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Isn't the whole selling point of this curriculum that it can be used over and over as the child grows?  Even if the LG part is light on the religion, it just gets worse as the kid gets older.  I was looking at the whole thing, assuming that.  I don't know anyone who would buy it just to use it for the lower grades, secular or religious. 

 

Yes, it is, but as the mom of a 17 and 14 year old, I can tell you that challenging your child with hard questions and comparing world views is what you do as they get older. I don't want to hold back on that. And that is exactly what Tapestry does. When they suggest in this week plan the older students should have a small debate on two fairly controversial statements that compare Christianity and Hinduism, the first thing they do is have the students turn to dictionaries and define terms. Exactly, in my view, what you want to do with students at that age. BUT not what you would do with a young child like yours. So I understand why you think this would be terrible later on, but it's not in my opinon. This is exactly the kind of discussion anyone who wants to be part of the great conversation must do. And as I said right off the bat to your first post, is it a surprise that Tapestry doesn't agree with HInduism?

 

I think what Beth points out about the difference between a middle school and high school level curriculum is dead on. You can't compare such programs to programs for young children. What seems difficult to secularize now maybe exactly what is needed for older students. 

 

As a matter of fact, why I left Sonlight after the Eastern Hemisphere program was because their questions lacked depth. I'll never forget reading the first reader of the year which had lots of interesting material: the boy feels caught between two gods, he has three life and death struggles with animals, and is chased by cannibals, but when I turned to Sonlight's questions they were asking questions like how did he make clothing? Argh! Sure it was easy to secularize, but it was just rote recall. No beginning logic stage requirement at all. 

 

 

 

I don't know why you're making such a thing out of this.  A secular hser asked for opinions.  As a secular hser, I gave her mine.  You became very upset because, apparently, I was unaware that I'm not allowed to have an opinion.  Perhaps we should just leave it at that, because pissing contests about who overprepares the most aren't getting us anywhere.

 

I don't think I'm making a big deal, but I am not willing to let misinformation stand. What I am doing is providing facts about the actual percentage of Christian content in a highly religious week in the plan. That's why I did the chart, because I wanted to make sure I wasn't doing what you claim Christians are doing, overlooking things casually. The chart was a device to show me and others the amount of Christian content. You said half the pages have it. I verified that was not so. If you disagree, I would be happy to compare a chart of yours to mine, apples to apples. 

 

You are certainly allowed to have an opinion, but I see a difference between that statement and opinion. It was a factual statement that could be verified. I verified. 

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Yes, it is, but as the mom of a 17 and 14 year old, I can tell you that challenging your child with hard questions and comparing world views is what you do as they get older. I don't want to hold back on that. And that is exactly what Tapestry does. When they suggest in this week plan the older students should have a small debate on two fairly controversial statements that compare Christianity and Hinduism, the first thing they do is have the students turn to dictionaries and define terms. Exactly, in my view, what you want to do with students at that age. BUT not what you would do with a young child like yours. So I understand why you think this would be terrible later on, but it's not in my opinon. This is exactly the kind of discussion anyone who wants to be part of the great conversation must do. And as I said right off the bat to your first post, is it a surprise that Tapestry doesn't agree with HInduism?

 

I think what Beth points out about the difference between a middle school and high school level curriculum is dead on. You can't compare such programs to programs for young children. What seems difficult to secularize now maybe exactly what is needed for older students.

 

As a matter of fact, why I left Sonlight after the Eastern Hemisphere program was because their questions lacked depth. I'll never forget reading the first reader of the year which had lots of interesting material: the boy feels caught between two gods, he has three life and death struggles with animals, and is chased by cannibals, but when I turned to Sonlight's questions they were asking questions like how did he make clothing? Argh! Sure it was easy to secularize, but it was just rote recall. No beginning logic stage requirement at all.

 

 

I don't think I'm making a big deal, but I am not willing to let misinformation stand. What I am doing is providing facts about the actual percentage of Christian content in a highly religious week in the plan. That's why I did the chart, because I wanted to make sure I wasn't doing what you claim Christians are doing, overlooking things casually. The chart was a device to show me and others the amount of Christian content. You said half the pages have it. I verified that was not so. If you disagree, I would be happy to compare a chart of yours to mine, apples to apples.

 

You are certainly allowed to have an opinion, but I see a difference between that statement and opinion. It was a factual statement that could be verified. I verified.

It's not misinformation. We simply disagree on what constitutes content a secular hser would likely want to omit. I could just as easily say it's you spreading misinformation, but I'm just not that rude, I suppose. But kudos for demonstrating what a secular hser will have to deal with if they come here to talk about ToG. You've probably warned them off much more effectively than the free unit.

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You mention your daughter is 5 and the character training program "Laying Down the Rails."  I think the difference comes in that you are comparing TOG to Kindergarten and elementary school programs you have looked at, or used.

 

I wonder, how many high school Christian programs you have looked through?  Indeed looking through Sonlight's early years, it might seem easy to secularize, but same with TOG.  The bulk of the TOG teacher's guide is meant to prepare a parent for teaching the higher levels.  In the early years, children are just learning the basic facts, across all curriculums.  Once you get into high school, you start approaching philosophy and actually being able to defend your religion -- knowing why you believe is right.  It is every Christian parent's goal that this is solidified during their child's later schooling.  Not many people set their K, or early elementary student, up to defend their faith the same way.  I'm sure Sonlight is the same way as TOG, if not stressing this even more in their high school program.  To accurately compare curriculums, you have to compare the right things.

 

My daughter is in K, as well, and we use TOG.  I haven't even touched on any of the teacher notes, yet.  They are just too much right now, and my daughter is getting enough information from the books she is reading.  I mean, this is her first round of exposure to all the information, so there is no need to inundate her with information.  The program was not written for kindergarteners or early elementary school.  In the beginning, it wasn't even recommended for them.  Marcia saw the need to wrap the whole family into the same study and the revisions bulked up the lower levels, so that families can use TOG as a solid program K-12.  In knowing this, the teacher notes weren't designed to walk the early elementary parent through their child's schooling.

 

Both Laying Down the Rails and Honey for the Child's heart are directed at younger children.  I don't think you can really compare these things to TOG, which is a thorough education for the HS student.  Everything is watered down and easy for young kids.  Yes, you can use Laying the Rails for older students, but the thought is that character training should be accomplished earlier in life, so there isn't such a need for it when curriculum programs, philosophy, and religion all ramp up.  

 

Yes, it is, but as the mom of a 17 and 14 year old, I can tell you that challenging your child with hard questions and comparing world views is what you do as they get older. I don't want to hold back on that. And that is exactly what Tapestry does. When they suggest in this week plan the older students should have a small debate on two fairly controversial statements that compare Christianity and Hinduism, the first thing they do is have the students turn to dictionaries and define terms. Exactly, in my view, what you want to do with students at that age. BUT not what you would do with a young child like yours. So I understand why you think this would be terrible later on, but it's not in my opinon. This is exactly the kind of discussion anyone who wants to be part of the great conversation must do. And as I said right off the bat to your first post, is it a surprise that Tapestry doesn't agree with HInduism?

 

I think what Beth points out about the difference between a middle school and high school level curriculum is dead on. You can't compare such programs to programs for young children. What seems difficult to secularize now maybe exactly what is needed for older students. 

 

As a matter of fact, why I left Sonlight after the Eastern Hemisphere program was because their questions lacked depth. I'll never forget reading the first reader of the year which had lots of interesting material: the boy feels caught between two gods, he has three life and death struggles with animals, and is chased by cannibals, but when I turned to Sonlight's questions they were asking questions like how did he make clothing? Argh! Sure it was easy to secularize, but it was just rote recall. No beginning logic stage requirement at all. 

 

 

I don't think I'm making a big deal, but I am not willing to let misinformation stand. What I am doing is providing facts about the actual percentage of Christian content in a highly religious week in the plan. That's why I did the chart, because I wanted to make sure I wasn't doing what you claim Christians are doing, overlooking things casually. The chart was a device to show me and others the amount of Christian content. You said half the pages have it. I verified that was not so. If you disagree, I would be happy to compare a chart of yours to mine, apples to apples. 

 

You are certainly allowed to have an opinion, but I see a difference between that statement and opinion. It was a factual statement that could be verified. I verified. 

 

As someone who is exceptionally pleased with the Rhetoric stage of TOG's years 2-4, I will agree that they provide excellent discussion material that I can't wait to use with my children who are *not quite* there yet.  HOWEVER, you are ignoring the fact that this is a difficult program to secularize for many units (which I own and have used) because the discussion is less philosophical and more from ONE worldview which it pushes.  Asking "What central errors do Buddhism and Hinduism share?" is not the same as sharing a discussion on comparative religions.  For many religions, and respectful people, this question is troublesome.  It's not an academic undertaking of an issue, but a personal, and religious one. One that is frankly not acceptable for secular folk. Or using Creation as the starting point of the timeline with an exact date-troubling not just for secular people, but everyone outside of the YEC worldview. Personally, I'm iffy about the quality of a program that goes against science to establish an exact date for creation, and it worries me about other parts of the program (do NOT start the YE/OE debate-I am mentioning it because it is a common reason outside of YEC for not using a program).  That is what Mergath is referring to.  It's rather obnoxious to have good advice given for the religious material in a program and have someone try to shoot it down because their religious beliefs coincide.  That's great for you, but you are not the target audience for her thoughts, and your advice is misleading to a secular audience.  Any search on TOG on this forum (as just one example) will come up with many discussions on how difficult some units are to secularize because of an Evangelical Worldview. 

 

She did verify her statement with facts and direct quotes.  There is really no direct facts or evidence you have given in your posts besides attempting to tear apart other programs Mergath has used and make this a personal attack.  I also own Sonlight, many SCM materials, Rod & Staff, etc. and there is some comparatively troubling material in Sonlight for worldview type questions about other religions (or worse, the slavery issues-search on here for info about core 100-something I have NOT seen in TOG, thankfully), just like in TOG.  TOG's, IMHO was more pronounced, though.  I used it through Dialectic, and read through the Rhetoric for myself to decide whether to use it again.  I have advanced Middle Schoolers. 

 

I can not understand why some people are taking this personal enough to argue over whether it can be secularized.  It can, but the consensus seems to agree that it is difficult to do. The fact that she has a 5 year old is no more relevant than the fact that Beth's daughter is also 5 and uses TOG now (so her opinion would matter more?). The worldview push is not as prevalent in the lower grades, but it is still there, whether or not Mergath's daughter is ready for the material.  We can all agree on that, yes? 

 

More advice from users on secularizing TOG: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/466223-if-youre-using-tog-secularly-any-advice-for-me-redesign-vs-classic/?hl=%2Btog+%2Bsecular&do=findComment&comment=4877909

 

Here, Candid, you even agree that it can be troublesome for non-Christians (and may I add, non Evangelicals, as I've met Orthodox and Catholics and UUs who agree). http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/446137-tapestry-of-grace-questions/?hl=tog+secular&do=findComment&comment=4564206

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/389348-is-there-a-hostorylit-program-similar-to-sonlight-that-is-more-secular/?hl=tog+secular&do=findComment&comment=4082800

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/346963-10-reasons-not-to-buy-tog/?hl=tog+secular&do=findComment&comment=3761951

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/389385-how-easy-to-use-tapestry-of-grace-as-secular-curriculum/?hl=tog+secular&do=findComment&comment=3952100

 

There is more if you use the search box, if you would like to know more on secularizing it.  I will probably take the time to do so, but I would not recommend it for everyone-just like any program.  It will take a lot of work. I would LOVE to look at the new updated TOG, but since I bought it ages ago, I can't get the free unit, so please enlighten me if this has changed (though I doubt it with Mergath's quotes), as I do plan on using it again. 

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She did verify her statement with facts and direct quotes.  There is really no direct facts or evidence you have given in your posts besides attempting to tear apart other programs Mergath has used and make this a personal attack.  I also own Sonlight, many SCM materials, Rod & Staff, etc. and there is some comparatively troubling material in Sonlight for worldview type questions about other religions (or worse, the slavery issues-search on here for info about core 100-something I have NOT seen in TOG, thankfully), just like in TOG.  TOG's, IMHO was more pronounced, though.  I used it through Dialectic, and read through the Rhetoric for myself to decide whether to use it again.  I have advanced Middle Schoolers. 

 

Actually if you read my posts above, you'll see I agreed with everything she pulled out and said I included that in my chart. I am disputing her contention that the materials that contain 1/2 or more secular content. Is she wishes to pull out enough to find substantially more than what I found then I'll be happy to agree with her. Thus far she has about 3/4 of a page in quotes, I found 5 pages or so. She claims around 30 pages exist. It would be pretty easy to prove I am dead wrong by finding around 15 pages. 

 

 

As someone who is exceptionally pleased with the Rhetoric stage of TOG's years 2-4, I will agree that they provide excellent discussion material that I can't wait to use with my children who are *not quite* there yet.  HOWEVER, you are ignoring the fact that this is a difficult program to secularize for many units (which I own and have used) because the discussion is less philosophical and more from ONE worldview which it pushes.  Asking "What central errors do Buddhism and Hinduism share?" is not the same as sharing a discussion on comparative religions.  For many religions, and respectful people, this question is troublesome.  It's not an academic undertaking of an issue, but a personal, and religious one. One that is frankly not acceptable for secular folk. Or using Creation as the starting point of the timeline with an exact date-troubling not just for secular people, but everyone outside of the YEC worldview. Personally, I'm iffy about the quality of a program that goes against science to establish an exact date for creation, and it worries me about other parts of the program (do NOT start the YE/OE debate-I am mentioning it because it is a common reason outside of YEC for not using a program).  That is what Mergath is referring to.  It's rather obnoxious to have good advice given for the religious material in a program and have someone try to shoot it down because their religious beliefs coincide.  That's great for you, but you are not the target audience for her thoughts, and your advice is misleading to a secular audience.  Any search on TOG on this forum (as just one example) will come up with many discussions on how difficult some units are to secularize because of an Evangelical Worldview. 

 

 

Yup, I agree you'd want to secularize TOG, but I'm not sure it is nearly as hard as has been made out. Let's take the question on central errors. Why not transform that to "Why central tenets to Buddhism and Hinduism share that are different from Christianity?" Or you could plug in other religions for Christianity. 

 

As I've pointed out up thread this one question is one of a set actually asked of the students. The other question I put down (one of the four lines I note for a total of eight lines to students) would also be have to be changed. The rest of materials are directed at parents not students and honestly I'm not sure why they would need to be changed at all. 

 

So what that means is two questions to students would need to changed. Wow! That doesn't strike me as a lot of work at all. 

 

 

I can not understand why some people are taking this personal enough to argue over whether it can be secularized.  It can, but the consensus seems to agree that it is difficult to do. The fact that she has a 5 year old is no more relevant than the fact that Beth's daughter is also 5 and uses TOG now (so her opinion would matter more?). The worldview push is not as prevalent in the lower grades, but it is still there, whether or not Mergath's daughter is ready for the material.  We can all agree on that, yes? 

 

More advice from users on secularizing TOG: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/466223-if-youre-using-tog-secularly-any-advice-for-me-redesign-vs-classic/?hl=%2Btog+%2Bsecular&do=findComment&comment=4877909

 

Here, Candid, you even agree that it can be troublesome for non-Christians (and may I add, non Evangelicals, as I've met Orthodox and Catholics and UUs who agree). http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/446137-tapestry-of-grace-questions/?hl=tog+secular&do=findComment&comment=4564206

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/389348-is-there-a-hostorylit-program-similar-to-sonlight-that-is-more-secular/?hl=tog+secular&do=findComment&comment=4082800

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/346963-10-reasons-not-to-buy-tog/?hl=tog+secular&do=findComment&comment=3761951

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/389385-how-easy-to-use-tapestry-of-grace-as-secular-curriculum/?hl=tog+secular&do=findComment&comment=3952100

 

There is more if you use the search box, if you would like to know more on secularizing it.  I will probably take the time to do so, but I would not recommend it for everyone-just like any program.  It will take a lot of work. I would LOVE to look at the new updated TOG, but since I bought it ages ago, I can't get the free unit, so please enlighten me if this has changed (though I doubt it with Mergath's quotes), as I do plan on using it again. 

 

Let me clarify that in my post, I am referring to the church history books used. I would never consider that a secular user would even want to study church history in the detail of those books and would probably cut them. But you are quite correct, church history books should be chosen by the user based on their taste. 

 

However, those books are a tiny minority of all Tapestry books, if you include bios probably less 10% of all the books used in the program. I'd count them up and let you know, but the last time I tried to do a factual tally someone in this thread claimed I was a shill. So I'll leave you to do that. 

 

In at least one of the threads above the posters indicate that Tapestry would be easy to use with younger children in a secular household so I'm not really seeing this difficulty level you claim exists. 

 

Now as to difficulty, as I have illustrated in this post in this difficult week, there are only two questions directed at students that need to be changed. I don't think this is difficult at all. 

 

But I HAVE NOT been arguing about how hard or easy Tapestry is to secularize but about Mergath's first post:

 

 

 

Every other page of the unit we got talks about how students should learn something about Buddhism and Hinduism so they can understand why they're wrong.  Or about how these religions oppose Christianity.  Or about how they're fighting Christianity for followers.  And so on. 

 

In my view this is factually incorrect. I have suggested in this post an easy way to prove I am wrong or at least that the new DE has more of this content than my older print addition has. 

 

 

 

I can not understand why some people are taking this personal enough to argue over whether it can be secularized. 

 

I'm not sure I am taking this personally. I'm just a person who doesn't like to characterize others and their work incorrectly. As I've noted I've got a fairly strict code on this one. 

 

But I understand that some folks feel argument means someone is taking something personal. We do debate in my household and folks need to be able to make both sides of an argument well and with evidence to earn their debate chops. 

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Quick peak through my week 10:

 

Pages 1, 2, 5, 6, 10, 11, 15, 17, 18, 21, 22, 25, 26 would need tweaking for a secular user. I'm not taking the time to read the whole week or pull quotes (it is all the same stuff that Mergath posted anyway), but it seems that "every other page" would be a fair statement. Year 1 is the hardest year to secularize. Some weeks within year one are harder to secularize than others.

 

I am a Christian who has used TOG for several years. I have absolutely zero problem saying that TOG has a whole boatload of Christian content and it is hard to secularize. Doable? Yes, I absolutely think so. Am I surprised that many others would think it is just not worth their time? Not at all.

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Honestly, I think you are missing the point about why a secular family wouldn't want to use it. Yes, you can probably change the questions easily enough to secularise it without much trouble but for me, well I can't support or buy from a company that teaches that their worldview is the only right one and all other religions are false.

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Honestly, I think you are missing the point about why a secular family wouldn't want to use it. Yes, you can probably change the questions easily enough to secularise it without much trouble but for me, well I can't support or buy from a company that teaches that their worldview is the only right one and all other religions are false.

 

Are you talking to me? I'm going to assume you are since your post is directly under mine, but it doesn't make sense to me. Maybe you don't understand what I am saying? I can actually think of many reasons (the one you listed included) why a secular family wouldn't want to use TOG. Heck, I can think of many reasons why a Christian family wouldn't want to use TOG. ;) That is beside the point.

 

Mergath is being accused of misrepresenting TOG by saying that "every other page" has material that would be unusable for her. I am saying that at least when it comes to Week 10, she is absolutely right.

 

I think you are missing *my* point. Or you are not addressing me, in which case, never mind. :tongue_smilie:

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I'm not sure I am taking this personally. I'm just a person who doesn't like to characterize other's and their work incorrectly. As I've noted I've got a fairly strict code on this one. 

 

But I understand that some folks feel argument means someone is taking something personal. We do debate in my household and folks need to be able to make both sides of an argument well and with evidence to earn their debate chops. 

 

And I'm done.  You're not listening to what anyone is saying, so there's just no point.

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Quick peak through my week 10:

 

Pages 1, 2, 5, 6, 10, 11, 15, 17, 18, 21, 22, 25, 26 would need tweaking for a secular user. I'm not taking the time to read the whole week or pull quotes (it is all the same stuff that Mergath posted anyway), but it seems that "every other page" would be a fair statement. Year 1 is the hardest year to secularize. Some weeks within year one are harder to secularize than others.

 

I am a Christian who has used TOG for several years. I have absolutely zero problem saying that TOG has a whole boatload of Christian content and it is hard to secularize. Doable? Yes, I absolutely think so. Am I surprised that many others would think it is just not worth their time? Not at all.

 

Okay I set the bar of 15 pages. So I guess "every other page" is correct. Although I am surprised by some of those pages numbers since I think they must occur in the threads and assignment pages which aren't really teaching just organizing. 

 

Further, I guess also the new weeks must be a lot shorter than mine which is 60 pages long that would be 30 pages not 13 to be every other.

 

Sorry that I can't be more gracious in accepting defeat, but that's the best i have in me at the moment. 

 

I still think the first statement I objected to was hyperbole. That's what I objected to. I also let my self get distracted by later posts that were not on topic. That was my mistake, I should have stayed on topic. 

 

And I completely agree with your last paragraph. I've said similar things and as I point out in my last post, I felt the one big thing that was posted and reposted is super simple to rework. I know sometimes your brain is tired and you can't do a simple rework like I did, that's why I use the always helpful, "Tell me about blank."

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Okay I set the bar of 15 pages. So I guess "every other page" is correct. Although I am surprised by some of those pages numbers since I think they must occur in the threads and assignment pages which aren't really teaching just organizing. 

 

Further, I guess also the new weeks must be a lot shorter than mine which is 60 pages long that would be 30 pages not 13 to be every other.

 

Sorry that I can't be more gracious in accepting defeat, but that's the best i have in me at the moment. 

 

I still think the first statement I objected to was hyperbole. That's what I objected to. I also let my self get distracted by later posts that were not on topic. That was my mistake, I should have stayed on topic. 

 

And I completely agree with your last paragraph. I've said similar things and as I point out in my last post, I felt the one big thing that was posted and reposted is super simple to rework. I know sometimes your brain is tired and you can't do a simple rework like I did, that's why I use the always helpful, "Tell me about blank."

You hyperfocused on hyperbole without proving it false and instead attacked the speaker.  That's a clear fallacy.  I think if you have a hard line against works being represented inaccurately, you should at least hold yourself to that standard, as Mergath was not the one misrepresenting.  Not to mention, there is a certain amount of phrasing common in everyday speech that carries over to discussions on the internet.  So when people say "every day", they don't always mean every single day without fail.  Or if someone says "all the time", it's not likely they mean 100%. This is not a scientific discussion or a review for profit.  This is a discussion.  So I'm not really sure how this thread got so OT. 

 

For future reference, can you retain the usernames on the quotes?  It makes it really difficult to reply and see what to respond to when you don't. 

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I thought that in the beginning Mergath said that TOG looks far more difficult to secularize than a program such as Sonlight.

 

I was just trying to point out, with her daughter being 5, maybe she has only looked at Sonlight's early levels. You can't compare the Christian teaching in Sonlight Core A to what you receive with TOG. A more accurate way to compare the ease of secularization of different programs would be to compare TOG with Sonlight's high school programs.

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I thought that in the beginning Mergath said that TOG looks far more difficult to secularize than a program such as Sonlight.

 

I was just trying to point out, with her daughter being 5, maybe she has only looked at Sonlight's early levels. You can't compare the Christian teaching in Sonlight Core A to what you receive with TOG. A more accurate way to compare the ease of secularization of different programs would be to compare TOG with Sonlight's high school programs.

 

Yes, you are correct that she did say that. She later said she had never seen Sonlight except in catalogs. 

 

I think you are correct in your assessment.

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You hyperfocused on hyperbole without proving it false and instead attacked the speaker.  That's a clear fallacy.  I think if you have a hard line against works being represented inaccurately, you should at least hold yourself to that standard, as Mergath was not the one misrepresenting.  Not to mention, there is a certain amount of phrasing common in everyday speech that carries over to discussions on the internet.  So when people say "every day", they don't always mean every single day without fail.  Or if someone says "all the time", it's not likely they mean 100%. This is not a scientific discussion or a review for profit.  This is a discussion.  So I'm not really sure how this thread got so OT. 

 

For future reference, can you retain the usernames on the quotes?  It makes it really difficult to reply and see what to respond to when you don't. 

 

I'm afraid I don't quite follow your reasoning. It appears you agree with my assessment that the first post I responded to had hyperbole. 

 

I was not the one who in the first response to my argument that this post had hyperbole led with this sentence:

 

 

Defensive, much?  

 

And then in my second argument chose to lead with

 

:001_rolleyes:  I take it you're involved with sales for ToG? 

 

 

Unlike you, mommymilkies,  I am quite aware of how this thread got so OT. I'm afraid it was quite a kerfuffle. 

 

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Back to the topic. I requested a free unit the beginning of last week. Should I keep waiting ir request it again?

 

 

You could email them to ask if it went through. It doesn't hurt to submit it again though.

 

I agree, based on other responses on this thread, they are a bit overwhelmed by responses. 

 

 

I will say for anyone who has not heard from them and it has been over a week, I'd definitely contact them before the end of October. 

 

While usually Tapestry is pretty good about quick customer service, I've seen them and other companies get totally over whelmed by response to some offering. 

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Thanks, I heard back from them really quickly. They did say they got an overwhelming response to their offer and are working as fast as possible to respond to every request. 

 

I'm looking forward to this as we are really considering them for our next history cycle starting next year.

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It's not misinformation. We simply disagree on what constitutes content a secular hser would likely want to omit. I could just as easily say it's you spreading misinformation, but I'm just not that rude, I suppose. But kudos for demonstrating what a secular hser will have to deal with if they come here to talk about ToG. You've probably warned them off much more effectively than the free unit.

 

I guess what I don't understand, is why, if you want a secular program, would you even bother to look at a Christian program in the first place, just to secularize it? Then complain about the contents of the program for being what it stated it was, Christian. Why not just pursue a secular program?

 

What bothers me is that too many secular people do this.  You don't see Christians complaining about secular homeschool programs because there's no Christian content in them. In fact, many Christians use secular materials so they can inject their own religious views into the content, but they don't complain about the content. 

 

There are several secular curricula out there.  This website has a directory of secular homeschool curriculum and reviews for them.  This would be a great resource for you:  http://www.secularhomeschool.com/content/675-secular-homeschool-curriculum-reviews/

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I guess what I don't understand, is why, if you want a secular program, would you even bother to look at a Christian program in the first place, just to secularize it? Then complain about the contents of the program for being what it stated it was, Christian. Why not just pursue a secular program?

 

What bothers me is that too many secular people do this. You don't see Christians complaining about secular homeschool programs because there's no Christian content in them. In fact, many Christians use secular materials so they can inject their own religious views into the content, but they don't complain about the content.

 

There are several secular curricula out there. This website has a directory of secular homeschool curriculum and reviews for them. This would be a great resource for you: http://www.secularhomeschool.com/content/675-secular-homeschool-curriculum-reviews/

Well, I am not complaining about either the quantity or nature of the Christian content in TOG (because it was 100% expected), but I can tell you why I am bothering to look at it. I have looked at and drooled over TOG many times because there is nothing secular out there like it. Nothing. I have heard of every program on the list you linked, but there is just flat out nothing as thorough and well done as TOG (or even Sonlight for that matter). I would pay a ridiculous amount of money for a secular version of something formatted like TOG. As it is, I have to decide what is easier, secularizing a Christian curriculum or (year after year after year) starting from scratch to make my own.

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Someone help me out, please. Where do I start reading? I keep opening it up and just staring at the main page, overwhelmed by all the links I *could* click.

 

I assume this means you've received your unit?

 

For me the books are really important, so begin by looking at what books will be used for one of your levels only. Just get them in your head so to speak, don't spend more than 10 minutes doing that.

 

Then pick one week, I'd do the first week and read it pretty much straight through. Get a feel for what all the different sections are. Then to begin to make it yours, read another week, but this time only read what you would normally read. So you won't look at the R level materials if you don't have R level children, but you will read the yellow World Book pages made to introduce the teacher to the topic for the week. 

 

Then begin to think about how you would use this with your children. 

 

This will vary depending on you and yours. With younger children you may give them daily assignments, with older children you may let them look up their own weekly assignments and only intersect on the discussions at the end of the week. 

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Well, I am not complaining about either the quantity or nature of the Christian content in TOG (because it was 100% expected), but I can tell you why I am bothering to look at it. I have looked at and drooled over TOG many times because there is nothing secular out there like it. Nothing. I have heard of every program on the list you linked, but there is just flat out nothing as thorough and well done as TOG (or even Sonlight for that matter). I would pay a ridiculous amount of money for a secular version of something formatted like TOG. As it is, I have to decide what is easier, secularizing a Christian curriculum or (year after year after year) starting from scratch to make my own.

 

I think the free unit offer is a good way for you to do that. I suspect that usability will vary from person to person and maybe from year plan to year plan.

 

And personally, while I'd be surprised to hear a secular person wanted to study church history I find both the books used in the 3rd year to be amazing books that add a ton of insight not just to church history but the time about which they are written.

 

Check them out to see what i mean:

http://www.amazon.com/Civil-War-Theological-Crisis-ebook/dp/B001L1RVWM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1382369908&sr=8-1&keywords=civil+war+as+theological+crisis

 

http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Revivalism-Charles-Grandison-Finney/dp/159244976X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1382369967&sr=8-1&keywords=modern+revivalism

 

It's what I like about Tapestry, they don't pick easy books but they do pick books that are rich in detail and interest. 

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Well, I am not complaining about either the quantity or nature of the Christian content in TOG (because it was 100% expected), but I can tell you why I am bothering to look at it. I have looked at and drooled over TOG many times because there is nothing secular out there like it. Nothing. I have heard of every program on the list you linked, but there is just flat out nothing as thorough and well done as TOG (or even Sonlight for that matter). I would pay a ridiculous amount of money for a secular version of something formatted like TOG. As it is, I have to decide what is easier, secularizing a Christian curriculum or (year after year after year) starting from scratch to make my own.

 

Have you tried History Odyssey from Pandia Press? I haven't used it yet, but it looks pretty good and is secular!

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:001_rolleyes:  I take it you're involved with sales for ToG? 

 

The difference here is that your idea of what constitutes "Christian content" and a non-Christian, secular homeschooler's are likely very different.  Stuff like this:

 

 

 

"We hope to learn about these belief systems so that we can both understand their errors and and learn to effectively reach these people with the good news of Jesus Christ!"

 

"When we learn how our HIndu or Buddhist neighbor understands the world and where his beliefs differ from Biblical teaching, we can begin to show him in words that he can understand the way that he can come into a right relationship with God through accepting the death of Jesus Christ on the cross for his sins and be saved."

 

"What central errors do Buddhism and Hinduism share?"

 

"As you have learned in worldview studies this week, Hinduism and Buddhism share a common central fault..."

 

"Would you expect that human life more precious [sic] or less so in Indian society than in Western culture because of this widespread religious belief?" (referring to reincarnation)

 

"How do you think Hinduism, as a worldview, compares to the biblical worldview?  Which one do you value more, and why? Try to be specific!"  (So basically telling kids, "Pick which religion is better," which isn't generally something a secular homeschooler would consider doing.)

 

There's some kind of philosophy play that has some guy arguing with a Buddha caricature and has sources from buddhanet.net.  I'm not sure what that's supposed to be about, though it seems the other character is trying to show that Buddhism doesn't make sense.  Or something.  I'm not really getting it.

 

The timeline for this section starts with "Creation: 4006 BC."

 

"In the end, though, the religion, laws, and customs of the Egyptians have not profoundly impacted Western culture except through biblical stories."

 

"To an unusual degree even by the standards of the ancient world, Hinduism is a worldview made up of loosely-connected beliefs, with many internal contradictions and inconsistencies between its different branches."

 

(ETA: And almost every sentence came from a different page.  I didn't take them all from one paragraph or anything like that.  This was scattered over the Indus Valley stuff.)

 

 

 

I could go on, but honestly, I'm sick of reading through this stuff.

 

And it's more subtle than that, too.  Even the questions and information that don't seem to be about religion at first glance often seem to encourage kids to think about the negative aspects of other worldviews, and compare those to the positive aspects of Christianity.  As I said before, that's not something Christians might notice, but secular homeschoolers do.  The antagonistic view of all non-Christians cultures saturates much of the curriculum.  Could it be secularized?  Like I said before, I'm sure it could, but it would drive me nuts trying to do so.

 

And no, I don't have other posts endorsing other Christian curriculum.  My daughter is five, and I'm not sure why that would matter.  From what I've seen of Sonlight, I think that could be adaptable, but I'm only going by the catalog on that one.  

It's a Reformed Dominionist curricula. I really wouldn't expect anything less. In fact, when I was Reformed, it was what we demanded and it was why so many of us got excited over TOG. I still have the year I had bought (back then it was ONLY hardcopy). I can't really use it. There might be some good bits there, but weeding it all out and then having to double check their facts to make sure they didn't just pull a white washed version or twist something around and leave out the variables of the equations....yeah, too much work. As an Orthodox person that is also sympathetic towards Catholicism, I DEFINITELY would not be able to use TOG.

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Yup, I counted all of that in my PDF that I posted. Still only came to five pages and 8 lines out of 59 pages. 

 

She didn't say that they added up to every other page being FILLED with it. She stated that just about every other page had something on it. Whether it was one line or half a page...it was on that page. It doesn't matter how much it equals up to when it's separated and combined onto blank pages; it's about how it's scattered throughout the material and not just occasionally.

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Wow, there is a lot of good information in this thread. I appreciate being able to read different views of curriculum. The only reason I am on these forums is to glean info from others who have tried things and read their opinions so even if yours and mine do not match, arent they still valuable?

 

That being said, I prefer a secular curriculum. We are Christian, but as Jehovah's Witnesses many of our bible beliefs do not match that of many other christian doctrines. I'm anxious to see if this could be used by us easily. This is our first year as homeschoolers. I am teaching a fifth grader and 2nd grader and we just started SOTW volume 1.  Im not sure if I should get YR1 Unit 2 so I can compare it to what we are doing coming up, or if I should go ahead and try Yr2 Unit 1?

 

I hadn't even heard of TOG before since we are so new to this whole thing but it seems to be very well received so I want to look into it. Thank you for the all the info from both sides.

 

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It's a Reformed Dominionist curricula. I really wouldn't expect anything less. In fact, when I was Reformed, it was what we demanded and it was why so many of us got excited over TOG. I still have the year I had bought (back then it was ONLY hardcopy). I can't really use it. There might be some good bits there, but weeding it all out and then having to double check their facts to make sure they didn't just pull a white washed version or twist something around and leave out the variables of the equations....yeah, too much work. As an Orthodox person that is also sympathetic towards Catholicism, I DEFINITELY would not be able to use TOG.

 

I strongly disagree with this. TOG Redesigned, what is being marketed and sold now, is not at all the same animal as was TOG Classic. Yes, the founders are Reformed, and that does come through occasionally, especially in the Worldview section. But, I've not had any trouble at all skipping their Worldview for our own and when some point of difference does come up, explaining to DS that other Christians believe differently than we do. This is something that I was very worried about when I was deciding whether or not to invest in TOG. From all the reading I did, I would say this was a fair statement for the old TOG, but is not at all accurate for the current product. I've found it much easier to tailor to our needs than I did Sonlight.

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I received my free unit and to be honest, I'm having trouble (I got through it, it's just tedious) with all the steps in the DE just to simply get to the information. It is overwhelming, and I've read enough about TOG fog to know it was coming. 

 

I guess I'm just more of a print person. I'll have to dig into my unit to see what might be usable for us. 

 

 

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I guess what I don't understand, is why, if you want a secular program, would you even bother to look at a Christian program in the first place, just to secularize it? Then complain about the contents of the program for being what it stated it was, Christian. Why not just pursue a secular program?

 

What bothers me is that too many secular people do this.  You don't see Christians complaining about secular homeschool programs because there's no Christian content in them. In fact, many Christians use secular materials so they can inject their own religious views into the content, but they don't complain about the content. 

 

There are several secular curricula out there.  This website has a directory of secular homeschool curriculum and reviews for them.  This would be a great resource for you:  http://www.secularhomeschool.com/content/675-secular-homeschool-curriculum-reviews/

There have been about a hundred threads on this topic (yes, conversational hyperbole-count the threads and get back to me!). Secular materials are not very prevalent in the homeschooling community.  The ones that are there do not always work for our families/children or are ones we find inadequate for a number of reasons.  Secular encompasses a wide range of beliefs-Jewish, Buddhist, Atheist, Pagan, Hindu, Catholic, JW, LDS, and on and on...are all different beliefs I have seen express a desire for a secular curriculum so they can tailor it to their beliefs.  Really, it's like asking a Christian homeschooler why they would use secular material since they have to add religion and worldview in.  I have no problem with some religion in my materials.  I am not anti-religion or anti-Christian.  I prefer not having proselytizing and facts I consider debatable or wrong provided as truths.  For example, the Rod & Staff English religious themed passages my kids find funny sometimes, but not offensive. Sonlight is much the same, minus a few rather Evangelical bits we skip over.  TOG, when I used Year 1, had far more than I've had to edit for other programs because of the worldview, but overall, I find it an excellent program for older kids.

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I think the free unit offer is a good way for you to do that. I suspect that usability will vary from person to person and maybe from year plan to year plan.

 

And personally, while I'd be surprised to hear a secular person wanted to study church history I find both the books used in the 3rd year to be amazing books that add a ton of insight not just to church history but the time about which they are written.

 

Check them out to see what i mean:

http://www.amazon.com/Civil-War-Theological-Crisis-ebook/dp/B001L1RVWM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1382369908&sr=8-1&keywords=civil+war+as+theological+crisis

 

http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Revivalism-Charles-Grandison-Finney/dp/159244976X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1382369967&sr=8-1&keywords=modern+revivalism

 

It's what I like about Tapestry, they don't pick easy books but they do pick books that are rich in detail and interest. 

 

We wouldn't necessarily do church history, but we would do religious history (to encompass all world religions and their effect on history). I agree that TOG's book selections are generally good. I like that they use more non-fiction than Sonlight.

 

Have you tried History Odyssey from Pandia Press? I haven't used it yet, but it looks pretty good and is secular!

 

I looked at the first level before DS10's first grade year and had mixed feelings. (Then I chose to do a two year American history with him so I could start all three on a world history rotation together when DS7 started K.) The general consensus on the boards seems to be that the second level sucks the joy out of history. :tongue_smilie: We love the subject here and want to keep it as engaging as possible. However, the real problem is that I have three kids who are at different levels, and no one seems to handle that better than TOG. So far I have done a good job of covering the same topics at a range of levels (if I do say so myself, LOL), but it does get tiring sometimes, which is why I daydream about a good-enough starting point for combining kids.

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I strongly disagree with this. TOG Redesigned, what is being marketed and sold now, is not at all the same animal as was TOG Classic. Yes, the founders are Reformed, and that does come through occasionally, especially in the Worldview section. But, I've not had any trouble at all skipping their Worldview for our own and when some point of difference does come up, explaining to DS that other Christians believe differently than we do. This is something that I was very worried about when I was deciding whether or not to invest in TOG. From all the reading I did, I would say this was a fair statement for the old TOG, but is not at all accurate for the current product. I've found it much easier to tailor to our needs than I did Sonlight.

 

Which means nothing for the fact that what is on my shelf is not very usable to me. From what Mergath wrote (who was quoting from the redesign and confirmed by others), the questions are extremely leading rather than a way of learning and discussing other faiths. Since you are very familiar with the redesign, perhaps you could tell me how they handle Orthodoxy and Catholicism...Charlemagne, Constantine, etc... Does TOG still have a Catholic section to their forums?

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I think the free unit offer is a good way for you to do that. I suspect that usability will vary from person to person and maybe from year plan to year plan.

 

And personally, while I'd be surprised to hear a secular person wanted to study church history I find both the books used in the 3rd year to be amazing books that add a ton of insight not just to church history but the time about which they are written.

 

Check them out to see what i mean:

http://www.amazon.com/Civil-War-Theological-Crisis-ebook/dp/B001L1RVWM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1382369908&sr=8-1&keywords=civil+war+as+theological+crisis

 

http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Revivalism-Charles-Grandison-Finney/dp/159244976X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1382369967&sr=8-1&keywords=modern+revivalism

 

It's what I like about Tapestry, they don't pick easy books but they do pick books that are rich in detail and interest. 

 

We wouldn't necessarily do church history, but we would do religious history (to encompass all world religions and their effect on history). I agree that TOG's book selections are generally good. I like that they use more non-fiction than Sonlight.

 

Have you tried History Odyssey from Pandia Press? I haven't used it yet, but it looks pretty good and is secular!

 

I looked at the first level before DS10's first grade year and had mixed feelings. (Then I chose to do a two year American history with him so I could start all three on a world history rotation together when DS7 started K.) The general consensus on the boards seems to be that the second level sucks the joy out of history. :tongue_smilie: We love the subject here and want to keep it as engaging as possible. However, the real problem is that I have three kids who are at different levels, and no one seems to handle that better than TOG. So far I have done a good job of covering the same topics at a range of levels (if I do say so myself, LOL), but it does get tiring sometimes, which is why I daydream about a good-enough starting point for combining kids.

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Okay, checked the TOG site...they still have the Catholic/Orthodox section (used to be just Catholic). There's a whopping eleven (unhelpful) posts from 2011.

 

Their forum is basically dead all over. I think most people post elsewhere (maybe on the yahoogroups?). There may be Yahoogroups for Catholic/Orthodox/LDS/etc. TOG users. Since I'm not in those camps, I haven't looked. I seem to recall there possibly being one, but that might have been another curriculum. It's hard to keep up. :tongue_smilie:

 

The nice thing about DE is that you can edit the questions on the student pages. ;) There are probably going to be some questions that don't fit my beliefs (I'm a conservative Christian and young earth, but I'm not providential in the way that they are). In those cases, we'll use those questions as jumping off points for good conversations if I think it would be useful. If I don't think they're useful, I'll nix the questions. Not a big deal. Those questions are for students 6th grade and up, so my children should be able to argue their point pretty well and back up their reasoning with Bible verses, and in doing so, they very well may answer completely differently from TOG's teacher's notes, and I'm absolutely good with that. :D

 

I'm using Year 4 right now, and the unit I have seems to be very easy to use secularly. I just looked at week 2's (since I have that week open) D and R accountability and thinking questions, and there is absolutely nothing in there religious, period. There is probably some religious stuff in some weeks, but it would likely be easy to pick out. I'm not using the Church History stuff - that would obviously be religious and might not be suitable to some Christians (possibly myself included - I haven't looked at the resources or discussions for that subject). But the core history discussion appears to be easy to use by anyone. I'm not sure if liberal vs. conservative political issues might crop up at some point in this year plan for some people. Maybe someone who has used year 4 all the way through could comment on that.

 

I can see that Year 1 would be very difficult to use secularly (and I haven't even purchased it yet - it's just obvious to me from the samples). I know there are threads around here on people talking about how it could possibly be done, taking out some weeks and spending more time on other weeks. So I'm sure it's doable, but you're spending a lot of money at that point to not really use the curriculum as much.

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Okay, checked the TOG site...they still have the Catholic/Orthodox section (used to be just Catholic). There's a whopping eleven (unhelpful) posts from 2011.

 

I don't know if you are Catholic, Orthodox, or just looking for available information, but there is an active TOG Catholic yahoo group made up of families who use the material.  I think that is maybe why the boards aren't that active on the TOG website, since the yahoo group is?  

 

Its full of information for book substitutions, etc.

 

http://www.tapestryofgrace.com/community/mailgroups.php

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It's a Reformed Dominionist curricula. I really wouldn't expect anything less. In fact, when I was Reformed, it was what we demanded and it was why so many of us got excited over TOG. I still have the year I had bought (back then it was ONLY hardcopy). I can't really use it. There might be some good bits there, but weeding it all out and then having to double check their facts to make sure they didn't just pull a white washed version or twist something around and leave out the variables of the equations....yeah, too much work. As an Orthodox person that is also sympathetic towards Catholicism, I DEFINITELY would not be able to use TOG

 

Dominionist?  Really?

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Is anyone else still waiting for their unit?  I sent my first request in on the 13th and never heard anything, so I sent another request 2 days ago and still nothing.  I actually want to buy a unit and get started, but don't want to miss out on a free unit by buying something.

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Is anyone else still waiting for their unit?  I sent my first request in on the 13th and never heard anything, so I sent another request 2 days ago and still nothing.  I actually want to buy a unit and get started, but don't want to miss out on a free unit by buying something.

 

Email them or call them. They'll likely get going faster on your unit. :)

 

I think they're having to do something by hand, and the amount of people probably exploded when it was posted here. :lol:

 

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Okay, checked the TOG site...they still have the Catholic/Orthodox section (used to be just Catholic). There's a whopping eleven (unhelpful) posts from 2011.

 

This doesn't mean much, for whatever reason TOG has the slowest forums on earth. 

 

There might be a RC/Orthodox Yahoo! group.

 

However, I've said on many threads in the past that I don't think TOG is particularly reformed, mostly just generic Protestant even their church history choices are not reformed. I've asked on threads when people claim it is reformed to provide me with proof, but thus far no one has provided that. 

 

Despite what you read above, the stuff on Hinduism is generic Protestant. Sonlight has similar stuff as do other Protestant curriculum. 

 

If you are Catholic or RC, you'll want to switch out bios and church histories. However, the two books I linked above, I'd leave in. The Civil War book's only "hero" is the RC European theology on slavery (Southern RC wrote the same stuff about slavery that other Southern denominations did). So that would definitely be a keeper for a RC/Orthodox minded family. BUT don't expect anyone but your oldest children to be reading that. 

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She didn't say that they added up to every other page being FILLED with it. She stated that just about every other page had something on it. Whether it was one line or half a page...it was on that page. It doesn't matter how much it equals up to when it's separated and combined onto blank pages; it's about how it's scattered throughout the material and not just occasionally.

 

I suspect you are right. Thanks to mommymilkies, I realized these remarks were part of why I couldn't understand what she was saying:

 

Mergath, on 19 Oct 2013 - 1:22 PM, said:snapback.png

Defensive, much?  

 

 

Mergath, on 19 Oct 2013 - 8:13 PM, said:snapback.png

:001_rolleyes:  I take it you're involved with sales for ToG? 

 

 

And much like the "scattered" references you refer to they made it impossible for me to focus; it was just too much of a kerfuffle for me. 

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Wow, there is a lot of good information in this thread. I appreciate being able to read different views of curriculum. The only reason I am on these forums is to glean info from others who have tried things and read their opinions so even if yours and mine do not match, arent they still valuable?

 

That being said, I prefer a secular curriculum. We are Christian, but as Jehovah's Witnesses many of our bible beliefs do not match that of many other christian doctrines. I'm anxious to see if this could be used by us easily. This is our first year as homeschoolers. I am teaching a fifth grader and 2nd grader and we just started SOTW volume 1.  Im not sure if I should get YR1 Unit 2 so I can compare it to what we are doing coming up, or if I should go ahead and try Yr2 Unit 1?

 

I hadn't even heard of TOG before since we are so new to this whole thing but it seems to be very well received so I want to look into it. Thank you for the all the info from both sides.

 

Personally if you already have materials ready to go for Y1U2, I'd get something further out. To really save money I'd purchase for next year or anything you don't have in hand for this year. 

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Personally if you already have materials ready to go for Y1U2, I'd get something further out. To really save money I'd purchase for next year or anything you don't have in hand for this year. 

 

 

This sounds logical. I was thinking I might want to be able to compare but just having some things laid out for next year sounds like a better plan.

 

Also, I wanted to say that I'm glad this board pointed me in that direction. Even if I were to stick with something else, their bookshelf central page lists many books I would not have known to look for that I think will help my current plan as well. 

 

 

 

 

 

ETA: Was trying to post from my Kindle with poor results. 

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Which means nothing for the fact that what is on my shelf is not very usable to me. From what Mergath wrote (who was quoting from the redesign and confirmed by others), the questions are extremely leading rather than a way of learning and discussing other faiths. Since you are very familiar with the redesign, perhaps you could tell me how they handle Orthodoxy and Catholicism...Charlemagne, Constantine, etc... Does TOG still have a Catholic section to their forums?

I'm not disputing about what you have on your shelf. I haven't seen the old TOG, but I've read enough about it to know that many people who weren't Reformed found it very difficult to work with. But, that's not really relevant to this thread because it's not what is being sold now. I don't think it is difficult at all for any sort of Christian to use. I do agree it would be considerably more difficult for someone of another faith or no faith to use, but as was mentioned, the student pages are made to be able to manipulate to take questions off or add to, and the Church History subject is obviously not required.

 

Looking though the first two weeks of year two, which is where Orthodoxy is taught, and week four, which is where Charlemagne is covered, I pulled out the relevant information below. Yes, they have a Catholic/Orthodox board on their forums, but their forums are pretty dead. There are Yahoo groups for Orthodox and Catholic TOG users.

 

Year 2 week 1.

 

Resource specifically on Orthodoxy for Rhetoric level for six weeks: "Faith in the Byzantine World" by Mary B. Cunningham.

 

Dialectic history questions include (Rhetoric questions are very similar, but more detailed):

1. Who was Constantine? When and where did he establish a new capital city for the Roman Empire? (Teacher's Notes say: key figure in dwindling days of Roman Empire; first Christian Roman emperor; moved capital and shifted influence to Byzantium; called for and presided at council of Nicea which condemned Arianism and produced Nicene Creed).

2. What is Arianism? Which church council declared that Arianism was heretical? (TN say: early theological view taught by Arius that rejected that the trinity were equal, etc.)

 

Dialectic activity sheet has icon of Leo I.

 

Rhetoric Church History questions include:

3. What is the origin of the word "pope?" (TN say: from papa, used of early bishops to express fatherly care of their flocks)

4. Summarize the stages by which the Bishop of Rome was established as the primary bishop up to Bishop Leo's time. (TN say: bishops of Rome always honored above others; church structure in 3rd and 4th centuries saw important developments in some bishops having authority over others and in authority of church councils; Theodosius said bishop of Constantinople second only to bishop of Rome; Orthodox churches became less independent of government/politics in the East while in the West, the weakness of Roman Empire led to growing independence of Roman bishop; Leo cements supremacy and authority.)

5. What does your family believe about the papacy? (TN say: "Answers will vary.")

6. Why has the role of the pope been so hotly contested by Christians down through history? (TN say: Roman Catholics still believe in supremacy of papacy; Protestants do not believe there is scriptural basis for it)

7. What do Roman Catholics believe about the role of the pope and why? (TN say: quote from Matthew 16:18 and that RCs believe it was instituted by Jesus and represents an unbroken line of authority back to Peter.)

 

They are also asked to research Arianism and its effects on Germanic tribes converting to Christianity. (TN also include scripture refuting Arianism)

 

The philosophy for week one uses an imagined conversation with Augustine of Hippo. (TN has World Book article on Augustine)

 

Teacher notes include World Book articles on Constantine, Arianism, the Nicene Councils and the Nicene Creed, and Saint Jerome.

 

Year 2 week 2

 

Upper grammar fine arts activities include making a model icon and includes information form World Book that icons "are painted according to rules established by church authorities and are intended to convey the heavenly glory of the holy subjects portrayed."

 

Dialectic Church History includes these note to students: "In chapters 12 and 13, you will doubtless find several strong biases on Kuiper's part, in favor of the Western Roman Church as opposed to Eastern churches, and against monasticism. Please be sure to discuss these strong statements with your teacher, so that she can give you balancing perspectives." and "Note that this author is not interested in relating details about the doctrine or course of Eastern Orthodox churches past the split of Christianity in 1054."

 

Rhetoric history questions include:

Research icons (TN say: from the Greek for "image"; iconoclast controversy: Leo III and others said they were graven images while others said "Christians had long had visual representations, and that, since God the Father had clothed his perfect Son in flesh, having an image of the Son could not be wrong.")

2. What role did the emperor of Byzantium play in the Eastern Church? (TN say: ecclesiastical and secular power)

3. After answering the above question, evaluate the Byzantine view of the emperor biblically. Your primary text for this will be found in Romans 13, but feel free to bring in other Scriptures in support of your position. (TN say: "As Romans 13 teaches, rulers are established by God in their secular authority. All authority must ultimately come from and represent God's absolute authority. Thus, it is not unreasonable to understand the Emperor as a representative of God's authority." ... "Note: Your student may be very critical towards the relationship between the Church and State in Byzantium. If so, be sure to point out that, though Eastern Orthodoxy was traditionally tied to the government, Eastern Orthodoxy itself has endured beyond the kingdom of Byzantium. Even after the fall of Constantinople in 1453 to the expansive Turks, the Eastern Church continued to endure.")

 

Rhetoric church history includes an optional chapter on the separation of the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church. Students are asked to discuss the differences between the two, causes for the split, and where Orthodoxy is strongest today.

 

Again, student pages include several icons, this time of Christ.

 

World book articles include Byzantine Art, Saint Patrick, Saint Bede, Saint Augustine of Canterbury, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and the Papacy up to the Church Schism.

 

 

Year 2 week 4

 

Dialectic history questions include (Rhetoric history question is similar):

5. Discuss the connections between Charlemagne and the Roman Church. (TN say: Leo III appealed to him in a time of need and he responded willingly; Leo responded by crowning him "Augustus"; his "action was symbolically important: it denied the authority of the Byzantine emperors, and set a precedent for a papal role in determination, authentication, and transfer of royal or imperial power.") (Rhetoric History TN adds that the pope took this authority from the forged "Donation of Constantine").

 

Rhetoric Church History questions are also about Charlemagne and the church. (TN answers say: it was popularly asserted that Charlemagne had restored the Christian Roman Empire; the idea of a pope crowning the king drew upon Augustine's "City of God"; he was not the first crowned by a pope, his father had also been; the pope took an interest in who was king as he needed protection from the Lombards; results: hastened the separation of Greek and Latin churches, created Papal States, and the ritual anointing provided kings with religious sanction but over time created tension as religious authorities used this as a means of control and the church and emerging nation-states struggled for centuries over who should have ultimate authority.)

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I'm not disputing about what you have on your shelf. I haven't seen the old TOG, but I've read enough about it to know that many people who weren't Reformed found it very difficult to work with. But, that's not really relevant to this thread because it's not what is being sold now. I don't think it is difficult at all for any sort of Christian to use. I do agree it would be considerably more difficult for someone of another faith or no faith to use, but as was mentioned, the student pages are made to be able to manipulate to take questions off or add to, and the Church History subject is obviously not required.

 

Looking though the first two weeks of year two, which is where Orthodoxy is taught, and week four, which is where Charlemagne is covered, I pulled out the relevant information below. Yes, they have a Catholic/Orthodox board on their forums, but their forums are pretty dead. There are Yahoo groups for Orthodox and Catholic TOG users.

 

Year 2 week 1.

 

Resource specifically on Orthodoxy for Rhetoric level for six weeks: "Faith in the Byzantine World" by Mary B. Cunningham.

 

Dialectic history questions include (Rhetoric questions are very similar, but more detailed):

1. Who was Constantine? When and where did he establish a new capital city for the Roman Empire? (Teacher's Notes say: key figure in dwindling days of Roman Empire; first Christian Roman emperor; moved capital and shifted influence to Byzantium; called for and presided at council of Nicea which condemned Arianism and produced Nicene Creed).

2. What is Arianism? Which church council declared that Arianism was heretical? (TN say: early theological view taught by Arius that rejected that the trinity were equal, etc.)

 

Dialectic activity sheet has icon of Leo I.

 

Rhetoric Church History questions include:

3. What is the origin of the word "pope?" (TN say: from papa, used of early bishops to express fatherly care of their flocks)

4. Summarize the stages by which the Bishop of Rome was established as the primary bishop up to Bishop Leo's time. (TN say: bishops of Rome always honored above others; church structure in 3rd and 4th centuries saw important developments in some bishops having authority over others and in authority of church councils; Theodosius said bishop of Constantinople second only to bishop of Rome; Orthodox churches became less independent of government/politics in the East while in the West, the weakness of Roman Empire led to growing independence of Roman bishop; Leo cements supremacy and authority.)

5. What does your family believe about the papacy? (TN say: "Answers will vary.")

6. Why has the role of the pope been so hotly contested by Christians down through history? (TN say: Roman Catholics still believe in supremacy of papacy; Protestants do not believe there is scriptural basis for it)

7. What do Roman Catholics believe about the role of the pope and why? (TN say: quote from Matthew 16:18 and that RCs believe it was instituted by Jesus and represents an unbroken line of authority back to Peter.)

 

They are also asked to research Arianism and its effects on Germanic tribes converting to Christianity. (TN also include scripture refuting Arianism)

 

The philosophy for week one uses an imagined conversation with Augustine of Hippo. (TN has World Book article on Augustine)

 

Teacher notes include World Book articles on Constantine, Arianism, the Nicene Councils and the Nicene Creed, and Saint Jerome.

 

Year 2 week 2

 

Upper grammar fine arts activities include making a model icon and includes information form World Book that icons "are painted according to rules established by church authorities and are intended to convey the heavenly glory of the holy subjects portrayed."

 

Dialectic Church History includes these note to students: "In chapters 12 and 13, you will doubtless find several strong biases on Kuiper's part, in favor of the Western Roman Church as opposed to Eastern churches, and against monasticism. Please be sure to discuss these strong statements with your teacher, so that she can give you balancing perspectives." and "Note that this author is not interested in relating details about the doctrine or course of Eastern Orthodox churches past the split of Christianity in 1054."

 

Rhetoric history questions include:

Research icons (TN say: from the Greek for "image"; iconoclast controversy: Leo III and others said they were graven images while others said "Christians had long had visual representations, and that, since God the Father had clothed his perfect Son in flesh, having an image of the Son could not be wrong.")

2. What role did the emperor of Byzantium play in the Eastern Church? (TN say: ecclesiastical and secular power)

3. After answering the above question, evaluate the Byzantine view of the emperor biblically. Your primary text for this will be found in Romans 13, but feel free to bring in other Scriptures in support of your position. (TN say: "As Romans 13 teaches, rulers are established by God in their secular authority. All authority must ultimately come from and represent God's absolute authority. Thus, it is not unreasonable to understand the Emperor as a representative of God's authority." ... "Note: Your student may be very critical towards the relationship between the Church and State in Byzantium. If so, be sure to point out that, though Eastern Orthodoxy was traditionally tied to the government, Eastern Orthodoxy itself has endured beyond the kingdom of Byzantium. Even after the fall of Constantinople in 1453 to the expansive Turks, the Eastern Church continued to endure.")

 

Rhetoric church history includes an optional chapter on the separation of the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church. Students are asked to discuss the differences between the two, causes for the split, and where Orthodoxy is strongest today.

 

Again, student pages include several icons, this time of Christ.

 

World book articles include Byzantine Art, Saint Patrick, Saint Bede, Saint Augustine of Canterbury, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and the Papacy up to the Church Schism.

 

 

Year 2 week 4

 

Dialectic history questions include (Rhetoric history question is similar):

5. Discuss the connections between Charlemagne and the Roman Church. (TN say: Leo III appealed to him in a time of need and he responded willingly; Leo responded by crowning him "Augustus"; his "action was symbolically important: it denied the authority of the Byzantine emperors, and set a precedent for a papal role in determination, authentication, and transfer of royal or imperial power.") (Rhetoric History TN adds that the pope took this authority from the forged "Donation of Constantine").

 

Rhetoric Church History questions are also about Charlemagne and the church. (TN answers say: it was popularly asserted that Charlemagne had restored the Christian Roman Empire; the idea of a pope crowning the king drew upon Augustine's "City of God"; he was not the first crowned by a pope, his father had also been; the pope took an interest in who was king as he needed protection from the Lombards; results: hastened the separation of Greek and Latin churches, created Papal States, and the ritual anointing provided kings with religious sanction but over time created tension as religious authorities used this as a means of control and the church and emerging nation-states struggled for centuries over who should have ultimate authority.)

 

Thank you, Kathryn. I'm sorry about earlier. I don't know what it going on with me. I'm stepping back a bit. Thank you for answering my question.

 

As to what I was going off of, yes, my general view of the curricula is based off of the early years, the author, the groups that were heavily involved, etc (in those cases, Reformed Dominionist is accurate)...however, I was basing most of my posts off of what Mergath quoted, which came from the recent edition. There were a lot of leading questions that would make me livid.

 

That said, I did find the Yahoo group and requested to join last night. My membership hasn't been accepted yet. I don't know if it's slow over there or not, but we'll see. It would be nice to see something more neutral.

 

To the person that said that they could easily change questions for their students, are they saying that they can change the content within the files? Or do they have to retype everything into another file? How much is dedicated to the "Christian foundings" of the US? Basically, I don't want a whitewashed Protestant history and that is what concerns me. I know I will have to toss out most of the "plays" because they are to direct students a certain direction (Mergath made reference to one as well, so apparently they are still there). I'm wondering how much has to be changed or cut.

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Dominionist?  Really?

 

 

However, I've said on many threads in the past that I don't think TOG is particularly reformed, mostly just generic Protestant even their church history choices are not reformed. I've asked on threads when people claim it is reformed to provide me with proof, but thus far no one has provided that. 

 

If you are Catholic or RC, you'll want to switch out bios and church histories. However, the two books I linked above, I'd leave in. The Civil War book's only "hero" is the RC European theology on slavery (Southern RC wrote the same stuff about slavery that other Southern denominations did). So that would definitely be a keeper for a RC/Orthodox minded family. BUT don't expect anyone but your oldest children to be reading that. 

 

If you know enough about the author, her church associations, and many of the conversations with those that were amoungst the first customers of hers, you would know. I don't have to link to anything...I'm not concerned about personal references. I was one of those people, I taught at a co-op, I was Reformed, etc. 

 

Not worried about the slavery issue...I've taught Civil War history and I've got that pretty well covered from all sides with books that probably aren't listed in TOG ;)

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Thank you, Kathryn. I'm sorry about earlier. I don't know what it going on with me. I'm stepping back a bit. Thank you for answering my question.

 

As to what I was going off of, yes, my general view of the curricula is based off of the early years, the author, the groups that were heavily involved, etc (in those cases, Reformed Dominionist is accurate)...however, I was basing most of my posts off of what Mergath quoted, which came from the recent edition. There were a lot of leading questions that would make me livid.

 

That said, I did find the Yahoo group and requested to join last night. My membership hasn't been accepted yet. I don't know if it's slow over there or not, but we'll see. It would be nice to see something more neutral.

 

To the person that said that they could easily change questions for their students, are they saying that they can change the content within the files? Or do they have to retype everything into another file? How much is dedicated to the "Christian foundings" of the US? Basically, I don't want a whitewashed Protestant history and that is what concerns me. I know I will have to toss out most of the "plays" because they are to direct students a certain direction (Mergath made reference to one as well, so apparently they are still there). I'm wondering how much has to be changed or cut.

 

You're welcome. No need to apologize. As I said, I agree that I don't think it would be so easy for a non-Christian to adapt, though I'm sure it *could* be done. There is the same kind of tendency I've seen in other Christian curricula to prove other religions "wrong." I do feel that most of the resources themselves are much less one-sided and evangelical than what I've seen in other Christian curricula, although the notes do speak of winning others to Christ.

 

All of the student pages are in regular PDF files that can be cut/copied/pasted as opposed to the rest of the curriculum which uses the secure LockLizard technology so that it can't be manipulated.

 

As to the "Christian foundings" of the US, I see absolutely nothing. We are currently using both lower and upper grammar (so, although I read the notes, I haven't read the dialectic and rhetoric books) and we are in week 14 of year 2. We've covered Columbus, other early explorers, and are now on conquistadors and the native peoples of the Americas. I can tell you that my son is not at all a fan of Columbus just from what he read. Looking ahead (which means that I've just spent far too much time reading the "General Information for All Grades" as well as the dialectic and rhetoric history questions for the whole rest of the year), they say that with Plymouth, Englishmen who wanted to make money financed the expedition, but a "sizeable number" (later on the page they specify 41 Puritan Separatists and 61 other Englishmen) of those who emigrated went for religious reasons and describe the situation in England. That's pretty much it for the religious motivations of the colonists. A quote from week 22: "Each new wave of immigrants brought special talents and viewpoints to America and contributed much to the rich and varied culture, opinions, and growth of this great nation." Looking further ahead to the Revolutionary War and founding of the new nation, I see not a single word about the religion of anyone.

 

I can't really speak to the plays in the philosophy section because I don't read them. I read the first few in year one, but found the format annoying.

 

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So, when the word "Dominionist" is used, do we mean that they believe that the US is an ordained-by-God "Christian" nation, or do we mean that they believe in establishing a Theocracy and returning to Old Testament law?  I disagree with both viewpoints, but find the first much easier to work with than the second.

 

And I'm hearing that the earlier biases have been much edited in the Redesign, which is good.  I'm just curious what the author's viewpoint really is/was.  I'm sure it's possible that their views have mellowed over time, which is probably true for many.  Sometimes you have to wear a certain belief for awhile before you discover it's holes.

 

Thanks for any help clarifying.

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So, when the word "Dominionist" is used, do we mean that they believe that the US is an ordained-by-God "Christian" nation, or do we mean that they believe in establishing a Theocracy and returning to Old Testament law?  I disagree with both viewpoints, but find the first much easier to work with than the second.

 

And I'm hearing that the earlier biases have been much edited in the Redesign, which is good.  I'm just curious what the author's viewpoint really is/was.  I'm sure it's possible that their views have mellowed over time, which is probably true for many.  Sometimes you have to wear a certain belief for awhile before you discover it's holes.

 

Thanks for any help clarifying.

 

Mostly the latter, but with the former playing the role to lead the way.

 

I'm glad to hear that it has been toned down...hopefully, WAY down. I was Reformed when we ordered the classic, back then it was just after the "testing" period and being opened up to everyone. There was a lot of talk about the author, people that had spoken with the author, I think even one that had been one of the testers...so I remember hearing a bit about the author and her beliefs. And yes, we all can mellow or change. I'm not certain how much theirs have or haven't. 

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