WISC IV results and a question

[alef]

I just got the results of a psychoeducational evaluation for one of my children, and was surprised at the huge spread in percentile rank between the highest score (working memory) and the lowest (processing speed) the difference in percentiles was 85 points; scores on the other two sections were closer to the high end. I'm hoping to talk to the psychologist soon, but in the meantime I'm curious to know if anyone has seen such a large spread in scores, or knows anything about low processing speed?

[kbutton]

I think it's more common for both processing speed and working memory to be low than for one to be low. My son had huge discrepancy (50 points, not percentiles), but it was his processing speed that was the top score and working memory the lowest. He was retested a year later (long story), and they were both low that time. In that instance, the tester used the GAI (General Abilities Index, I think), to calculate his total score. It scores the test without the processing and working memory scores if those are low since they can artificially lower the overall IQ score. My understanding is that working memory is highly dependent on being relaxed, not stressed etc. and that processing speed can be lowered by things like visual problems and motor skill problems. And some kids are just slower processors--it's not all that unusual. Also, I think the spread in actual points (not percentages) is what the testers look at for discrepancies. Any subtest discrepancies 20 points or more are usually considered unusual and something to investigate. One possibility is that your child was tired and just mentally checked out for that portion of the test. It happens! The tester should be able to tell if that was the case or not. I think processing speed is one factor the tester will look at to determine if attention issues are a possible problem, but I am not 100% sure on that.

 

If one or both of the scores is low enough in relation to the other scores, sometimes you can get the evaluator to document that your child needs extra test time and things like that. It may not seem like a big deal to a homeschooler to ask if this is necessary, but if your child goes on to take any standardized tests (such as the SAT), it can be helpful to have this documented. I guess it's hard to get those accommodations without a paper trail.

[alef]

I think it's more common for both processing speed and working memory to be low than for one to be low. My son had huge discrepancy (50 points, not percentiles), but it was his processing speed that was the top score and working memory the lowest. He was retested a year later (long story), and they were both low that time. In that instance, the tester used the GAI (General Abilities Index, I think), to calculate his total score. It scores the test without the processing and working memory scores if those are low since they can artificially lower the overall IQ score. My understanding is that working memory is highly dependent on being relaxed, not stressed etc. and that processing speed can be lowered by things like visual problems and motor skill problems. And some kids are just slower processors--it's not all that unusual. Also, I think the spread in actual points (not percentages) is what the testers look at for discrepancies. Any subtest discrepancies 20 points or more are usually considered unusual and something to investigate. One possibility is that your child was tired and just mentally checked out for that portion of the test. It happens! The tester should be able to tell if that was the case or not. I think processing speed is one factor the tester will look at to determine if attention issues are a possible problem, but I am not 100% sure on that.

 

If one or both of the scores is low enough in relation to the other scores, sometimes you can get the evaluator to document that your child needs extra test time and things like that. It may not seem like a big deal to a homeschooler to ask if this is necessary, but if your child goes on to take any standardized tests (such as the SAT), it can be helpful to have this documented. I guess it's hard to get those accommodations without a paper trail.

 

There was a 43 point spread between the standard scores. The spread between PSI and the next lowest score was 30 points.

[TheReader]

My son's scores are all over the place. His lowest section, he scored as bottom 5th percentile. His highest section he scored as top 95th percentile. His other stuff was around middle/average, some highs, some lows. For him it wasn't working memory & processing speed, those were both low. 

 

We got a really detailed report from the psychologist, which helped me understand things much better. Hopefully that will be the case for you as well. As for low processing speed, it's a bear. I would think the subtests will help you out; for my son, we had to discern what method works best (ie, visual processing, auditory processing, etc.) and offer multiple input methods when we teach him something. We do a lot of different therapy stuff, but i get mixed up which is targeting which -- some of the things that are good for him for processing speed/working memory are flashcards (just drilling him naming objects quickly; this is not to learn, this is to exercise that part of his brain); simon says and similar; category games (such as "I'm going to grandma's and I"m taking a ______" -- we change up where we are going, and name things that fit the category, taking turns repeating back the list); matching/memory games; hidden pictures/word finds/etc; and other things. 

 

For learning sessions, I make sure to present the information orally and visually, so he gets input in both directions/formats, limit distractions (both visual distractions, by covering unneeded parts of the page, and audio, by providing a quiet environment); make sure he makes eye contact/can see me when I give instructions; give instructions in short chunks rather than big long lists; read small sections at a time, with time to discuss/process as we go; lots of breaks in his day so his brain can rest (we play board games, card games, other things that work to his strengths as a way to "rest" and reset after periods of learning, or else we do active play for a short time). 

 

If you have specific questions, I can dig up his report and see what things were mentioned specifically under processing speed, but as for the big gap, very familiar with having them. One of his gaps in scores was something like fewer than 0.3% of kids his age would have that large a gap between Score X and Score Y. His "most common" gap was such that still fewer than 10% of kids his age would have that size gap between those two sets of scores (his edu-psych gave this comparison of each score/subscore against the other, very interesting). 

[wapiti]

Look at the subtest scores - IIRC, Symbol Search involves visual scanning and tracking.  Coding involves more motor.

Edited September 15, 2016 by wapiti

[alef]

Oh yes, two of my kids have that exact combination, at least according to their old test results , WM at the 98th-99th percentile, PS much lower - I forgot what the overall PS was, but Coding was the problem, in the single-digit percentiles for both.  (One is due to be re-tested soon, the other one's WM score dropped in his most recent testing due to emotional issues of the moment.)  

 

This is not to say that I know much about processing speed - it's still a bit of a mystery to me.  For the most part, handwriting is the biggest problem in our house due to processing speed - they can do it neatly with time and effort but sloppy without time and they are often VERY reluctant to make the effort write if they can avoid it, e.g., trying to do wayyy to much math in their heads.  The top recommendations from the psych include typing and avoiding timed tests.  

 

What I really need is for them to learn LaTeX or for there to be something simpler for writing math on the computer.  Yesterday one of them was playing around on Khan Academy and I noticed that he could "draw" the math on the screen.... still, it wasn't exactly neat.

 

Look at the subtest scores - IIRC, Symbol Search involves visual scanning and tracking.  Coding involves more motor.

 

dd does try to do too much math in her head, I wouldn't have thought to correlate that. She does well with math and likes it, but doesn't like writing it down. The scaled score for Coding was 7, and for Symbol Search 6, I don't really know what those mean. She also had a low score on Picture Completion (7) though her other perceptual reasoning scores were high.

[wapiti]

dd does try to do too much math in her head, I wouldn't have thought to correlate that. She does well with math and likes it, but doesn't like writing it down. The scaled score for Coding was 7, and for Symbol Search 6, I don't really know what those mean. She also had a low score on Picture Completion (7) though her other perceptual reasoning scores were high.

 

With that low of a symbol search score, I'd definitely consider whether there might be a developmental vision issue (e.g., tracking) if you haven't already ruled out vision issues with a covd optometrist.

 

The scaled scores can be a little confusing; I prefer to focus on percentiles myself.

 

Not wanting to write down math is purely a motor thing in our house - takes too much effort.

[PeterPan]

I'll just 2nd wapiti's comment and say I think a vision exam with a developmental optometrist is good for anyone and especially kids who have things going on.  It's very common for vision to be part of the mix, and it's something you can actually improve.  COVD is where you find a developmental optometrist.  You can do a regular exam and just ask them to *screen* for things, or they have a full developmental vision exam ($$ but worth it if the screening indicates it's warranted).  If you do just that basic exam and ask them to screen, you're at least getting the conversation going.

 

TheReader--Did your ds's scores turn up anything for word recall to letter cues?  I was wondering what your psych said to do for that.  I think some of the category activities you described would help.  I've just been trying to understand that one better.  

[TheReader]

I'll just 2nd wapiti's comment and say I think a vision exam with a developmental optometrist is good for anyone and especially kids who have things going on.  It's very common for vision to be part of the mix, and it's something you can actually improve.  COVD is where you find a developmental optometrist.  You can do a regular exam and just ask them to *screen* for things, or they have a full developmental vision exam ($$ but worth it if the screening indicates it's warranted).  If you do just that basic exam and ask them to screen, you're at least getting the conversation going.

 

TheReader--Did your ds's scores turn up anything for word recall to letter cues?  I was wondering what your psych said to do for that.  I think some of the category activities you described would help.  I've just been trying to understand that one better.  

 

hmmm, can you explain better about word recall/letter cues? I'm not sure what that is....

 

He scored very low on something called letter-word identification and on word-attack, where he manipulates the sounds of the word  (no visual component to that portion). Is that the part you mean? 

 

For letter/word stuff, we are supposed to: 

-use Earobics for the phonemic awareness stuff

 

-label household, commonly used things that he interacts with, so he begins to associate print words with the objects

 

-introduce sight words, ~4 at a time, according to the Dolch (sp??) list

 

-create a word wall in his room of the sight words as we add them

 

-use word graphs (4x4 grid with 1 word in each space, each word on each row, but vary the order) and have him read L to R across the grid, row by row. Once he reaches 85% mastery on a word we can add a new word (then if he hits 100% mastery, drop the 1st word, etc...)

 

-RAN practice -- flashcards, colors, numbers, letters, objects, etc. I vary this up as much as I can. I use the Usborne 1st 1000 Words book, and we point to each object, he names them (they frame the main picture), then we use it for hidden picture exercise, too. Or I point to things around the room for him to name. Or I have him look around, name things, and I go to that thing. Or sometimes I name them and have him run to them. 

 

-categories -- I'm supposed to give him a category and have him name as many as he can in 2 mins. He struggles with this so I play games. Sometimes  I give him 4 words and ask which doesn't belong. Sometimes I pull flashcards that could go together and have him put them into categories. Sometimes we do the "I'm going to grandma's and I'm taking a ___" and I change the "grandma's" to things like "the beach" or "the grocery store" or "the doctor's office" or "the movies" or whatever. 

 

-word attack -- we flip around compound words (what is sandbox w/o the sand? what is it w/o the box?), then words but drop a syllable (teacher w/o the -er), then sounds (stop w/o the s-, or w/o the -p), then swap (what is stop if you put h- instead of st-) I do this orally, and then we do it with letter tiles for the ones that he knows so far (very very few)

 

-another way to do the word attack with a visual, I cut a hole in index cards, wrote the ending of a word on the card, and wrote different beginning letters/letter sounds on each space of a paint chip; slide the paint strip/paint chip through the index card, and he identifies the word as it goes through. So you might have -at on the card, then c, b, h, f, m, s on the paint strip. So then he reads "cat" "bat" "mat", etc.. as I pull the strip through, one at a time. 

 

-have him tell stories, type them, then he reads them back. When he has 75% mastery of the sight words that we are working on at the time, then we do a new story. 

 

I have no idea if any of this is helpful, not sure I understand the category you're asking about. If you can clarify some, I can check his report. I don't mind sharing her suggestions, at all. 

[alef]

I'll just 2nd wapiti's comment and say I think a vision exam with a developmental optometrist is good for anyone and especially kids who have things going on.  It's very common for vision to be part of the mix, and it's something you can actually improve.  COVD is where you find a developmental optometrist.  You can do a regular exam and just ask them to *screen* for things, or they have a full developmental vision exam ($$ but worth it if the screening indicates it's warranted).  If you do just that basic exam and ask them to screen, you're at least getting the conversation going.

 

TheReader--Did your ds's scores turn up anything for word recall to letter cues?  I was wondering what your psych said to do for that.  I think some of the category activities you described would help.  I've just been trying to understand that one better.  

 

Would you suspect developmental vision problems in the absence of reading problems? She is a strong reader and has been since she was age six or so.

[PeterPan]

Would you suspect developmental vision problems in the absence of reading problems? She is a strong reader and has been since she was age six or so.

Yes you can have vision problems and still read well.  My dd did.  I just think it's a good thing to *screen* for and eliminate as an issue.  That regular old vision appt. with our optometrist runs around $60-75.  They're going to check eye health, acuity, all the normal things, and then they can *screen* for the developmental stuff.  I have no clue why regular optometrists aren't taught/required to do this, as it seems so OBVIOUS that some kids do have developmental vision problems.  Whatever.  Point is, for the same price as your regular doc you get more info. 

 

Word recall to cues and categories.  It was part of the verbal testing the doc did, but I don't think it was part of the IQ but a different test.  To categories she was awesome (because she could visualize), but to letter cues she was 5th percentile, wowsers.  I want to do something for it, but I'm a little afraid of teaching to the test and not really solving the problem, if that makes sense?

[TheReader]

yea, I'm not sure. My son with this testing is 8, and I see  your dd is 14, so maybe just a different level of the testing.....

 

Would games like Scattergories, where she has to do a category + a beginning letter, help? You could not use the timer, or use 2x the timer (ie, it gets flipped once), and just do it as a game once/week, or daily, or however often she needs, if her writing ability is there (no dysgraphia). Or do it orally if that is better; less "game-y" that way, but would get the practice in. That would give  you plenty of variation, too, without you having to think up everything on your own. I might be off track on that, but that's the kind of thing I would do, if I am understanding the concept. 

 

I don't think of these exercises as teaching to the test so much as exercising the brain, like strength training for the brain. I've noticed a lot of improvement in the past year by addressing these things; it carries over to a lot of his learning. Hope that helps!

[EKS]

Would you suspect developmental vision problems in the absence of reading problems? She is a strong reader and has been since she was age six or so.

 

My son started reading at 2yo and was reading at a 2nd grade level at age 3.  The reason I suspected a vision issue was that he didn't progress beyond that for over a year.  When I took him in when he was 4yo, he ended up needing glasses.  The doctor wanted to wait to see if VT was needed (or if just the glasses were sufficient) and after a year, the vision stuff still had not resolved, so we proceeded with VT.  After two months, he was reading chapter books.

 

So, yes, a child can be a strong reader and still need VT.

[alef]

My son started reading at 2yo and was reading at a 2nd grade level at age 3.  The reason I suspected a vision issue was that he didn't progress beyond that for over a year.  When I took him in when he was 4yo, he ended up needing glasses.  The doctor wanted to wait to see if VT was needed (or if just the glasses were sufficient) and after a year, the vision stuff still had not resolved, so we proceeded with VT.  After two months, he was reading chapter books.

 

So, yes, a child can be a strong reader and still need VT.

 

Can someone explain to me or give me a link that explains what vision therapy is? What kind of therapy work do they have children do? This is not something I have experience with.

Thank you!

[EKS]

Can someone explain to me or give me a link that explains what vision therapy is? What kind of therapy work do they have children do? This is not something I have experience with.

Thank you!

 

Here you go:  http://www.covd.org/

[alef]

Here you go:  http://www.covd.org/

 

Thank you EKS.

 

On a side note, OhElizabeth asked me in another thread if I had done any therapy or work targeting working memory as that was dd's highest score. I haven't, but it did make me wonder if musical training increases working memory (dd plays violin); a google search turned up some interesting research reports:

 

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/memory-medic/201007/music-training-helps-learning-memory

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/10/early-music-lessons-have-longtime-benefits/

http://www.parentingscience.com/music-and-intelligence.html

 

Working memory improvements do seem to be one of the benefits of music training for children. 

[wapiti]

Working memory improvements do seem to be one of the benefits of music training for children. 

 

Thanks, that's very interesting!!  My boys were taking piano back in first grade when they had those very high working memory scores.  Makes me want to make them start up again now that they're older...

[PeterPan]

Well y'all are really on the ball with your connections!  That's really nifty that music practice could up working memory.  (or conversely, it explains why kids with low working memory are struggling and shy away?)  

 

On the VT, I hope you understand I was NOT saying you need VT.  I was only saying that the docs who *do* VT are a cut above, understand developmental vision, and can screen to make sure that's not an issue.  It's good for anyone to get their vision checked, and you might as well get that extra screening and have that discussion, since it's sometimes part of the mix.

[Tiramisu]

We had WISC scores all over the place. I asked here for help and people pointed out to me that the scores that were really low were all dependent of visual processing. She was such a great reader with excellent comprehension so I refused to believe there was a visual processing problem. A few years later we went to a COVD doc and then had more testing with a neuropsych. Both found visual problems. It turns out she had visual-motor issues, too, and I never knew it. These affected her WISC scores and explained strange discrepancies, like why different subtests which were supposed to measure the same things had wildly different scores. I think the visual and visual-motor are worth looking into. FWIW, my dd's with visual-motor issues both have bad handwriting. The one who has been tested by the developmental optometrist and neuropsych is also a bit clumsy. The other, who was only tested by an OT, can't always get the right words out smoothly. These are things you may see in real life that could be clues to the reason for the low processing score.