it clear to me that when you entered this thread that there was little anyone could do to change your mind. Kathryn posted several long and detailed posts showing you the current fruit of Tapestry, but because neither she nor I can offer any personal statement from the author that isn't good enough which is a shame because the fruit evidence  is pretty good and it's not hearsay. 

 

As I have said to other poster, it's a shame this thread has gone so far off track. It was started as a way to share a pretty darn good deal. Instead it's been a bit of a kerfuffle. 

 

I think you read a lot of people wrong. That has been obvious from the outset. You take things extremely literal and not really listen to what is actually being shared. Yes, I know you have made implications. Those are not exactly appreciative and can be considered demeaning in it's delivery. I have a very good long term memory, tyvm. Presumptions are unnecessary and unhelpful.

 

It is fine if you choose not to agree.

 

Apparently, you have not read the conversation between Kathryn and I properly. If anything, YOU were making me not want to give TOG a second change. Kathryn DID. Much was in delivery and attitude. Kathryn was communicative in a kind manner. Kathryn also knows that there were some issues behind the scenes and I communicated that with her in private. She was very gracious; not legalistic. Kathryn also understands what exactly I would be concerned about as she is Orthodox. Kathryn never tried to claim that the author wasn't Reformed, nor did she address that particular issue (as the issue is more about how much of it shows in the material and how easy would it be for a Christian that isn't Reformed to change and use).

[SorrelZG]

*sigh* you just don't get it. It's not a demand. The author's beliefs were full on discussion at one time and there were people that spoke directly with her to make certain that what we were getting was a REFORMED material. So either those people are LYING and you have information that states otherwise or you don't know and I can go on what my experience was from the past until the author states that her position is different or changed.

When I first looked into ToG a few years ago I read something in which it was communicated what church she attended and who her pastor was (at the time). I can't find that or anything else about it now to know of it is still the case. One would think such specifics unnecessary but a simple label like "reformed" or "dominionist" doesn't always give a clear impression. For instance, I would consider myself "reformed" or "Calvinist" but what I've learned about certain churches/teachers whom I thought were of like mind inclines me to not want any connection or association (as one random example, I strongly not a reconstructionist).

 

I was looking at ToG specifically because of concerns over the connections with certain teachers/teachings of other curricula but without more specific information (which I cannot seem to find online whereas I have found where the other curricula has discussed their associations somewhat) I guess I am back to considering both options on a level plane meaning a whole lot more reading for me which I was hoping for a convenient way out of. Thank you for bursting my bubble. :)

[mommaduck]

 TOGcomes from a Reformed Protestant viewpoint, but it respectfully tries to include Orthodox and Catholic views as it explores Church history. Consequently, TOG should be easier for those of the latter religious persuasions to adapt than many other unit studies might be.

 

http://cathyduffyreviews.com/unit-studies/tapestry-of-grace.htm

 

 

Reformed site, Reformed book, reviews by those that are Reformed

http://spurgeon.wordpress.com/tony-reinke-lit-a-christian-guide-to-reading-books-1433522268/

 

 

And, yes, from what I'm reading online, it seems that Marcia Somerville avoids directly discussing any Reformed views online other than to try to chalk it up to a "pros and cons as with other theological views", which is a smart business move on her part. However, having been Reformed, it's not terribly difficult to see things that others may not. At one time it was discussed more openly. There have been bumps that have come with running a business and it seems she has overcome them.

[Candid]

http://cathyduffyreviews.com/unit-studies/tapestry-of-grace.htm

 

 

 

 

 

Reformed site, Reformed book, reviews by those that are Reformed

http://spurgeon.wordpress.com/tony-reinke-lit-a-christian-guide-to-reading-books-1433522268/

 

 

Actually this is the author of the book's blog. I can see why he gave the book to Ms. Summerville to review, but I'm not sure that makes her curriculum reformed, heck, I'm not sure even if he is reformed if that makes his book reformed. Have you read it? I had it on my own reading list when it came out, but I never have enough time to read everything on that.  Here's what she said about his book

 

 

 

Since God has chosen that ideas are best expressed in words, and that THE IDEA—the  revelation of His Son as Lord and Savior—is to be learned through His timeless and matchless Word, Christians dare not lose sight of the primacy of books amidst the torrent of fast-moving, visual images of our culture. Tony Reinke compelling argues from Scripture and lessons he has learned in life that “reading is a way to preserve and cultivate the sustained linear concentration we need for life.†As an educator, I couldn’t agree more! Sustained reading must remain the heartbeat of any worthy educational program that seeks to produce Christian thinkers, leaders, and apologists. Homeschooling parents who are trying to craft reading lists as they raise Christian children will find gracious and principled guidance here. More, Tony offers great ideas for parents to foster a love for reading, beginning with their own example.

 

 

Now back to your quote, I'm sorry I can't title it that way, but I'm having issue with quotes today:

 

 

And, yes, from what I'm reading online, it seems that Marcia Somerville avoids directly discussing any Reformed views online other than to try to chalk it up to a "pros and cons as with other theological views", which is a smart business move on her part. However, having been Reformed, it's not terribly difficult to see things that others may not. At one time it was discussed more openly. There have been bumps that have come with running a business and it seems she has overcome them.

 

Or maybe, like our website hostess, she has tried her best to write a fairly open protestant curriculum and doesn't really feel that her own particular flavor of personal church attendance is relevant. She's open about her Christanity, her protestant flavor that is enough. And as Duffy notes, she tries hard to include positive works of less closely aligned Christian groups like Orthodox and RC. 

 

Is Tapestry Christian? Yes! Does it include negative references to other world views? Yes. Is that in the materials for grammar students? Mostly not. However Dialectic and Rhetoric students are expected to think about this in detail and be prepared to defend their statements with points of fact. 

 

In the end, I really like Tapestry of Grace, I have said on many, many threads that it is a protestant Christian curriculum. The Hinduism quotes from above certainly show that clearly. They believe Christians should have a missionary bent, you will detect that when they are dealing with other world views. This is a common protestant worldview. 

 

They also believe Christians should have ethics and you will also detect that when they deal with certain historical figures and ask your children to think about those figure's historical actions and what the Bible might say about them. I like this. 

 

How difficult all this is to transform will depend, I expect, a lot on the person doing the transformation. I have certainly seen that some people, Christian and secular, never want to hear a word outside their own world view. If that is you, either Christian or secular, Tapestry of Grace is not for you, for it is filled to the very brim with discussions about those views. Nor do they just provide neat summaries of world views from either their own point of view or from a "textbook" type of book. Instead they will ask you and your oldest students to open works of literature and government and worldview and grapple with their authors who will often be the best and brightest a particular worldview can offer: Machiavelli, Kafka, Goethe, Shakespeare, Conrad, and many more. They all speak directly to you if you use Tapestry. And Tapestry won't hesitate to join the great conversation and speak directly back in a protestant Christian language. 

[gerka528]

For anyone who has gotten the free unit, does it come with the map aids and all of the extras?  I can open the curriculum, but not anything else, so I'm just checking.

[SorrelZG]

For anyone who has gotten the free unit, does it come with the map aids and all of the extras?  I can open the curriculum, but not anything else, so I'm just checking.

 

It appears those have to be purchased in addition (I only checked Map Aids and Writing Aids).

[blessed3x]

I'm curious how many will be using TOG going forward now? We will be (starting in fall) for sure!

 

 

I plan to use it with ds11 but will be using some sections this year and start the full curriculum next fall.

[gerka528]

It appears those have to be purchased in addition (I only checked Map Aids and Writing Aids).

 Thank you!

[mommaduck]

(deleted because anyone is capable of googling...the Somervilles are part of Covenant Life Church associated with Sovereign Grace Ministries, unless they have recently left)

[mommaduck]

Actually this is the author of the book's blog. I can see why he gave the book to Ms. Summerville to review, but I'm not sure that makes her curriculum reformed, heck, I'm not sure even if he is reformed if that makes his book reformed. Have you read it? I had it on my own reading list when it came out, but I never have enough time to read everything on that.  Here's what she said about his book

 

 

Again, I was part of the Reformed community. I know the names. I know websites and their affiliations. Anything new that has cropped up is fairly easy to distinguish. I tell you what, look up every name in the list on your own if you need a proof trail. The fact that you don't recognise the names, tells me you don't know much about Reformed or the people involved in it. I do. I was a moderator for years on a very well known Reformed site. I know many known Reformed ministers and seminary professors personally. If you want to play "follow the rabbit trail" you are welcome to do so. I won't waste any more of my time with this nonsense. From the church association the Somerville's have, I can see why they would try to keep it separate from their business. 

 

You admit they are Protestant Christian. I have to wonder why you are so adamant to pretend they aren't Reformed "give me proof, I've haven't seen proof, I wasn't there, give me proof" Honey, the proof is there...google is your friend if you know how to use it. If you want to be in denial, that's your problem. If someone sees the need to hide it, then I have to wonder why. If they are Reformed and aren't ashamed of it, then no problem...happy for them and it let's others know what bit of bias may show through here and there (everyone has a bias and even when trying our best, it will show at some point...this is not always a "negative" thing).

 

 

Will I consider purchasing from them in the future? I don't know. I have to weigh it out given some things that have apparently happened in recent years (you know, since I'm a Christian and have Christian ethics, do I want to support them in light of some of what I have learned? )

 

ETA: Just so people know, my point was that for some association and background on authors does matter to some people and people may want to research. I tried to be brief. Candid wanting EVIDENCE...well, the dirty laundry just got dragged out. In fact, Kathryn nearly had me convinced to try it...but digging around google brought out some things I had forgotten and new things that I was unaware of. Thank you, Candid, for the challenge. Now I know what I have to consider when deciding where my money will go.

[swellmomma]

I'm curious how many will be using TOG going forward now? We will be (starting in fall) for sure!

 

I am not sure yet.  I have plans to use the free unit after xmas break(have to finish up what we are doing now).  I have drooled over it for years and so this will be the real test.  I am not using it with my youngers, they will stay with konos for a few more years yet.  But looking at my unit I am thinking it will be a great fit for dd14 for high school level work that really challenges her.  Up until now she has had to go with what works for ds15 because I taught them together and he has lots of issues so it wasn't really making her rise to the occasion.  Now I will still be able to teach them both but she can do R level and he can do D and she won't be held back by him anymore but he won't feel that he is getting the short end of the stick or too stupid etc.  D level is still adequate for his high school experience as a spec ed student.  As long as things go well with this unit after xmas we will likely stick with TOG right through graduation for both(in 3 years) and at that time my next in line will be ready for D stage (right now as a 4th grader he would only be ready for LG due to his multiple learning issues.  Konos solves that for us)

[KnitWit]

Candid,

 

I am Presbyterian (reformed and calvinist...NOT recontructionist/dominionist).  I use TOG and have for several years (my eldest is a senior in college now).  I don't understand your argument.  TOG is most definitely a curriculum written from a reformed protestant perspective.  I think it's important for people to know that.  Can and do user tweak TOG?  Yes!  As good as a potential fit it is for my family, I do a fair amount of tweaking myself!  

 

TOG is expensive and time consuming.  If I were not a protestant Christian, I truly doubt that I would be willing to pay the money for TOG and then have to spend additional time tweaking it.  I would recommend TWTM as a foundation.  (I already lean more toward TWTM, using TOG to "flesh that out" for my fogbrain.)  The value in the $$ spent on TOG, in my opinion, is in the teacher's notes that help me in the discussion time with my kids if I have not had the time to read the selections they read.  (Even then, I sometimes come up against something that I point out that we disagree with and go from there, but my gap is not as wide as many of you who are asking questions here)  Again, I do a bit of tweaking, which is additionally time consuming for me.  These notes come in for the dialectic and rhetoric level students.  There is value in buying TOG for younger students in that you, AND they, learn the ropes before the heavier assignments come into play if you are going to continue forward to the end,  otherwise, in my opinion, it's overkill for younger students.   

 

It is NOT my desire to bash TOG.  It IS my desire to put myself in the shoes of people who are trying to make a big decision about a large amount of money to spend on a curriculum where updates are constantly being put out and books are constantly changing.  If you buy your books, you are insulated against all the updates.  But many people suggest TOG and how easy it is to use the library.  For many, it's not.  

 

I'm just trying to be honest here for the sake of moms who may be where *we* are financially.  Hope this helps.

[mommaduck]

Last post:

 

There ARE very positive things to TOG. I'm not Anti-TOG. I'm actually considering. It irks me when people don't listen to what is actually being said, especially when some have concerns about whether it's right for them. TOG is not right for EVERYBODY...just a basic fact. No curriculum can make that claim. Each family is different and that is partially why people homeschool. If you can't flesh out the concerns, you aren't likely to get people to want to use the curriculum. If you flesh out the concerns, rather than ignore them, some will be able to overcome their concerns and others will just receive validation that it may not be for them.

 

And I'm not anti-Reformed people. Certain branches of thought within Reformed, yes. Reformed in general, no....I just don't happen to be Reformed anymore.

[indigomama]

I'm curious how many will be using TOG going forward now? We will be (starting in fall) for sure!

 

 

I really like what I've seen so far, but I am hesitating because of the price. I like the options and the ability to also make a schedule from those options fairly easily. I like the teacher notes, but if we use something else for writing and geography it seems pricey for just a history program. Then again, I really like the Teacher's notes. 

 

I picked a unit that will line up with where we are going to be starting next week, so I'm going to use it for a while and see how it goes.

 

Oh, and I need to check how many books our smaller library carries. Because buying all the books would be yet another big expense. 

[Candid]

Candid,

 

I am Presbyterian (reformed and calvinist...NOT recontructionist/dominionist).  I use TOG and have for several years (my eldest is a senior in college now).  I don't understand your argument.  TOG is most definitely a curriculum written from a reformed protestant perspective.  I think it's important for people to know that.  Can and do user tweak TOG?  Yes!  As good as a potential fit it is for my family, I do a fair amount of tweaking myself!  

 

TOG is expensive and time consuming.  If I were not a protestant Christian, I truly doubt that I would be willing to pay the money for TOG and then have to spend additional time tweaking it.  I would recommend TWTM as a foundation.  (I already lean more toward TWTM, using TOG to "flesh that out" for my fogbrain.)  The value in the $$ spent on TOG, in my opinion, is in the teacher's notes that help me in the discussion time with my kids if I have not had the time to read the selections they read.  (Even then, I sometimes come up against something that I point out that we disagree with and go from there, but my gap is not as wide as many of you who are asking questions here)  Again, I do a bit of tweaking, which is additionally time consuming for me.  These notes come in for the dialectic and rhetoric level students.  There is value in buying TOG for younger students in that you, AND they, learn the ropes before the heavier assignments come into play if you are going to continue forward to the end,  otherwise, in my opinion, it's overkill for younger students.   

 

It is NOT my desire to bash TOG.  It IS my desire to put myself in the shoes of people who are trying to make a big decision about a large amount of money to spend on a curriculum where updates are constantly being put out and books are constantly changing.  If you buy your books, you are insulated against all the updates.  But many people suggest TOG and how easy it is to use the library.  For many, it's not.  

 

I'm just trying to be honest here for the sake of moms who may be where *we* are financially.  Hope this helps.

 

You are probably quite correct, however, I do encourage you to go back and read the very first post about this and my own response. Then read that first sentence in the post made to my response. And the the first sentence of the next response to me. I made a mistake not addressing those immediately. 

 

I stand by my first response, the first post was over the top. The very content of this thread has proved that. 

 

I disagree with you that the content of Tapestry is reformed. It is protestant, but reformed, I've yet to find anything that jumped out at me as being that.

 

But we'd have to go through a process of defining terms to be able to decide what content would be reformed beyond protestant content. Since I think this thread has gone way to far afield, I would ask you that you start a spin off thread. 

 

But that is not why I got sucked into this mess and my biggest mistake has not sticking more closely to my original point and pointing out the poor spirit of early posts made in response to me. 

[Candid]

ETA: Just so people know, my point was that for some association and background on authors does matter to some people and people may want to research. I tried to be brief. Candid wanting EVIDENCE...well, the dirty laundry just got dragged out. In fact, Kathryn nearly had me convinced to try it...but digging around google brought out some things I had forgotten and new things that I was unaware of. Thank you, Candid, for the challenge. Now I know what I have to consider when deciding where my money will go.

 

I'm disappointed that of all my point you pick this one as the last to respond to:

 

 

 

Actually this is the author of the book's blog. I can see why he gave the book to Ms. Summerville to review, but I'm not sure that makes her curriculum reformed, heck, I'm not sure even if he is reformed if that makes his book reformed. Have you read it? I had it on my own reading list when it came out, but I never have enough time to read everything on that.  Here's what she said about his book

 

This tells me I haven't been very clear. I hear you when you say that association and background matters for some people. It does not for me. I have been too expansive in answering points I should never have gotten into. It's a flaw of mine. 

 

I like to take people and things as I find them. And I'll be honest that I find this kind of guilt by association to be bad reasoning. In my book it's an ad hominem attack. As I have said in my last post, I should have dealt with that problem earlier instead of trying to refute the attack. Big mistake on my part. Would it have changed things on this thread? Don't know. As I have said before it has been quite a kerfuffle. 

[mommaduck]

Love playing the victim, don't you. I didn't choose to focus on that particular part of a post. You've been arguing the entire thread that the Somervilles aren't Reformed and that you haven't ever seen or had anyone show you evidence of it. I've proven it and now you choose to play the victim and redirect. You apparently pick and choose what to read into people's posts. 

 

You posted about a freebie.

Various people ordered the freebies.

Some came back with concerns.

You tried to knock down everyone that had a concern.

You started declaring things that you obviously had no knowledge of and couldn't just admit that you didn't know and others might actually know something that you don't.

Now you are playing the victim card.

[KnitWit]

But we'd have to go through a process of defining terms to be able to decide what content would be reformed beyond protestant content. Since I think this thread has gone way to far afield, I would ask you that you start a spin off thread. 

 

 

No, I'm not interested in devoting time to this.  I said it is "written from a reformed protestant perspective" because the Somerville family is "protestant" and "reformed" and have been members of a Sovereign Grace church, which is "protestant" and "reformed", and even sold books by CJ Mahaney, who is also "protestant" and "reformed", on their website for encouraging teachers.   Catholic and Orthodox families will absolutely want to know it is from this perspective.  I am not defending anything.  I'm stating facts. 

 

The bulk of my post was mainly to be informative and helpful to people seeking an honest answer so they can make the best decision for their own family regarding how much they are willing to have to tweak the curriculum for it to be a fit in relation to how much they are going to spend.  

[KnitWit]

Okay, I looked at your links.  I'm still not understanding your argument.  What Mergath said is TRUE.  Tapestry of Grace is written from a Christian worldview.  Other religions are studied from the perspective of a Christian, if you study it as written.  (And dare I add that our Catholic and Orthodox friends would say a "reformed" Christian worldview? ;) )

 

My point is that I don't understand why this is an argument.  This board has many, many who are not Christian and they just want to know if this is a curriculum that could be a good fit for their family.  I'm saying that while I know people who are trying their darndest to tweak it, it is decidedly Christian.  Therefore, if someone wants secular, they need to know that they are going to have to invest a considerable amount of time on top of their considerable financial investment, to have what they want.  This will not be an "open the notebook and read the teacher notes if you didn't get the book read" kind of thing for them...because the teacher's notes are not a neutral perspective.  

[Candid]

No, I'm not interested in devoting time to this.  I said it is "written from a reformed protestant perspective" because the Somerville family is "protestant" and "reformed" and have been members of a Sovereign Grace church, which is "protestant" and "reformed", and even sold books by CJ Mahaney, who is also "protestant" and "reformed", on their website for encouraging teachers.   Catholic and Orthodox families will absolutely want to know it is from this perspective.  I am not defending anything.  I'm stating facts. 

 

The bulk of my post was mainly to be informative and helpful to people seeking an honest answer so they can make the best decision for their own family regarding how much they are willing to have to tweak the curriculum for it to be a fit in relation to how much they are going to spend.  

 

Notice, I didn't say I'd join such a thread ;)

[Candid]

Okay, I looked at your links.  I'm still not understanding your argument.  What Mergath said is TRUE.  Tapestry of Grace is written from a Christian worldview.  Other religions are studied from the perspective of a Christian, if you study it as written.  (And dare I add that our Catholic and Orthodox friends would say a "reformed" Christian worldview? ;) )

 

My point is that I don't understand why this is an argument.  This board has many, many who are not Christian and they just want to know if this is a curriculum that could be a good fit for their family.  I'm saying that while I know people who are trying their darndest to tweak it, it is decidedly Christian.  Therefore, if someone wants secular, they need to know that they are going to have to invest a considerable amount of time on top of their considerable financial investment, to have what they want.  This will not be an "open the notebook and read the teacher notes if you didn't get the book read" kind of thing for them...because the teacher's notes are not a neutral perspective.  

 

No actually what Megarth said is not true. The best someone could come up with in a pure counting is 13 pages with references to Christianity. That is in no way, shape or form every other page of a 60 page plan.

[Kathryn]

Okay, I'm going to outline the things that have jumped out at me in TOG as 1) someone who was an atheist until five years ago, 2) who then joined a liberal Episcopalian church for almost four years, and 3) has been at an Orthodox church for a little over a year (in other words, having never been an evangelical Protestant).

 

- there have been several instances of describing other, non-Christian civilizations that were advanced as examples of God's "common grace." Had I not thoroughly investigated TOG beforehand and found out that the authors were Reformed and then investigated what exactly Reformed is, I would not catch onto what they were meaning by this. But, this apparently is a Reformed thing. As far as I can tell, this is the only thing that sticks out to me as Reformed and not just general Protestant evangelical.

 

- there is talk of the error of non-Christian religions and how to spot their errors and defend Christianity in the Worldview material. I don't specifically recall seeing that in the History section, but I may be wrong on that.

 

- The Church History and Worldview sections obviously have a Protestant Christian bias. We use some of it and don't use some of it.

 

- they point out when people are behaving like Christians or not. This isn't something I'm used to (judging the "Christian-ness" of others) and I generally just ignore.

 

- they talk about God's "plan" a lot--not in a "we know what God wants and this is in His plan and this isn't" kind of way, but by way of pointing out that everything that happens, whether it seems good or bad, is all part of God's overarching plan for humanity.

 

ETA: thus far, I have not seen anything that seemed to promote one flavor of Christianity over another (ie. saying that Catholicism or Orthodoxy or their practices were wrong).

[mommaduck]

Just for a recap...just one week from the unit (and it was TracyP, not Mergath, that pulled the page numbers, since we're being technical ;) )

 

 

Quick peak through my week 10:

 

Pages 1, 2, 5, 6, 10, 11, 15, 17, 18, 21, 22, 25, 26 would need tweaking for a secular user. I'm not taking the time to read the whole week or pull quotes (it is all the same stuff that Mergath posted anyway), but it seems that "every other page" would be a fair statement. Year 1 is the hardest year to secularize. Some weeks within year one are harder to secularize than others.

 

I am a Christian who has used TOG for several years. I have absolutely zero problem saying that TOG has a whole boatload of Christian content and it is hard to secularize. Doable? Yes, I absolutely think so. Am I surprised that many others would think it is just not worth their time? Not at all.

 

[Candid]

Love playing the victim, don't you. I didn't choose to focus on that particular part of a post. You've been arguing the entire thread that the Somervilles aren't Reformed and that you haven't ever seen or had anyone show you evidence of it. I've proven it and now you choose to play the victim and redirect. You apparently pick and choose what to read into people's posts. 

 

You posted about a freebie.

Various people ordered the freebies.

Some came back with concerns.

You tried to knock down everyone that had a concern.

You started declaring things that you obviously had no knowledge of and couldn't just admit that you didn't know and others might actually know something that you don't.

Now you are playing the victim card.

 

I stand by my first post. And as I have posted quotes over and over now late in this thread, there's been some pretty personal attacks that had absolutely nothing to do with my arguments.

 

For the record here's my first post:

 

 

This strikes me as hyperbole in the extreme. I've used every unit of Tapestry and this isn't even close to correct. 

 

However, Mergath does pinpoint where Tapestry will appear to be Christian: when they are dealing with other religions. Is that really a surprise to anyone? 

 

Added a bit later: The books used by Tapestry are majority secular including most of those on other religions, for instance, they use the Usborne book of world religions. Most references to Christianity will occur in the instructional materials for the parent making this a super easy program to switch out. 

 

Further, some questions which may strike the secular user as Christian are actual those of ethics, and might easily be switched to generic ethical questions presuming a similar ethical set.

 

However, most such questions do not occur in the materials directed at grammar aged children but at Dialectic and Rhetoric students who should be in the process of being challenged to process all such issues anyway. 

 

 

Back when I was a teenager arguing with my brother, I noticed that he went to name calling when he couldn't debate my arguments. I should have recognized that same pattern here and called it early on. BUT now even calling it late in the thread I'm still being called names instead of having ideas debated. 

 

Notice, not the ideas that people say I am making but the one I began with. That's my argument. I made a mistake following other people's arguments. I regret that, but I'll stick with my first argument. 

 

Am I wrong that attacking a person because of their associations is an ad hominem attack? Am I wrong that saying some one is defensive, or a shill or playing a victim card are all ad hominem attacks? If so use good solid arguments to show me where I am wrong. Nope, I'm just calling the rhetorical device for what it is. I know I've seen that in other threads on this board. 

 

Stop calling names and use arguments or do what you said and stop. 

[Candid]

Okay, I'm going to outline the things that have jumped out at me in TOG as 1) someone who was an atheist until five years ago, 2) who then joined a liberal Episcopalian church for almost four years, and 3) has been at an Orthodox church for a little over a year (in other words, having never been an evangelical Protestant).

 

- there have been several instances of describing other, non-Christian civilizations that were advanced as examples of God's "common grace." Had I not thoroughly investigated TOG beforehand and found out that the authors were Reformed and then investigated what exactly Reformed is, I would not catch onto what they were meaning by this. But, this apparently is a Reformed thing. As far as I can tell, this is the only thing that sticks out to me as Reformed and not just general Protestant evangelical.

 

- there is talk of the error of non-Christian religions and how to spot their errors and defend Christianity in the Worldview material. I don't specifically recall seeing that in the History section, but I may be wrong on that.

 

- The Church History and Worldview sections obviously have a Protestant Christian bias. We use some of it and don't use some of it.

 

- they point out when people are behaving like Christians or not. This isn't something I'm used to (judging the "Christian-ness" of others) and I generally just ignore.

 

- they talk about God's "plan" a lot--not in a "we know what God wants and this is in His plan and this isn't" kind of way, but by way of pointing out that everything that happens, whether it seems good or bad, is all part of God's overarching plan for humanity.

 

I agree with most of what you have said here. I've bolded the one thing I think is incorrect. Here's a quote found at Wikipedia:

 

 

 

Both Calvinists and Arminians generally accept the concept of common grace in that there are undeserved blessings which God extends to all mankind. 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_grace#Between_Calvinism_and_Arminianism

 

If you read the whole article you'll see they divide common grace down even more, but the way in which Tapestry uses it is common to most protestant theology. 

 

However, I'm not surprised that you had not heard it before. It's not exactly a much preached bit of theology just kind of a background thread. 

[mommaduck]

It's called a DISCUSSION...not a formal debate. I'm also not calling names....oh, I did call the authors Reformed (which is NOT an insult). Stating their association is not an attack. It's a fact. A very important one to many people.

[mommaduck]

 

However, I'm not surprised that you had not heard it before. It's not exactly a much preached bit of theology just kind of a background thread. 

 

Apparently, you don't know Reformed theology very well. GRACE is preached ALL the time. In fact, it's why they name things as they do (Sovereign Grace, Tapestry of Grace, Grace Community, etc)

[Kathryn]

I agree with most of what you have said here. I've bolded the one thing I think is incorrect. Here's a quote found at Wikipedia:

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_grace#Between_Calvinism_and_Arminianism

 

If you read the whole article you'll see they divide common grace down even more, but the way in which Tapestry uses it is common to most protestant theology. 

 

However, I'm not surprised that you had not heard it before. It's not exactly a much preached bit of theology just kind of a background thread. 

 

Check Year 1, Week 1, p. 44, Bible Survey and Church History: Background Information. It is available for free online for everyone as part of the Go to Egypt mini-unit that is always offered for free.

 

The discussion of common grace and special grace makes it very clear that they are, in fact, using the term in the Reformed sense.

[mommaduck]

Thanks to Kathryn, Polly, and others, I'm willing to give the new DE's a try. They have spoken with me here and privately and I have very much appreciated their honesty and assistance in talking about my own, more personal concerns.

[Mergath]

No actually what Megarth said is not true. The best someone could come up with in a pure counting is 13 pages with references to Christianity. That is in no way, shape or form every other page of a 60 page plan.

 

Good lord, Candid.  If you keep this up, people are going to start talking about us. :blush:

 

I am flattered that you can't stop thinking about me, though.

[JadeOrchidSong]

We are doing Year 1 with the print plan. I want to try Year 2 Unit 1 DE. I went to the website and only saw Go to Egypt, and The New World 3 week DE sample options. So where should I go to find the free one DE unit? Thanks!

[mommaduck]

We are doing Year 1 with the print plan. I want to try Year 2 Unit 1 DE. I went to the website and only saw Go to Egypt, and The New World 3 week DE sample options. So where should I go to find the free one DE unit? Thanks!

 

Original post on the first page....Candid posted a link ;)

[KnitWit]

We are doing Year 1 with the print plan. I want to try Year 2 Unit 1 DE. I went to the website and only saw Go to Egypt, and The New World 3 week DE sample options. So where should I go to find the free one DE unit? Thanks!

 

The link says it's for new customers only.  I was bummed because I have all print plans and I was interested in the DE.  

[mommaduck]

The link says it's for new customers only.  I was bummed because I have all print plans and I was interested in the DE.  

 

I found that you can download the sample weeks GoToEgypt and SailToTheNewWorld in DE format. I just did this for both and am playing with them.

[freesia]

The link says it's for new customers only.  I was bummed because I have all print plans and I was interested in the DE.

If you bought them from Lampstand, you can upgrade for 30 or 35 dollars.

[KnitWit]

If you bought them from Lampstand, you can upgrade for 30 or 35 dollars.

I know!  But...I'm not so sure I want to.  I like paper and I don't know what I'm missing.  I was just thinking that I might decide I want to know what I'm missing. lol  :)

[freesia]

I know!  But...I'm not so sure I want to.  I like paper and I don't know what I'm missing.  I was just thinking that I might decide I want to know what I'm missing. lol   :)

Then stick with paper. I have both and still prefer the paper (and print out anything I do need). I only bought the DE bc I couldn't find the paper on a discount for 2 units. I will probably buy the upgrades the second time through but really only to get updates.

[JadeOrchidSong]

Original post on the first page....Candid posted a link ;)

Dumb me:-)

I just sent in my request. Thanks for the help!

My print version of Year 1 and lots of books are loaned to me by a total stranger. I feel so blessed!